English Language Learners

Anonymous

00:55

the question that was asked of him is okay

Anonymous

In another meaning: He did all that was asked of him.

Anonymous

Similarly: He did everything he was asked to.

Anonymous

So ask can certainly appear in the passive in a variety of constructions

Anonymous

But the person being asked is generally not given as the complement of to

Anonymous

When to is present, it's generally an infinitive marker rather than a preposition

Anonymous

01:01

Though, you can for example ask someone to dinner

Anonymous

To my ear, "They asked the question to him" is thoroughly nonstandard

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Are you one of these learners? Have you spent any significant amount of time living among native speakers of English?

Damkerng T.

02:26

@snailboat I definitely haven't spent any time living among native speakers, as you already know. :-)

@snailboat Isn't it strange (but true) that They asked him the question is acceptable but They asked the question to him is not (or marginal at best)?

Anonymous

02:51

Ah, I do think I remember talking about that before, but I couldn't remember—

Anonymous

I suppose a lot of learners are in that situation

Anonymous

Although you mentioned it as having disadvantages, I wonder if we might not also focus on potential advantages

Anonymous

And yes, ask doesn't participate in the dative alternation

Anonymous

To begin with, we might say you need to memorize which verbs are "dative verbs", but we can find patterns

Anonymous

It's usually said that these verbs are associated with caused motion or caused possession, or both

Anonymous

03:06

Levin breaks them down into three groups: give-type verbs (give, hand, lend, loan, rent, sell, ...), send-type verbs (send, mail, ship, ...), and throw-type verbs (fling, flip, kick, lob, slap, shoot, throw, toss, ...)

Anonymous

If you search online for this stuff you should be able to find some of the literature discussing it (it's hard for me to link to it from my phone, alas)

Anonymous

Ask doesn't fit into any of these categories

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes. Now I wonder what verbs are like ask.

Hello, snailboat!

(It looks like it's something opposite to suggest. We say They suggested to him this, not They suggest him this.)

@snailboat Generally, I think people think being around native speakers is definitely an advantage.

Finally, I'm now watching Gravity!

It's visual-rich, rather than dialogue-rich, I think.

The dialogues seem to be decent enough, though. And they are in space!

(I think I should've just said in orbit rather than in space.)

Anonymous

04:30

Oh, being around native speakers is a large and measurable advantage, generally speaking

Anonymous

For one thing, you tend to learn a lot more words! That's a measurable impact

Anonymous

There are all sorts of metrics I'm not prepared to list off the top of my head

Anonymous

But I think we can agree that it's obvious there are major advantages

Anonymous

I was thinking, though, that being around L1 speakers is also useful

Anonymous

After all, language learners are (at least) bilingual—they aren't becoming native speakers of their L2, so it makes sense to consider their total language system, not just to compare them against native speakers

Anonymous

04:34

The way I see it, I'm gradually becoming a better English writer, which is a plus in translating :-)

Anonymous

I do also have an interest in English linguistics, even if it isn't my focus

Anonymous

I've never seen Gravity

Anonymous

The last movie I saw in English was probably How to Train Your Dragon 2, and before that maybe Frozen

Anonymous

You've probably seen more English movies than I ever have :-) I'm not a big movie buff

CopperKettle

Good morning, @snailboat! Gravity is a good movie to see once.

Anonymous

04:46

Once and only once?

CopperKettle

Yes, It's a catastrophe movie, nothing more.

Anonymous

Oh, I'm not sure if I want to watch a catastrophe movie

Anonymous

Titanic was good, though

CopperKettle

My female cousing watched it a dozen of times.

Anonymous

It's interesting—in English the phrase "my female cousin" is usually overspecification

Anonymous

04:51

Unless her being female is salient

Anonymous

Whereas of course in many languages that sort of detail is obligatory (insert Roman Jakobson quote here)

CopperKettle

She is the daughter of my mother's brother. In Russian we call it something like a "sister twice-removed"

Anonymous

Typing on my phone makes me so lazy! I guess I'll type the whole quote: "Languages differ essentially in what they must convey and not in what they may convey."

Anonymous

My guess was that you were translating a gendered Russian term

CopperKettle

Yes, the Russian term has "sister". Or "brother twice-removed"

In English, this is "first cousin" but I don't know how to mark the sex on that.

In Russian, we must convey the gender.

Anonymous

04:58

You can add female as a modifier (before first), but it's somewhat unnatural unless her gender is salient in context

Anonymous

Since you don't have to specify it in English, people tend not to unless it's salient, which leads to the listener thinking that you're drawing attention to her gender specifically

Anonymous

Otherwise, you might just work the gender in later in the sentence or discourse: "My cousin, she liked that movie" (left dislocation)

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

Sorry if I'm belaboring the point a bit :-)

Anonymous

It's always interesting to me as part of translating, the corollaries of Jakobson's maxim

CopperKettle

05:02

No, it's okay. (0:

"I built a giant house of playing cards an hour ago" - this could be really an "achievement" situation, not "telic".

5

Q: "I built a giant house of playing cards an hour ago"

I built a giant house of playing cards an hour ago. Given that building it took many hours (say, three), does the sentence mean that: I finished building a giant house of playing cards an hour ago. or I started building a giant house of playing cards an hour ago. or something else?

I probably bungled the terminology a bit in my answer.

Anonymous

Can it really be an achievement? I think building usually takes time

Anonymous

The verb refers to that span of time (is durative) and in this case has a well-defined end point (is telic)

CopperKettle

Maybe in this situation it informs us only of the "punctual" moment of finishing the building.

I've offered one example: "I built 10 houses an hour ago" and said it was atelic, but native speakers corrected me in the comments, so I had to ditch it.

Anonymous

Hmm. Let's take a look

Anonymous

"I built ten houses an hour ago" sounds implausible, though perfectly natural and grammatical

CopperKettle

05:15

Because we imagine that the process took less than an hour, probably

"an hour ago" probably puts some constraint on duration

and I overlooked that.

BBL

Anonymous

Yes, the duration is probably relatively short

Anonymous

"I built houses an hour ago" is stranger, though, because without a specific number it seems atelic

Anonymous

So I might interpret that instead as "I was in the state in which building houses was something I did regularly, and though that state is now over I was still in that state only an hour ago." For example, if the speaker was a carpenter by trade an hour ago, but this is no longer true

Anonymous

05:30

But it's not a likely sentence to begin with

Anonymous

I think it's an accomplishment rather than an achievement—your answer looks good

Anonymous

05:56

I do think it's true that if you built a house of cards an hour ago, it probably didn't take too long

Anonymous

Build can be non-durative if it describes sonething that takes place in or nearly in an instant—for example, a video game in which a single click results in a structure being built

Anonymous

Darn you autocorrect—I expect it to fix sonething, but sadly it does not :-)

CopperKettle

09:03

@snailboat Thank you! That's exactly the interpretation proposed by one member in the comments to my answer.

@snailboat Heh. Be thankful that AI is not here yet. (0:

Good afternoon, @Hanaa!

Hanaa

Good afternoon@CopperKettle

abdelaziz maroc

09:20

Good Mornning

Hanaa

10:33

Good morning !

abdelaziz maroc

10:47

how are you *?

@Hanaa

Hanaa

Fine , praise be to Allah

3

How about u @abdelazizmaroc

Sorry for replying late. I was reading

abdelaziz maroc

no probleme

how old are you

?

Hanaa

11:04

@abdelazizmaroc what do you need english for?

abdelaziz maroc

I'm newbie in english

:/

I want to learn it

Hanaa

A ha

Good luck!

abdelaziz maroc

where are you from ?

Hanaa

11:48

From Algeria

Man_From_India

13:45

Here I found this line

books.google.co.in/…

Nothing could be less like a mere camp of tents pitched by Arabs.

does this sentence mean those camps are different and distinct?

Good evening @Hanaa

Hanaa

14:30

Good evening @Man_From_India

Man_From_India

Hi @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

Hi, @Man_From_India!

Man_From_India

@Hanaa How is your preparation for exam going?

Damkerng T.

Hello, everyone!

@Man_From_India Assuming a neutral context, I think they mean those camp of tents are minimal.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. do you mean they are very less in number?

Damkerng T.

14:39

I think they mean less as in humbleness or being minimalistic.

But it could mean something else, depending on context.

Man_From_India

I just had read that paragraph of that book. Only intention was to learn that phrase.

Damkerng T.

Nice! :-)

Man_From_India

But can't make much sense. The more I am looking at that paragraph, the more confused I am getting :-(

Damkerng T.

What's the full paragraph?

Man_From_India

This is the link

books.google.co.in/…

sometimes I think they misht also mean those tents are similar to other things :-(

Damkerng T.

14:48

Ahh... That page is unavailable for me.

Ilan

:)

hi

Man_From_India

:-(

Damkerng T.

Hi, @Ilan!

Ilan

how r u?

Man_From_India

@Ilan hello

Ilan

14:49

hi

Damkerng T.

Good! How are you?

Ilan

steam for the ears

:)

I did some assignment and instead of 150 words wrote 210!

that eat my time up

and I had no time to check my answer

"(

Damkerng T.

Isn't that good? I mean, 210 is more than enough.

Ahh

Ilan

it is bad

It says that I did not summarise but just wrote unneeded details

Damkerng T.

Here is my tip: spend the first two minutes planning what to write.

Ilan

14:52

What is the right form for 2/3 - two third or two thirds?

I spent 3 minutes to understand the pie charts

and still lost some features

Damkerng T.

If you mean it as a quantity, I think it's two thirds.

Ilan

uffff

thirds? ok

abdelaziz maroc

hello

Damkerng T.

Hello, @abdelazizmaroc!

@Man_From_India FWIW, that sentence reminds me of the saying "less is more".

abdelaziz maroc

how are you ?? @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

14:56

I'm fine. Thanks! How are you?

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. :-) but these kind of sentences are real hard. I mean that is what I feel about them :-(

Damkerng T.

Is it hard because of its structures or its vocabulary?

Man_From_India

structure :-(

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's just an unfamiliar topic for you.

Man_From_India

hmm yes that is...but I don't know where from will I learn such structures

Damkerng T.

14:59

What's the structure that you're having trouble with the most?

Man_From_India

like nothing could be less like

Damkerng T.

Does it help if you replace could be with is?

Man_From_India

and the other one that day we were discussing - not...any more than

that nima asked

that sentence was easy, and with simple logic I could understood it

Damkerng T.

nods -- I remember that you answered that question just fine!

abdelaziz maroc

I'm fine too

Man_From_India

15:02

@DamkerngT. No :-(

abdelaziz maroc

I want to learn english

con someone elp me

help me?

Man_From_India

sure...as far as I can

Damkerng T.

@abdelazizmaroc My idea about learning English is to use it as much as you can. :-)

Man_From_India

at what level you are

abdelaziz maroc

I'm newbie :/

i know a litle

i can't formule a good sentence

Man_From_India

15:05

and read a lot :-) not grammar, but read stories or what ever topic you like...then take the sentences and analyze them...if you face problem seek help from grammar book

and post questions here

it's time consuming, but good approach :-)

abdelaziz maroc

thanks @Man_From_India

how much of time i'll need ?

sorry if I commit some error :/

Man_From_India

depends on how much you can pick it :-)

I took a long time, years, still I am learning :-)

Damkerng T.

@abdelazizmaroc The less you worry (about your errors), the more you learn!

Man_From_India

Compared to other languages, I believe basic English is easier to learn.

abdelaziz maroc

me I know

French language

Damkerng T.

15:12

nods -- It's an odd language, easy to start, hard to master.

Nice!

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. nothing can be truer than this :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

@abdelazizmaroc I've heard that French people usually have an easier time with English (compared with people from other parts of the world).

Ilan

(reconnecting)

abdelaziz maroc

I'm from Morocoo

so Arabic is my native language

Damkerng T.

What is your first language?

Ahh... I see.

So you speak Arabic, and you can speak French. English will be easy for you, I'd say. :D

abdelaziz maroc

15:20

where are you from @DamkerngT.

I hope this

Damkerng T.

I'm a Bangkokian. I live in Thailand.

abdelaziz maroc

nice

Damkerng T.

Thanks. Morocco is a famous place as well!

abdelaziz maroc

yes there is a lot of monument

you are welecome to Morroco

any time

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

abdelaziz maroc

15:23

how can I speak it verry well

Damkerng T.

How long have you been learning English?

abdelaziz maroc

in school 5 years

Damkerng T.

@abdelazizmaroc Listen to native speakers. A lot!

abdelaziz maroc

thanks , i'll do

you can correct my sentences if you want

so like that i'll don't commit it again

Damkerng T.

nods

I'm sure you can recognize some of the errors you made.

Sometimes I simply call this kind of error "typo", even though it's not technically correct.

A quick example is "i'll don't commit", which I think you know that "i'll don't" is not correct.

abdelaziz maroc

15:28

thanks and what's the correct ?

Damkerng T.

I think you wanted to say "(so (that)) I won't make that error again".

abdelaziz maroc

yes

I use Google

Damkerng T.

Ahh

abdelaziz maroc

to translate your

senteces

:D

Damkerng T.

:D

Google Translate is not very good at understanding nuances, but it's quite good at plain sentences.

abdelaziz maroc

15:31

it help me to understand

Damkerng T.

:-)

abdelaziz maroc

what's youre native language ?

Damkerng T.

My native language is Thai.

abdelaziz maroc

and 2nd ??

Damkerng T.

English, I think. :-)

abdelaziz maroc

15:34

good

how old are you ?

Damkerng T.

You can check that out on my profile page. :-)

abdelaziz maroc

okeey ;)

Damkerng T.

Well, I'm 45.

What about you?

abdelaziz maroc

20

I'm programmer too

;)

Damkerng T.

Ahh

abdelaziz maroc

15:42

i Talk C#

and you ?

Damkerng T.

I don't write code myself that often anymore.

abdelaziz maroc

aaah

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Are these sentences grammatically correct?

Could I ask you a question? When I asked you about the cheque last friday, you said that there was no cheque. So, What I'm saying is, Will you pay in cash or by credit card? I'd like to know about it in advance ,you know, the food delivery guy is about to come here real soon. please Let me know i...

grammar american-english american-accent reading passage-correction

Aww... that's quite confusing, I think.

Man_From_India

A new guy. So it's natural that he doesn't know how to format text there :-)

Damkerng T.

It looks like it's a proofreading request, but I'm not sure, because it also sounds like the OP wants to say something grammatical to the delivery guy.

:D

So, I'm not sure which part they want proofreading, and which part they're going to say to the delivery guy.

Man_From_India

15:50

it definitely looks like a proof-reading question.

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

I think after "could I ask you a question?" all what is written is what he wants us to check :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... it's going to be voted to close soon, then. :-)

Man_From_India

And i think he wrote clear and correct sentence, apart from some punctuation and capital letter errors :-)

Damkerng T.

His sentences are good, it seems, at least at the sentence level. :P

Man_From_India

15:53

I mean his tone is conversational, not a written one.My guess

Hanaa

16:16

My preparation is fine @Man_From_India

Man_From_India

@Hanaa Nice to hear that :-)

Hanaa

I finished the module of sunday

Now i am revising the module of monday

Man_From_India

hmmm

Hanaa

:p

Man_From_India

Cricket world cup is starting. Do u follow?

Hanaa

16:20

I like those competitions but i don't follow

Man_From_India

This time ur home team looks superb. They seem to have everything it takes to win the cup. And as far as I know if that happens this is going to be the first time for South Africa

Hanaa

:D what a good news

abdelaziz maroc

@Hanaa I'm your neighbor

Hanaa

!

Yes @abdelazizmaroc :)

But we are in North Africa @Man_From_India

Man_From_India

Yea but still if you call anyone participating in the world cup your home team I guess it must be South Africa.

Hanaa

16:25

Near the mediteranian sea

abdelaziz maroc

@Hanaa

can you speak french

Hanaa

Oui je parle le français

abdelaziz maroc

bien

Ilan

@DamkerngT. could you advise the verb for this phrase - "Women ____ 6% of total population"

abdelaziz maroc

je veux évoluer mon niveau en anglais

Hanaa

16:28

My home team? Do u mean Algeria @Man_From_India?

Man_From_India

@Hanaa No of the teams participating in the world cup tournament, the nearest team to your place is South Africa. That is what I mean :-)

Damkerng T.

@Ilan constitute is the verb you're looking for, I think. (Remember to adjust the tense to make it fit your context accordingly.)

@Man_From_India World Cup?

Ilan

@DamkerngT. thanks!

Damkerng T.

@Ilan You're welcome!

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Yes. It's cricket World Cup

Hanaa

16:31

@abdelazizmaroc il faut que tu ecoutes aux anglais et americans

Man_From_India

due to start from 14th Feb :-)

Hanaa

Au moin 10 minutescha

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India A-ha! I was trying to find it in the chat log. Thanks for the telling!

Ilan

@DamkerngT. "The France was the preferable/popular/favourite location for the tourists" - are all these adj interchangeable in this context?

Man_From_India

oh by the way I wrote They seem to have everything it takes to win the cup. Is that correct?

Damkerng T.

16:32

@Man_From_India Looks perfect for me!

Man_From_India

I mean everything it takes part

can't analyze it...:-(

Damkerng T.

@Ilan Hmm... Maybe just France. I think popular is the most common.

Ilan

omg

of koz

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Ah! Oh!

@Ilan Also, I think it usually is either X was a popular place/location... or X was one of the most popular places/locations....

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. "They seem to take everything". "It takes (...) to win the cup". Two different sentences. No connectors :-(

Damkerng T.

16:34

And probably among tourists. I think for tourists works, too.

Man_From_India

Oh sorry I got it :-)

Ilan

@DamkerngT. you are right

thanks

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Try to read it as "everything that it takes".

Man_From_India

that is omitted

Damkerng T.

Yep!

Man_From_India

16:35

yes ...thinking too much I guess ;-)

Ilan

popular WITH the tourists

:)

Damkerng T.

That would work. :-)

Ilan

@DamkerngT. There is a tree called cedar... how would you can its "fruits"?

Damkerng T.

I don't know much about cedar trees! :P

Ilan

but you eat its "nuts" for sure!

Damkerng T.

16:39

@Ilan Nope. We don't have cedar around the place where I live. :-)

Were you asking for the word seed, by any chance?

Ilan

oh, probably I can use this word (seed)

"pine nut"

Damkerng T.

I would use either seed or nut. -- nods

abdelaziz maroc

16:54

@hanaa thanks

Hanaa

U r most welcome @abdelazizmaroc

abdelaziz maroc

j'aurai besoin de combien de temps ??

Hanaa

17:10

Ça depent

Mais il faut que tu sois patient

Tu ecoutes chaque jour

abdelaziz maroc

hhhh C ça le probleme

Hanaa

Tu parles avec des anglais

abdelaziz maroc

malheureusement je frequente pas les anglais :/

sauf klk africain

Hanaa

The more u listen to native speakers the more you acquire lge

abdelaziz maroc

the music can help me

?

Hanaa

17:53

Yes it contributes

.but it contains often difficult vague expressions

abdelaziz maroc

what do you mean by Vague Expressions ?

Hanaa

18:09

They are not clear

abdelaziz maroc

yes

Transcript for

English Language Learners