« first day (724 days earlier)      last day (175 days later) » 

04:28
@snailboat thanks, I understand there is no a regular verb but phrasal one :)
 
1 hour later…
05:56
Hi. could someone please check the following sentence and see if it make sense I am not sure if i've used jurisdiction properly. "Governmental jurisdiction over internet is essentially wrong."
06:26
@GATA seems correct
but it would be better if you use control
 
1 hour later…
07:29
@Freddy Thank you :)
 
1 hour later…
08:33
@snailboat So, this sentence should be correct: "The Red firm fell behind the Blue in the mid-1992"? or I should write "the earnings or the Red fell behind those of Blue"
 
3 hours later…
11:35
@Ilan I can imagine a CNN reporter saying that, implying the whole performance of the two firms (or companies). However, I think I prefer just in mid-1992 informally, and in the middle of 1992 for a more formal occasion.
 
1 hour later…
12:57
@DamkerngT. oh, thanks. so, I can use the "fell behind" phrase as wrote on both variants....
Yes, but the tone would be a little informal.
13:23
I'm pretty sure it's an English (BrE) accent, but from which part of England, or even if it's really England, I'm not so sure.
13:47
@Man_From_India Hi, nice display name!
@Freddy Thank you :) greetings :)
14:32
@DamkerngT. he is from Australia
@JamesDwho, Brisbane, Australia
Unboxings, Video Reviews, Crysis 2, Crysis 3, Battlefield 3 Gameplay and Crysis 2 Level Designer and 2D/3D Asset creator
328 tweets, 16 followers, following 156 users
14:43
@DamkerngT. Do you mean "fell behind" is a little informal, and "overtook" informal as well?
15:36
@Freddy Oh, he doesn't sound much like one to me. But I'm not that familiar with Australian accents anyway. Thanks for the info!
@Ilan Yes, without proper supporting text (i.e. sentences before or after, but ones that come before are usually more important), it would sound rather casual. It's not that informal, but it will sound like something people say rather than write.
It's hard to tell in the case of overtook. More context is needed.
(I usually say, there is no standalone sentence.)
 
1 hour later…
16:43
@DamkerngT. oh, thanks. Do you think there is any formal way to say "overtook"? (I've placed a graph where the things happen)...
17:09
I think overtake (or its past tense) is okay in that sentence. However, in the context of business, finance, and investment, particularly in earnings, you might want to consider such words as outperform and underperform.
omg
@DamkerngT. are these words formal enough to use in writing exam?
Outperform and underperform are the most common ones I found in company reports.
Can I write: "In the middle of the year 2012 the Red firm outperform the Blue firm"?
I never used them
So I should understand them deeper
I think it would be better, in formal writing, to be specific that you're talking about their earnings.
but can "earnings of firm X outperform those of firm Y"
?
17:13
Interesting. I think both are possible. -- checking some real examples...
> The reason Apple has outperformed and will continue to outperform Google both on the earnings front and in terms of the stock performance ...
> In the short term we do think the U.S. earnings season could be a catalyst to emerging market outperformance.
> As of Jan 15, 2015, the consensus forecast amongst 74 polled investment analysts covering Apple Inc. advises that the company will outperform the market.
great!
these are verbs I looked for a while !
thanks so much!
A little tip, in formal writing, I usually replace all think with believe or in our opinion.
You're welcome!
(So instead of "We think the U.S. earnings ...", I'll write "We believe that the U.S. earnings ...")
I have 2 tasks - the graph and the essay
the graph is all about facts - no way to say "think"
but in the essay - I can use it :)
I will reconnect in 12 minutes
17:19
Wouldn't they like to see you offer some opinions?
Something like a summary in the last paragraph?
Ah, I see. Maybe they just want you to write based on facts. No speculation, or conjecture.
Oh, there's a bounty on it!
Hello @Man_From_India!
I am prompted to ask this question because OP seems to be struggling with "should" and conditional
I remember (vaguely) that there are two cases of should for conditionals. I probably can't elaborate the usage from the top of my head.
I believe learning conditional sentences as 1st, 2nd etc conditional is not a good idea...though initially it's good but soon you should move on to some patterns of conditional sentences. That is what I advised OP. But I think that is not working
17:28
Agree.
because as OP is asking the same kind of question, so I myself doubt what I suggested to OP is right or wrong :O
I think I've seen StoneyB say something along that line in his comment.
I think your idea is not wrong, but whether he is ready to embrace it or not would depend on him and him alone.
yea that is also true...i was just a bit worried whither I suggested some wrong info to the OP. And the OP seems to be too serious because he is asking the same question over again and this time with some bounty :D
It looks like it's not the first time of this OP. :-)
Sometimes I wonder how much the answers (here and on other sites) could help him.
I was trying to recall other sites he also uses, but failed.
Must be those popular English forums.
yea...i have seen one also...that site I remember because there he discussed some good point, but unfortunately he failed to understand it and asked the same question here again.
17:35
Ahh... That sounds so familiar!
Ah I can't help but I really pity for that guy. He appears too dedicated, but something is amiss...anyways up to him, I already told to stick to the current discussion rather than jumping forums. I can't think of anything else to help him, may be someone having the same native language of his might help him :)
Hmm... That reminds me that I still don't know what his first language is.
I think he probably mentioned Persian.
> I am a civil engineer from Iran Tehran.
http://ell.stackexchange.com/users/3751/nima
Ah, that makes it clear.
Yea true :)
@DamkerngT. in IELTS task 1 any subjective opinion or mention is absolutely forbidden - anyone revealing an opinion will lose points
nods
I take it that the instructions will be clear enough in the real test.
17:45
this is why I look for formal expressions
Is it always a business graph or chart?
I mean, what about engineering diagrams and scientific charts?
it can any of these
diagrams, charts, process, schemes and maps
this is why it is even more difficult for me then an essay
However, and essay worths 2/3 of writing points
17:50
However, an essay worths 2/3 of writing points
18:06
>even native speakers have difficulties to achieve a maximal score in IELTS
18:21
Try to write like a journalist in your first language, and you might find it's not as easy as expected.
Or write like a professor at some university, or a minister of some department, or a president of some company. :P
Hello @StoneyB!
:) difficult exam
Hi there, guys. What's shakin?
@DamkerngT. thanks for "outperform" - very important verb
@StoneyB Ilan wants to be ready for the upcoming IELTS exam.
@Ilan My pleasure!
@Ilan, I commiserate. Standardized exams are the very devil.
18:26
have no words
You probably do, but they should not be posted here!
the tasks are seem to be easy... however, they are not easy at all
How soon is your exam?
insulting content
in a month and a half
18:28
lolrotf!
@Ilan That is very discreet.
In a month and a half there's not a lot you can do but read-read-read and write-write-write.
:(
So read stuff you like. That takes the edge off.
Ilan's problem is descriptive writing on charts and diagrams in the academic context. (It could be either business or scientific writing, depending on the given chart/diagram.)
yes, we discussed the "outperform" verb
18:36
Well, to pad it out use the Rule of Three: 'Tell em what you're gonna tell em, tell em what you've got to say, tell em what you've told em.'
it won't work :)
I think the pattern of three still works if it's used right.
the are strict rules and requirements
For instance?
(I'm thinking of the standard three-paragraph short essay. Intro (What is this?), body (what is it, really?), and conclusion (what are the main points?).)
18:39
hm
let's say I was done some graph
(I've been given??)
I should sum it up in a little more than 150 words
no any irrelevant sentences allowed
The first sentence is what we have, the second - an overview - this is the first paragraph.
"This table shows the decline of RED from market [or whatever it is] dominance in the mid-1970s to a distant third place by 2000, and the corresponding rise of GREEN, closely followed by BLUE.
I was told that mid-1970 in not formal enouph
enough
Wait, mid-1970 and the mid-1970s are two different things.
It's formal enough for me, and I am very picky. But if you want to use bare '1975', that's arguably better.
is there difference in terms of formality
18:44
So the graph is not about "in the middle of 1970".
yes
There is no difference in formality; there is a difference in precision.
precision?
what do you mean?
(1970 is only one single year, 1970s is the whole decade.)
h
hm
is there difference between mid-1970s and middle 1970s?
18:49
I'd say the mid-1970s is more idiomatic.
but formal?
I think when talking about the whole decade, mid-1970s is the right choice.
(Or else we will have to phrase it as something like, "in the middle of the 1970s" which is a little clumsy.)
no any clumsy phrases allowed :0
"In 1975 a total [whatever-it-is] of approximately 115 units is shown; of these, RED accounted for 100, or 87%. But in that year both GREEN and BLUE started to raise their [whatever-it-is], GREEN rapidly and BLUE more slowly. By 1985, just ten years later, although RED had maintained the lead, its absolute [?output?] had not grown but declined, and represented only about 45% of the whole.
That's 66 words already. Yay!
18:55
:0
"GREEN's [?output?], only slightly behind RED's, was now 40% of the total, with BLUE accounting for the remaining 15%.
wait, I try to understand
19 words; 66+19=85 words. A perfect fit for the second paragraph!
i've saved this sentence :)
I was told not to use "but" in formal writing
instead I was instructed to use "however"
was it right?
I think but is fine if used properly, but I understand the however suggestion.
19:02
@Ilan It is complete bullshit. (Which does not necessarily mean you should not follow it, since there is a substantial bullshit factor in all exams!)
thanks
she was an official IELTS examiner
:)
hm
@Ilan Judging from the feedback I've heard from you, I start to question myself, what kind of person these IELTS examiners would be.
I am puzzled
My attitude toward them went from "perfectly reasonable" to "doubtful and questionable".
19:06
"From that year, 1985, RED went into a steep decline; BLUE accelerated its growth, and GREEN continued to grow, albeit more slowly. GREEN assumed the lead before the end of the 1980s, and BLUE surpassed RED's [output] early in the 1990s. In 1995, GREEN matched RED's previous peak with 100 [whatever-they-are], about 43% of the total, and BLUE was not far behind, with 36%. RED's contribution was now only 21%.
[If someone loses their points because they write but instead of however when but is called for, it will be a very unreasonable and unrealistic test.]
"assumed the lead" hm
I will never write as such
"In 1995-2000 (2000 is the final year in this dataset), GREEN and BLUE appear to have reached a plateau: BLUE's [output] was flat for those years, and GREEN's increased by only a few percentage points. RED, in the meantime, continued to decline, albeit not quite so rapidly as before.
@StoneyB so you, as a native speaker, can confirm that "outperform" and 'underperform" can be used in a formal piece of writing?
@DamkerngT. I hope you are ok with my re-asking about those verbs.
I'm fine with it. Don't worry. :-)
19:15
'Formal' writing is not one thing, but a variety of dialects, each peculiar to its own discipline. But if this graph represents the economic results achieved by companies (which your earlier discussion suggested), then performance and outperform are certainly acceptable. Underperform, however, is marginal; this is usually employed to speak of a firm (or a student!) failing to meet the results expected, the results it is felt the firm should have met.
I am very glad we have here a conversation. It helps me to remember a lot of things. You know, it is difficult to remember a lot of these rules etc
So, I will use outperform
While we might speak of Ford outperforming Chrysler, we would not speak of Chrysler underperforming Ford. Underperform is usually an intransitive verb, outperform is transitive.
nods -- I should've added that when I mentioned underperform.
By the way, this IELTS writing exam reminds me of something I've heard about Michael Crichton.
> Crichton then decided to go to Harvard University and become a writer. But Harvard proved to be very disheartening for the young writer. His writing style was severely criticized and his grades hovered around a C. At the age of eighteen he decided that it was Harvard, and not he, that was in error.
> Convinced of this he hesitatingly retyped an essay of George Orwell's and submitted it as his own. The professor did not catch his plagiarism, and gave Orwell a B-. Crichton was convinced that the Harvard English Department was too hard for him.
I found it funny in a weird way. :P
English professors can be very far removed from the real world. The English poet Robert Graves was severely criticized at Oxford for suggesting in one of his essays that some writers on the required reading list were better than others!
nice joke
I did something like this once
19:23
When I was in the 8th grade I got tired of doing 'book reports' on dull books. So I made up a story and wrote a report on that.
(I got an "A" on the report.)
I was sure that some teacher never checks our works and give us score randomly. So, inside the task I wrote words like "ffffu" "omg" etc and you know - i've got 100!
Oh, that's great! (and very creative!)
I really wrote very hard words like f****
!
Oh, my!
@Ilan Perhaps the teacher was gratified to encounter an essay with some genuine feeling in it!
19:25
lol
Some guy took my notes and did not give them back, so I have no so interesting showpiece
I am very sorry he did not give the notes back.
I hate him for that :(
That was so funny
the teacher was fired later
actually
Oh!
Poor teacher!
I liked him
ya
19:29
Poor students!
he was genuine koala
Indeed! Hahaha!
He was a lazy but a wise guy
Gotcha.
19:31
Oh, I thought you were talking about his look.
He did a lot of jokes on us
He looked ok. I don't understand in guy's look
:)
(Something like "generously proportioned horizontally impressive".)
actually the teacher was of physics
I recall one teacher that has dementia
Yo, she was funny
19:34
Oh, no! I guess she didn't really have it.
I wonder how did she remember to come to auditoruim and come back home...
She did±
she used to tell "the bacteria die because of dirt"...
I had a geometry teacher who told us that the area of a triangle was half the product of two sides.
Hmm... my machine looks weird. I think I'm gonna need to restart the server. See y'all in a bit...
Good luck!
@StoneyB you remind me some task in geometry where I had to provide an evidence that some shape exists.... Instead of geometrical evidence I provided a real shape I did at home. I've got a "V" for that!
ups, my msg dissappeared
19:42
@Ilan "The proof of the pudding is in the eating", we say.
hh
:)
did you pay attention I forgot the word "proof"?
You substituted evidence, which is not quite the same thing; but close enough for chat. I understood what you meant.
I used some substitutions instead
and you did not correct me! omg
so :) what is the difference btw proof and evidence
??
I get nervous :()
Should I have corrected you? ... I'm not on chat very often, so I don't know the etiquette.
A proof is a coherent argument which demonstrates the truth of a providence. Evidence (never an evidence--it's a non-count noun) is the collection of points you employ to support your argument.
:)
In terms of teaching I expect from users to correct me :)
19:50
Hokey-dokey. "I expect users to correct me" or (less often) "I expect that users will correct me".
Can you give an example for that?
what is proof and what is evidence
The former (with the to infinitive) usually signifies that you desire correction and insist on correction; the latter usually signifies merely that you believe correction will happen, whether you like it or not.
hm
I should read about that more
Hmm ...
I will provide evidence that the Earth has a ball shape.
or I will provide proofs?
I feel it is evidence
20:01
Evidence. One piece of evidence for that proposition is that Magellan sailed all the way around the Earth, heading West initially and returning from the East. (But that could happen on a flat Earth, too, depending on the course Magellan followed.) Another piece is the visibility of ships with tall masts: as a ship approaches you the flag at the top is seen first, then the mast and sails, and finally the hull, suggesting it is 'mounting' a curved surface. ...
... (But that could be explained by saying the surface of the ocean is bumpy). And so forth. None of the individual pieces of evidence proves that the earth is round; but put them together and they form a convincing argument which does prove it.
The total argument is the proof.
On the other hand, a single piece of evidence may be 'probative'. The fact that so-and-so's fingerprint is on the gun is both evidence and proof that he handled the gun at some time.
I got it!
incredible!
so, proof is stronger argument that one piece of evidence
can I say: "piece of evidence"
so, proof is stronger argument that one piece of evidence
On the other hand, a formal proof in geometry--proof of the Pythagorean theorem, for example--does not provide "evidence", because none of the individual axioms you cite suggests that the theorem is true. Yet the total argument constitutes a "proof".
"Evidence" suggests that something may be a fact; "proof" establishes that is a fact.
@DamkerngT. Is your server behaving properly?
This animal barks, has 4 legs and like humans... is it evidence that we talk about a dog.
The proof is we took a picture of that dog in the garden
There you go!
The return of DT's icon is evidence that he is again virtually present. But if he responds to my inquiry that will be both evidence and proof.
"there you do" means "you're on the right track"?
20:16
Go, not do -- yes.
brrr
I hope I will improve in a month
You will improve if you keep reading and writing and chatting.
I spend every I mean EVERY free minute to do something related to English
That itself is a very sophisticated use of colloquial syntax.
even if I am eating
20:21
@Ilan Note the error (which is probably just a typo, but...): "stronger ... than", not "stronger ... that".
I know nothing about the IELTS exam (or any other exam); but you are clearly able to express yourself in English. Just relax into it -- don't get so anxious you aren't able to do your best work.
yes, I have a lot of mistakes. I should pay attention more to syntax
And then? Remember Macbeth ...
hm I forgot lady Macbeth totally
MAC: And if we fail?
LADY : We fail.
But screw your courage to the sticking-place,
And we’ll not fail.
AARGH ... that should read:
MAC: If we should fail?
LADY: We fail?, &c
But screw your courage to the sticking-place,
means "stop complaining"
?
or "be more optimistic"?
what is "sticking place"???
20:33
No: it means to attach, as if with a screw, with an overtone of 'making a strong effort', as in driving a screw. And the sticking-place is the place where you want to attach it.
Ratchet up your courage to the point where you're bold enough to do what you need to do.
Not yet. I think my Jabber server is down. Still not sure why.
@DamkerngT. @Ilan See! Proof!
Proof?
Ahh
Ilan and I were talking about the difference between proof and evidence, about half an hour or go. You just provided proof of your virtual presence.
20:39
:)
I think the part that connects my PC to the Internet is working fine now, but some other parts of my server seem to still be in trouble.
A demonstration that you are not only witty in yourself but the cause that wit is in others.
True!
The system is outwitting me this time.
@StoneyB I answer slowly because.... I need to translate every second word you are using
That's OK. That's how you learn. (It's also why chatting here is probably more useful to you right now than, say, a telephone conversation.)
Me, I answer slowly, too; because I'm trying to do three things at once. The human brain was not designed for multitasking. Or maybe just my brain.
20:43
by phone I will lose 60% of words
Well, if they're my words you're not missing much.
:)
I will reconnect in 20 min. If you leave - thanks for the conversation!
A very great pleasure chatting with you. I will probably be gone by then -- I have to go make sausage-and-biscuits for dinner.
21:13
@StoneyB I have to leave for now. Thanks again for the chat - I feel it improves my English! See you :)

« first day (724 days earlier)      last day (175 days later) »