English Language Learners

the question is: can I always substitute "the number of" and "the amount of" by "the quantity of", in other words, is "quantity of" more formal and more universal?

skullpatrol

Yes.

Ilan

oh, nice! thanks :)

skullpatrol

Which one you use depends on what you are counting or measuring.

Context always matters.

Ilan

8:30 AM

yes, however, as non-native I don't always know what is what, so I am looking for universal words like "quantity"

skullpatrol

A "quantity" has a continuous quality like hieght, wieght etc.

Ilan

But can I say "The quantity of coke sold in the US has reached 4 billion bottles"?

skullpatrol

No, because individual bottles are counted one by one.

Ilan

hm

skullpatrol

The number of bottles of Coke sold has reached 4 billion

Ilan

8:37 AM

but if I say "coke" only - it is uncountable

can I say "The quantity of coke sold was the greatest in the last 3 years"?

skullpatrol

Yes.

Ilan

Police found a large/small quantity of drugs in his possession.

here, the "drugs" can be counted as well

skullpatrol

Yes

Ilan

so, why in bottles I cannot use quantity?

it is so difficult to catch the point

hi @snailboat

Anonymous

Hello!

Ilan

8:42 AM

we are discussing "the number of" "the amount of" and "the quantity of"....

skullpatrol

Let's start with the difference between how "many" and how "much". Do you @Ilan know when to use each?

Ilan

I have difficulties with these three... I thought that "the quantity of" is universal

hm, many is for countable and much is for non-countable?

Anonymous

I don't think quantity is specifically count or non-count

Anonymous

I mean, used to describe countable or non-countable things

skullpatrol

Yes, "many" is used for discrete countable objects.

How many apples.

Not

How much apples.

So what is the number of apples?

not

what is the quantity of apples

Amount and quality are used with continuous things.

Hieght, wieght, time.

Ilan

8:48 AM

what do you mean "continuous"?

skullpatrol

Etc

Ilan

So, I cannot say "The quantity of students?

and only can use "the number/s of students"

?

Anonymous

Quantity of students is okay

Ilan

so i dont understand

Anonymous

But it would be weird for you to substitute quantity for number or amount all the time

Anonymous

8:54 AM

You might say quantity of students if you wanted to contrast with quality of students, for example

Ilan

my goal is not do mistakes in the writing task of 150 words

skullpatrol

Like I said, I remember them the same way as "how many" and "how much" @Ilan

Ilan

ok, I will look for examples in google

Anonymous

"Make mistakes", not "do mistakes"

skullpatrol

It is better to think up your own examples @Ilan

So if you can count them and use the phrase "how many" then "number of" is appropriate.

How many apples? Is the question that you ask to find the "number of" apples @Ilan

How much time? is the question that you ask to find the amount of time that is left.

Ilan

9:06 AM

Can I say "The quantity of time left is..."

skullpatrol

We use "amount" for time.

Ilan

ok

skullpatrol

Time is special

It can be divided into smaller and smaller intervals ...

Ilan

:)

skullpatrol

That makes it continuous

Ilan

9:11 AM

are the other exceptions?

skullpatrol

Context will always provide exceptions

Ilan

ok

I hope I can manage with my English :)

skullpatrol

Good luck my friend :)

Ilan

yep

how can I say that using future tense "I hope I will be able to manage with my English"?

skullpatrol

Sure, sounds fine to me.

CopperKettle

9:16 AM

"to manage my English" is somewhat better to me (0:

Good day, @ilan and all!

skullpatrol

Hi pal

CopperKettle

Good day, @skullpatrol!

Ilan

@CopperKettle I cannot agree with you in this particular case

CopperKettle

@Ilan Why? To me your version looks as if you were wrestling with your English. But maybe I'm wrong.

Ilan

I can manage with my English is different from "can manage MY English" :)

exactly, I am wrestling

CopperKettle

9:18 AM

(0:

I wonder how a native speaker will parse it

"I hope I will be able to manage with my English" = "to manage (to achieve something) with my current English skills" or "to "reign in" my English"

skullpatrol

I hope I will be able to handle English.

CopperKettle

I wonder how we should express attributively the fact that an order is in force.. "The signed document introduces changes to the currently operative order of Jan 12/2014 No. 2234 titled "On.."

@skullpatrol Nice variant!

skullpatrol

:)

Anonymous

The with version sounded okay to me

CopperKettle

@snailboat - good afternoon! Do you read it as "to handle my English"?

Anonymous

9:26 AM

No

Ilan

@CopperKettle I meant that I will be able to pass exam with my English level, so "manage with my English" was not related to English itself, but to exam

CopperKettle

Oh, then you see it as an adjunct..

oh, so it is an adjunct

now I see (0:

In Russian the use of the preposition with makes the sentence ambiguous: you either try to overcome "your English", or you try to overcome something "while having a particular level of English".

Ilan

probably it is better to say "I can manage with my level of English"

Anonymous

9:51 AM

People do say stuff like "My Japanese isn't very good" or "My French is pretty rusty". I think your alternative here is easily understood, but "with my English" makes sense to me too

Ilan

ok

good to know

skullpatrol

10:26 AM

16

Q: "Amount" vs. "number" vs. "quantity"

For what values of x does one write the number of x, the amount of x, or the quantity of x?

Ilan

oh, thanks - gone to read

@skullpatrol so, if I understand the issue well, the only variant for love is "He's got a large amount of love from his mother"?

not quantity and of cause not a number of :)

skullpatrol

Yes.

Ilan

hm, I feel I am near to understand....

tough English :)

@DamkerngT. :) hi

Damkerng T.

Hi!

skullpatrol

Hi pal

Damkerng T.

10:35 AM

Nice to see everyone here. :-)

I am growing here

I suppose!

for sure

@Ilan When we are talking about using these words to describe the measure of things you have to look at what you are measuring to see if it can be individually counted as items. That is when you use "number of items."

Damkerng T.

Oh, someone upvoted a very old answer of mine! ell.stackexchange.com/questions/17979/…

@skullpatrol nods

Ah, another upvote. Thanks!

Off to tend my garden. :-) BBL

skullpatrol

10:43 AM

later pal

Ilan

tend the garden

skullpatrol

short for attend

Ilan

(just checked in a dict)

CopperKettle

@Ilan to take care of one's garden

Ilan

I am going bananas because of English

CopperKettle

10:45 AM

Start learning Russian, you'll be going potatoes in no time

skullpatrol

:D

CopperKettle

"After his long journey across Europe and Asia Minor, Voltaire has his hero Candide settle down on the outskirts of the Muslim city of Constantinople to “tend his own garden”, in other words “to mind his own business.” "

Ilan

is Russian difficult language?

CopperKettle

Well, maybe Japanese is more difficult, but Russian is difficult, yes.

Ilan

da nu!

CopperKettle

10:51 AM

I guess you're Russian too

Ilan

:)

CopperKettle

Because "da nu" is a great reply to my words

Ilan

I am kidding

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Oh, really? What's "nu" in Russian?

CopperKettle

10:52 AM

@snailboat da means "yes", but also "and"

Anonymous

I think "da" is one of those words everyone knows

CopperKettle

"nu" is a particle that is very versatile

Anonymous

Even if they know very little Russian

CopperKettle

"Nu mama!" = "But moooom!" (But mom, I want to sleep some more)

Anonymous

It's funny because "da nu" works as a response to that in Japanese, too

Ilan

10:53 AM

:?

CopperKettle

(0:

Ilan

wow

Anonymous

Although "nu" there is more or less internet slang

Anonymous

It's not something people really normally say

CopperKettle

"Da nu!" is an expression of disbelief, a "shrugging-off" expression

Anonymous

10:54 AM

In Standard Japanese that would be "da ne" instead :-)

CopperKettle

"Will you go to that additional lesson" - "Da nu!"

Anonymous

Hah

Ilan

@CopperKettle next thing you should teach "Da nu nah"

CopperKettle

It's probably a shortened versio of "Da nu ego" = "Off with it"

Ilan

:0

CopperKettle

10:55 AM

@Ilan da nu nah

:)))

(0:

that was nice joke

only it's pronounced as nakh

(0:

Anonymous

However and but differ grammatically

Anonymous

10:56 AM

So they aren't interchangeable, meaning aside

Ilan

@snailboat really?

I can say "There is no anybody but one snail"

Anonymous

"You may enjoy pizza. I, however, do not."
"You may enjoy pizza. I, ＊but, do not."

Ilan

"however" won't work here

CopperKettle

because "however" is an adjunct?

and "but" is a preposition

or not..

Anonymous

They also differ semantically

CopperKettle

11:00 AM

I remember being in Spain and Russian kids there were asked by a hotel servant to teach him Russian numbers, from 1 to 20. They told him all the expletives they knew, with dead pan faces.

Anonymous

"It's bedtime." "But I haven't had a story yet!"
"It's bedtime." "#However, I haven't had a story yet!"

Anonymous

> However normally expresses a contrast between two PROPOSITIONS, while but is available for all sorts of pragmatic contrasts, up to merely conveying ‘I am about to say something unexpected’. There are then many circumstances where but is fine but however is at best odd (Zwicky)

2

Anonymous

So it's a mistake to suggest that you can or should replace but with however universally

Anonymous

Use however when it's appropriate, and don't when it isn't

Ilan

@snailboat the suggestion was given in the context of the IELTS exam

Anonymous

11:03 AM

They don't stop differing syntactically or semantically during an exam

CopperKettle

(0:

Ilan

task 1 in writing is a formal piece of writing, no any opinion - just formal description

@snailboat I don't know. The only thing I know at the moment - I am confused about that :)

CopperKettle

However strong your confusion, keep learning and all will turn out fine. (0:

Ilan

Yes, the better thing - to continue learning

CopperKettle

(I wonder what proposition I contrasted here.)

Anonymous

11:06 AM

That's a different however.

CopperKettle

I see!

Ilan

There is however and however

Anonymous

We can bring up other uses of but, too:

Ilan

however

Anonymous

> There was but one beloved face on earth,
> And that was shining on him;

2

CopperKettle

11:08 AM

Nice!

Anonymous

bartleby.com/205/23.html

CopperKettle

but me no buts

== English == === Etymology === Coined in 1709 by Susanna Centlivre in the play The Busie Body. === Phrase === but me no buts Used to cut off objections or qualifications ==== See also ==== X me no Xs on Wikiquote.Wikiquote:X me no Xs...

"Utter no objections (buts) to my words"

IF but some vengeful god would call to me (== "if only")

From up the sky, and laugh: “Thou suffering thing,
Know that thy sorrow is my ecstasy,
That thy love’s loss is my hate’s profiting!”

Anonymous

Sometimes but is better compared to only than to however

Anonymous

Or except

Ilan

it there any difference between these two sentences: "Change is more rapid in the modern world, than it was in the past" and "Change in the modern world is more rapid, than it was in the past"?

CopperKettle

11:21 AM

(drop the commas before than)

Ilan

@CopperKettle thanks!

but apart of commas the sentences are similar?

Anonymous

I don't see much difference

CopperKettle

(comparative than-clauses require no comma in English, unlike some "чем-clauses" in Russian)

Ilan

their meaning I mean

ok

@CopperKettle applause

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

11:25 AM

2

Q: Passive "lead" followed by ("into" and gerund) or ("to" and infinitive)?

Which of those two sentences is correct? People were lead into thinking that method X was beneficial for Y. or People were lead to think that method X was beneficial for Y. Perhaps you also have an explanation why one or the other is correct? (I have tagged this phrase-choice and gra...

grammar phrase-choice

Anonymous

People mix up lead and led so often!

Anonymous

It probably doesn't help that the past tense/past participle of read is spelled read rather than red

Anonymous

English spelling is silly

CopperKettle

Ah, lead is a metal.

Damkerng T.

Yep, and we also have LEDs!

CopperKettle

11:28 AM

and Led Zeppelin

It leads to some communication breakdown

Damkerng T.

I also can't get my IR LED to work today. :(

Anonymous

Yeah, lead /lid/ is the present tense and plain form of the verb, led /led/ is the past tense and past participle, and lead /led/ is the noun referring to a metal

Led it be

(0:

lol

11:30 AM

Let ID be!

CopperKettle

(0:

Ilan

freud

Damkerng T.

Was it unlead or nonlead when we talked about gas? I can't remember it now.

(Vaguely remember that it was once a very big deal.)

Ilan

hm, that nice "The beatles stole their song name from S.Freud who said during the lecture "Let id be"....

CopperKettle

@Ilan Really? Da nu.

Ilan

11:33 AM

just kidding

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. unleaded

Damkerng T.

Ahh.. Thanks! I really forgot that.

Anonymous

Planes still use leaded fuel

Damkerng T.

non-leaded, perhaps, then? -- Ah, just saw your unleaded. Never mind that.

Oh, they need hi-octane, I guess.

(Or high octane. sigh -- I'm not very familiar with this set of vocab.)

Anonymous

I have a vague familiarity with it

Anonymous

11:37 AM

You can probably find people who've written "hi-octane", but normally I think you would write "high octane"

Damkerng T.

nods -- I wish all the planes would fly faster, because I'm waiting for my RAM. It's up in the air now (I think).

CopperKettle

it's ramming thro the air

Anonymous

The nonstandard shortening of through is thru

CopperKettle

@snailboat thanks!

Anonymous

It's used mainly on road signs

CopperKettle

11:39 AM

Yes, "drive-thru"

Anonymous

Ah, that should probably be considered a single word

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

Spelling reformers in the 1800s promoted thru as a replacement for through

Anonymous

It mostly didn't catch on

Anonymous

That's weird...

Anonymous

11:42 AM

They simplified sophomore to sofomore

Anonymous

Wow! Macmillan even lists it with a vowel in the middle: /ˈsɑfəˌmɔr/

Anonymous

I had no idea people pronounced it as three syllables

Anonymous

It's always been two syllables to me :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, but I like thru. :-)

Looks cute in every way. :D

Anonymous

You're welcome to use it, of course!

CopperKettle

11:44 AM

They simplified the sophomore, and so, for more effect, resolved to do the same with through - but that affair was wrecked.

(0;

Anonymous

Thru is rather more successful than sofomore

Damkerng T.

sofomore still looks weird to me, though.

Anonymous

Some other simplifications are much more successful: catalog, for example

Damkerng T.

Also, check!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Me, too. If I were going to simplify it today, I'd go for sofmore :-)

Damkerng T.

11:46 AM

lol

CopperKettle

"The term may come from Greek σόφισμα (sophisma), “acquired skill, clever device, method”"

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I never knew its origin. I just know that it means the 2nd year.

Anonymous

Hmm, I don't think check counts as a spelling simplification

Damkerng T.

Oh! Even when it means cheque?

CopperKettle

check might have Germanic roots

Anonymous

11:49 AM

The check spelling is older

CopperKettle

I'll check now

Anonymous

And has never dropped out of use

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's new!

CopperKettle

from Vulgar Latin *scaccus, from Arabic shah, from Persian shah "king,"

Anonymous

The distinction between check and cheque in countries that make it is relatively recent

Anonymous

11:51 AM

But the original word is check

Damkerng T.

nods

CopperKettle

When the king is in check that player's choices are severely limited. Hence, "sudden stoppage" (early 14c.), and by c.1700 to "a token of ownership used to check against, and prevent, loss or theft" (surviving in hat check) and "a check against forgery or alteration," which gave the modern financial use of "bank check, money draft" (first recorded 1798 and often spelled cheque), probably influenced by exchequer.

Quite logical, and interesting.

Damkerng T.

exchequer

CopperKettle

Government financial sense began under the Norman kings of England and refers to a cloth divided in squares that covered a table on which accounts of revenue were reckoned with counters, and which apparently reminded people of a chess board.

They had an Excel table, the Norman Kings

Ilan

12:12 PM

@DamkerngT. can I use "A further step is" instead of "The next step is"?

CopperKettle

"British Gas' decision to cut energy bills is a "further step in the right direction", Ofgem said, as it called on other companies to follow suit."

Google News is handy for such errands

Anonymous

12:29 PM

@Ilan In what context?

Ilan

Google has no soul

one part of the writing task is to provide a solution

Anonymous

Like, what sentence are you putting it in?

Ilan

so, "The further step is for employers to encourage workers to relax"

Anonymous

"The further step is" sounds quite odd

Ilan

hm should I use "The next step?"

or all the sentence is odd?

Anonymous

12:32 PM

The sentence is fine with "the next step"

Anonymous

Though I can't tell if it's the right thing to use without seeing further context (the surrounding sentences, etc.)

Ilan

yes, the context matters everywhere

c u guys :)

Anonymous

12:59 PM

See you!

Man_From_India

2:12 PM

"Saravana Bhavan doesn’t look like a house of secrets. Its dining room at the corner of Lexington Avenue and 26th Street is clean and bright and often attracts a line out front. It doesn’t advertise because it doesn’t need to; the fact that it’s one of the world’s largest chains of vegetarian restaurants — 33 in India, another 47 in a dozen other countries — is considered too obvious to its core clientele of Indian expatriates and tourists to be worth trumpeting."

from nytimes.com/2014/05/11/magazine/…

We can write the last line as - "The fact is considered too obvious to be worth trumpeting". Here "too - to" structure doesn't look like have a negative impact.

Doesn't it mean that "the fact is so obvious that it's not worth trumpeting"?

Damkerng T.

I think they meant that.

I personally prefer "The fact is considered too obvious to trumpet" to the original. Your suggestion is also fine.

I think "to be worth trumpeting" is okay, too.

Man_From_India

Personally I believe "too obvious to trumpet" is good, but whenever I add "worth" my impression changes. I am made to think that some negative is being talked about. Am I right?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure about your negative. "She is too tired to talk" suggests that she doesn't want to talk (because she is too tired).

(It doesn't suggest anything bad, imo. But I think it has negative polarity.)

Man_From_India

consider this sentence - "He is not worth talking". And if we say "she is too tired to be worth talking" in this case I sense negative aspect :(

Fantasier

2:27 PM

Is there a term to call words like revolutionization for which there is already a noun version, and that noun is actually where the word comes from?

Damkerng T.

still trying to make sense of 'she is too tired to be worth talking'...

Fantasier

Oh, sorry for jumping right in...

Damkerng T.

That's alright. I think I've heard snailboat mention the term once, but I'm afraid I can't remember it.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. agree not a good example sentence :)

@Fantasier no problem :)

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Maybe the negative tone is from worth. "Is that book really worth reading?" doesn't sound very nice to the book. :P

Man_From_India

2:32 PM

i guess so. Thanks @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

I'm glad that it helps (if it helps)!

@Fantasier Must be something a bit more complicated than nominalization, but should sound something close to that.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. yea it definitely does, no doubt :) I was just checking if anyone else has the same perception as mine.

Damkerng T.

Off to continue wrestling with my Pi. BBL :-)

Damkerng T.

2:50 PM

lol -- I was trying to setup wi-fi of my Raspberry Pi, then I realized that RPi doesn't have one. The one that has wi-fi builtin is Banana Pi. Everything looks good now!

Btw, using setup as a verb (like I just did) is probably not standard English.

Damkerng T.

5:32 PM

3

Q: Past simple or past perfect in this case

Look at this sentence from an exercise "choose the correct form" I did not know about it. Nobody(told/had told) me about what had happened I choose 'told' and the correct answer was 'had told' but I am almost sure that my choice is possible. What do you think?

grammar tense perfect-aspect

Hmm... Is that what people really want?

In real life, your choice is also possible. Many native speakers and language learners alike use past simple instead of past perfect, and in most cases there's very little difference in meaning. In real life, have no hesitation about using 'nobody told me' in this sentence. In a grammar test, choose the 'correct' answer as the other commenters have explained. — SydneyAustraliaESLTeacher yesterday