English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

01:57

@CopperKettle I'd say the sentence is ungrammatical, but perhaps it's not the issue the OP asked.

@CopperKettle Hooray for that!

Damkerng T.

02:09

1

Q: Verbs that can be changed into passive contruction?

A transitve verb that expresses an action can be transformed into passive construction. For example, "The boys carried the piano into the house" can be revised into "The piano was caried by the boys into the house". And a transitve verbs that expresses a state cannot be transformed into passive c...

@snailboat This one is interesting.

(I'm thinking: this probably is why we have phrasal verbs.)

"I walked from my home." ?"My home was walked from." — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

A (possibly) counter example.

Anonymous

02:27

The prepositional passive has semantic restrictions

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hello!

Nice to see this cute avatar again!

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2922

Anonymous

> There are some peculiar restrictions on prepositional passives in English. One is that there can be a difference in acceptability according to whether the subject denotes an entity that is tangibly altered in state

Anonymous

Read that section

Anonymous

And thanks! :-)

Anonymous

02:32

Hmm

Anonymous

On reflection, I suppose that example's not a real prepositional passive

Anonymous

So maybe that was a red herring :-)

Anonymous

Still good to know, I suppose

Damkerng T.

I'm sorry. My FF crashed again.

Anonymous

That's okay, you didn't miss much!

Anonymous

02:34

Just me being confused again, was all.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes, I think it's a normal passive of a phrasal verb.

Anonymous

Walk from isn't a phrasal verb

Damkerng T.

I meant the OP's example:

> "Someone broke into my house last week" can be revised into "My house was broken into last week"

Anonymous

Oh, yes

Anonymous

That looks like a real prepositional passive

Anonymous

02:38

The subject NP in the passive clause corresponds to the object of the preposition into in the active clause

Damkerng T.

My first thought was that, maybe all verb+prep+obj. can be converted into a passive when it's a phrasal verb.

Anonymous

Hmm, I don't think that's the rule

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

But I am too tired to discuss it further—I should go lest I fall asleep mid-sentence! :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Have a good sleep!

Ilan

08:51

:)

Ilan

11:35

@DamkerngT. I am still working on the method you have recommended - it is incredible! Not only I use relevant sources, I learn relevant language too.

It expands my skills I hope

Damkerng T.

12:51

@Ilan I'm glad to hear that it works for you. :-)

Ilan

I feel better

:)

Damkerng T.

Hooray!

Ilan

still I am not on the right track

Damkerng T.

Tell me more about it.

Ilan

until I gel 7.5 for writing

Damkerng T.

12:51

Ahh... I see.

Ilan

I started to copy the statistic descriptions from the source YOU have shared

Not only there are a lot of constructions related to the writing task 1, but also I improve my handwriting

That's amazing practice

Damkerng T.

lol!

Ilan

I feel better thank to you

Damkerng T.

You're welcome!

Ilan

:)

do you think there is a difference between these two expressions

Damkerng T.

12:55

Which two?

Ilan

"there was a 10% decrease in..."

and

"the (sales) fell down by 10%"

this "by" makes me nervous

:)

Damkerng T.

They could describe the same event, but they will give a bit different feelings.

Ilan

it should be the same meaning

what is preferred? I wanted to use them both in one paragraph - we are not allowed to use the same vocab all the way

Damkerng T.

For the second alternative, I would prefer either "The sales were down 10%" or "The sales fell 10%".

Ilan

we should change expressions continuously in the task

is there difference between "The sales fell 10%" and "The sales fell by 10%"

?

Damkerng T.

12:59

Not much. Both sound okay to me.

Ilan

ok, nice to know

Damkerng T.

There cold be some minor differences between the two main dialects. I'm more used to AmE.

Ilan

in THE resource they never used "by"

ever

Damkerng T.

nods

Ilan

they used "fell 10%" only

I did not meet "fell by 10%" even 1 time

even once

this is why I asked

because I tend to write "by"

Damkerng T.

13:02

One common sense (rule?) I usually use in writing is that if it's unnecessary, don't use it.

Like, given that two alternatives are equal (or mean roughly the same thing), use the shorter one.

Ilan

the problem is I don't know if I should use pleonasms or not

for the task 1 I have to write 150 words minimum

Damkerng T.

That's probably not easy to tell.

Ilan

and if I fail - they cut the band by 1

so instead of 7 the test taker gets 6

Damkerng T.

Before you could tell what kind of sentence would be appropriate in what occasion, you would need to read and listen to lots of lots of real English.

Ilan

automatically

Damkerng T.

13:04

@Ilan Oh!

Ilan

ya

in addition, the handwriting should be clear

do you use handwriting anymore?

Damkerng T.

Me? Sometimes.

Not as often as before.

Ilan

in modern world children did not know to write by hand

there is no need

Damkerng T.

That's what I was thinking, too.

Ilan

the interesting issue is my handwriting depend on the page position!

unbelievable, but if I turn the page my handwriting is changing

Damkerng T.

13:06

People also use paper less and less. Soon everything (or almost everything) will be pure electronics.

@Ilan Hehe!

I've noticed that my handwriting changes when I change my pen. :-)

Ilan

is your handwriting constant?

oh! yes!

if I use thicker pen, my handwriting is better

Damkerng T.

A-ha! I bet that you probably like fountain pens more than ball pens.

Ilan

and even if I use the regular ball pen instead of capillar one

I don't know what to prefer - I should investigate the issue more :)))

Damkerng T.

I compromise things by using roller pens. Roller pens give a better feeling than ball pens, and it's easier to get one.

Ilan

what do you mean roller?

without a ball?

PILOTS?

Damkerng T.

13:10

It's kinda like ball pens, but with different kind of ink.

The current one I'm using is Parker.

Ilan

more fluid

hm, how can we say it

fluidier?

Damkerng T.

We can write more fluidly.

Ilan

I mean the ink

"less viscous" probably

Damkerng T.

Less viscous. Yes.

Anonymous

"write more fluidly" seems good.

Ilan

13:12

ok

Anonymous

Or "more smoothly"

Damkerng T.

Hello @snailboat!

Ilan

I mean pen

not a handwriting

Anonymous

We often talk about how a pen writes

Anonymous

But very rarely about its viscosity

Anonymous

13:13

I personally like modern gel pens best :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, gel pens are nice, too!

Probably ideal for writing in CJK languages.

Anonymous

If you read about how they work, you might find mention of their viscosity

Anonymous

But in casual chat between pen lovers, the term doesn't usually come up

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Are you familiar with brush-pens?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I have seen their pictures.

Ilan

13:15

:)

Anonymous

Fudepen

A fudepen (筆ペン) is a Japanese writing instrument. It consists of a brush-like pen nib with a refillable or replaceable ink reservoir that writes like a Chinese ink brush. The ink used is unlike traditional calligraphy ink. It is designed to adhere well to modern paper, while traditional ink only adheres well to rice paper....

Damkerng T.

Hey, fudepen!

Ilan

I would buy one

Anonymous

It's easier to remember stuff you've written down by hand, harder to remember stuff you've typed

Anonymous

There may be multiple reasons for this―for one, writing by hand is much slower

Anonymous

13:16

But typing is really convenient.

Ilan

@snailboat it depends on if you should re-write by the same method or not

if you should type again - your fingers remember the typing

if you whoudl rewrite by hand - you remember better, BUT if you change the method...

there are difficulties

to remember

Anonymous

Most people don't rewrite their notes.

Damkerng T.

Ah, overlooking notes is rather unwise, imo.

Ilan

we always re-write words I mean, IN general

Damkerng T.

But I guess people would have their ways.

nods

Hey, that's exactly my pen!

Anonymous

13:20

Yay!

Damkerng T.

I've got three of them. One brown, one blue, and one black.

Ilan

is it ball pen?

Damkerng T.

All are roller pens.

Anonymous

I like color coding my notes.

Damkerng T.

Ah, those highlighting pens!

I've already forgotten the brand I used.

Anonymous

13:23

@Ilan You need an article here.

Ilan

which one?

Anonymous

a

Ilan

is it a ball pen?

articles is a nightmare

Anonymous

are

Ilan

articles are the nightmare

Anonymous

13:23

Hee

Ilan

:)

Damkerng T.

Must be this brand:

Anonymous

are a

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, nice highlighters!

Ilan

hhh I highlight inside pdfs

Damkerng T.

13:24

I haven't used them for so long!

(I like the yellow one best!)

Anonymous

I do stuff to paper books sometimes.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I don't usually do that, though.

My brother would have the books I had used in their perfect condition!

Anonymous

Do you treat all your books reverently, keeping them as close to original condition as possible?

Anonymous

Neat!

Anonymous

I view books as something to be used

Ilan

13:27

do you have some letters that you hate?

Anonymous

If underlining something or putting notes in the margin helps me, then I'll do it :-)

Ilan

I mean on handwriting?

Damkerng T.

That's fine. I think I got that habit when I was young (because my brother was the reason).

Anonymous

@Ilan Um, like, Latin letters?

Ilan

among Latin letters

I hate "k"

:)

Damkerng T.

13:28

Oh! Interesting!

Ilan

all the time I don't know to write it

Anonymous

It has never occurred to me to rate letters

Ilan

sometimes it look like r

R

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Ilan

an the tail of the "q"

urghh

Damkerng T.

13:30

My q's have straight tails.

Ilan

I mean connected writing

legatures

etc

they bother me a lot

Damkerng T.

I adapted my handwriting so that it's sort of a mix of printed and connected at the same time.

Ilan

me too!!!

Anonymous

Hᴀɴᴅᴡʀɪᴛɪɴɢ ᴄᴀɴ ʙᴇ ᴇᴀsɪᴇʀ ᴛᴏ ʀᴇᴀᴅ ɪғ ʏᴏᴜ ᴜsᴇ Sᴍᴀʟʟ Cᴀᴘs

Ilan

omg

Damkerng T.

13:31

Neat!

Anonymous

Although on a computer, normal writing is easier to read :-)

Anonymous

I don't think anyone needs to use joined-up writing (or, as we Americans say, cursive writing)

Anonymous

But letters do naturally run together if you try to write fast

Ilan

yes, but this is my problem

Anonymous

If you can't write neatly, slow down. Just a little bit will help a lot

Ilan

13:34

I have realised that if I make "disruptions" between letters my handwriting look better

looks better

Damkerng T.

Printed handwriting is easier to read.

Ilan

I mean disrupting in the middle of the words

yes, however I am not allowed to use it on the exam

:(

Anonymous

What? That's ridiculous

Anonymous

Cursive is dead.

Ilan

no it is not

Damkerng T.

13:35

@Ilan That's weird!

Anonymous

Cursive is super dead. Indented six feet under the ground.

Ilan

I took some private lessons from IELTS examiner some years ago

she told me to write connected

because of Caps and lowers confusions

Anonymous

A lot of kids these days can't read cursive, let alone write it.

Ilan

yes! I was amazing about that

I was amazed "by it"?

how should I say that?

Anonymous

"I was amazed by that"

Ilan

13:38

oh, thanks

I did some handwriting task and I gave it to some English speaking girl to check - she told me she cannot read anything!

because of ligatures!

I was shocked

Anonymous

I'm not used to people talking about "ligatures" in handwriting, only in type

Ilan

I dont know how to name it appropriately

I mean interletter's connections

Anonymous

Can you show us your writing?

Ilan

I don't have right now the old example -

because of that accident I was forced to change my handwriting skills

I use fewer connections/ligatures and so on

Anonymous

Writing all your letters separately is almost guaranteed to be easier to read.

Ilan

13:44

I just put letters closer in words but am trying to sweat off the connections

Yes, but it is a lot of work - to change habits I mean

a lot a lot of work

Anonymous

Yeah, it's a bit of work.

Ilan

the interesting thing is if I don't think about handwriting and just write - all old habits come back!

Anonymous

Sure, of course.

Ilan

So, the first thing I do - I speak to myself

:)

Damkerng T.

Just don't write like this and you'd be fine:

Jun 12 '14 at 0:24, by Damkerng T.

:P

Anonymous

13:47

Um

Ilan

immune

?

Anonymous

That's a pretty good guess

Damkerng T.

@Ilan Yup. But if you count all the turns carefully, you'll see that it doesn't match. :-)

Ilan

yes, that happens to me a lot

like fence

///i/i/i/i/i

hh

Anonymous

13:51

That's my handwriting

Ilan

oh, that's clear one

you use type

I should work a lot to achieve this

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Neat and cute!

Anonymous

Oh, I should have used a colored pen! :-)

Ilan

this is masculine handwriting

hh

Anonymous

Haha, thanks, I guess.

Ilan

13:52

girls have feminine one

mostly

IMHO

Damkerng T.

snailboat's handwriting looks very feminine to me. :-)

Ilan

omg

Damkerng T.

Oh, this reminds me of those handwriting samples I still have with me.

Ilan

read the Nabokov's "The eye"

the hero has 30 different handwritings

Anonymous

I learned to write several times.

Anonymous

13:55

In high school I learned to write quickly and neatly so I could take notes quickly that I'd be able to read later

Damkerng T.

@Ilan Oh! That's a lot!

@snailboat I think I was busy trying to focus only on the "quickly" part. :-)

Anonymous

The handwriting I originally had as a small child was different

Anonymous

And they tried to make me write letters in the top-down, left-to-right direction in grade school, so I managed that, but it made my handwriting terrible

Ilan

child...

I still cannot get rid of the childish components in my handwritings

Anonymous

I'd taught myself to write letters bottom-up, center-spiraling-out, right-to-left before I entered school

Ilan

13:57

it bothers me a lot

Damkerng T.

@snailboat center-spiraling-out!

Anonymous

Yes, so G and 6 and e all begin in the center and spiral out

Anonymous

I still write them that way

Damkerng T.

@Ilan It's hard to tell without see some samples.

I guess that could make sense. I mean we could naturally write some characters out of its center, like e, c, g, a, and so on.

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