English Language Learners

CopperKettle

13:00

Yes, seems to be very math-y

Anonymous

But our minds probably don't really model phrase structure grammars

Anonymous

If you consider a language like English, where the verb comes early on

Anonymous

It tells us more or less what to expect from the rest of the sentence

Anonymous

But if you consider instead a strictly head-final language like Japanese

Anonymous

The verb may be the head of the entire sentence, but it comes at the end, so it can't really tell you what to expect from the rest!

CopperKettle

13:03

Yes, I've read about it.

Anonymous

In fact, the verb is often implied because the listener has processed enough from the rest of the sentence that they can tell what the verb will be

Anonymous

Oh, I see!

Anonymous

Well, another reason to like CCGs is that they don't have the same problem in this respect

Anonymous

Sorry, I've just remembered that you're not actually interested in grammatical formalisms

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

13:06

And here I am, talking your ear off about theory… :-)

CopperKettle

It's too complex (0:

I mean, one should first sit and read several introductory chapters on this CCG to be really "into it".

"CCGs are known to be able to generate the language {a^n b^n c^n d^n : n \geq 0} (which is an indexed language). Examples of this are unfortunately too complicated to provide here.."

LOL

Anonymous

Poor Wikipedia. Can't keep up.

CopperKettle

It would probably be interesting for a programmer who works to create a translation machine

Anonymous

Most MT these days is statistical in nature, at its core

CopperKettle

Then it really becomes interesting: how do you parse the sentences properly

@snailboat nods

"Dependency is now the preferred means for representing syntactic structure in computational linguistics, where one is interested above all in automated parsing of natural language. \\ Phrase structure, in contrast, remains dominant in theoretical linguistics, where one tends to pay more attention to fine-grained syntactic and semantic distinctions."

Anonymous

13:20

@DamkerngT. The official CD for the 寄生獣 theme came out. So now I know what the lyrics are, but . . . Well, it's still nigh-incomprehensible for me.

Anonymous

That is some of the hardest-to-understand English I've ever heard.

CopperKettle

See you later, @snailboat!

Anonymous

Later, Copper Kettle!

Ilan

14:28

Oh, nice. I can chat from mobile

I don't see who is online though... is there anyone?

Damkerng T.

15:12

I'm here. (My connection is not stable, though.)

@Ilan You're welcome!

@CopperKettle My first reaction: both are possible, though the a and the alternatives will be a little different from each other.

@snailboat Hah!

@snailboat Get well soon.

@CopperKettle I have a hunch that it is wrong.

Damkerng T.

15:50

@snailboat Ah, we don't have to wait for so long.

Hello, @snailboat!

Anonymous

Hello!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I'm okay, don't worry about me :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. kasi-time.com/item-74313.html ← lyrics

Anonymous

youtube.com/watch?v=iCmqqVCeaZs ← song

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think it's not very often that a and the are actually identical

Anonymous

15:54

Even when both are possible, they're usually (at least) subtly different

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think they are indeed different. (I haven't thought of them as the same, even though they finally end up describing pretty much the same thing.)

@snailboat Oh, the s in predators is silent in the song!

Anonymous

There are parts I can't follow even reading along

Damkerng T.

Same here! T_T"

Anonymous

But it makes a lot more sense now! :-)

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Anonymous

15:57

I've heard some Japanese songs with immaculate English pronunciation recently

Damkerng T.

I wonder if a Japanese can make out the lyrics just by listening to the song.

(Sometimes it's possible.)

Anonymous

Apparently not, judging by the lyrics posted to lyrics sites before the CD came out

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Anonymous

It can be really difficult to distinguish a and the in a given phrase, though, because they're mainly pragmatic

Anonymous

Which means you have to come up with sets of contexts to compare them in

Anonymous

16:03

A speaker's ability to distinguish them in a given example, out of context, will depend on that speaker's ability to contextualize that example

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think I've seen many examples that different native speakers can contextualize different contexts.

I think I normally read "based on the true story" as "based on the true story (that this movie is based on)".

> The question is not of the sentence! Undoubtedly, when you say on the true story of, you must mention whose/which story you are talking about.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think it presumes audience familiarity with the story (whether that's actually true or not)

Damkerng T.

I think that's unnecessary. (Somehow I'm thinking of "the wrong choice" out of the sudden.)

@snailboat nods

@MaulikV: based on a true story of everlasting love would be fine ;) — oerkelens 8 hours ago

So would base on a true story of a soldier be, I'd say.

Anonymous

16:20

@DamkerngT. Me too.

Anonymous

Both native and non-native speakers vary in this ability greatly

Anonymous

Although native speakers have a big advantage

Anonymous

That doesn't mean every native speaker is good at it, either

Damkerng T.

Neither every non-native speakers. I wonder if this is language independent. I mean it depends on a person's trait, not nativity.

Anonymous

You can practice it.

Anonymous

16:24

There are linguists who are very good at it.

Anonymous

Here's a fun question:

Anonymous

5

Q: Is "I can have cheeseburger?" really grammatically correct?

As I was looking for a grammar and style plugin for a word processor to help catch my grammar and style errors. I found LanguageTool. On that page I typed the phrase "I can has cheeseburger?". The correction it made was from has to have. Is the phrase "I can have cheeseburger?" correct or is thi...

Damkerng T.

Oh, inserting every before non-native speakers as a second thought was not a good idea.

(I just restarted my computer.)

"I can really have cheeseburger?" (I haven't read that post yet.)

"I can really have cheeseburger? By the way, what is cheeseburger?" (Me after a quick glance over the post.)

Isn't it strange that "pizza" can be uncountable, but not "cheeseburger"?

Language got no reason. Language got no rhyme. (whoo-la-la)

Anonymous

I don't think it's true that cheeseburger can't be uncountable. I would say it's true that it usually isn't.

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Anonymous

16:38

I think that if you translate lolcat English to Standard English, you get "Can I have some cheeseburger?"

Damkerng T.

lolcat! :-)

►

Wow, ten years (actually twelve) is like a blink of an eye!

Anonymous

Hey, he's pretty good.

Anonymous

Hey, they've got more singers!

Anonymous

What happened twelve years ago?

Damkerng T.

They were all in the same movie, School of Rock!

Anonymous

16:50

Oh!

Anonymous

I've heard of that!

Damkerng T.

►

Anonymous

Wow, they were young

Damkerng T.

Just 10-12 years ago!

Anonymous

I mean, except for Jack Black :-)

Damkerng T.

16:53

LOL

Anonymous

I like the Les Paul better than the Flying V

Damkerng T.

Oh, Gibson Les Paul!

Would they sound different?

Anonymous

They do!

Damkerng T.

(Please forgive me for my ignorance of the instruments.)

Anonymous

The Les Paul is one of the classic guitar models. It's been around forever, and to this day you can buy a new one, mostly the same as it's always been, though a bit too expensive :-)

Anonymous

16:58

Damkerng T.

Cool!

Anonymous

That was the one the guy on the left was playing in the reunion clip

Damkerng T.

Can we still find a new Flying V these days?

Anonymous

They have a nice balance. Their scale length is shorter than on most guitars, and they have a really solid, resonant body

Anonymous

Flying Vs are still around, sure

Damkerng T.

16:59

@snailboat A-ha! I think he used a Flying V 10 years ago.

Anonymous

They're one of the guitars designed to look cool (like a giant "V") rather than to balance well

Damkerng T.

I bet!

Anonymous

The one Jack Black has is an SG

Damkerng T.

SG?

Anonymous

A Gibson SG

Anonymous

17:00

Damkerng T.

I wonder if the name is from "standard guitar".

Anonymous

Um, I don't actually know! :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That's not very often!

Anonymous

I've got a bunch of guitars with letters in their names, but I don't know what most of them stand for.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Haha!

Damkerng T.

17:02

Hehe! :-)

Anonymous

It's hard to keep track.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I searched on Google and found "solid guitar"

Damkerng T.

I don't know why, but electric guitars always look kinda cool.

Anonymous

'Cause it's a solid-body guitar, I s'pose

Damkerng T.

17:03

Ahh

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I like a lot of them

Anonymous

Some of them look goofy

Damkerng T.

Oh! (Trying to imagine a goofy one.)

Anonymous

Well, like this sort

Anonymous

17:04

To me, that looks goofy :-)

Damkerng T.

Wow!

Anonymous

Hmm... But: *for me, that looks goofy

Damkerng T.

It's perfect for some anime, I think. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think guitars are about sound

Anonymous

Looks are entirely secondary

Damkerng T.

17:05

nods

Anonymous

So I'm unhappy when an instrument compromises some of its utility in order to look cool

Damkerng T.

I think I can relate myself to that feeling.

Anonymous

But it doesn't matter as long as I'm not the one playing it :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

I've always felt the Fender Telecaster was the Steve Urkel of guitars

Anonymous

17:08

It has an amazing sound, though :-)

Anonymous

See, it looks like it has its pickguard pulled up way above its waist.

Damkerng T.

Hey, I found this model from a mecha-anime with a guitar that looks sort of like your goofy one! s37.photobucket.com/user/schide66/media/GGL1.jpg.html

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

They put a lot of detail into that!

Damkerng T.

17:11

@snailboat I'm not sure which part of a guitar is called waist! (_)"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Guitars don't actually have waists

Anonymous

It's just the image it conjures up for me

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

You can see how all of these guitar designs look pretty different

Damkerng T.

The same giant robot with a Flying V! s37.photobucket.com/user/schide66/media/GGL3.jpg.html

Anonymous

17:12

The most famous and most copied design is the Fender Stratocaster ("strat")

Damkerng T.

looking it up...

Anonymous

Wow, that guitar miniature is really well made!

Anonymous

My favorite guitar these days is an Ibanez

Damkerng T.

The Fender Stratocaster has the ideal shape of electric guitars for me.

Anonymous

I've barely played my Les Paul in years now

Anonymous

17:14

@DamkerngT. Yeah, it's what a lot of people think of when they think of an electric guitar, whether they know the name or not

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Is yours black, too?

Anonymous

My Ibanez is a pleasant blue.

Damkerng T.

Yay! I like blue!

(Should I say, "I like the color blue!"? ;-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Whichever you like

Damkerng T.

17:16

Neat-o!

Anonymous

In real life it's shinier than that, and maybe a bit purpler

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Aww... Maybe you've already forgotten our question.

Anonymous

I'm just pulling pictures from the internet :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, sorry!

Anonymous

17:17

I guess I have

Anonymous

0

Q: Is sentence "It don't seem right" correct?

In song "In the Army Now" there is sentence: Your finger is on the trigger but it don't seem right Shouldn't there be "doesn't"?

grammar

Damkerng T.

@snailboat (Or rather, CopperKettle's question.)

Anonymous

Another example of how not everyone uses Standard English all the time

Anonymous

I have a blue Ibanez acoustic, too

Damkerng T.

Is what looks like ripples on the Ibanez texture or paint?

CopperKettle

17:20

Good evening to music lovers!

There's an interesting question:

2

Q: 'more' vs 'the more' - "I doubt this the more because.."

[Last Para, J Blackburn's judgment:] The difference is the same as that between buying a horse believed to be sound, and buying one believed to be warranted sound; but I doubt if it was made obvious to the jury, and I doubt this the more because I do not see much evidence to justify a finding ...

articles comparison modifiers

Damkerng T.

Good evening!

Anonymous

Well, it's got a glossy surface, and there's paint under it. I don't know how much the actual wood resembles the pattern

Anonymous

If you want to see some interesting wood patterns, though, check out the exotic wood line: ibanez.co.jp/products/…

Anonymous

Hello Copper Kettle!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, a glossy, painted surface. Nice!

Anonymous

17:21

@CopperKettle Hey, no one's stuck the legal tag on that yet! ;-)

CopperKettle

@snailboat (0:

Anonymous

I really wanted a white guitar last time, but they didn't have any in that color and I didn't want to wait

Anonymous

Since like I said, looks are always secondary... :-)

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I think I agree with Tetsujin.

Agree. Modern version might easily be "I doubt this even more..." — Tetsujin Nov 9 '14 at 10:56

Anonymous

Sounds good

CopperKettle

17:23

@DamkerngT. So the is an adverb?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat And blue is also nice. :-)

@CopperKettle Not very sure, but I think it's simply an article all the same.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. okay, thank you!

Damkerng T.

Oh, you must be referring to Man_From_India's answer. I think it should be: "the adverb" used before comparative adjectives or adverbs for emphasis.

CopperKettle

oh

Damkerng T.

Or, the: used before comparative adjectives or adverbs for emphasis; and this more in the more is an adverb.

CopperKettle

17:27

nods

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Should we add legal to it?

Anonymous

I don't know

Anonymous

@CopperKettle The doesn't have the distribution of an adverb

Anonymous

There are many types of adverbs with different distributions

Anonymous

The is like none of them

CopperKettle

17:31

@snailboat I know, I just thought Khan called it an adverb

Anonymous

Oh

Anonymous

I must have missed part of the discussion

CopperKettle

I mean Man-From-India

Anonymous

Oh

Anonymous

Well

Anonymous

17:32

Having read the answer, I don't think I would upvote that myself

Anonymous

I see it's at +2 despite calling the an adverb

Damkerng T.

I upvoted it already!

I think we need to read that dash (-) the way it would be used in InE.

CopperKettle

@snailboat I guess he did not mean to call it an adverb, it's just formatting

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

How else can I understand the answer?

Damkerng T.

17:34

Replace that dash with a plus sign! :-)

Ilan

@DamkerngT. I have a question... will ask a little bit later ;)

Damkerng T.

Admittedly, it's not the best way to format that.

Anonymous

Have a fun delay!

CopperKettle

"Historically this the is not the usual definite article but the fossilised remnant of an Old English instrumental case-form meaning "by so/that much". It came to fall together phonologically with the definite article, but its syntactic distribution still reflects its different origin." (Huddleston 13 §4.5)

Damkerng T.

@Ilan All right!

@snailboat Hee!

CopperKettle

17:36

(trying to understand the meaning of the passage)

Oh, the there is like Russian chem perhaps

Damkerng T.

I think he meant in OE, there was something sounded pretty close to the, but with the meaning "by so/that much".

CopperKettle

chem more you eat, tem fatter you are (instrumental case words)

Anonymous

Oh, that's interesting

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle It's interesting that it uses two different words!

Anonymous

They don't seem to elaborate

CopperKettle

17:40

I've looked up, they're called "conjunctions" in Russian. So maybe they are not in an "instrumental case" (0:

Anonymous

Well, OE had a limited instrumental case

Anonymous

Maybe it does make sense to call it an adverb in that case

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. "chem" is also an "instrumental case of the pronoun WHAT".. sorry for the jargon

Like "by what did you dig this hole?" - "chem did you dig this hole?"

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Jargon is quite alright, when we know what it means. I think

Anonymous

I won't really understand what that footnote means until I do some further research

Anonymous

17:45

I can point out that people still often say all the more

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

All that happened when I tried to look it up is that I confused myself :-)

Anonymous

We could certainly call it an idiom, though, and leave it at that.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat The more the confusing-er!

CopperKettle

Oh, tem is indeed the instrumental case of the demonstrative pronoun THAT

yarus.aspu.ru/?id=472

Anonymous

17:49

That's weird.

CopperKettle

So the English construction "the more the merrier" is like the RUssian "chem bolshe tem veselee", with "the"s the remnants of pronouns. Cool. Now I understand it.

@Ilan - what is your question? Sorry for having delayed you.

Anonymous

It's not even clear to me which of the examples that footnote applies to

CopperKettle

@snailboat There're examples just above the footnote: "The more input we have, the better our conversations." etc.

Anonymous

I'm looking at the actual book

CopperKettle

Oh, I've just notices that this question dates back to November. (0:

Anonymous

17:58

The examples on that webpage are not given in the book

CopperKettle

@snailboat ah, I see

Anonymous

So, apparently some people construe the in all comparative constructions as an adverb

Anonymous

From OE þȳ

Transcript for