English Language Learners

Damkerng T.

08:30

> Would you say that you are capable of being really hard?
http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/39780/3281

Proably BrE.

Anonymous

08:58

This comic makes use of predicative hard meaning "tough": kiwisbybeat.com/great1.html

Damkerng T.

I think this one sounds a bit more like "cruel".

@snailboat The comic says "Hello."! -- Hello!

Oh, I just realized that I read the comic in the wrong direction!

user62015

Hi!

I have a question regarding direct and indirect speech.

Direct speech '"I saw him today", she said.'

Indirect speech 'She said that she had seen him that day.'

Damkerng T.

Hi! -- That looks quite all right.

user62015

My question is that let's say the day is still the same day. I meant to say when I have to report the speech in few seconds, do I still need to change "today" with "that day".

Damkerng T.

If she said she saw him today, then you should just say "today", not "that day".

user62015

09:10

You meant to say if the day is the same day then we do not need to change.

Damkerng T.

Exactly!

user62015

So it could be written something like that as well

Damkerng T.

So these are possible:

user62015

Indirect speech 'She said that she had seen him today.'

Damkerng T.

> She said (that) she had seen him today.
She said (that) she saw him today.

user62015

09:12

She said (that) she saw him today.

Damkerng T.

Right.

user62015

But this example does not seem an indirect speech example.

Oh

If she would have said 'she says, "she sees him today"'

Does it make sense?

I have written the direct speech of your last example. which was seen as an example of the indirect speech.

Damkerng T.

All of these can be equivalent:

> 1. She said, "I saw him today."
2. She said (that) she had seen him today.
3. She said (that) she saw him today.

user62015

Sorry but this example (She said (that) she saw him today) is making me confused as you are using it as an example of the indirect speech.

Damkerng T.

I usually call #2 a mechanical backshifted version. -- It's usually the version that grammar books for learners would use to explain how to make indirect speech.

user62015

09:17

Are you using this as the day is the same day?

Damkerng T.

Yes. You told me that it's still today, right? (That's why I marked the word can in can be equivalent.)

user62015

Yes.

Okay.

I understood your point.

I read somewhere that we do not change the model verbs (will and can be) in reporting speech. We use them as the direct speech.

Damkerng T.

If you backshift the tenses in your reported speech, you'll want to backshift modal verbs, too.

user62015

Example: She said, "I should go there", she said that I should go there.

Damkerng T.

Ah, should is probably the special case.

user62015

09:22

Can I use the above example like this: She said that I should have gone there.

If I want to show the action complete, in that case I think my last indirect example is making sense.

Damkerng T.

Probably, should have gone makes it sound like she meant something else to me.

user62015

Do you think so?

Damkerng T.

looking it up...

user62015

Sure.

Damkerng T.

Okay, I think the case you mentioned about the unchanged modal verbs is like this

We usually don't shift modal verbs which are already in the past form in past indirect speech.

should is the past form of shall. (A warning: this doesn't mean that should always means the past of shall.)

And because would have done, should have done, could have done, might have done all suggest an entirely different reading, your indirect speech can confuse your listener (or reader) if you choose to backshift these past modal verbs.

user62015

09:41

Okay

I understood.

Thanks for your help.

Contact you soon. Have a great day. Bye -:)

Damkerng T.

See you soon. Bye!

Damkerng T.

10:14

It's only two more days!

fahdijbeli

14:06

Hi

@DamkerngT. how are you ?

Damkerng T.

Hello! I'm okay. How are you?

fahdijbeli

I have a question about one word that I didn't understand

I am ok

thank you

Damkerng T.

What's the word?

fahdijbeli

unmatching

I don't understand it

"unmatch"

Damkerng T.

How was it used in the sentence you got?

fahdijbeli

14:09

the problem I used a software that print me a message "Traditional Life unmatching"

so it's a software for life insurance

the problem I don't have a sentence

:(

Damkerng T.

Hmm... It sounds like it probably is an insurance term.

fahdijbeli

yes

typicaly we use unmatch when ?

Damkerng T.

It would be much clearer if we had its context.

fahdijbeli

you re right

Damkerng T.

@fahdijbeli The most familiar one to me is when saying something are unmatched.

fahdijbeli

14:12

something are unmatched means ??

Damkerng T.

Unmatching, with its -ing, can make our imagination go wild!

@fahdijbeli Like when you wear a pair of socks, but one of them is black and the other is white. So they are unmatched. :-)

fahdijbeli

ah ok

Damkerng T.

However, unmatching sounds like it's being used as an action of some kind.

fahdijbeli

yes

Damkerng T.

Probably undoing whatever that have already been matched.

fahdijbeli

14:14

humm

thank you and I will try to ask someone from my company

for the metier

Damkerng T.

nods -- I wish I could help more, but I think I need more context.

fahdijbeli

no problem

In addition I dont give a sentence

I know that's hard to explain word without its context

thank you freind :)

Damkerng T.

You're welcome.

fahdijbeli

:)

Damkerng T.

Traditional Life could ring some bells for people who work in insurance.

@fahdijbeli Oh, this might be a bit useful. nationwide.com/contribution-matching.jsp

> Would you ever turn down free money? Many employers offer free money just for participating in their 401(k) plan by matching a portion of your contributions.

Let’s say you earn $50,000 a year and your employer matches 50% of your contribution up to 6% of your income. If you contribute 6% of your salary ($3,000), your employer will kick in $1,500 more. That $1,500 is like free money toward your retirement.

fahdijbeli

15:04

@DamkerngT. ah sorry I wasn't here

@DamkerngT. I am chekink now

no :( not the same use case

thsnk you for the support

Damkerng T.

@fahdijbeli Ahh... I thought I guessed it right. Employer matching contributions sound nice. I just thought that the unmatching could be the opposite of this kind of matching. -- A little sad myself. :( -- :-)

fahdijbeli

humm

yes

I am waiting someone to explain me

Amit Joki

15:48

@DamkerngT. @snailboat when should "On account of" and "In the event of" should be used? Any clear cut distinction between the two?

Damkerng T.

16:05

@AmitJoki They're more like stock phrases, one basically means because of, another basically means in case of.

Amit Joki

16:16

@DamkerngT. is there any rule kinda thing?

Damkerng T.

The meanings are not the same.

Amit Joki

Well, just leave it @DamkerngT. our teacher insisted on using "In the event of" as a phrase in case there is "will" or "would" in the sentence. I don't know how far she is correct

Damkerng T.

Quite. In case of is normally used for a condition that doesn't happen yet.

In the event of and in case of are basically used to mean "just in case".

Amit Joki

But we(students) thought "On account of" would be more suitable in the sentence "In the event of hard work, she scored high"

Damkerng T.

I agree.

"Because of her hard work, she scored high."

Amit Joki

16:23

ah! I know that, but this is kinda fill in with phrases with choices given.

Damkerng T.

This kind of drills may have different answers in real life. :-)

But most of the drills are usually designed for some specific purpose.

Anonymous

16:36

3

A: a most talented writer -- grammar -- why not "the most talented writer"?

It does not mean the same thing. A superlative can also be used to indicate that something or someone possesses a property very much instead of the most. By calling him the most talented writer, the author would exclude the possibility of any other writer being better. That is quite an impossibl...

Anonymous

I'm not really comfortable with labeling this use of most "superlative"

Damkerng T.

Me either, but I don't want to get involved.

Anonymous

I left a comment

Anonymous

I think it would be better not to call this "a superlative". The authors of The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language appear to agree: on p.1165, this use is covered under "non-superlative uses of most", specifically under "intensifier most". — snailboat 11 secs ago

Anonymous

I decided to upvote apsillers' answer

Anonymous

16:40

Besides forming the periphrastic superlative, most has some other uses:

Damkerng T.

I left a comment yesterday (for a non-related question) and things get ugly. (ell.stackexchange.com/questions/39693/…)

Anonymous

1. As an intensifier: Kim is a most enthusiastic supporter.

Anonymous

2. As a proportional quantifier: Most people think he's guilty.

Anonymous

3. As a reduction of almost: I think most everybody would agree.

Anonymous

CGEL explains that use #3 is mainly American English

Damkerng T.

16:43

nods -- I think it's something like ever in his example, which is mainly BrE.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's a basic intensifier.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I can only see one reply to you (were other messages deleted?) and it seems civil enough: "Damkerng - it was a bit strange. I read so many shes in there. good catch. – David yesterday"

Damkerng T.

I left only the first comment. And that was the only message he wrote back to me. However, I think I did start something.

By the way, I didn't downvote his answer.

Anonymous

I did.

Damkerng T.

nods

I think Hellion said something about moving on, which is good advice.

Anonymous

16:46

It's unlikely that leaving a comment would be constructive

Damkerng T.

Oh, my! It's -5 now!

muradin

Hello :D

It's 20 in my Zone!

Damkerng T.

Hello!

Anonymous

Ah, we were discussing votes! But it's about 11°C here

muradin

Oh sorry .

I thought your are discussing about time

Anonymous

16:53

Oh! Time

Anonymous

It's almost 9:00 here.

muradin

20:00 tic tac :D

Damkerng T.

20:00 now sounds like Europe. :-)

muradin

pm or am?

Anonymous

I use 24-hour time.

muradin

16:53

you make a mistake

:D

Anonymous

Oh, I see!

Damkerng T.

My local time is almost midnight.

muradin

you made a mistake

i'm from asia

Anonymous

Asia is a pretty big place.

muradin

middle east

Damkerng T.

16:55

It's the widest continent!

Anonymous

It's around 17:00 in London right now

Anonymous

Around 18:00 in Brussels

Anonymous

Hmm, what's a good city for one time zone over?

Damkerng T.

What is Czech's local time?

Anonymous

The local time in Prague is the same as Brussels and Paris

muradin

16:56

You are on the other side of planet :D

Anonymous

And Madrid!

Anonymous

And Berlin

Anonymous

St Petersburg is two hours over

Anonymous

I guess that would leave... Riga!

Anonymous

17:00 in London, 18:00 in Paris, 19:00 in Riga, 20:00 in St Petersburg

Damkerng T.

16:58

It's around 20:00 in Moscow now.

Anonymous

Oh, I'll use Moscow instead of St Petersburg

Anonymous

Less typing! :-)

muradin

Such a pity ! I don't have a Reputed country. :(

Damkerng T.

It's only just one minute to midnight here!

Hmm... What cities are in the same timezone as Moscow?

Midnight!

Anonymous

I guess Moscow is considered part of Europe since it's west of the Urals

Anonymous

17:01

@DamkerngT. Happy midnight!

muradin

i'm 30 minutes ahead of Moscow! can you guess? :D

Damkerng T.

Should I turn into a werewolf?

@muradin Oh, a half-hour timezone!

muradin

:D

Anonymous

Iran?

muradin

Yeap :D

Damkerng T.

17:02

A-ha!

muradin

probably you are going to boycott me!

:D but i admire your intelligence

Damkerng T.

Why is that? We don't have any particular reasons to do so.

muradin

I'm trying to be funny :D

Damkerng T.

I said that jokingly. :-)

muradin

Sorry for my poor english

that's why i joined this room actually :D

Damkerng T.

17:06

Welcome to the room!

Btw, I don't think your English is poor at all.

muradin

Thanks! you are so kind to me! :D

Anonymous

There aren't too many half hour time zones.

Anonymous

There are time zones that are off by different amounts, like in Nepal

Anonymous

Nepal Standard Time

Nepal Standard Time (NST) is the time zone for Nepal. With a time offset from Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) of +5:45, Nepal Standard Time is one of only two official time zones with a 45-minute increment from UTC. The Chatham Islands, which uses Chatham Island Standard Time also has a 45-minute increment from UTC, its time zone being UTC+12:45. This time is an approximation of Kathmandu mean time, which is 5:41:16 ahead of UTC. == See also == UTC+5:45 == References == == External links == Nepali Time...

muradin

I was thinking if somebody could run as fast as he wanted, how fast he should run not to miss the light of sun! :D

Damkerng T.

17:08

Oh, +5:45!

Anonymous

@muradin Depends on your latitude!

muradin

Nepal is amazing ! :D

yes your right it depends on it.

Damkerng T.

@muradin At least as fast as superman, on the equator!

muradin

@DamkerngT. you made a mistake again :D if he just standing on the poles , then the only thing he should do is keep her eyes open! :D

Damkerng T.

You're exactly right!

muradin

17:11

and maybe Just turn around !

Turning around :D

Damkerng T.

spinning, and spinning, and spinning...

I think I feel a little dizzy. :-)

muradin

actually on the poles spinning rate is not to be that fast :D

Just like a lovely dance!

Damkerng T.

Oh, I probably was spinning too fast. :D

Anonymous

Robots are good at spinning.

muradin

Yeah the sun light will blinking in that condition

Damkerng T.

17:15

@snailboat Many of us have wheels. :-)

muradin

@snailboat And subsection of atoms!

Anonymous

Hey Damkerng, are you good at subsection of atoms?

Damkerng T.

Oh! I don't even know how to do that!

Anonymous

I guess Damkerng's not built to subsect.

Anonymous

He's spin zero!

Damkerng T.

17:16

nods -- Eyes turned a little green.

Anonymous

I'm reading Vortex, which is the sequel to the sequel to Spin

muradin

Wow! I've seen your profiles. :D

Damkerng T.

Vortex sounds stronger than just Spin!

Anonymous

Oh, I have one of those

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The books are Spin, Axis, and Vortex

muradin

17:18

Such a Reputed people you are!

Damkerng T.

Spinning around an Axis to create a Vortex. -- Three books in one phrase. :-)

Anonymous

@snailboat: you're probably right, I removed that word :) — oerkelens 47 secs ago

Anonymous

I upvoted!

Anonymous

Now I've upvoted both answers

muradin

good for you.

Anonymous

17:20

@muradin Reputation just means you've participated a lot.

Damkerng T.

@muradin You can have lots of points if you keep answering or asking questions.

muradin

and who says it't not precious?

I'm pretty sure if i do that soon or later i will be banned by stackexchange bot!

Anonymous

I've given away 5550 reputation in bounties. Unfortunately, I can't leave a 5-reputation bounty :-)

Anonymous

So I can't go for 5555, but I guess I can leave another 450 bounty to get to an even 6k

Anonymous

ell.stackexchange.com/unanswered

Anonymous

17:22

Any good candidates there?

muradin

:D you are so humble!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I can try browsing through my old tabs. :-)

Anonymous

I could always do a pair of bounties, 200 and 250

muradin

I've gotten down vote by Raphael three times :D

and David

Let's not keep posting answers to people's homework questions, please! – David Richerby 1 hour ago

Damkerng T.

@muradin On another stack, perhaps?

@snailboat Our mudded-up question got one answer, but probably it's not so great. ell.stackexchange.com/q/35273/3281.

muradin

17:26

@DamkerngT. yes i'm not talking about ell :D

Damkerng T.

Ahh. :-)

muradin

maybe someday i could be reputed, who can say!

i'm going to be as you said jokingly again :D

Anonymous

As long as you more or less follow the rules of the community, you can get reputation just by participating a lot.

Anonymous

It doesn't really get you anything, though, so it's up to you whether you think it's worth your time to do so :-)

Anonymous

Hopefully you participate because you want to learn and help people, and not just to get a high score!

muradin

17:31

Yes, yes. It's amazing to help people solve their problems. I love that

Damkerng T.

Another question that really makes me wonder is our tigon question.

I mean, a lot of people seem to be quite comfortable with "A creature can be created that’s more like a tiger, though."

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Seems perfectly standard to me.

Damkerng T.

I think I would rephrase it the way TRomano did, or maybe "We can create a creature that's more like a tiger, though."

Anonymous

Link?

Damkerng T.

> ell.stackexchange.com/questions/39706/…

Anonymous

17:35

TRomano's answer just says if he were rewriting it to remove that, it seems.

Anonymous

He doesn't appear to comment on whether or not it's desirable to do so

Anonymous

(I'm not sure why the OP wants to rephrase it)

Damkerng T.

The OP thought that's is superfluous.

Anonymous

Yes, but why do they think so?

Anonymous

I mean, it's not.

Anonymous

17:36

You'd think an answer would address that.

Damkerng T.

I think I can guess.

I think the OP thought that "more like a tiger" modified "can be created".

Anonymous

If you remove that's, you do end up with a possible sentence

Anonymous

It's quite a leap from that to calling including it an error, though

Anonymous

Which they do

Damkerng T.

As for me, I kept wondering if raising the clause out of the NP (the term F.E. used) would make it look odd. But not one of native speakers in the question think so.

Anonymous

17:39

@DamkerngT. Postposing the relative seems natural

Anonymous

(Many linguists would call this extraposition rather than postposition, but the latter is the term used in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language)

Damkerng T.

nods

It's just unlike other heavy-NP shifts I'm more familiar with.

Anonymous

It's not a heavy NP shift.

Damkerng T.

Indeed! That's why I felt really weird reading it the first time.

(I had to invert it back to active voice to make sense of it.)

Now I just have to remind myself that a relative clause can float, too. :-)

Hmm... Clicking the wrong link is so easy on my screen.!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Float is an interesting term. I like it!

Anonymous

17:46

It's already used in linguistics, e.g. for quantifier float

Anonymous

Hey, here's a little summary I found on Google: grammar.about.com/od/pq/g/Quantifier-Floating.htm

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I like it, too. I usually imagine parts of sentence floating around when I need to bend the grammar, especially when reading poems and lyrics.

Oh, all is floating!

Anonymous

All is a universal quantifier.

Anonymous

We can give labels to quantifiers based on their functions.

Anonymous

For example, each is a distributive quantifier.

Damkerng T.

17:48

What about every?

Anonymous

Every is distributive as well.

Anonymous

Each is more strongly distributive than every, so I used it as an example instead.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I think every is an odd-ball, from my L1's point of view.

Anonymous

For more information, see The Interpretation of Quantifiers: Semantics & Processing, chapter four

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

Anonymous

17:50

I believe Thai is said to have quantifier float

Anonymous

I don't know details, but you may be able to find some discussion if you search

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I don't think of it much, because I don't need to analyze Thai sentences! :-)

I think we can float parts of our sentences around, too.

Hmm... It seems like the possible positions for a quantifier to float is more limited than in English.

Not by much, though.

Anonymous

Quantifier float, by the way, is a term that implies a specific (generative) analysis

Anonymous

The analysis of quantifier float is somewhat controversial

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

17:57

But we can at least say that we see the phenomenon of "quantifier float" in a number of languages, however we choose to analyze it

Anonymous

It's worth being able to recognize the name so you can understand what people are talking about when they use the term.

Anonymous

Regardless of whether you're interested in their theories or not.

Damkerng T.

nods

I like it when a paper mentions "semantics"!

@snailboat A duplicated comment! ell.stackexchange.com/questions/39835/…

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Thank you! That was strange.

Damkerng T.

I feel like I can help, just a little!

Anonymous

18:05

In Latin grammar "the most talented writer" is called superlative, meaning the number one. "A most talented writer" meaning a highly talented writer is called elative, meaning a high degree, but not the highest degree. I don't quite understand why English grammar hasn't adopted the term elative. — rogermue 23 mins ago

Anonymous

A very interesting comment!

Anonymous

Though elative is overloaded, since it's also used for the unrelated elative case

Damkerng T.

roguemue reminds me a little of the German guy I mentioned yesterday. :-)

Anonymous

rogermue is, as StoneyB once said, a traditionalist

Damkerng T.

If he wore glasses and a beard, then it would be perfect! :-)

@snailboat Probably, German's grammar is closer to Latin.

Anonymous

18:10

Well, no.

Anonymous

German's grammar is closer to English. :-)

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

But English and German grammarians based their traditional grammars on Latin.

Damkerng T.

I trust you on that!

Anonymous

It doesn't really make sense in either case

Anonymous

18:10

@DamkerngT. Well, you might be interested to read: www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/tense.html

Damkerng T.

Past Necessitive!

Anonymous

On John Lawler's website

Damkerng T.

Past Usitative!

Lots of interesting terms!

Anonymous

Of course, you'd never use any of those terms, which is rather the point :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I guess if "Past Potential Intentional" exists in one's language, it would be easy for them to understand English modal verbs.

Anonymous

18:12

That is, if you're going to name all the constructions like that, you'll need thousands of names.

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Super-splitting!

Anonymous

It's obviously silly :-)

Anonymous

Every now and then, I look through the list of unanswered questions.

Anonymous

Sometimes they're answered in comments.

Anonymous

Sometimes they're answered, but no one's upvoted the answers.

Anonymous

18:20

Sometimes I upvote those answers, which removes them from the list :-)

Anonymous

Sometimes I don't.

Anonymous

Sometimes I decide to put a bounty on an unanswered question.

Damkerng T.

I found myself upvote less and less answers. I probably have raised my bar for the answers a bit.

Anonymous

Hmm . . .

Anonymous

On the one hand, I think ELL has attracted a lot of non-experts. Which I think is okay, by the way, but it does mean I'm less likely to upvote their answers.

Anonymous

18:23

On the other hand, we've also attracted a number of good users lately.

Damkerng T.

The community is getter bigger!

user116848

I decided the topic in Overlook chat. I don't know what should I write in it. :-)

Anonymous

What is the topic?

user116848

Some say they'll pass on the topic.

Damkerng T.

Oh, but you chose the topic yourself!

user116848

18:34

@snailboat I chose "Dealing with difficult people"

user116848

Ironically--Ahem

user116848

:-)

Damkerng T.

Why ironically?

user116848

Coughs

user116848

@DamkerngT. Oh, nothing--I was making a joke.

Damkerng T.

18:35

Ah, okay. I just wanted to be sure.

user116848

So, I am writing on this topic now.

user116848

I have crossed 15 minutes so far.

user116848

I am bad today :(

Damkerng T.

What if they changed the limit to 7 minutes?

user116848

Then I'll write in those 7 mins :-)

user116848

18:39

It will be difficult though.

Damkerng T.

Oh, then what if it was 5, or 3?

user116848

haha.

user116848

Then I'll write just two three lines :-)

Damkerng T.

LOL

user116848

But guys suggest me something.

user116848

18:42

I will look like a loser if only I write about my own topic and no one is willing to write.

user116848

I feel like a big loser sometimes!

user116848

in The Overlook Hotel, 28 mins ago, by Aaron

Eh. I think I will pass on this topic. I deal with enough difficult people in a day. Don't wanna sour my mood by writing about them.

Damkerng T.

Just don't be.

user116848

I am writing though...just very slow.

Damkerng T.

I could start by writing... "Just mentioning 'dealing with difficult people' can already make someone cringe, saying 'I deal with enough difficult people in a day. Don't wanna sour my mood by writing about them'"

user116848

18:45

@DamkerngT. That is a good beginning :-)

user116848

You are right.

user116848

But Kit apprroved the topic.

user116848

She says write on any topic as long as there is some writing going on.

Damkerng T.

nods

user116848

That's what I like about her. She doesn't judge.

Anonymous

18:47

Okay, I got my bounties up to 6k! Woo hoo!

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

Instead of doing one big bounty, I did three little ones.

Damkerng T.

Probably that'll get the same effect, but on three questions instead of just one!

Anonymous

The time limit is ten minutes, right?

Damkerng T.

I think so.

Transcript for