English Language Learners

Anonymous

00:00

Some charts include them, but if yours does, you can ignore them.

Damkerng T.

I think I haven't seen them.

Anonymous

It's possible to learn kana faster than this if you want to. But you'll need to keep reviewing every day regardless if you don't want to forget them, and this (I think) is a good way to remember how to write all of them.

Damkerng T.

nods

あいうえおのうた (name of the song) looks strange.

Anonymous

「あいうえお」の　うた

Anonymous

うた uta is "song", の is the genitive case marker (like English 's or of)

Anonymous

00:02

「あいうえお」 is a i u e o

Anonymous

It's the A I U E O song!

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. (I tried to find Myu in the name of the song. :-)

Anonymous

みゅう is the singer :-)

Anonymous

Once you've learned the basic kana, there'll be a couple small variations you'll have to learn

Damkerng T.

Eh? Variations?

Anonymous

00:04

The ゛ symbol (dakuten "voicing mark") turns a voiceless consonant into a voiced one.

Anonymous

So the voiceless velar consonant /k/ becomes the voiced velar consonant /g/

Anonymous

か ka becomes が ga

Damkerng T.

Ahh... nods

Anonymous

It's really very systematic and shouldn't be hard for you to learn :-)

Anonymous

There are just a few complications

Anonymous

00:05

What is now the /h/ row was 1200 years ago the /p/ row

Anonymous

And back then it was systematic: は /pa/ became ば /ba/

Damkerng T.

はぐ　is curious about my books. :-)

Anonymous

But due to a series of sound changes, it is now the H row, and so this row is an exception

Anonymous

As you are no doubt aware, /b/ is not a voiced version of /h/!

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

00:06

The P sound is still possible, and a special mark is used for that: ゜

Anonymous

So you have はばぱ ha ba pa

Anonymous

But these complications can be dealt with after you've learned the basic hiragana :-)

Damkerng T.

The two marks look only a little different.

brb -- Now he is hungry. :D

Anonymous

You don't need to learn the /g z d b p/ rows separately, because they use the same kana, just with those voicing marks added to them.

Anonymous

But once you've finished the whole chart, you should add flash cards for them so you can practice reading ぱ and ぐ and so forth

Anonymous

00:08

Once you're done, you'll have less than 100 note cards, and you can shuffle them and quiz yourself until you feel comfortable :-)

Anonymous

Once you feel comfortable with hiragana, do the same thing, but with katakana. It'll be easier, because a lot of the katakana resemble their hiragana equivalents.

Anonymous

For example, カ ka looks similar to か ka.

Anonymous

In some cases the two are identical, like へ he!

Anonymous

Anyway, that is a basic study plan to learn to read kana over the space of a few weeks.

Anonymous

You can adapt it as you see fit!

Anonymous

00:11

But remember that spacing out learning is very helpful for long-term memory.

Damkerng T.

nods

Thanks for a lot of great tips!

I think I have a few stacks of unused cards somewhere.

Anonymous

I don't usually mention the linguisticky bits like historical sound change to people I'm tutoring, but in here it feels right :-)

Anonymous

I would get two packs of 100x 3x5" note cards.

Anonymous

And one paper notebook.

Anonymous

Learning to write kana is really important. Writing will get it fixed in your brain, and writing kana is a useful skill.

Damkerng T.

00:13

nods

Let's see if I can remember hiragana first. Then, I might add a few kanji characters. :D

Anonymous

Many people these days don't want to put in the time investment to learn to write kanji. That's a huge task! But learning to write kana is important and doesn't take a lot of time.

Anonymous

I bet you know a few kanji already.

Damkerng T.

Only a handful of them, I think, through Chinese.

Anonymous

Do you know 一二三十百人大 by any chance?

Anonymous

Ah, hanzi then!

Damkerng T.

00:14

The only one I'm unsure is 百.

Anonymous

That is one hundred.

Damkerng T.

Ahh...

Anonymous

People learn 一二三十 first because they're simplest, I think.

Anonymous

so they skip 4-9 :-)

Damkerng T.

Strange I think I might know a thousand better.

Anonymous

00:15

千！

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Anonymous

I guess that one is simpler.

Damkerng T.

Maybe that's the reason!

Anonymous

四 is 4.

Anonymous

It has four corners! :-)

Damkerng T.

00:15

I guess I can recognize 1-10.

Anonymous

一二三四五六七八九十

Damkerng T.

I could skip Grade 1 because I could do that. :D

Eh, I think you got nine wrong.

Anonymous

Uh.

Anonymous

Haha.

Anonymous

I sure did :-)

Damkerng T.

00:17

:-)

Anonymous

It's funny, because I typed them with the number keys.

Anonymous

You'd figure I'd be able to find the 9 key.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I blame my fever.

Damkerng T.

You're allowed to blame it today. :D

Anonymous

00:18

Yay!

Anonymous

By the way, you can type them with the number keys, too: type 9 and hit space a couple times. That gives you a list of conversion candidates, and 九 should be near the top

Anonymous

一二三四五六七八九十

Damkerng T.

Oh, I could do that? -- trying...

一二三　七八九。

Oh, I could have even a cute period!

Watch out, JSE. DT is going to visit you soon. :D

Anonymous

Hehe!

Damkerng T.

Oh, in the AEIOU song, the dog howls out the remaining three characters!

Anonymous

00:27

Hehe!

Anonymous

It's funny.

Anonymous

I was looking for another version of the あいうえお song to link you, but I linked that one because it was cute

Damkerng T.

It works. It's really cute!

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

Hopefully you can get used to the sounds :-)

Damkerng T.

00:29

Thanks!

Anonymous

We've already discussed the Japanese /u/ sound, with lips compressed by bringing the jaw together, touching at the sides, flat but not really rounded

Damkerng T.

I think the /k/ in ka ki ku and in ke ko sound a little different.

Anonymous

That's a tough one for native speakers of English to get down, but maybe you can get it more easily

Damkerng T.

Perhaps the /k/ in /ku/ is closer to /ke/ and /ko/ than /ka/ and /ki/.

Is that typical?

Anonymous

There's a range of variation

Anonymous

00:31

But each one is coarticulated with the following vowel

Anonymous

So ki and ku are articulated relatively high

Anonymous

Maybe I should try to find more examples :-)

Anonymous

Haha, this is silly:

Anonymous

►

Damkerng T.

LOL

I think /ki/ is quite standing out!

Maybe I will get used to it when I hear more of them.

Anonymous

00:40

When /k/ appears before /i/, you get a relatively fronted / palatalized allophone

Damkerng T.

わ　を　ん

を　sounds really like お.

Anonymous

In a close transcription, it could be written [kʲi]

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That's 'cause it is.

Damkerng T.

Eh?

555

Anonymous

So, kana is a relatively good phonemic orthography.

Anonymous

00:41

It's fairly close to what people say.

Anonymous

But there are a few exceptions.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ahh... So that's why it sounds a little different.

Anonymous

Since people's pronunciation changed over the 1000+ years since kana came into existence

Anonymous

Eventually Japanese spelling stopped corresponding to pronunciation very well

Anonymous

Kind of like English spelling nowadays! ;-)

Damkerng T.

00:43

Oh!

Anonymous

But then the Japanese reformed their orthography and made word spelled 99% like they're pronounced!

Anonymous

For some reason, they didn't choose to do it 100%. They left a few quirks in the system.

Anonymous

These quirks all reflect historical spelling.

Damkerng T.

I thought that having a writing system would help the pronunciation to be more or less consistent.

Anonymous

So, Japanese used to have a whole /w/ row of kana.

Anonymous

00:43

わゐゑを /wa wi we wo/

Anonymous

(It never had a /wu/, because it's impossible to glide from the Japanese /u/ to itself)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... /we/ looks like something on a wave!

Anonymous

However, many centuries ago, Japanese lost its /w/ consonant before every vowel except /a/

Anonymous

So now there is only one /w/ row kana with a /w/ sound, and that is わ (wa)!

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

00:45

/w/ disappears before every other vowel.

Anonymous

This is a 100% complete sound change.

Anonymous

を /wo/ was completely merged into /o/.

Anonymous

And this happened centuries ago. No one every says wotoko, they all say otoko.

Anonymous

However!

Anonymous

Some people do pronounce を /wo/, probably under influence from the orthography, even though it was historically lost :-) And it's common enough in songs. You'll also hear a (non-phonemic) glide insertion /w/ between vowels like /ao/, becoming [awo]

Anonymous

00:47

In any case

Anonymous

Japanese lost its を, and every single word containing を was respelled with お instead. Except one.

Anonymous

The accusative case marker を (pronounced /o/), which indicates a direct object.

Anonymous

That is the only use for the character を in modern Japanese, and it's pronounced just like お!

Anonymous

For some reason, when they reformed the orthography they kept that around :-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... So it's this を!

@snailboat Perhaps they kept it around for things like Whoa, whoa, yeah, yeah!. :D

Anonymous

00:49

@DamkerngT. Hah

Anonymous

You'll find several other spots where the Japanese orthography doesn't match up with spelling.

Anonymous

Three are common particles.

Anonymous

は (written ha, but pronounced wa)

Anonymous

へ (written he, but pronounced e)

Anonymous

を (written wo, but pronounced o)

Damkerng T.

00:50

Oh, this is good to know!

Anonymous

These all resulted from a related set of sound changes

Anonymous

These particles can be considered postpositions and appear at the end of words. So for example

Anonymous

わたしは　←　watashi wa, written as though it's watashi ha

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

So when you type こんにちは kon'nichiwa "Hello", type it kon'nitiha

Damkerng T.

00:52

こんにちは！

あ－は！

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's こんにちは, not こんいちは

Damkerng T.

Hmm... if the last syllable before は has no ending consonant, it's easy to sound /wa/ indeed.

Anonymous

The second character ん can be typed either n' or nn

Anonymous

The third character should be typed ni

Damkerng T.

I fixed it! :-)

Anonymous

00:55

If you try to type konnitiha, you'll end up typing ko こ nn に i い ti ち は

Anonymous

So that ' is important :-)

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Some people always type nn, but you can type faster if you get in the habit of n' early on

Anonymous

It's too hard to triple-hit n rapidly

Damkerng T.

I was surprised that it chose い　instead of に.

Anonymous

00:57

Japanese has a phonemic contrast between /Ni/ and /ni/

Anonymous

That is, かんい /kaNi/ and かに /kani/ are two different words

Anonymous

So you always have to type what you mean

Damkerng T.

One is crab!

Anonymous

Yes, the latter!

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

00:58

The former is "simple, easy"

Anonymous

The moraic nasal ん /N/ is sometimes called the placeless nasal because it has no place of articulation

Damkerng T.

Hmm... how are they different?

Anonymous

It takes on the place of articulation of the surrounding sounds

Anonymous

In かんい /kaNi/, it comes between two vowels, and its phonetic realization is a continuation of the previous vowel, except nasalized

Anonymous

かんい is also three morae long /ka.N.i/, while かに is two morae long /ka.ni/

Anonymous

01:00

So they really sound quite different

Anonymous

The /n/ in かに /kani/ "crap" is the regular N sound you know and love from English :-)

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

You should listen to recordings

Anonymous

Since the placeless nasal has so many possible realizations, it can take a bit of practice to recognize and produce consistently, but most of it should be relatively intuitive

Damkerng T.

I should get my cassette player work soon. :-)

Anonymous

01:02

Like before /p/ it assimilates to [m]

Anonymous

Which is exactly what you'd expect. The same thing happens in English.

Damkerng T.

(I just have to get one first.)

Anonymous

Or in any language, really.

Damkerng T.

I also heard one of わ in a song as ま.

Anonymous

Here is かんい /kaNi/ ja.forvo.com/search/%E7%B0%A1%E6%98%93

Damkerng T.

01:03

Not exacty like it, but rather close.

It's rather close to かいい, I think.

Oh, this one is tricky to duplicate. :D

Anonymous

Oh, yeah, it can absorb its place of articulation from whatever sound follows

Anonymous

Its distinctive feature is being nasalized, but apart from that it can be realized in any way that's phonetically convenient

Anonymous

You could say that its default place of articular is uvular: the uvular nasal allophone [ɴ] appears when it's followed by a pause

Anonymous

Actually, the exact phonetic description of /N/ is a matter of some debate!

Damkerng T.

I think it's sort of /n/, but it's not. :-)

Going out for breakfast.

Anonymous

01:12

It can be [n].

Anonymous

When it's before /n/ :-)

Anonymous

Haven't we been talking for hours?

Damkerng T.

Indeed.

Thanks for lots of good tips and recommendations.

Anonymous

Have a good breakfast! ;-)

Damkerng T.

Thank you!

You take care.

See you soon.

Anonymous

03:57

By the way, you can always join our Japanese.SE chat.

Anonymous

We don't have to discuss Japanese in the ELL room :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe.

Anonymous

I mean, it's fine, but other people could chime in over there, too.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Although it's fun turning ELL chat into Japanese chat!

Anonymous

03:58

:-)

Damkerng T.

I will lurk there sometimes. :-)

Oh, I think you're right!

Fantasier

05:20

I'm writing an answer for this question ell.stackexchange.com/questions/24841/made-new-new-made

But I have trouble rewriting the sentence using a relative clause. I don't know which tense I should use in the relative clause.

> When they finish, those old materials made new will be handed out.

> When they finish, those old materials which will have been made new will be handed out

^ that seems weird

Anonymous

It is clunky. Maybe the solution isn't to use a relative clause.

Fantasier

Hmm, I don't know how to explain the concept of participles without using it :o

Anonymous

You could also say which will be like new

Fantasier

Yeah. That one works, but then it's only the meaning that is the same. The structure is no longer similar :o

Hmm

Damkerng T.

I have another idea. You don't have to keep everything in one sentence.

> When they finish, those old materials will be handed out.

Which old materials?

> The old materials that they just finished making them new.

Fantasier

05:35

Hmm, not sure about the tense they just finished making new would be in the past (even though very recent one)?

Damkerng T.

I shifted myself to the time right after they just finished, immediately at the point those old materials is about to be handed out.

I don't know if this really works for native speakers, though.

Fantasier

> The old materials that they will finish making new.

^ doesn't look so bad to me.

Damkerng T.

That should work too. Even better, I think.

Fantasier

Ahh, the OP already accepted the answer saying it is an idiomatic use :o

Damkerng T.

shrug

Fantasier

05:40

This is sad :'(

I will try posting my answer anyway :P

Damkerng T.

I think no learner would understand made old as "oldly produced" (inspired by "newly produced" in that answer). :-)

I guess the OP could guess the meaning. It was just the word-order that confused the OP.

Oh, what they made new were actually courses (Common Core).

I thought of recycle thingy.

Fantasier

It's the materials (worksheets, books and whatnot) they use in the courses, I think.

Damkerng T.

I didn't really read the question (and the thing that it links to).

But I think the phrase (made new) applies in both contexts.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I don't know what oldly produced means

Damkerng T.

Me either. :D

Anonymous

05:50

If you want to explain it as a reduced relative clause, which will be seems okay

Damkerng T.

I just thought that it's funny when someone tries to explain that made new could be ~~understood~~ misunderstood as "newly produced".

Anonymous

Or maybe your choice which will have been

Damkerng T.

So, what would made old be? "oldly produced"?

:D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ahh

Anonymous

I get it :-)

Damkerng T.

06:00

ding!

Oh! -- sobbing

Anonymous

Ding!

Damkerng T.

I thought that it might be a good idea to explain made new as made (as) new.

So I tried Google Ngram, and it seems like nobody really used made as new. :)

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Anonymous

It does seem like a silly phrase.

Damkerng T.

Hehe.

skullpatrol

coffee anyone?

Anonymous

06:06

Wow, there's a Japanese translation of A Student's Introduction to English Grammar

Fantasier

@snailboat Oh! Thank you

Damkerng T.

@skullpatrol An awesome coffee art!

Fantasier

@snailboat Really? The one by H&P?

Anonymous

@Fantasier Yes

skullpatrol

@DamkerngT. I especially like the formula :D

Anonymous

06:09

It's sort of a mini-CGEL. But very mini.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Interesting. Is it the one that gave many people a headache around here? :-)

Anonymous

Unlike F.E. I would say it's worth reading through before CGEL. It's incomplete in relative terms (it is, after all, 1500 pages shorter), but I think it is a nice overview and is enough to answer a lot of ELL questions

Fantasier

Maybe I should start with that one first :)

Anonymous

Sometimes I steal examples from the smaller book

Anonymous

Or quote it because its more concise explanations seem good to me

Damkerng T.

06:11

I think it depends on what we want to use the examples for.

I usually like simple ones, but must sound realistic, like something people really say.

Fantasier

I think a lot of books have realistic examples, something people really say, because they are what people said LOL

They're from corpora.

Damkerng T.

I became aware of corpus/corpora because of Collins COBUILD.

Anonymous

Most reference grammars use examples from, or edited from, corpora

Anonymous

Many dictionaries do, too

Damkerng T.

Before that, examples in grammar books usually looked odd.

Let me see...

Here is something from a book published in 1959.

> You are quite clever; you understand perfectly.

> You are quite old now; you ought to know better.

> I am very tired; I can sleep all night.

> Are you very tall? Can you reach that picture?

> The fruit is ripe; we can pick it.

> ...

Fantasier

06:16

Are you very tall? LOL

Seriously?

Anonymous

That is a strange question, but under limited circumstances it seems possible

Damkerng T.

Yes, seriously. :-)

skullpatrol

Are you tall enough?

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

(person A, online) "I banged my head on a basketball hoop today."
(person B, online) "A, uh, um, a basketball hoop? Are you very tall?"
(person A, online) "Nah, I was testing out my new jet pack."

Fantasier

06:18

Ah, I see

Anonymous

But not a normal question, I don't think

Fantasier

Maybe they're pen pals in 1959 :P

Anonymous

If you did ask if someone was tall, it'd most likely be without very

Anonymous

They had phones back then

Anonymous

Constructed examples do tend to ring less true

Damkerng T.

06:20

nods

I think that's the real problem with these constructed examples.

Anonymous

The opposite of constructed can be called genuine

Anonymous

Genuine examples are observed in the wild, as from corpora

Anonymous

Elicited examples are also possible--if you can get a native speaker to say something and deem it grammatical

Anonymous

Sometimes you can elicit examples a native speaker wouldn't normally say, though

Anonymous

Me, I'm afraid I've made up a lot of examples before.

Anonymous

06:22

I often pick examples from corpora, though

Damkerng T.

I think that is one big advantage native teachers have.

F.E.

Hey, my ears are burning! Someone must've said my name. Tigers got good hearing, ya know. :)

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Anonymous

Hello, tiger of good hearing!

Damkerng T.

Oh, found one message above. :-)

Anonymous

06:27

:-)

Damkerng T.

Very good hearing indeed!

Fantasier

Wow, you really have good ears!

F.E.

The 2005 textbook reads like a textbook, imo. But the 2002 reference grammar reads like a novel, imo, and so, I find it enjoyable to read, and it seems like I'm learning new stuff each time I read or re-read a page of it. What is weird is that I find it easier to use the 2005 textbook as the quick go-to "reference".

Damkerng T.

They are that different?!

F.E.

Actually, there's some stuff in the 2005 textbook that isn't in the 2002 CGEL. It seems they found out that some basic stuff was omitted from CGEL.

Yes, the textbook is a, er, a textbook. It got a quiz at the end of each chapter. It tells you, er, "rules".

Damkerng T.

06:30

Oh!

That sounds really like a textbook.

F.E.

CGEL is more of a one-on-one coffeeshop-like discussion. It explains and discusses stuff with you.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

skullpatrol

How much did it cost?

F.E.

Hello back, y'all! :) . . . I have good hearing, but only when stuff is said about me.

Damkerng T.

lol

F.E.

06:32

CGEL is probably around $230 USA, plus or minus 20 bucks, I think. The textbook might be around 25-30 bucks or so.

Anonymous

@skullpatrol Eliciting data is when you get speakers to say stuff, often specific to a particular topic, or using a particular construction, etc. Naturally occurring speech is more valuable linguistically, though, I think

Anonymous

Better to base your observations on what people actually say than what you can get them to say

skullpatrol

@snailboat true

F.E.

I'm supposed to be researching to see if the info I just put in a post is accurate, more or less, but me lazy . . . Tigers are lazy, on the whole, yanno, because we be part of the cat family.

Damkerng T.

I love cats.

Fantasier

06:35

I don't *grin*

Damkerng T.

My cat usually pets me nicely; I hope the same from you.

F.E.

I like pizza. I just finished off the leftover crusts of one, and also had a serving of lasagna. Does anyone here smell of lasagna. Tigers like lasagna very much.

Fantasier

I love pizza, and I like lasagna.

Damkerng T.

Lasagna? pointing to everyone else

Fantasier

And I got fat :x

F.E.

06:36

Is it true that prey become what they eat?

skullpatrol

how so?

when a bird is alive it eats ants, when the bird dies the ants eat the bird

F.E.

Also, CGEL has more info on each page (than does a textbook). So, although it is 1800 pages, it really is the equivalent of something like 2700-3600 textbook pages (especially since it doesn't waste pages on quizzes or have much white space on the pages for spacing).

No pizza eats a tiger, dead tiger or not.

I really should spend a few minutes to double check some info . . . (sneaking away)

F.E.

07:11

Wow, it be quiet . . .

skullpatrol

When the cat's away, the mice don't always have to play :-)

Awal Garg

09:56

people people everywhere :)

Nico

miau

Awal Garg

oh, people and cats everywhere :)

Nico

meow

How do cats say in India?

Awal Garg

meow

Nico

how disappointing!

Awal Garg

09:58

Nico, can I call you NC? Shortforms for everyone... you see

or NI?

Nico

No please

what's next? are you gonna assign me a number? :p

Awal Garg

"No"? it sounds like "negativity"

Nico

It's the poetic warrior in me!

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