English Language Learners

jimsug

15:00

nods plunge would work.

Nico

@snailboat Why "*.[j] gold" and not "[j*] gold"?

Damkerng T.

@Nico I usually use *.[jj*] for "any adjective".

Damkerng T.

15:15

5

Q: No,I didn't see vs yes I didn't see

Bob didn't come to office today. I was asked "Didn't you see Bob today?" Should I say "Yes, I didn't see him today" or "No, I didn't see him today" ?

negation

Anonymous

In many languages, the common word pair corresponding to yes and no is used for agreement/disagreement rather than affirmation/negation

jimsug

Yeah. Some languages have a way for expressing affirmation of a negative question, though; French, for one.

Anonymous

So for a language learner whose L1 works that way, it's expected that they'll come up with "Yes, I didn't see him today" in response to "Didn't you see him today?"

Damkerng T.

I think in real life, when English is a lingua franca, it might be better to reply "I did NOT see him." or "I SAW him".

I think that's even more important than "Yes" or "No".

Anonymous

"No, I didn't [see him today]" seems more natural to me

Damkerng T.

15:18

I'd answer that way if the other is a native speaker (which is really rare in my own experience).

Anonymous

Well, you could write that as an answer.

Damkerng T.

I'd probably say "Yes, I DID see him."

I'm not sure if it's really good advice.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You left out your 'd (would)

Damkerng T.

Ah, yes. :D

TYftC!

jimsug

I can't imagine "Yes, I didn't see him" as being idiomatic.

Damkerng T.

15:20

Me neither.

My point is I felt that adding "Yes" or "No" seems to confuse some people. Dropping the "Yes" (or "No") part might be helpful.

Anonymous

In Japanese, hai confirms and iie contradicts, and most of the alternatives (e.g. un and uun) work the same way

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think it causes the listener to spend more mental energy on processing what you're saying

jimsug

See, native speakers are unlikely to even process the "no" in no, I didn't

It's phonetically reduced...

almost elided.

Reduced in volume, too. Unless, of course, the fact that you didn't see/do something is news.

Damkerng T.

nods

But when the question is "Didn't you see Bob today?", the speaker already implies that I didn't see Bob today. So it's not exactly news.

jimsug

"Didn't you see John today?"
"No, I didn't, I hardly ever see him."
"Didn't you see John today?"
"_No_, I _didn't_ - I usually see him first thing in the morning!"

Darn formatting.

Anonymous

15:26

In person, you can communicate your answer partially or entirely through body language

jimsug

@snailboat pitch movements, as well.

Anonymous

And in speech, even over the phone, you can communicate it partially or entirely without words

Damkerng T.

@jimsug It's alright; I understand what you meant.

jimsug

2

Q: 'Committed', 'made' and 'did' a blunder/mistake?

Though all convey the same message, I'd like to know the subtlety, if any. I committed a blunder/mistake I made a blunder/mistake I did a blunder/mistake Note: I'm clear about what is a blunder and what is a mistake. So basically, in the context of blunder/mistake, which verb (do, make,...

word-choice

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That's interesting!

jimsug

15:27

How does one-boxing work>

Damkerng T.

Here?

Just paste the link.

jimsug

That didn't seem to work :S

Damkerng T.

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/24529/…

Eh? What happened? It should work.

Anonymous

S'cause you're using HTTPS-everywhere.

jimsug

Ah

Anyway, I was quite curious to hear that Maulik's come across did a mistake/blunder

sounds quite ungrammatical to my ear, but I don't have access to ICE yet.

Damkerng T.

15:30

From a learner, perhaps.

Anonymous

I'm not convinced he has.

Anonymous

The example he gave was post-auxiliary ellipsis of make

jimsug

@medica Fine I got it. Also, I noticed that the structure I observed is mostly found in forums and by the users that are non-native. Difficult to take out non-nativeness from me ;) Thanks. — Maulik V 6 hours ago

Yeah, maybe.

Indian English does have different syntactical structures, though.

hellodear

@DamkerngT.

U there??

Damkerng T.

@hellodear Hello!

Anonymous

15:32

Yeah, but it would likely have shown up somewhere in GloWbE

hellodear

CAn you help me in ubtuntu installation?

Damkerng T.

Oh, so you are the first hellodear?

Where did the second hellodear (2) go?

hellodear

I have changed my name . heheheh

Damkerng T.

:)

Anonymous

Hellodear primacy!

hellodear

15:32

Haha... He has gone on a long trip to Thai to meet Dam

Damkerng T.

Ah, I haven't seen him yet. Maybe I will soon. :D

jimsug

@snailboat This is true, a fair chunk of GloWbE is from Indian English.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I didn't have to install Ubuntu myself for a long time, but it shouldn't be difficult for a typical installation.

hellodear

askubuntu.com/questions/474493/ubuntu-installation-time-problem Can you see this for me?

jimsug

@snailboat I think @hellodear uses https-everywhere as well ;)

Damkerng T.

15:34

@hellodear /dev/sda7 - You have a lot of hard drives!

Anonymous

There is a precise set of rules for when the content-munging mechanism known as "oneboxing" kicks in

Anonymous

The message must be on a line by itself.

hellodear

I have only 3 partitions. Why are they 7?

Please help me

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. You're trying to dual-boot.

jimsug

@snailboat Oh yes, forgot about that - I knew it, but looked for the https first :P

hellodear

15:35

I have bought a new laptop.

Damkerng T.

@hellodear May I suggest a virtual machine instead?

hellodear

No.

I want dual boot.

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure about Windows 8. It's different, according to what I've heard.

hellodear

but can't u answer my question?

:(

jimsug

I've had issues dual-booting linux and windows 8, too.

Damkerng T.

15:36

Perhaps I could, if it's Windows XP.

jimsug

Afraid from empathising with you, I'm afraid I can't help either, though.

Anonymous

I'd rather not help with partitioning, sorry. If you do it wrong and wipe out Windows 8, you'll be angry at me. :-)

hellodear

I don't think questions depends on Windows.

It is something else.

No, I won't.

Damkerng T.

I think it's about... what's it called? UD.. something.

hellodear

I am not a begineer.

Anonymous

15:38

UEFI?

jimsug

Oh, do we still have a preposistions tag? Can/should that be made a synonym for preposition?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, that sounds like it!

hellodear

Yes

Anonymous

Since it has no questions and no tag wiki, the system will delete it.

Anonymous

Just give it some time.

jimsug

15:39

... nevermind, it seems like we don't (and I secretly wanted to try out the [tag:] syntax)

Damkerng T.

@hellodear I think it's UEFI that causes you the troubles.

hellodear

What is the troubl

how can I solve it?

jimsug

@DamkerngT. This has been my experience, and I'm not sure there's a workaround.

Anonymous

In that case, the system deleted it faster than I expected it to!

Damkerng T.

Around the time of Ubuntu 12.x, UEFI came out, and it sounds like you will need to have a special key to do this kind of thing with your own computer.

hellodear

15:40

what should I do with that error?

Damkerng T.

I didn't follow up the matter, so I don't really know how to deal with it.

hellodear

No help?

Damkerng T.

I'm afraid I can't. I'm sorry. My best advice is using VM instead.

I'm sure there are some people out there who know how to deal with this UEFI.

Anonymous

@hellodear Trying typing your error message more precisely when you search: "No root file system is defined. Please correct this from the partitioning menu."

Anonymous

You left out root and the

Anonymous

15:46

0

Q: Word for a sudden drop in ranking?

My website ranking suddenly dropped from the top 10 to 1000. My website ranking dropped abruptly. How do I use abruptly in the sentence above? I want to describe how the rank dropped suddenly from a high rank to a low rank.

word-request vocabulary

Anonymous

This question is downvote city.

Damkerng T.

I upvoted it a bit. :D

Anonymous

Usernumber's answer got a downvote, and Jay's answer got two downvotes

Anonymous

And the question got one, too.

Damkerng T.

The Usernumber's one is understandable. I don't know why Jay's also got downvotes.

Because it sounds more like a comment?

Anonymous

15:48

It is kind of commentish.

Damkerng T.

In any case, the OP's question is kinda paradoxical.

> How do I use abruptly in the sentence above? I want to describe how the rank dropped suddenly from a high rank to a low rank.

Anonymous

They asked for a word, but then they asked how to use abruptly

Anonymous

They asked two different things.

Damkerng T.

nods

jimsug

Are you two looking at deleted answers?

Anonymous

15:50

It's not clear what they meant. Perhaps (but probably not?) the second question was intended to say "How did I use abruptly? Was it acceptable?"

jimsug

feels left out

Anonymous

I do see a deleted answer.

jimsug

;)

Damkerng T.

I do, too.

Anonymous

> My ranking took a vertiginous nose dive. My ranking went south in a sharp fall.

Anonymous

15:51

That is what it suggested.

jimsug

Deletion justified.

Anonymous

I replied: "People don't often use the word vertiginous. It's around #30,000 in COCA's frequency list. Went south in a sharp fall is okay, but it's not quite idiomatic. It mixes two different directional metaphors."

Anonymous

Though okay was probably being generous

Damkerng T.

nods

jimsug

Okay was definitely generous.

Anonymous

15:52

I just worry about being too harsh in comments.

Anonymous

3

Q: the and thee (I prefer to pronounce it as thuh all the time)

My question is can I always pronounce THE with thuh instead of thee? Because unlike "a" "an" rule, pronouncing "thee" seems cumbersome for some people (including me) Note that I know the "emphasis" and "vowel, consonant" rule about THE but I still prefer to pronounce it as thuh everytime. So can ...

pronunciation definite-article non-native-english sandhi

Anonymous

This has 4 close votes

jimsug

Yeah, this is true. People on the internet have can unexpectedly thin skin.

Anonymous

The answers give the usual prescription for ðə before consonants and ði before vowels

Anonymous

Which is descriptively accurate for a lot of speakers (most?)

Anonymous

15:54

But a lot of native speakers depart from those rules

jimsug

Some of those comments are a bit derisive.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think that's what we're supposed to say.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What do you mean by supposed to?

Anonymous

Do you mean it's the prestige pattern?

Damkerng T.

By the book, I mean.

Anonymous

15:55

Oh, prescriptively? Yes

jimsug

I personally think I use ðəʔ more often than ði

Anonymous

Yeah, me too.

Anonymous

Of course, introspection about one's phonetics is notoriously difficult :-)

Anonymous

in English Language & Usage, 3 hours ago, by snailboat

John Wells writes in the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary:

Anonymous

in English Language & Usage, 3 hours ago, by snailboat

> The English as a foreign language learner is advised to use ðə before a consonant sound (the boy, the house), ði before a vowel sound (the egg, the hour). Native speakers, however, sometimes ignore this distribution, in particular by using ðə before a vowel (which is in turn usually reinforced by a preceding ʔ), or by using ðiː in any environment, though especially before a hesitation pause. Furthermore, some speakers use stressed ðə as a strong form, rather than the usual ðiː.

Anonymous

15:57

in English Language & Usage, 3 hours ago, by snailboat

So I think the claim that ði/ðə allomorphy is an ironclad rule in English is not quite descriptively accurate, although it is still a useful prescription for learners

Damkerng T.

From what I've gathered, I think 95% of ðə, ði in movies follow the prescriptive pronunciation.

Fantasier

Interesting.

Damkerng T.

(Of course, I don't count emphasized ði ones.)

Anonymous

That question's going to be closed as a duplicate shortly, though, so there's no reason to answer it

Damkerng T.

in English Language & Usage, 3 hours ago, by KitFox

I think you should write an answer for that question.

I think I agree with KitFox.

Anonymous

16:00

I don't want to answer questions that are getting closed.

Damkerng T.

nods

Oh, tchrist mentioned "3. used emphatically: /ðiː/"

Anonymous

When you go to the URL of a question that's closed as a duplicate, unless you're signed in, you're silently redirected to the question it's a duplicate of

Anonymous

Yeah, but English has no phonemic length distinction.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, I didn't know that!

Anonymous

So ː doesn't belong in slashes

Anonymous

16:02

When you close a question as a duplicate, you're saying "This question is entirely answered by the existing answers on the other question. There is no need to show the answers here to anyone, or indeed to post answers here at all"

Anonymous

(If that's not true, it shouldn't be a duplicate)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The OED uses quasi-phonemic notation

Damkerng T.

I bet that people who tend to say /j/ in [ðɪj ˈapl] will automatically follow the prescriptive pattern.

Anonymous

It's sort of like phonemic transcription, but with a few phonetic details added in

jimsug

0

Q: Which explanation is more precise?

We can use would to express annoyance or irritation at things that are happening now. There is ususally a sense that this is typical, or not very surprising. You would say that! ( it's typical of you, and it's annoying ). Wouldn't you just know it! ( I knew that woul...

modal-verbs

What do you suppose "precise" means, here?

Correct?

Damkerng T.

16:04

I guess he meant "accurate".

Fantasier

I think it's easier to link the syllables if I pronounce the in 'the apple' as /ðɪ/ whilst with /ðə/ it's a little difficult.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier That happens to me too.

Fantasier

I've always assumed that that is where the rule is from.

I think Macmillan's, especially Inside Out coursebooks, is mainly AmE, while PEU is mainly BrE. It's not surprising they contradict.

Anonymous

@Fantasier Put a glottal consonant between the vowels.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Could you tell us more about the contradiction?

Oh, I see it in the question.

Fantasier

16:09

@snailboat You mean like /ðɪʔæpəl/ ?

Anonymous

English has no glottal stop phoneme.

Anonymous

It doesn't belong between slashes

Anonymous

But yes

Anonymous

Well, er, wait.

Fantasier

Oh, how should I represent it then? In square brackets?

Anonymous

16:10

@Fantasier I meant following schwa :-)

jimsug

yeah, but then you might want to velarise that /l/

Anonymous

In square brackets, it's up to you just how much detail you want to represent

Anonymous

For me, the l would also be syllabic

Fantasier

Hmm... [ðəʔ æpəl] ?

Damkerng T.

Maybe [ðəʔ æpl]

Anonymous

16:14

Yeah. You can put a little thingy under the l to indicate that it's syllabic, or cross it to indicate that it's "dark" (velarized), at least, if you want to

Anonymous

Doing all this myself would take Effort, so I leave it to you to use the IPA keyboard if you'd like to :-)

Fantasier

Oh, thanks. Bookmarked :)

Anonymous

It's very handy. There are a few other ways to write IPA, some of which might be more useful if you're doing a lot of it

Damkerng T.

Like this? [ðəʔ æpɫ]

Anonymous

Oh, fancy!

Damkerng T.

16:18

:D

Anonymous

I don't have a light allophone of /l/, so I don't usually bother distinguishing unless it's important to other people.

Anonymous

My /l/ is velarized in all positions.

Anonymous

1

A: A beer in hand vs a beer in a hand

In the right context, any of those could be used as there nothing specifically wrong with any of them. However, this looks a lot like the saying "A Bird in the Hand..." Which I have seen as both "A Bird in hand" and "A Bird in the Hand". "A Bird in a Hand" has a slight bit of ambiguity, as to ...

Anonymous

This is funny because it's true.

Anonymous

A beer in the hand is worth two in the fridge.

Anonymous

16:20

(Note: I've never had alcohol. I just think the phrase is funny.)

Damkerng T.

I'm sure it's true at Oktoberfest!

Anonymous

I have Oktoberfest mugs.

Anonymous

Company-sponsored stuff.

Anonymous

I've never gone to a beer drinking festival.

Damkerng T.

Yay! (I haven't been to one myself. I tried to convince my friends to go there together but they refused me. :-)

And we went to Heidelberg instead.

I don't know why Kaz's answer got a downvote, though.

Anonymous

16:25

Didja read Merk's comment and the ensuing discussion?

Damkerng T.

reading...

Anonymous

It appears that the answer's been edited significantly since that discussion took place.

Damkerng T.

Ahh...

> "A beer in hand" is not a grammatical unit by itself.

Must be because of this sentence.

Anonymous

Though before jimsug's comment.

Awal Garg

Hello people.

Damkerng T.

16:27

Hello!

Awal Garg

I have a query (surprisingly)

I want to say - "I have enquired about you".

But, the word enquire, is not what I want to say...

Anonymous

> Preston was standing at the doorway, a beer in hand. Somehow, day had become evening.

Anonymous

That's from COCA.

Awal Garg

It seems very... judicial type...

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Sounds like a plausible sentence.

Anonymous

16:29

@AwalGarg Asked about, perhaps?

Damkerng T.

@AwalGarg What would you say in plain English?

Anonymous

What exactly is it that you want to express?

Awal Garg

@snailboat I thought of it, but no... something more like enquiry, but without the negative sense

@snailboat umm, enquire, but without the neagative feeling of it...

@DamkerngT. this

Anonymous

Does inquire have a negative connotation? Hmm.

Anonymous

Probably one of those subtleties that goes over my head.

Damkerng T.

16:30

In what way do you think enquiry connotes a negative sense?

Awal Garg

It sounds like, we are asking people - "Has he done any crime?"

Anonymous

Who and what did you ask about them?

Awal Garg

It has a very serious sense. I wanna make it ver informal. Light weight...

Anonymous

I've been asking around about you?

Damkerng T.

@AwalGarg And you don't want to say ask about?

Awal Garg

16:32

@snailboat just some natural things. How is their nature and stuff..

@DamkerngT. no. because, it is not looking good to me. (no jokes)

@snailboat ^

Anonymous

Well, maybe you could post one of those fancy single-word-request questions on ELU.

Anonymous

Me, I can't think of much beside ask [around] about

Awal Garg

@snailboat It feels like, I was wandering around the town, only to pick random people and interviewing them about her...

Anonymous

I mean, "I've been checking up on you" is possible

Anonymous

Although any phrase like this will have certain implications

Damkerng T.

16:35

Maybe... "I've heard about you"

Fantasier

Do you really need to emphasise asking? Maybe you can use something like I've heard so much about you.

Jinx

Damkerng T.

:D

Awal Garg

Oh yeah, "heard" is a nice thing... great

@DamkerngT. btw, apologies for the other day... It wasn't a nice joke perhaps.

^You are quite polite though :)

Damkerng T.

Don't worry. (What was it by the way? :-)

Awal Garg

if you have forgot it, then leave it.

Damkerng T.

16:38

:D

Awal Garg

anyways, look at this: "Hey, I think I have heard about you, you are such and such, right?" Is it fine?

Damkerng T.

I'd say that it depends on whom you're talking to.

Awal Garg

Its just that, I meet someone, and I know them quite well, I don't want to imply that. Maybe I do, but very subtly...

Anonymous

You'd typically reduce that have unless you were stressing it

Damkerng T.

It sounds rather direct, imo.

Anonymous

16:39

"I think I've heard about you"

Anonymous

"Hey, I think I have heard about you"

Awal Garg

@snailboat it sounds perfect! Thanks...

@DamkerngT. direct in what sense? Is it good then?

Damkerng T.

I wouldn't say that it's bad. It's just something I probably wouldn't say to someone I'm not familiar with.

Awal Garg

^But why?

Damkerng T.

I think it's difficult to explain why and when we choose what.

(Or maybe, when we choose what, and why.)

Awal Garg

16:43

Ok, this one- "Hey, I think I know about you, you are ..."?

Or, we can throw away the "about"?

Damkerng T.

For example, I definitely won't start my sentence with "Hey, ..." to a stranger.

Unless, we're on the opposite sides of a road.

Or a hall.

Awal Garg

~~^ Umm, I guess that is acceptable in Indian English...~~ Leave this point. Lets talk generally :)

Damkerng T.

See, that's why I said "It depends."

Awal Garg

The other person is not a complete stranger anyway...

Damkerng T.

@AwalGarg Then, it's okay, I think.

Awal Garg

16:44

Mutual friend, you see.

so then, chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/15814360#15814360 is fine?

5 mins ago, by snailboat

"I think I've heard about you"

Damkerng T.

nods -- I believe so.

Awal Garg

Ok, another one...

What is meant by "Dear so and so"?

Damkerng T.

I haven't heard it before!

Awal Garg

I mean, when is it considered appropriate?

@DamkerngT. c'mon, stop kidding. "Dear Damkerng!"

Anonymous

When writing a letter.

Damkerng T.

16:48

Ah, I see. You meant "Dear X".

Fantasier

Never heard. But seen a lot :)

Anonymous

Yes, so-and-so is a placeholder.

Damkerng T.

Yes, only in letters.

Awal Garg

oh, I mean, whom can I address by "Dear"?

Damkerng T.

Or...

Awal Garg

16:48

@Fantasier XD

Damkerng T.

when you're way more senior than the other.

Anonymous

I don't know. I've never had occasion to write "Dear X"

Anonymous

The only time I've done it was in school when we had to write letters fitting a specific form

Awal Garg

@DamkerngT. umm, I am 16. So you mean, I should not use it?

Damkerng T.

@AwalGarg Probably. Though I've observed that many non-native speakers use dear to mean friend.

Nico

16:49

Here in the UK, it's used very often in formal emails.

Awal Garg

@snailboat school is something that should not be thought off after you leave it. :)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But that's different.

Awal Garg

oh yeah, some people say - "Oh Dear, you are so ..."

Fantasier

That's used as a term of endearment, I think.

Anonymous

@AwalGarg But whether you're in school or not, you should never stop learning.

Damkerng T.

16:50

I'm not sure in which context @AwalGarg is referring to.

Anonymous

The Garg wrote "Dear so-and-so", which is only possible in letters (or in situations where you're pretending to write a letter)

Awal Garg

@snailboat as of the present definition acclaimed by schools, I will stand on what I wrote, and I completely agree with what you wrote :)

@snailboat no, I just meant with the word "Dear".

leave what comes before and after it..

Anonymous

@AwalGarg Then it's not clear what you mean.

Anonymous

"Oh, dear, could you hand me the flashlight?"

Anonymous

"Oh, dear! Heavens to Murgatroyd!"

Awal Garg

16:52

@snailboat umm, yeah, you get the idea..

@snailboat no, not this one

Anonymous

"Dear Harry, please stop poking me in the ribs. Sincerely, the person sitting next to you."

Damkerng T.

lol

Anonymous

"Would you like a refill, dear?"

Anonymous

"To my dear friends, and to those dearly departed"

Anonymous

"And all that I hold dear was lost"

Awal Garg

16:53

@snailboat yes, this one fits in perfectly

Anonymous

Too many contexts for dear with different usages and meaning

Awal Garg

@snailboat I am awfully amazed you can list so many... Hats off!

Damkerng T.

@AwalGarg I think you should avoid this usage in particular. But I might be wrong.

Anonymous

@AwalGarg Some people (usually women) use dear as a casual vocative. The same goes for other informal terms of endearment such as hon (reduced from honey)

Awal Garg

@DamkerngT. exactly, thats what I was thinking. I thought I should take the matter here...

Anonymous

16:55

But it's not something most people do

Awal Garg

so, me saying "Stop it dear" -- is wrong? (to a close friend)

Anonymous

Do you know someone named Dear?

Damkerng T.

If you're 16 and that dear is 5, it's probably okay.

Anonymous

Are you male?

Awal Garg

@snailboat certainly.

@DamkerngT. no, she is elder to me by an year :P

@snailboat -_-

Anonymous

16:56

Are you in a romantic relationship with this person?

Awal Garg

@snailboat no.

Anonymous

Hey, I'm just trying to answer your question.

Damkerng T.

it's getting to the point, I think...

Anonymous

I can't tell if a word is appropriate without context, so I asked for context.

Awal Garg

@snailboat oh, no, Don't get me wrong, I mean... yo, there is the limit to it..

Anonymous

16:57

If you don't want to give me context, then the answer is no: it's not appropriate generally

Awal Garg

@snailboat yeah yeah. Umm, I guess I phrased it wrong... sorry.

no offence. I know you are very helpful and complete knowledge is important..

Anonymous

@AwalGarg Then I wouldn't call her that.

Awal Garg

@snailboat oh, ok.

any better substitute?

Anonymous

Her name?

Anonymous

I mean, call her by her name. Your culture is probably different from mine in some ways, so I can't tell for sure what's appropriate.

Transcript for