English Language Learners

Anonymous

16:00

There are reduced styles such as "headlinese" which characteristically omit articles, but I think they typically would also omit those auxiliaries: "~~The~~ match ~~has been~~ cancelled today by ~~the~~ organizer"

Damkerng T.

nods

Hmm... I've never thought of this kind of sentence before. Trying to come up with a similar (bad) sentence, I got this: This bread is delicious by you.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Erm.

Damkerng T.

(I was trying to think of a good way to explain the problem.)

I think now I can notice that pretty good is not a verb. :D

Anonymous

Hey, you pretty gooded that.

Damkerng T.

It's strange that I didn't notice it the first time I read the OP's sentence.

@snailboat Oh, now it's a verb!

Anonymous

16:08

Yeah, you can now it's a verb anything if you try hard enough.

Damkerng T.

:)

Now it's a verb is a verb too!

Anonymous

Hooray!

Damkerng T.

> Sales are pretty good nowadays.
*Sales have been pretty good nowadays.

I think have been doesn't get along well with nowadays.

> The match has been cancelled today.
The match was cancelled today.
?The match is cancelled today.

I think has been cancelled and was cancelled are fine, but is cancelled sounds odd.

Oh, what a big lizard!

(He just crawled across one of my walls.)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That seems like a reasonable star.

Damkerng T.

(I'm sure Hagu will love it--having a big fat lizard around.)

Anonymous

16:14

But I'd feel more comfortable if I checked to see if it actually co-occurs with the present perfect or not.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. "The match is cancelled today" seems fine to me.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It seems like you read this cancelled as an adjective, I think.

Anonymous

That's right, it's an adjective.

Damkerng T.

> ?The match has been cancelled today by the organizer.
The match was cancelled today by the organizer.

Having by forces us to read cancelled as a verb.

Maybe that's why I think has been sounds a little off.

Anonymous

Yeah, by does that. So "The match is cancelled by the organizer today." is odd

Anonymous

16:19

"The match today has been cancelled by the organizer" is fine.

Anonymous

2

A: Is "intelligence" a countable noun?

Intelligence is not being used as a countable noun in Clever Hans. There's some information ellipted; read the sentence like this: ... animals had an amount or degree of intelligence equal to that of humans. Here, intelligence is qualifiable but not quantifiable. However, it is possible to...

Anonymous

I am decidedly against this analysis.

Damkerng T.

Of ESN's?

Anonymous

They have demonstrated that it's non-count by positing ellipsis of arbitrary material

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You would use 's there

Damkerng T.

16:20

Ah, yes. TYftC!

hellodear2

I don't know why they gave me so much reputation points for free.

+100 on all networks.

Woaaaaa!!

Anonymous

It's called an association bonus.

Anonymous

You get it for earning, I think, 200 reputation on a single site.

Damkerng T.

@hellodear2 I think that's called a bonus. :)

hellodear2

Wopiieeeeeeeee

But why?

Anonymous

16:22

Look up association bonus

hellodear2

I have asked a question on askUbuntu and it got 40 likes

Anonymous

Then you'll have your answer.

hellodear2

in a day and I am rich now. :p

Anonymous

Congratulations!

Damkerng T.

:)

hellodear2

16:23

Hehe. But still not rich like Snailboat Hahaa.. And I can't be that rich :-)

Damkerng T.

In any case, 777 for files and directories is not a good idea, most of the time. :D

hellodear2

LOL.... :-)

That was my interview question

:-)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I see.

hellodear2

I was not able to answer at that time. 2 years back.

Anonymous

Hehe.

Anonymous

16:25

S'octal.

Nico

0777

Damkerng T.

nods

hellodear2

@DamkerngT. why don't u join askubuntu too?

Damkerng T.

I just try to stay away from what I think I might already knew too much. :D

(Though of course, there are a lot more that I still don't know.)

hellodear2

you know much about ubuntu?

Damkerng T.

16:27

But, hey, I popped up in AskUbuntu chat room a few times. :D

Not that much, I think, but I think I can get by with it.

Anonymous

I know enough about Ubuntu.

hellodear2

What all is there in Ubuntu and all

Anonymous

Er?

hellodear2

like in etc , dev folders and all

Anonymous

That's not a very specific question.

hellodear2

16:29

I don't know much about these folders.

Anonymous

Look at hier(7)

hellodear2

what is there in that folders. There are too many files.

Damkerng T.

/dev is for device thingies. :D

Anonymous

If you don't know what that means, go to a command line and type man 7 hier

hellodear2

Which version are you using?

Damkerng T.

16:29

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think /etc is for things they don't know where else to put them into. :D

Anonymous

You are wrong

Damkerng T.

See, I'm potentially wrong. :D

hellodear2

Whoa!! everything is given in that. :-o

Anonymous

> /etc Contains configuration files which are local to the machine. Some larger software packages, like X11, can have their own subdirectories below /etc. Site-wide configuration files may be placed here or in /usr/etc. Nevertheless, programs should always look for these files in /etc and you may have links for these files to /usr/etc.

hellodear2

I am trying to make a bootable pendrive for ubuntu.

Should I?

I want to make it bootable and use it for other things too.

How can I do that?

Damkerng T.

16:31

If you'd like, I think you should try doing it.

Nico

@snailboat With enough use, everything can be made countable (uncountable nouns, adjectives...), don't you think?

Damkerng T.

I'm sure someone out there might have tried doing it.

24 mins ago, by snailboat

Yeah, you can now it's a verb anything if you try hard enough.

I think we can replace that verb with any part of speech. :D

Anonymous

@Nico Yes, you can countify nearly anything.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's a lot harder to coordinator something than to verb it.

Anonymous

> Could you go to the store and get me some eggs bears some flour bears some sugar bears some milk?
> Could you go to the store and get me some eggs, some flour, some sugar, bears some milk?

Damkerng T.

16:35

Oh, that's true!

Fantasier

So you verbed a sentence? Cool XD

Damkerng T.

> Hans the horse was bought in 1900 by Wilhelm von Osten, a retired German schoolmaster, who was convinced that animals had an intelligence equal to that of humans.

I would agree with the author if he changed equal to to different from.

Anonymous

Better than sentencing a verb

Anonymous

"Go!"　←　I guess that verb was sentenced. (To what, I wonder?)

hellodear2

:)

Damkerng T.

16:41

"Run!"

Fantasier

@snailboat You read my mind D: I thought of that a second ago.

hellodear2

I have changed my name to hellodear

but it is not showing here

Though I have made changes to all networks.

Damkerng T.

@hellodear2 Maybe after a little more while.

hellodear2

Really?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Why "Get down!" (said by Arny) popped up in my head?

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Anonymous

16:44

@hellodear2 Don't worry, it just takes a little time.

Damkerng T.

(I think I can imagine how people feel when they have to spell my name.)

Fantasier

I read Arny as Army.

I spent too much time with รด.... (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Reserve_Force_Students)

Damkerng T.

Oh, you went to รด too?

Fantasier

I did!

Damkerng T.

Wait, this makes you a male. :D

Fantasier

16:46

@DamkerngT. That sounds a little creepy. As if before that I wasn't.

Damkerng T.

lol

เขาชนไก่ (the place, not the movie) was fun, wasn't it? :-)

Fantasier

I wouldn't label it as fun. But it's full of memories indeed lol.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Your name is easy to spell for me in Latin letters.

Anonymous

I'm not sure about your last name.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I can guarantee that my full name is longer than Arnold Schwarzenegger.

:)

I don't know why, but Thai people really like long names.

Fantasier

16:51

Because the names aren't Thai I suppose :P

Damkerng T.

That makes sense!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I have noticed this.

Anonymous

My Thai friend's last name is only 9 Latin letters long.

Damkerng T.

That is very short compared to the average Thai last name.

Fantasier

Let me see

Mine is 10

Damkerng T.

16:53

Hah!

Nico

For example: wuttipittayamongkol :)

Damkerng T.

Mine is 17.

@Nico That's even longer than mine. :D

Nico

I think that's one of the longest I've come across

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. And yet, us Americans seem to have a hard time remembering how to spell it. (Not me, though. I can spell it just fine. :-)

Nico

Do they mean anything?

Damkerng T.

16:55

Most Thai names will have a meaning.

Fantasier

@Nico Huh? You know Teepagorn?

Nico

Nope, must be someone else

Fantasier

I see.

Nico

Why do you ask?

Is it a name I should recognise?

Damkerng T.

Oh, Teepagorn Wuttipitayamongkol beats my name easily, so I guess he'd also have the same problem I have with credit cards. :D

Fantasier

16:57

@Nico No, he is not that famous. But he is quite famous in certain subculture.

Nico

en-gb.facebook.com/teepagorn

?

Fantasier

Yeah, that person :)

Nico

wow! I'm impressed with Google.

Fantasier

Santi Santichaivekin

415 8

We're forgetting him :P Santichaivekin

Damkerng T.

That looks like a Thai name. :-)

Nico

17:01

You're lucky that you only use one surname!

Damkerng T.

:)

Nico

In Spain we use two, the first one from the father and the second from the mother.

Damkerng T.

Ahh...

Nico

Women don't change their surname when they marry.

Fantasier

Oh, and how do you fill out forms and such?

Damkerng T.

17:03

Eh, they don't?

(That's an unexpected for me.)

Nico

Spanish forms have space for both surnames

My passport has both.

Fantasier

That's cool xD

Damkerng T.

Neat!

Oh, I think my passport is already expired!

Nico

When I book a plane ticket I have to use both. But I don't remember having problems with this.

Fantasier

Wait. And which surnames does a child receive from his parents?

I mean, both have two, right?

Damkerng T.

17:07

That's a really good question!

curious

Eh, my internet looks strange. Maybe it's because of the rain.

Anonymous

17:26

Huh.

Anonymous

I don't see anything wrong with sleep early.

Anonymous

I do think people generally say go to sleep early.

Anonymous

I mean, that's what I'd suggest people say, because most other people say it.

Anonymous

But sleep early doesn't seem ambiguous or wrong-sounding to me. Just my intuition talking.

Anonymous

Clearly other people disagree!

Damkerng T.

17:27

Perhaps, out of context, it can be ambiguous.

Oh, can sleep late be ambiguous for you?

Anonymous

No

Anonymous

Sleep late means "wake up late".

Damkerng T.

That question made me think that many people seem to think that reading sleep early as a "wake up early" is possible too.

Anonymous

Oh, I doubt it.

Anonymous

I'm not sure how to explain why I doubt it. I have a somewhat amorphous concept in my head which I may be able to give form to later :-)

Damkerng T.

17:31

Ah, fuzzy thingy.

Anonymous

Unfortunately, it's a picture.

Anonymous

So if I try to describe it, it'll be nonsense.

Anonymous

Sleep spreads out in both directions, so sleeping late means you woke up late, because the sleep got longer in that direction.

Anonymous

See? Nonsense :-)

Damkerng T.

No, it actually quite makes sense.

Anonymous

17:32

Hooray! I think

Damkerng T.

Actually, before reading the answers, I thought sleep early should modify the beginning end too.

1

A: A beer in hand vs a beer in a hand

In the right context, any of those could be used as there nothing specifically wrong with any of them. However, this looks a lot like the saying "A Bird in the Hand..." Which I have seen as both "A Bird in hand" and "A Bird in the Hand". "A Bird in a Hand" has a slight bit of ambiguity, as to ...

I upvoted boatseller's answer because I think Enjoy the party with beer in a hand sounds a little off.

Anonymous

I like it better with a, but I don't know that the other version is wrong

Damkerng T.

Strange. I couldn't find a good sentence of "beer in a hand" on Google Books. (But I found one "a bottle of beer in a hand".)

trying COCA...

Anonymous

Errr.

Anonymous

I misread it!

Anonymous

17:42

Beer in a hand sounds silly :-)

Damkerng T.

Yay!

0

A: Passive Extraposition

1a: He thought that supplies were running low. 1b: It was thought that supplies were running low. The meaning of these two are not the same, since 1b does not mention who thought it. You would have to say: 1b: It was thought by him that supplies were running low. As for the second pa...

Hmm...

Fantasier

Mmmm

Fantasier

18:01

I think sentences like this work only with certain kind of verbs. Maybe something to do with thoughts, speech and such? It is said/thought/believed...

Damkerng T.

I think it's an It-cleft, so the "by ..." part should be unnecessary.

Fantasier

Yeah.

Damkerng T.

0

Q: Is this archaic ? What does this "yet" mean?

. The poet, that beautified the sect, that was otherwise inferior to the rest, saith yet excellently wellSource

grammar

Another incomplete sentence from birdman again.

But the full sentence is so long.

Maybe we could ellipsis it properly...

> The poet, that beautified the sect, that was otherwise inferior to the rest, saith yet excellently well: [...].

Fantasier

I'm a little curious about that yet too, but I'm not quite ready to dig through all the dictionaries I have :\

Damkerng T.

I think it's a typical yet.

Fantasier

18:16

Which yet?

Damkerng T.

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/yet

> 6. used for introducing a word or idea that is surprising after what has just been mentioned

Just read saith as sez.

Hmm... probably said, because it seems to be in the past tense.

Fantasier

Damkerng T.

Oh, actually, it was meant to be in the present tense!

Fantasier

It's the first word in the dictionary that I found labelled biblical

Damkerng T.

I didn't know the word, but once I read it, its sound quite made sense.

Fantasier

18:20

Oh, so saith excellently well in contrast to being inferior to the rest?

Damkerng T.

Yes, that's what I thought.

I think otherwise set up the contrast.

Fantasier

That makes sense.

I was wondering. Why is it bad to cross-post a question over sites?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not quite sure about that myself either.

But if a good question could be posted fine on multiple sites, wouldn't that mean that those sites overlap?

I think people want to see each SE stack focuses on its own topic.

Fantasier

Oh, I meant, for example, on ELL and WordReference.

Not on more than one SE site.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's a different question. Frankly, I think I've heard that it's fine.

Fantasier

18:30

Yeah, but I seem to recall that someone thought it's bad (FF, was it?).

Damkerng T.

Oh, really? I didn't know that. :-)

Fantasier

And someone said the act wastes efforts of answerers.

Damkerng T.

That sounds like a fair reason.

Fantasier

Mmm I don't think so.

Damkerng T.

I didn't say that I agree, but I think it's fair for them.

To me, if it's a good question, then it's good.

Fantasier

18:33

I think the asker could receive information by cross-posting, which is usually a good thing.

Damkerng T.

nods

Fantasier

Some answers are misleading; some are good. I think it's good if one has a chance to compare more answers.

Damkerng T.

It looks like all answer sites about English are like this. We can't really trust the answers completely.

Then again, most of information on these sites is invaluable.

(Hmm... strange that I thought of information as singular, and then plural.)

Fantasier

We can rarely completely trust anything about language, I think.

Information is always uncountable if I remember it right.

Damkerng T.

:)

I think saying sites might be the factor.

Is it raining at your place?

Fantasier

18:39

It was. Now it's not

Damkerng T.

Oh, it still is, here.

Poor birds. I think they can't sleep well, because of the rain.

There are several birds using trees around my house as their sleeping places, btw, which is nice. :D

Fantasier

I used to have something like that near my house when I was very young, I guess.

Damkerng T.

Now they are gone?

Fantasier

No, now I moved.

The house was sold long ago.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

I didn't have this kind of thing when I was young. :D

Fantasier

18:47

It's nice :)

Damkerng T.

Yeah! It is!

Some of my neighbors call my garden forest. :)

I guess that's why birds like my trees. :D

Anonymous

19:16

@DamkerngT. I thought it was beer in hand, not beer in a hand

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Modern English speakers understand forms with -th and -st and such, though they don't necessarily know when to use which

Anonymous

@Fantasier At a minimum, you should tell people you're going to cross-post if you do it.

Anonymous

You can cross-post between SE and non-SE sites. The rules allow it.

Anonymous

But it is rather inconsiderate to cause people to duplicate the work of others unknowingly

Fantasier

I see. I'll keep that in mind.

Anonymous

19:28

Most people who cross-post between SE and other sites don't mention it

Fantasier

nods

Damkerng T.

21:19

0

Q: Usage of "against"

What word is more preferable (or even correct) in following context: Application is locked against modifications. or Application is locked from modifications. Or, may be, both usage (against and from) are correct)?

word-usage word-request

I'm trying to find a good answer to this question.

At first I thought against is better.

Now I'm not very sure.

What I'm rather sure is it's better to rephrase the sentence.

> Application is locked against/from modifications.

I think it might be better to write:

> This application is locked, and no unauthorized modifications can be made.

Anonymous

0

Q: You can't spell 'Slaughter' without 'Laughter'

...and yet they are pronounced very differently. /ˈslɔtər/ vs /ˈlɑːftə(r)/ For those who don't read 'pronunciation': Slaw-ter vs Laff-ter Similarly: Homographs (words spelled identically but pronounced differently) run into the same issue for an English language learner. Examples: After w...

pronunciation homographs

Damkerng T.

I think, saying is locked is already good enough. Now, if we want to say more about who or what we don't want to allow access...

Anonymous

It's funny—it was really hard to convince my brain they overlapped in spelling

Damkerng T.

Ahh... pronunciation again. :D

Anonymous

Yeah, putting it in another clause is good

Damkerng T.

21:24

To be exact, homographs again. :)

@snailboat My intuition told me it should be against, but I found a lot of from in use.

Nico

@DamkerngT. How about "This application is locked to prevent modifications"?

Damkerng T.

That sounds good too, but I might drop s, or maybe add any.

(Saying about dropping s, I dropped (incorrectly) an s myself. :-)

Nico

"This application is locked to prevent unauthorised modifications"

Damkerng T.

Oh, this is weird. I think this one is fine without any.

(What kind of language model do I have in my brain?!)

As a learner, I think one good way (it works for me) to avoid the trap is to learn English by Listening/Speaking, rather than Reading/Writing. (As a result, I don't really map the spelling directly to the sounds, I just know "this is how a word would sound like and it should be spelled like this or that" which is helpful in all four tasks: LSRW.) As for why, I usually don't bother to find the reasons, given that there are some. — Damkerng T. 51 secs ago

Maybe useful, I hope.

Oh, I should have mentioned "correction". Someone else will soon, I think (and hope).

Anonymous

21:42

@Nico That's good

Damkerng T.

From another question of the same OP...

Nico

... if someone only listens and speaks, how can they learn to read and write?

Damkerng T.

> Editing is available only in embedded mode.

@Nico Oh, it can be read like that indeed. What I tried to say was "to focus on the Listening/Speaking".

Or enjoy the L-S phase for a while, before getting into the R-W phase.

Anonymous

@Nico Well, you can't.

Anonymous

But you can do one before the other.

Anonymous

21:47

At some point, doing both together is good. I think a popular choice for language learners is Harry Potter. You can get the audiobooks and the paper books, and listen while you read.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... audiobooks are good.

Anonymous

I think this is better than silent reading practice for language learners, because you want to develop a sense for the sound of everything as you read it

Anonymous

You want to acquire the melodies of the language you're learning. Every language has different melodies

skullpatrol

So true^

Damkerng T.

This reminds me...

Nico

21:49

I find difficult to memorise sounds that aren't close to my L1. Spelling helps me remember. Specially, with languages with a more regular spelling than English! :p

Damkerng T.

Obviously, Harry Potter is in there too!

If I could put it bluntly, I would say English's spelling is a mess.

But it's what we all have. :)

Nico

Oh really? Listening to David Beckham to learn English?

Damkerng T.

Eh, I can't find David Beckham in the infographic.

Oh, I saw it!

Except for Barack Obama, I haven't really taken a look at the rest four.

Nico

Well, it's better than Sir Alex Ferguson:

►

:D Mr Bean is in the list, too!

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if he says anything much in his series. :D

I don't know if Sir AF will come to Thailand or not.

Maybe he already did.

Nico

22:03

I have to say that the infographics lists nothing that helps with speaking

Damkerng T.

(to consult on coaching courses with Thai Premier League teams)

@Nico Perhaps not really, but it has "Harry Potter". :D

I think I fall into the same category with those people in the 34% category.

Nico

I'm not sure if it was snailboat who said it before, but I find that watching movies with subtitles helps me more than just listening to radio.

Damkerng T.

I think she said that.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah. It's not at all a shallow orthography. But for most people, that's fine.

Damkerng T.

@Nico I came up with my own technique, which when I explained it to snailboat, she mentioned Shadowing. Though it's not identical to what I do, I think Shadowing works. You might find it interesting.

Anonymous

22:11

@Nico Yes, in-language subtitles are a good thing

Nico

What is Shadowing?

Damkerng T.

looking for a link about it...

Anonymous

Repeating what you hear as soon as you hear it, or if you can, while you're hearing it. (This last requires repetition, of course!)

2

Damkerng T.

Speech shadowing

Speech shadowing is an experimental technique in which subjects repeat speech immediately after hearing it (usually through earphones). The reaction time between hearing a word and pronouncing it can be as short as 254 ms or even 150 ms. This is only the delay duration of a speech syllable. While a person is only asked to repeat words, they also automatically process their syntax and semantics. Functional imaging finds that the shadowing of nonwords occurs through the dorsal stream that links auditory and motor representations of speech through a pathway that starts in the superior tempora...

Very similar to what I do in my own time.

Though I went into another direction, I guess.

Nico

Thx for the idea.

G'night. Going to bed now.

Damkerng T.

22:19

Hazard a guess is a nice expression!

@Nico It's from snailboat. :)

Good night! See you soon!

Nico

Thank you to u2

Damkerng T.

No problem. :D

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