English Language Learners

Anonymous

13:00

So he edited the answer after your comment?

Damkerng T.

Yes.

And I didn't vote that answer, either. :-)

Anonymous

Ah, he added the word "simple".

Anonymous

It appears that I did.

Anonymous

I already forgot that I did.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

I hadn't seen that answer until he suggested it in another post (about D.O vs. I.O, I think).

Oh, I think I remember now. It was the "I looked at him" question.

Anonymous

13:03

I am not happy with his purely semantic definitions of those terms.

Damkerng T.

Me either.

:)

Anonymous

Nor do I understand the definition of a predicate as something "which does the rest of the work"

Anonymous

I'm also not happy with calling a NP inside a for-phrase the "indirect object"

Damkerng T.

That was what I really wasn't happy about.

So, I followed his link, and found a strange definition of "predicate" in that answer.

Anonymous

Traditional grammarians often call the object of the preposition to an "indirect object"

Damkerng T.

13:07

Oh! They do?

Anonymous

Yes, in sentences like "He gave [the book] [to me]"

Damkerng T.

So, they call him in "I looked at him" an indirect object, too?

Anonymous

Nope! To is special. It's Dative.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ahh... that one is fine, to me.

Calling that him an indirect object was what bothered me.

Nico

Hi!

What's the difference betwen dative and indrect object?

Damkerng T.

13:11

Eh? I thought there is dative in Spanish too, isn't it?

Anonymous

Dative: a grammatically distinct case characteristically used to mark the indirect object

Anonymous

But in English, we don't have a dative case.

Nico

I thought they were the synonyms

Anonymous

We used to, back in Old English.

Damkerng T.

I expected it to be something universal among Western languages.

So, it isn't, I think.

Anonymous

13:12

So a lot of people take the label dative and apply it to to-phrases where the object of to has a semantic role aligned with the indirect object role

Anonymous

The term comes up a lot. The Dative Alternation is the relationship between "I gave him a book" and "I gave a book to him"

Anonymous

A lot of other languages have an actual dative case, though.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Nico

@DamkerngT. I was taught what dative was when I had to study latin, and since then I thought it was the same as the indirect object/complement.

Anonymous

Yeah, Latin has a distinct noun form ("case") for indirect objects. As a result of its relatively rich case system, words in Latin can be shuffled around with a fair amount of freedom

Damkerng T.

13:14

nods

Anonymous

In English, there is no distinct noun form for indirect objects.

Nico

~~"£$~! I'm to slow. I can't correct the spelling of synonym.

Damkerng T.

What about Spanish?

Anonymous

Synonym is correct.

Nico

4 mins ago, by Nico

I thought they were the synonyms

Anonymous

13:15

Oh!

Anonymous

I edited it for you :-)

Nico

thx

@DamkerngT. Spanish doesn't inflect nouns to indicate their case (only to indicate if they are singular/plurar male/female).

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think that the dative case has disappeared from (almost?) every romance language

Anonymous

Does Romanian count as having a dative?

Nico

It might

Anonymous

13:18

So you get "prepositional datives" instead, just like English: to snailboat, a Nico

Damkerng T.

@Nico Thanks!

Nico

@snailboat All Slavic languages I know do, and Romanian is strongly influenced by them, so I guess Romanian has a dative.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh!

I think rogermue mentioned dative often enough.

Maybe German still has it.

Nico

I think it does, but I'm not sure.

Anonymous

It has a thing you can call the dative if you want.

Anonymous

13:23

I don't really know German well enough to explain.

Anonymous

I learned a little about it from another comparison between languages, about dative subject constructions (also called simply dative constructions)

Anonymous

Japanese has dative subject constructions.　←　People hate this term.

Damkerng T.

:)

Anonymous

I haven't figured out a term that people won't object to yet.

Damkerng T.

I know one, noun.

Anonymous

13:25

Hah! Context, silly.

2

Damkerng T.

:-)

Nico

On second thought, I think Spanish has some sort of "dative", but only for pronouns. I guess one would say the same about English. Eg she -> her

Anonymous

@Nico Well, there's no accusative-dative contrast.

Anonymous

English lost its distinctive dative case hundreds of years ago.

Anonymous

The accusative is more or less the default case for pronouns.

Nico

13:27

In Spanish there is, although some regions are loosing the distinction.

Anonymous

Used any time you don't have a specific reason to use the nominative

Nico

@snailboat What is a dative subject? it sounds like a pacific war!

Anonymous

@Nico What's... what's a pacific was?

Anonymous

Oh :-)

Nico

an oxymoron

Anonymous

13:30

So, in Japanese, you have nominative, accusative, dative, ablative, instrumental, reciprocal, allative, etc.

Nico

:S

Anonymous

The nominative is the case that is typically used to mark the subject of a clause. Likewise, the accusative is typically used to mark the direct object.

Anonymous

And so forth.

Anonymous

The form referred to as the nominative is given this name because it's the way subjects are most typically marked.

Anonymous

Nominative 〜 subject.

Anonymous

13:31

But, the concepts aren't inextricably linked.

Damkerng T.

@Nico Does :S mean confusion or were you doing a snake tongue? :-)

Anonymous

Sometimes the nominative is used for things that aren't subjects. Sometimes the accusative is used for things that aren't objects.

Nico

@DamkerngT. it meant horror

jimsug

@DamkerngT. I've tried to imagine this expression in real life.

Nico

:p (and this is me kidding!)

Damkerng T.

13:32

:)

Anonymous

Sometime the ablative is used for something other than expressing a starting point for motion!

Damkerng T.

Oh, ablative is new to me! Thanks for a new word!

Anonymous

Sometimes you can even use more than one case. Sometimes you can use either accusative or nominative with no change in meaning. There are also alternations between nominative and genitive, between dative and nominative, . . .

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Some of the less common cases have excellent names.

jimsug

@snailboat These cases have been all but outsourced to prepositions in English, though.

@snailboat With the obvious exceptions of personal pronouns

Damkerng T.

13:35

In this case, my first language has no cases.

Anonymous

I'm particularly fond of perlative.

jimsug

@snailboat And the arguable exception of genitives.

Anonymous

Yeah, English largely lost its case system over the last thousand years

jimsug

Oh, I'm guessing that if we give it another thousand years or so, it'll re-emerge.

Might not be around for that, though :P

Damkerng T.

Ah, language has its own cycles.

jimsug

13:38

Indeed.

Damkerng T.

@jimsug That's still not absolutely definite yet.

jimsug

@DamkerngT. That I won't be around, or that English'll regain cases?

Or both?

Damkerng T.

Gotta go, BBL.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. See you later!

Damkerng T.

@jimsug Both, possibly!

jimsug

13:39

@DamkerngT. cya :)

A-friend

Hi again @Damker. ;)

Thank you very much for your great help

Damkerng T.

14:05

@A-friend No problem. :-)

I think some "batman" and "bad man" sound really, really close to each other. If I cut them out of a sound clip and listened only to the word, I think I couldn't tell some of them. Maybe a lot of them!

Anonymous

14:29

In AmE batman typically has a shorter first vowel and a glottal stop for /t/

Anonymous

(Pronouncing the /t/ as [t] sounds very unusual!)

Damkerng T.

15:16

Inspired by an English proverb, "Venture a great fish to catch a small one." ;-) — Damkerng T. 25 secs ago

Hey, I just invented a new proverb!

Santi Santichaivekin

15:40

How to - - -strike out- - - the text?

"Venture a great fish to catch a small one" what does that mean?

Damkerng T.

~ เอาปลากะพงไปตกกุ้งฝอย

To strike out, you can use three dashes.

Santi Santichaivekin

"Risk big things for small ones? "

Damkerng T.

Yes.

Santi Santichaivekin

Sonuds ~~sucks~~ great!

Damkerng T.

~~Whatda~~ Thanks! :)

Santi Santichaivekin

15:46

By the way, I don't know the proverb เอาปลากะพงไปตกกุ้งฝอย either =b.

Damkerng T.

It's the reverse of what we typically say.

Fantasier

ขี่ช้างจับตั๊กแตน (Ride an elephant to catch a grasshopper) ?

Damkerng T.

Yes, that's similar, too.

Santi Santichaivekin

Oh I know that one^^.

Damkerng T.

16:05

2

Q: The authors would thank

Is this a normal sentence in english? The authors would thank XY for his support .... For me as a nonnative speaker it sounds like there needs to follow a negative part .. if XY hadn't screwed up something else. Personally I think this is correct, 25.000.000 to 100.000 google hits see...

grammar

I think this question is interesting.

Fantasier

Seems fine to me.

Damkerng T.

I thought that too, but I think it's an unusual thing to write (or say).

Fantasier

It sounds formal. Maybe should is more common--should thank...

Damkerng T.

16:22

It does sound formal. This answer, ell.stackexchange.com/a/24136/3281, hints that it might be archaic.

Well, it might not be that archaic.

Fantasier

16:38

Mmm Interesting

hellodear2

17:13

finally my exams are over.

@DamkerngT.

Accept my BIG HELLO everybody!!

:D

Nobody here... :'(

Fantasier

Hello. Nice to meet you. My name is Nobody!

hellodear2

@Fantasier

this is for you on this sentence.

Fantasier

How dare you read that as a joke! It's the truth.

hellodear2

How dare you read my image as a joke? It's the truth.

Fantasier

Even if your image weren't a joke, my statement still applied well :)

hellodear2

17:18

People can be so dumb, I never knew. :D

LOL

go went gone?

Awal Garg

@Fantasier with the exclamation mark or without it?

Fantasier

@AwalGarg Have you ever seen a name with a punctuation mark?

Awal Garg

@Fantasier This one might be first?!

who knows?

How do I say in word - "It is extremely obvious but it is wrong!"

hellodear2

17:35

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 don't try to be a troll, cos I know u are not one

hellodear2

@AwalGarg what is the meaning of troll?

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 something that you are not, and you don't wanna be one :)

hellodear2

no what is meaning of word troll?

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 I didn't understand the question.

hellodear2

17:40

What is the meaning of the word "troll"?

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 First, capitalize the first letter of the first word of your last question.

hellodear2

What is the meaning of the word "troll"?

Awal Garg

!!wiki troll

hellodear2

Why are so strict?

you have good reputation points. :)

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 Again, I didn't understand the question.

1 min ago, by Awal Garg

@hellodear2 First, capitalize the first letter of the first word of your last question.

hellodear2

17:43

Are you gone mad?

You need something to understand the questions here. Ok?

Go and have that thing which can make you to understand the question.

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 It should be - "Have you gone mad?" :P

hellodear2

I am speaking in English which any stupid can understand.

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 sorry, I was trolling :)

hellodear2

Irritating!!

Damn irritating!!

Pissed off!!

Awal Garg

btw, you have more rep than me on ELL!

hellodear2

17:44

you have 1.2k

I have 185

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 its my SE network rep, not ELL rep

It from a variety of communties on SE network I have joined..

mainly from chem.se

hellodear2

Can anyone see cumulative score?

Awal Garg

> Irritating!! Damn irritating!! Pissed off!! really?

hellodear2

of all websites related to SE?

Yes, I was damn irritated at that time.

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 yes, one can, like I see your total rep as 364

@hellodear2 I deserve a badge for that :)

hellodear2

17:47

I am also a baniya.

:p

You can't irritate me. LOL

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 wtf? how did u know that?

kaise pata chale tumhe?

hellodear2

I know about 90% users of this website.

> Tu chali gayi, jaise zindagi chali gyi………
> Chanda se chandni aur suraj se garmi chali gyi…….
> Mere jeene ka nazariya badal gyi……..
> Jaate jaate kuch le gyi to kuch hme de gyi……
> Mujhe apni yaadein aur khud meri jaan le gyi……..:’(((

Awal Garg

but being a baniya is something not everyone (well, none can) can see

hellodear2

This is my written shayari.

how's it? ;)

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 how old are you?

@hellodear2 superb amazing :)

hellodear2

17:49

I am 19.

Awal Garg

I am 16

hellodear2

Your English is better than mine.

Awal Garg

and I have gotta be 17 fast

@hellodear2 it doesn't matter, its completely waste to be good at english

such a shitty language it is

hellodear2

You think that.

It's is not right at all.

You must be good at it.

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 every good english speaker thinks that

hellodear2

17:51

I am not good speaker.

I can understand English well.

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 I think you are good enough to not worry much about it

hellodear2

I can write English well.

I can't speal well.

which city?

Awal Garg

delhi

you?

hellodear2

Lol.

Delhi

:p

Awal Garg

where in delhi?

hellodear2

17:53

Pitampura

you?

Awal Garg

near anand vihar :P

hellodear2

Cool.

Awal Garg

> Pitampura is a residential area in North West Delhi district of Delhi, India. It is a planned neighbourhood developed by the DDA in the 1980s, and Pitampura TV Tower, was built in 1988. Dilli Haat Pitampura is also situated near the TV tower. ...

hellodear2

Don't you know where Pitampura is?

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 no, its hot these days

@hellodear2 ofcourse I know. I know every bit of Delhi

hellodear2

17:55

It is very famous place

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 sure it is

hellodear2

Yup.

Awal Garg

which subject did you take?

hellodear2

I am Mittal.

Awal Garg

great.

is your first name "Aman" by any chance?

hellodear2

17:56

Yes. My parents affectionately call me Aman

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 see, I am magical :)

hellodear2

How did you guess?

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 just a wild guess in the night forest lol

hellodear2

Awal Garg

@hellodear2 leave it, tell me, what subjects did you take? (I am no studies encourager, i hate them, just asking)

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