English Language Learners

:D I've spent too long in the UK. I can't help it!

Anonymous

@Nico Alumnae is the feminine plural

Anonymous

Maybe you could say alumnus if you're referring to Johnson (?)

11:09 AM

@snailboat Here's a finer example of choreography }:>

►

Anonymous

Haha, that's pretty good!

Anonymous

Hahaha

Anonymous

This show looks better than that The Voice show my housemate likes

@snailboat My rusty Latin is showing!

@snailboat Oh, talking about this kind of music reminds me of AKB48!

Anonymous

11:16 AM

@DamkerngT. Oh, the video I linked to doesn't show most of the routine

Anonymous

But you can see it in live performances youtube.com/watch?v=k6TmI9_sgmc

Anonymous

I was thinking along the lines that English does not have a unique instrumental case marker, but I am not sure if this has anything to do with the construction in question jarring one's language expectations or sensibilities. — CarSmack 39 mins ago

Anonymous

True, English has no instrumental case. (What?)

What language has instrumental cases?

Anonymous

Japanese.

Anonymous

11:27 AM

It's marked with で

Ah, I almost said Tcl/Tk.

Anonymous

(Hey, it's fun that I can type hiragana at you now. It's so much easier than romanizing :-)

You can! :)

Anonymous

(Although romanization is still the method of choice for discussing morphophonology)

Instrumental as in "I do something with a tool?"?

I'm not sure I understand CarSmack's comment.

11:30 AM

In Tcl/Tk, sometimes they call introspection instrumentation, which is pretty much the same thing as reflection in other programming languages.

Anonymous

Yeah, sort of like that. "via" "by means of" "by way of"

Anonymous

@Nico Do you remember the ablative from Latin?

yes

Anonymous

It doubles as an instrumental case

Anonymous

In some languages, there's an actual separate instrumental case

Anonymous

11:31 AM

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

I'm confused by CarSmack statement... Oh he doesn't say English has no markers for the instrumental case. He only says that they are not unique. Is that right?

Anonymous

Well, the English case system is mostly gone. But you can, in theory, argue that English has analytic case, and that e.g. to is a dative case marker in "I gave the book to him"

Anonymous

If you were going to go that route and try to assign as many case markers as you could come up with based on prepositional constructions

Anonymous

There'd be no unique marker for instrumental case

Anonymous

Most grammarians say English has very little in the way of case, though

11:34 AM

I think the definition of from reminded him of instrumental; that's all.

Anonymous

You don't typically see a lot of discussion of English case beyond nominative, accusative, and genitive, with some people throwing dative on the list

Anonymous

And some people preferring "subjective" and "objective" for the English nominative and accusative, but I prefer the traditional terms simply because people know them from studying other languages

Oh, I just heard it on TV, "It's the eight of club.", where the was pronounced with a schwa.

Anonymous

I think John Lawler says English has no case at all anymore

Anonymous

Although I'd prefer to analyze English as having at least nominative and accusative for pronouns

Anonymous

11:37 AM

@DamkerngT. S'how I say it. But with an epenthetic glottal consonant

@DamkerngT. Just another factoid, Polish has an instrumental case too.

Anonymous

Though I'd always say clubs, I think :-)

@snailboat How would he explain he, him, his, then?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. He doesn't think it's worth positing a case system for a dozen or so words

@snailboat I probably missed that /s/. :)

Anonymous

11:38 AM

Even if it's phonetically devoiced, plural -s is phonemically a /z/ following /b/

I'm wearing my headphones listening to that choco song, but I heard "eight of club" on TV. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. But you have to explain the alternation somehow, so I don't see why not use case labels

Anonymous

(Somehow I feel like "I don't see why not use case labels" is ungrammatical, but it's what I said, so I typed it anyway :-)

nods -- I think cases are useful in this case.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, lexical priming!

Anonymous

11:40 AM

It's so hard to avoid saying things like "in this case" when discussing grammatical case :-)

Indeed!

Q: My understanding of "could"

2:00 PM

Hmm... Are we becoming ELU?

2

Q: As fast as Or As fast?

He is as clever if not cleverer than his brother. Ranjeet is as fast as or perhaps faster than Rohit. Are both these sentences correct? As per Wren And Martin High School English Grammar And Composition (BY N.D.V. PRASADA RAO S. CHAND) The first sentence is better like this: He i...

3 close votes

2

I could play with my dear friends tomorrow at the seaside, but my sister happened to fall ill. I'll have to stay at home looking after her. I could play with my dear friends tomorrow at the seaside, but this all depends if my mom will allow me to. From my understanding, these t...

:)

4 close votes

:-o

Why the closevotes?

I don't know. I'm not one of those seven.

Though the reason they appear to use are proofreading for the 'as fast' question and duplicate to 'could have been' question for the 'could' question.

If we don't look at the question from the learner's point of view, soon ELL will become ELU which seems to fond of word and phrase requests.

For example, this question: what-to-call-light-food-served-at-cocktail-parties

2:09 PM

I'm not interested in word and phrase requests (unless they are really, really interesting...)

Me either.

They're usually trivial, easy to answer, and doubtfully useful.

Another trend of questions on ELL is "What is the meaning of this: 'ABC def XYZ'?"

@DamkerngT. Huh? For example?

So, we don't like to be a proofreading site, but a translation site?

nothing-nobody-has-done-something

what-does-some-topic-101-mean

[difference-between-snoop-around-and-stick-ones-nose-in-other-peoples-affair](ht‌tp://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/26487/difference-between-snoop-around-and-st‌ick-ones-nose-in-other-peoples-affair)

^I don't know what I did wrong with the URL formatting. :(

is-there-an-equivalent-noun-to-puppy-love-for-the-elderly

what-does-coherent-mental-reckoning-mean-in-this-sentence

@DamkerngT. Why wasn't this one closed for solvable by dictionaries? google.com/…

The asker is not even a learner. Arguably, the question might be useful for some learners.

the-meaning-of-baggage-vs-luggage

2:17 PM

Oh, it's CoolHandLouis, I didn't look at the name.

he-would-have-nothing-of-it

what-is-the-difference-between-image-and-picture

what-does-in-the-wake-of-mean-here

english-equivalent-for-french-se-garer-comme-un-chacal

Hmm I have no problem with meaning-in-context questions. They are quite useful.

But I don't know why translation is acceptable.

^The last one is especially surprising for me. It has got not a single close vote.

[what-is-the-purpose-of-using-dont-instead-of-doesnt-in-this-phrase-but-s](http:‌//ell.stackexchange.com/questions/26382/what-is-the-purpose-of-using-dont-instead‌-of-doesnt-in-this-phrase-but-s)

^And I thought we don't translate lyrics here.

Eh? We still don't? That one is about grammar?

Oh, indeed. :)

What confuses me the most is those two going-to-be-closed-soon questions.

When we're strict we seem to be very strict, when we're relaxed we seem to be okay with almost everything.

Poor learners.

2:25 PM

Hello Everyone.

Hello!

Hello!

The letter has been sent to you on June 7, 2014. Do you think this statement is right?

No.

No.

2:26 PM

I think "was" would have made more sense.

nods -- was is good. <-- my suggestion

Can you suggest.

Can you come up with the correct statement?

The letter was sent to you on June 7, 2014. seems good enough to me.

This is what I thought, but you made it firm. Thanks @Fantasier

I'm sorry if my reply seems to be a little too terse. I know that I'm a bit cranky now.

Anonymous

2:30 PM

Meh. Terse good.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's because different people are driving the closing process, or not driving it at all

nods -- Still poor learners.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Why didn't that turn into a link?

That is another mystery of the day!

Anonymous

A-ha

Anonymous

2:33 PM

[what-is-the-purpose-of-using-dont-instead-of-doesnt-in-this-phrase-but-s](http:‌//ell.stackexchange.com/questions/26382/what-is-the-purpose-of-using-dont-instead‌-of-doesnt-in-this-phrase-but-s)

Anonymous

what-is-the-purpo se-of-using-dont-instead- of-doesnt-in-this-phr ase-but-s

[blah blah blah](http:‌//ell.stackexchange.com/questions/26382) -- ehhhh

See? It's mysterious!

Anonymous

No, it's not.

test

Gotcha

2:34 PM

still don't get it...

Anonymous

Chat added U+200C U+200B because it was a long line with no spaces, to allow wrapping on thinner screens. That broke its own link detection because the code's written wrong

Anonymous

When Fantasier edited the line, it already had those inserted, and they remained even after the eit

Oh! So the line was too long!

Anonymous

But when Fantasier started with a short link, it worked

Anonymous

Because they didn't need to be inserted

Anonymous

2:35 PM

@DamkerngT. Or more precisely, had too many characters in a row without a space

nods

Anonymous

I could edit Fantasier's message and make the link work right now

Anonymous

By removing the invisible characters in the URL.

Anonymous

Long story short, chat is broken. Business as usual. :-)

2:49 PM

Hello Damkerng!

How are you doing?

Hello! I'm okay. :)

(Just a little cranky today.)

I guess you have a problem to discuss with us here. :)

Yes

Here we go!

I need to understand when should I avoid the past perfect tense? Please check the below examples and let me know. Was it possible to avoid the past perfect tense in the both sentences?
I went to the market but the shop had already closed.
I called him but my father had already called him.
Can I write these sentences without the past perfect tense? if yes then meaning will be same or not?
I went to the market but the shop already closed.
I called him but my father already called him before me.

Oh! That's a lot.

Please take your time.

Anonymous

@user62015 The first two are fine. The last one is okay. I might say "…but the shop was already closed"

2:55 PM

That's great.

But could you please let me know, when we can avoid the past perfect tense and when we have to use it!

nods +1 to what snailboat said.

Anonymous

No, I'm afraid that's too complex a topic to answer here.

I read novels and I get confused.

Anonymous

StoneyB wrote a long post about it, though.

I agree but I could not understand that.

2:56 PM

Reading and writing are two different things.

Anonymous

Maybe you'd be better off reading some more and getting an intuitive feel for it

Reading is much easier.

I have been doing it and of course I will keep it going.

That's great!

Do you have problems with the past perfect when you read novels?

Yes.

As I posted a new sentence on the website.

Anonymous

2:59 PM

Can you link to your question here?

The write could use the past perfect tense. Why she avoided it.

Sure.

Anonymous

Is it an American author?

Is it this one? ell.stackexchange.com/q/24931/3281

The writer has written "She studied me a moment then stood up and ran over to me. "

Yes, she is.

I think it should have be "She had studied me a moment then stood up and ran over to me. "

Yes.

Okay, let's check this out:

3:01 PM

Sure.

> She studies me a moment, then stands up, and runs over to me.

How does that sound? Understandable?

Anonymous

@user62015 It's better without the past perfect.

Please wait. Let me understand what Dam just sent.

Yes. It is completely in the present simple.

This is the point. I could not understand that day.

Maybe I can make it today!

Do you think I need to change anything in that version?

Let's tweak it a little...

> She studied me a moment, then stands up, and runs over to me.

Which version do you prefer?

Please wait. I am trying to understand your point.

I have never understood anything like your example.

3:06 PM

Take you time. I'm here. :)

Thanks.

Thanks for waiting.

:)

Let me cross check first one.

You sent this "She studies me a moment, then stands up, and runs over to me".

By this first time I will understand that it happens on a daily basis.

She studies him, then she stands up and then she runs.

Hmm... probably using the simple present might not work for you.

Last time also I got confused.

And I think I am also doing the same thing.

3:11 PM

I see it now. It's because you always read the simple present as habitual activities.

Present Simple is often used in narrative, i.e. in storytelling.

Okay. I apologize. Maybe I am not making sense, please go ahead. I am completely with you to make sure I will understand this time.

Yes.

Oops, I'm sorry.

I read the present simple in newspapers

It's probably easier for you to think of narration (or storytelling) as its own thing.

3:15 PM

Fine, so we can also use the present simple to tell a story. Is it the point you have been trying to make?

I assumed that you were already familiar with storytelling in the present tense.

That was where I went wrong, I think.

Fine. Did I understand your point now?

I'm not sure. You tell me. Do you understand how storytelling works?

Maybe. Any how can you give me a little hint?

It's like when you read storybooks or watch movies.

One thing happens, then another thing happens, then yet another thing happens, and so on.

3:22 PM

Okay.

Please go ahead.

Let me see if I can find a good example story for you.

Sure.

I am here. waiting for you.

Everyone is welcome to help @user62015 too. :D

I might need to take a little more while.

Sure.

I am here.

►

Here is a good example of storytelling in the present tense.

Can you see the video?

3:32 PM

Thanks for your effort.

I think, I need to download it.

Please wait.

It seems it is a long video.

nods <-- you can imagine me nodding a few times. :)

Will you be here after twenty minutes?

I need to watch it out.

You don't need to watch the whole thing. I picked it so we can walk through some parts of the story together.

I think Duke has its text here: cs.duke.edu/csed/data/lorax2

Let me check.

I think I understood the point.

Please go ahead now.

Let's consider the first two paragraphs.

> At the far end of town
Where the Grickle grass grows
and the wind smells slow and sour when it blows
and no birds ever sing excepting old crows...
is the Street of the Lifted Lorax.

And deep in the Grickle grass , some people say,
if you look deep enough you can still see, today,
where the Lorax once stood
just as long as it could
before somebody lifted the Lorax away.

3:39 PM

Sure.

I believe that it's not too difficult for you.

Let me have a quick look.

Please wait.

I am completely in.

(You don't really have to understand every word now. We're going to focus on the sequence of what happens.)

Good. :)

Please go ahead. I understood the first two paragraphs.

So the first paragraph is about the street, right?

3:41 PM

Yes.

It's about the Street of the Lifted Lorax.

Yes.

which is at the far end of town, where the Grickle grass grows, and so on.

I understood it completely.

These are all in the present tense.

3:42 PM

Please go ahead.

Yes.

> And deep in the Grickle grass, some people say, ...

Sure.

Still in the present tense. :)

Yes.

So we just have to understand it (the story) as one idea after another.

3:44 PM

Yes.

The only thing that happened before this story so far is this part: the Street of the Lifted Lorax.

Yes.

Let's move on the the third paragraph:

> What was the Lorax ?
And why was it there ?
And why was it lifted and taken somewhere
from the far end of town where the Grickle grass grows ?
The old Once-ler still lives here.
Ask him, HE knows.

SUre.

What was the Lorax? And why was it there?

3:46 PM

I understood it.

These are questions asked after the first two paragraphs.

Please move forward.

Yes.

This is important.

Why does the author use the past tense?

The Author was telling about a street. The street she mentioned that street is still there and she also mentioned about a Lorax but the Lorax is dead now.

So street is still there so it comes in the present tense

But the Lorax is gone so it came in the past tense.

The street condition is still true.

Lorax isn't really dead yet. He was just lifted away. :)

3:52 PM

Hahahaha.

But you get the main idea right.

Thanks.

Please go ahead.

Let me recap. (I will reword the story a little, to focus on the tenses.)

> This is the Street of the Lifted Lorax.

> It is at the far end of town, where the Grickle grass grows.

Sure.

> If you look deep enough (in Grickle grass) you can still see, today,

> where the Lorax once stood before somebody lifted the Lorax away.

3:53 PM

Yes.

We are on the same page.

> What was the Lorax? And why was it there?

> And why was it lifted and taken somewhere?

> The old Once-ler still lives here.

> Ask him, HE knows.

Okay.

> This is the Street of the Lifted Lorax.

Okay.

This tells us that Lorax was lifted before the story.

And in the story, there is this street.

3:55 PM

Yes.

> It is at the far end of town, where the Grickle grass grows.

This tells us where the street is.

Yes.

> If you look deep enough (in Grickle grass) you can still see, today, where the Lorax once stood before somebody lifted the Lorax away.

Yes.

It is clear.

Go ahead please!

I think it's clear to you why they use stood and lifted.

3:59 PM

Yes.