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04:50
does anyone know of a good resource to learn the Haar measure and work on some applications of it in a quantum information context
e.g. actually computing the haar average of a moderately complicated function
 
3 hours later…
07:45
08:17
@Slereah new imperial units
4 hours left 'til @ACuriousMind bounty expires
Here's your chance kids at home
do u study multiple fields everyday or just one field
like physics, math, philosophy, history
@ACuriousMind ur post says the observables are integrals here. how is this different from normal qft where observables r integrals of densities?
stackexchange shud hav a system where bounty never truly expires
just move the question to a secondary bounty page after 7 days
points wud not go to waste that way
08:57
@Slereah you mean the research grant
@RyderRude the point of bounties is to draw attention. If it worked like that we'd be packed with bountied questions and old bounties wouldn't even come up at the top
You may think of bounty as an advertisement
Do you get billboards for free? :P
@Mr.Feynman this is y i proposed a secondary bounty page where u dump the expired bounties. these will no longer get attention but the answeres cant still.be rewarded
it's like when u put a bounty on someone's head, it is for forever, can be collected by anyone anytime
09:22
@ACuriousMind @SillyGoose I just checked the Italian wiki page of American Coffee (in the sense you mean) and at the beginning of the article there is:
> Nella lingua italiana con "caffè americano" (talvolta indicato come caffè all'americana) si può però intendere anche il caffè come nelle preparazioni americane, cioè un caffè filtro lungo.
> In Italian language "American coffee" (sometimes called "American-style coffee") may also mean drip coffee, though.
(This would be the translation)
I never doubted you
@Mr.Feynman do u study multiple fields everyday or one field?
@Slereah
multiple fields would be like studying books on different things
@ACuriousMind And I never doubted that you'd never doubt me :P
I like solving conflicting notations
@RyderRude man you asked that above and I ignored the question :P
I only study Math on Physics in my life
but different math on physics topics in the same day?
Though my approach to videogames or anime lore is not unlike studying
@RyderRude depends on the period. If I'm studying for exams I get focused on something specific. For example now I'm a GR-only boy
09:29
it's like a parallel computing approach vs serial computing approach
@Mr.Feynman oh
GR and DG
i only take one book and finish it/not finish it
@ACuriousMind what about u?
@Mr.Feynman cool
Slereah seems to be studying both history and kinematics
@RyderRude I wish I could only use one book
i havent tried the other approach..how does that work?
I've been consulting many: Carroll, Wald, H&E, Townsend's review of BH, some old articles by the same usual guys (Thorne, Penrose, Hawking, Carter...)
09:34
oh
do u look up some random topic from all sources , or look up topics sequentially from all sources?
there is a sequence to topics. like parallel transport comes after vectors
I look restlessly everywhere until I find the piece of information missing
Then I ask here
Then I start looking for old ass papers
10:03
coherent states returned to my life @ACuriousMind
@Slereah I've seen a definition of the EH as the boundary of the closure of the chronological past of future null infinity. Most sources use instead the causal past, anything to say?
@Mr.Feynman This guy? youtube.com/@townsends
@Mr.Feynman I forget if $\partial I^- = \partial J^-$
It is probably true in most cases of interest
Oh yeah it's false in general
ie. Minkowski minus a point
or wait is it
@Slereah I should check Townsend's notes but it was my prof
prop. 2.17 yeah
Those two definitions are equivalent
Thanks!
10:13
I was confusing it with whether $J \setminus I = \partial J$
or something like that
10:49
The property of having massive particles immobile is apparently not a property unique to Aristotelian spacetimes, it is also true of Carrolian ones
The nuance being that in Aristotelian spacetimes, massless particles are constrained to the spacelike hypersurface
11:00
massive particles immobile? does the EoM simplify to dx/dt=0?
Aristotle would have had a moving particle tend to come back to rest
goodmorning
well it is already midday here actually
@Slereah what is an Aristotelian spacetime?
@RyderRude Pretty much
@ekardnam_ Spacetime where the motion group is just rotations
Particles can move but only if they are not free
ooh that makes sense
11:20
i also hav an idea to model Aristotle's physics. u define the geometry of spacetime to be a 0 connection. so the geodesic eqn is $\frac{d x^{\mu}}{d\lambda}= v^{\mu} (x^{\mu})$. then we can define a sort of covariant derivative $\nabla=\frac{d}{d\lambda} - v^{\mu}$. then non geodesics r given by $\nabla (x^{\mu}(\lambda))=q^{\mu}$
to make particles come to rest in absence of interactions, u define the 0-connection to be a time-like vector field in some preferred rest frame
11:40
The 0 connection is just defined by the clock form
11:55
It is kind of a different definition though
The "Aristotelian mechanics is a Klein pair of the Euclidian group and rotation group" and "Aristotelian mechanics is a 0-connetion" don't really mesh
The former still has dynamics depending on acceleration
12:08
@SillyGoose I was wanting to give some trivial arguments. Your question is actually somewhat ambiguous. There are some processes that violate superselection rules, and then they cannot happen. That is one reading of your question. If your process can happen under SM, then there must be a (not necessarily unique) simplest diagram. This is because all predictions of SM come out of S-matrix, and Feynman diagrams are how they get in the S-matrix in the first place. The series is ordered in terms of
number of vertices, and the complexity of diagrams rises dramatically with number of vertices; so if your process obeys all the conservation and all the superselection rules, it will be utterly insane if it cannot happen.
@ACuriousMind I hope I havent...
In section 2.3 of abatanasov.com/Files/Supersymmetry.pdf, how is the 2nd anitcommutation relation consistent? If bosonic operators $B$ are in $g_0$ and fermionic operators $F$ in $g_1$, surely this means that $\{F_i, F_j\} \in g_2$ since $1+1=2$ however $g_2$ doesn't even exist
unless we have i+j modulo 2 or something but surely if that were the case it would be stated everywhere eg. on wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graded_Lie_algebra etc
12:25
@naturallyInconsistent They weren't asking "For every process allowed by the SM, is there a diagram?", they were asking "For every input/output combination that satisfies all conservation laws, is there a diagram in the SM that mediates that process?"
presumably this is an attempt to determine how seriously Gell-Mann's totalitarian principle should be taken
@DIRAC1930 It is stated everywhere
what do you think the algebra being $\mathbb{Z}/2\mathbb{Z}$-graded means?
So is this $i+j$ meant to be the composition of the $\mathbb{Z}_2$ elements, i.e. $1$ is bosonic, and $-1$ is fermionic, therfore $[X,X] \in g_1$, $[X,Y] \in g_{-1}$, $\{Y,Y\} \in g_{1}$?
I don't know what you mean by -1
i.e. $\mathbb{Z}_2 = \{-1,1\}$
@ACuriousMind But the last part is somewhat answering that.
$\mathbb{Z}_2$ has exactly two elements, 0 and 1
the bosonic part is labeled by 0, the fermionic part is labeled by 1, and so the commutator of two fermionic operators is in 1+1=0
12:32
You know very well that you can also write Z2 as -1 and +1 in a multiplicative group
Yes, when reading the definition, I didnt realise that the $i+j$ was reference to $Z_2$. I just thought it was a general expression and I didn't realise the $0$ and $1$ refered to elements of $Z_2$
@Slereah yes, but not in the context where you write the group operation additively as i+j :P
Now it makes sense why it's called a $\mathbb{Z}_2$ graded algebra lol
I was wondering why they were calling it that lol
So how do we know that the 3rd expression should be a commutator and not an anticommutator?
12:53
I have a feeling the way the quantum chemists do QM must be quite different from the way physicists do it. I haven't studied "physics" side of QM, but I've come at it from a chemistry angle
I rly don't like what they do there
Or perhaps I don't understand it deeply
they have different priorities
13:22
Apparently Alexandrian era mathematics was just done by a bunch of nerds
No schools are associated with them and no official organization
Is there any era where mathematics is not done by nerds
just a bunch of nerds sending their books to each other
@DIRAC1930 look at the definition of the graded bracket again
in the great orthogonality theorem, we hav $\sum D^{\dagger} (g) ^i_j D(g) ^k_l$
when j=k, this is suposd to be $\sum \delta ^i _l$
but this only works we suddenly say there's Einstein summation in $D^{\dagger} ^i_j D^j_l$
we need to do Einstein summation over j to get $\delta$
but there was no Einstein summation in the original expression $D^{\dagger}^i_j D^k_l$
how can u suddenly get einstein summation by substituting $j=k$?
13:41
Ah okay thanks
"Votive offerings in the Greek world as in other ancient cultures could naturally take the form of intellectual offerings representative of the intellectual performance of the dedicat. [...] But this was a different case from ours, because Ptolemy did not dedicate the astronomical instruments through which he achieved those results, but the (shortened) text itself where the theory is explained. This sort of offering is indeed rare outside from mathematics."
Offering my thesis to the gods
"Xenagoras is said to have inscribed his calculation of the height of Mount Olympus at the Pythium there. We read in Porphyry's Life of Pythagoras that Pythagoras' son Arimnestus dedicated a bronze tablet containing "seven knowledges" to Hera in his temple at Samos."
It is a little cocky imo
Calculations so good they are worthy of the gods
sorry i think the book says we r additionally summing over the j values after setting j=k
so we r introducing einstein summation
is this correct
@Relativisticcucumber and @SillyGoose Congratulations!
"Willingly would I burn to death like Phaeton, were this the price for reaching the sun and learning its shape, its size, and its substance"
Hardcore astronomy
14:00
It's crazy how the old nobel prize winners are of a completely different calibre to the new ones
With the exception of maybe Penrose
The modern nobel prize winners in physics tends to be more experimentalists than theorists I get the impression
but maybe I am wrong
Didn't count them
This one en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_A._Glaser is a Julian Schwinger impersonator
14:16
@DIRAC1930 in what way
@DIRAC1930 why not penrose
I meant that Penrose and the old nobel prize winners are miles above most of the modern ones
oh
1900s were the times of new physics. so the old winners were great at both physics and philosophy of science
the new ones are experimentalists like Slereah says. they dont care about philosophy
Thats a good point
@DIRAC1930 have you considered that you only know the "old ones" that left a lasting impression? I'll bet that if you go at the actual list of physics nobelists from the early days there'll be a bunch of names there you aren't thinking of with your "different caliber" claim
people in the past weren't different, we simply merely remember fewer of them
yeah really if you look at the nobel prizes a lot of the early ones you won't know at all
How do you feel about Gabriel Lippmann, inventor of color photography
or Charles Édouard Guillaume, who... worked on metals?
14:30
Dalén, "for his invention of automatic valves designed to be used in combination with gas accumulators in lighthouses and buoys" - man, that sure is a level of physics no one else reaches today
He was the equal of Albert Einstein
we can say that the best of the past winners are better than the best of modern winners, becuz 1900s were the times of drastically new physics
for e.g. a new winner confirmed Bell's results. this is one of the best achievements of modern times but u cant compare this to special relativity
no we can't
what on earth does "best" even mean here
@RyderRude I don't think it's just due to their being drastically new physics at the time. If you read some of the textbooks from Pauli or Schrodinger, their knowledge of theoretical physics from areas that had nothing to do with what they won their nobel prize for is crazy
pretty much all of the drastically new physics got done with before 1980 (qcd and stuff)
@DIRAC1930 which topics do u mean? older physicists are famous for their philosophy books
14:39
I think most of the modern physicists of Schrodinger, Pauli etc. calibre do work in things that don't get nobel prizes anymore
@ACuriousMind it means Feynm- YBDGRBDVJSHDVVRVS
Physics was a less specialized field back then mostly I think?
i am not familiar with this. can u give examples @DIRAC1930
That fictitious ACM in my head is getting entitled
Feynman is overrated
14:40
Is he? :P
@DIRAC1930 I'm confident there's plenty of physicists today with similar breadth of knowledge, but the field is simply orders of magnitudes bigger today than it used to be, so individuals stand out less
I mean, people like Kitaev, Witten, Maldecena etc. are probably just as smart as the pioneers of QM with the exception of Dirac probably
I mean, our most precise (and broken) model is based on path integrals and perturbative calculation of Feynman diagrams
Also rly being a physicist at all was just much rarer back then?
It just irks me that Dirac did so much of Feynmans work (that he essentially didn't really add much to) and that Feynman didn't credit Stuckelberg for a lot of things he stole
14:42
This was before universities were really open to people outside of the upper class
@Slereah in the 70s there were like 5 people doing GR?
Carter, Penrose, Hawking, Thorne and Bardeen
@Mr.Feynman Nah there wera a bunch back then
5 people doing GR was the Eddington joke
All damn articles are from those guys
@Slereah after he and Einstein died none were left :P
> After Albert Einstein’s paper had been published, rumor has it that Sir Arthur Eddington, one of the propagators of the theory, was one of the only three persons in the world to understand it. When asked about the rumor during a casual conversation, Eddington allegedly paused for a moment, then replied: “I’m trying to think who the third person is.”
Wait, is Eddington a propagator?
14:44
There were a bunch of people doing GR but you probably haven't heard of them
GR isnt even hard to get. i think most university people know GR today
Synge was one of the big GR guy in the intermediary era
But you had people like Matte, Buchdahl, Nariai, Taub, Schwinger, Milner, Finkelstein, etc
Most of them aren't really remembered
@DIRAC1930 yeah. for e.g. the path integral idea was of Dirac I think
Taub's the nut guy
14:46
@ACuriousMind No need for slander
I'm sorry, I meant "the NUT guy" :P
@Slereah I was joking because this week I've been studying BH and I keep finding their articles all over the place
Like even Heisenberg. Even though he went a bit crazy in later years, he was still producing work that most people could never have even come up with
I don't know why Taub got to have his full name in that spacetime
Taub-NUT is just fun to say
14:47
@Mr.Feynman They were pretty influential
@DIRAC1930 how do you know tho
Although in a sense I am astonished. Today Physics is so broad that unless you do on purpose, you don't end up reading the same guys' papers all the time
counterpoint: all Heisenberg did was multiply some matrices together
When you look in detail at a lot of theories that are famously hard you start to see how a lot of them were constructed with pretty well established ideas
Heisenberg's revolutionary idea was that one shud only talk about observables in physics
this is a drastic idea to come up with
@ACuriousMind People didn't know what matrices were
14:49
(if we can idolize them without any basis in fact, it should follow we can also disparage them without any basis in fact)
@ACuriousMind Newton was trash, I could do Newtonian mechanics when I was 18
@Slereah I'm not being serious
the entire world was talking about orbits of electrons when heisenberg made this idea
@Mr.Feynman I think that's not true, you just don't notice it because QM and GR were very niche fields when they started
If you looked at topics that were actually in vogue back then you'd probably see a bunch of random people
older physicists were doing paradigm shifts, something which newer physicists dont hav the opportunity for
14:50
Sorry I was talking about a book Heisenberg wrote about some crazy field theory in his later years
That's probably it, the papers that survived the trial of time were the most relevant ones and I'm still at 1960s physics so...
In the 1910's physicists were mostly doing like EM and material science and thermodynamics
QM was just a very niche theory
@DIRAC1930 oh. einstein was also working on a field.theory later in life
we dont get to hear about these failed theories
einstein's field theories post GR are failed theories
einstein also made the PBR objection which was ultimately baseless
but he never got to hear about Bell's results
I'll be working in fields too one day
Wheat fields
14:57
@Mr.Feynman that's where it comes in handy if you know how to work with sheaves and stalks!
Also germs
@ACuriousMind I had a "that's not a DG pun" ready after this message but I decided not to send it :P
Differential geometry pun (?)
why is it not a DG pun?
you can do DG with sheaves
15:02
this message refers to mine
After mentioning wheat fields
oh, I understood that, there's no wheat in math, that'd be silly
What about the Wheat algebra
What I'm trying to say is that I'd anticipated that reply
there's lots of wheat in elementary school math
@Slereah is it related to tractor bundles
15:04
sorry I have a very basic question on linear algebra, idk im tired i'll just drop it here
@RyderRude what kind of elementary school do you know? We didn't use wheat at my place :P
i meant problems involving wheat @Mr.Feynman
I used apples
from what i'm learning from my algebra prof: if something doesn't exist but an algebraist wants it to, they'll define it.
the trace of the composition of two linear maps $A$, $B$ can be computed taking the trace of the product of two matrices representing $A$ and $B$ also in different basis?
it seems so from the cyclicity of the trace but it also seems a bit weird
15:06
@ekardnam_ I don't think so
What's invariant is $a_{ij}b_{ji}$ in the same basis
If you consider them in two different basis, what would a transformation be? How do you deal with two different basis?
@ekardnam_ I think you should probably try writing out whatever proof you have in mind explicitly, because this is definitely not true: take the matrix $A$ that has a 1 in the upper left corner and zeroes everywhere else. it is its own square, so the trace of $A^2 = A$ is 1. If you permute the basis vectors for the second $A$ (which is an allowed change of basis), the product of the two matrices will be zero, which does not have trace 1.
yeah, if u take the product in different bases, then u r effectively multiplying different matrices have nothing to do with A and B
@Mr.Feynman but say $A_1$ is the matrix representing $A$ in a basis $b_1$ and $B_2$ represents $B$ in the basis $b_2$ then $B_1 = P_{12} B_2 P_{12}^{-1}$ represents $B$ in the basis $b_1$ but then $tr(A_1 B_1) = tr(A_1 P_{12} B_2 P_{12}^{-1}) = tr(A_1 B_2)$
@ekardnam_ ...how did you get the $P$ and $P^{-1}$ to cancel using only cyclic permutations?
right
I said I was tired
@ACuriousMind i kinda thought of this counterexample already
i just wasn't thinking much with the permutation of the trace
15:17
lets discuss free will
let's not
2
@RyderRude i get sad what i think of that
why? @ekardnam_
because of the free will theorem
is isothermal compression slower than quasi-static in general?
Or I guess it depends on the system and how fast it can gain/lose heat
15:24
guys in C-T it is stated that if I consider (single-particle) $\mathbf{J}^2,J_z$ and I take a pair of eigenvalues $m,j$ than to this pair we can associate an eigensubspace whose dimension is denoted is $g(j,m)$. Do you agree with this statement? I thought that once we specified $j$ then the correspondent eigensubspace is of dimension $2j+1$, but I don't quite get why there would be ulterior degeneracy
@ekardnam_ it looks interesting..i will have to study it..thanks
I dislike the usage of "well-defined" in this context. It's not helpful imo. Well definedness has a meaning in math but in the context of quasi-static volume change I have no idea what it means.
@RyderRude id rather not if i were you. it is pretty sad
Basically, I need to consider $\vert k,j,m \rangle$ instead of $|j,m\rangle$ as I've done so far
so this proves that if free will exists, then outcomes of measurements are not deterministic. whats the sad component @ekardnam_
15:27
@RyderRude no it proves that if free will exists then elementary particles have to have free will too
under a couple of assumptions
where $k$ is the eigenvalues associated to a third commuting variable etc etc. How is this possible?
the definition of "free will" here is "future is not a function of present information"? @ekardnam_
@RyderRude i do not recall anymore, you need to read the paper
15:28
@Obliv It means that there is a single number called "pressure" that you can assign to the system
@ekardnam_ thankss
this notion of pressure as a property of the system would be ill-defined if the pressure was a function of position
@ClaudioMenchinelli It just depends on that system you're looking at - there is no guarantee that every system has only a single copy of the irrep for each $j$ value.
sure, for a single particle there's only one $2j+1$ subspace for each integer $j$, but e.g. the 3d rigid rotor has higher degeneracies
Can't pressure be an emergent property from knowing everything about the phase space, so we consider the pressure on one side of a container to be the total momentum of the particles in contact with that side at any given time? I don't think it makes sense in a continuous way though
Would have to be discrete phase-space
wait could you explain further, I havent grasped the meaning of your last sentence
old school astronomy
15:34
@ekardnam_ i also have a really nice thought experiment about free will. suppose there is a deterministic block universe with time travel such that past cant be changed. and u know that something really bad might have happened yesterday. do u choose to time travel to make sure it doesnt happen?
this thought experiment reveals free will even in this universe
@ACuriousMind But I can restrict to the case $g(j,m) = 1$ for every pair of $j,m$ without loss of generality. Sakurai never mentioned this stuff
@ClaudioMenchinelli what do you mean "without loss of generality"?
I can study addition of angular momenta under this assumption
@Obliv in thermodynamics, over a macroscopic range, they assume pressure is constant and so on. This can be refuted ofcourse, if gravity is in the pic, then there will be a pressure gradient- but still, over reasonable ranges, like 1 m^3, its constant. its one of those equilibrium things.
15:37
but not all of physics is the study of addition of angular momenta :P
sometimes you need to know e.g. how large the degeneracy of a certain energy is
this experiment is really counter intuitive because past cant be changed here, so why.shud choice matter
and then it matters whether your space of states contains one copy of $\mathbf{3}$ or $g(1)\neq 1$ of them
@Obliv this is what is done in kinetic theory of gases. assume every gas molecule is a point mass, that have no internal interactions except collisions, and each gas molecule on avg traverses vast distances before it hits another one, and so on. you can derive an expression for pressure then, through a time average
you will need to invoke "randomness" conditions though
@ACuriousMind yep, I understand. That's also why I was scared and thought I'd have to reconsider what I had studied so far from the start
@Obliv usually what they do is, given a speed range $v$ to $v+dv$, what is the probability that some molecule is moving in the direction of $\theta-\theta +d\theta$, and $\phi-\phi +d\phi$, and they say it is $\frac{d\Omega}{4\pi}$, the solid angle of a small patch, over the total solid angle
ie, no direction is preffered basically
15:44
@nickbros123 interesting, thank you!
for a nice derivation check out zemansky, 5th ed, chapter on kinetic theory (must be under the ideal gas section)
twiddles thumbs what is this step lol
how do we get from 1.38 to 1.39
I'm not sure what's unclear about it
a quantity whose initial values are equal to its final values is constant, that's what constant means
OH
they shud write "VT^{f/2}" is constant in time
16:10
I can't understand this: I wanna add to angular momenta $j_1,j_2$ (my initial kets, wrt the following set of commuting operators $\{J_1^2,J_2^2,J_{1z},J_{2z}\}$ is $|j_1,j_2,m_1,m_2\rangle$
Now I wanna switch to this set $\{J_1^2,J_2^2,J^2,J_z\}$ (the first two operators will be omitted to obtain a ket of the form $|J,M\rangle$). If I fix $j_1,j_2$ then I know that $M = m_1+m_2 \in \{j_1+j_2, j_1+j_2-1, \cdots, -j_1-j_2\} $
The problem is: how do I know what values can $J$assume given $j_1,j_2$?
is there an easy way to get the answer?
this is honestly incomprehensible : (
@ClaudioMenchinelli, forgive me for my ignorance: are what youre reading in the whereabouts of term symbols and angular momentum and spin coupling?
if coupling = addition yes
yeah, ive seen them do $L+S$, and call it coupling. ive seen this in chemistry, but unfortunately I dont know enough qm to properly understand this rn
my professor used the vector analogy, which I'm not particularly fond of, C-T goes absolutely berserk as I've just showed hahaha+
I might ask a question: this seems a pretty good topic
my professor said JJ coupling is not necessary until atomic number 60+
16:22
I mean, I'm pretty sad: basically this proof is the only problematic thing, but it's necessary, in fact if you know the values taken by $J,M$ once you fix $j_1,j_2$ you can prove that there's a one-to-one correspondence between a pair $$ (J,M)$$ and a vector belonging to the subspace $\mathcal{E}(j_1,j_2)$
@ClaudioMenchinelli The answer is that the possible $J$ lie between $\lvert j_1 - j_2\rvert$ and $j_1 + j_2$, and at least the upper bound is what is stated in the paragraph you marked red
I assume the lower bound appears a bit further on
I know what the permitted values are, as I went on with the theory leaving this behind. I can't understand the strategy he uses to obtain the eigenvalues of $\mathbf{J}^2$. It's pretty complicated, and I'm searching for a different "proof"
16:53
what book is this if you dont mind @ClaudioMenchinelli
17:15
@ClaudioMenchinelli The simplest way is a dimensionality argument: You know that there is $J = j_1 + j_2$ in there, and you can now apply lowering operators to this. The question is when this terminates. Let $J_\text{min}$ be the lowest possible value for $J$, then the dimensionality is $\sum_{J = J_\text{min}}^{j_1 + j_2} 2J + 1 = (J_\text{max} + J_\text{min})(J_\text{max}-J_\text{min} + 1) + (J_\text{max}-J_\text{min} + 1)$.
Now equate that to $(2j_1 + 1)(2j_2 + 1)$, plug in $J_\text{max} = j_1 + j_2$ and solve for $J_\text{min}$
page 403 of rammurthy shankar has this one
anyway i wish not to talk more on stuff i have no clue of :)
17:30
@nickbros123 COhen Tannoudji. The bible of QM
is there anything in physics or math named after wiersama?
who is wiersama :P
i have no idea but i have a vague memory of coming across something named after wiersama
(and i do not know who wiersama is)
@ACuriousMind But lowering operators don't change the $J^2$ eigenvalue.
@ACuriousMind yeah yeah I knew what to do after that
@ClaudioMenchinelli ah, sorry, I didn't mean "lowering operator"
17:34
but the problem is the lowering operator
oh ok
eh, I think if you carefully argue why this goes down in integer steps you actually directly get the result anyway
You start at one state with $J = j_1 + j_2 = m$, this is $\lvert j_1, m_1 = j_1\rangle\otimes \lvert j_2, m_2 = j_2\rangle$. Now you get a two-dimensional space of states with $m = j_1 + j_2 - 1$ (you can either lower the $m$ of the first or of the second vector). One of these dimensions is the $J = j_1 + j_2, M = j_1 + j_2 - 1$ obtained from the top state via lowering, but the second dimension needs to be something else,
and so it needs to be the top vector of its own subrepresentation with $J = j_1 + j_2 - 1$
you can either explicitly work this out iteratively, or you can then write down the sum I wrote above and solve for $J_\text{min}$
@ClaudioMenchinelli It is just saying that if $M=j_1+j_2$ then you know immediately that $J=j_1+j_2$ because there is only one way to get that. But if $M=j_1+j_2-1$, then it can either come from $J=j_1+j_2$ or from $J=j_1+j_2-1$
Ah ok, I see now.There's two possibilities: the max value taken by $M$ in the subrepresentation where $J = j_1+j_2-1$ or the the subrepresentation where $J = j_1+j_2$ but the value of $M$ just one unity lower
@ACuriousMind @naturallyInconsistent thanks those are illuminating hints haha
17:52
@Slereah why do you have to get me laughing all of a sudden?
People here will think I'm mad
Or rather, they'll know
 
1 hour later…
19:00
shweggle
 
2 hours later…
21:15
Of course I'm being so reductionist I don't want to bother much with Riemannian geometry as it's only a special case of DG. I'm hating myself for that lol
21:28
does the notation in (3.265) $[\textbf{L}, H] = 0$ mean $[L_i, H] = 0$ for all $i$?
oh okay
and so the idea here is we want to conjecture some maximal set of mutually commuting observables. based on the data we have, it looks like $\{H, L^2, L_i\}$ for any $i \in {1, 2, 3}$ must at the very least be part of this maximal set of commuting observables. And conventionally, we just pick $i = 3$ and correspond it to the $+z$ direction in space?
and we want to look for a maximal set of mutually commuting observables $\{C_i: \mathcal{H} \rightarrow \mathcal{H}\}$ because it is a linear algebraic fact that $[C_1, C_2] = 0 \iff C_1 \text{ and } C_2 \text{ are simultaneously diagonalizable}$. Hence, such a maximal set yields a basis labeled with the most information (corresponding to quantities of interest) possible?
i guess I am not sure about why we want a maximal set other than for the purpose of judging how much information we can know all at once
not sure what you mean by "most information"
21:35
as in upon taking a measurement of one of the observables in the maximal set, you can measure the most other distinct observables if you pick from the maximal set
maximality of the CSCO just guarantees that the labels are non-degenerate, i.e. specifying the eigenvalue for every operator in the CSCO uniquely specifies the state
ohhh
i see
hm wait but for the hydrogen atom how do we know that we have uniquely specified all states with the three labels?
well, you need to prove it some way :P
in that case, it's a mathematical fact that the spherical harmonics are a basis of $L^2(S^2)$ and for them the $\ell, m$ label is non-degenerate, and you can also show that the radial functions $\psi_n(r)$ form a basis of $L^2(\mathbb{R})$, so what you have altogether is a basis of $L^2(\mathbb{R})\otimes L^2(S^2) \cong L^2(\mathbb{R}^3 -\{0\})$ labeled by non-degenerate labels $n\ell m$
so something like prove for arbitrary $n,l,m$ that $\lvert nlm\rangle - \lvert n'l'm'\rangle = 0$ where $n = n', l=l', m=m'?
I am trying to understand 3.267 and 3.268 in a rep theoretic framework. in particular, i am trying to understand why the structure of the eigenvalues is the same no matter the particular system. I think this is because the irreps of $SO(3)$ over $\mathbb{R^3}$ don't care about the Hamiltonian or about the specifics of the space. So long as we are dealing with a vector space isomorphic to $\mathbb{R}^3$ we have the same structure of eigenvalues for generators/($L^2$ is a casimir inv?) of $SO(3)$?
i guess this is the same as in the finite dimensional case with spin, but I have a more concrete belief in this fact for the finite case because i know that projective irreps of $SO(3)$ are characterized by dimension of the space, not by the space itself in any way. and I do not know the analogous result for the infinite dimensional irreps
21:53
@SillyGoose you don't need to know anything about infinite-dimensional reps here
SO(3) is compact, all its irreps are finite-dimensional
The spherical harmonics $Y_{\ell m}$ are precisely the decomposition of $L^2(S^2)$ into the finite dimensional irreps of total angular momentum $\ell$ and dimension $2\ell + 1$
for what reason do the projective irreps not appear?
why should they?
Hm well, I guess I am confused. I have only seen results for finite dimensional representation theory, and I am not sure what would change when considering infinite dimensional representations. But you say that irreps of $SO(3)$ are finite dimensional, okay. Then, the procedure to classify the irreps of $SO(3)$ is the same whether talking about finite dimensional systems or infinite dimensional?
the representation of SO(3) on $L^2(S^2)$ is just the one inherited from the fundamental rep (any time you have a representation on a space $X$, you also get representations on the function spaces on $X$), so you know this is a proper linear representation of SO(3) and not just a projective one
@SillyGoose I don't understand the question - as I just said, the irrep are finite-dimensional, so why would the system being infinite-dimensional matter?
where the procedure I have in mind is the classification of irreps of $\mathfrak{sl}(2;\mathbb{C})$, which is equivalent by various results to irreps of projective irreps of $SO(3)$
well I guess I am confused because if we account for the fact that we can have projective irreps, the procedure to classify projective irreps of $SO(3)$ results in finding projective irreps of $SO(3)$
so that is the reason why I am wondering why we are disregarding these projective irreps (the ones that do not lift to normal irreps)
21:59
you're not "disregarding" them
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