Guys, if a person knows physics very good, can he consider himself an engineer? Since engineering is basically physics being applied on a practical level?

@bolbteppa 60 times more powerful than LEP, not 60 times more powerful than the LHC.

@NovaliumCompany A physicist is no more an engineer than a professor of literature is a writer :P

I am good at physics but terrible at engineering

Ah damn

@bolbteppa The collision energy of the SSC was planned to be 40TeV as compared to 14TeV for the LHC. So only about two and a half times more energy.

although certainly there's lots of engineering involved in setting up experiments, and the physicists doing that certainly have expertise in engineering

Exceptionalism be damned

let's just build the next accelerator all around the earth

From Berkley to Sidney

In unrelated news, the burger place gave me a double burger when I paid for a normal one, so life's good

@NovaliumCompany I have several engineer friends, and it's a very different discipline to physics. A physics degree would not qualify as an engineer. Not by a long way.

@Slereah As long as the detectors are in nice places

I like geneva

@ACuriousMind I found a 20p coin today :-)

(not quite enough to buy a burger though)

At least not a burger one would trust

@JohnRennie That answers my question thanks. So going to university with engineering, and going to university with physics are to different things or? In an engineering class, they just teach you howto apply physics or?

True, I'm sure you can buy burgers for 20p but would you want to? :-)

I think cheapest I saw may have been 89p in McDonalds?

I didn't trust that

@JohnRennie America

@Jim fine, thanks

I'm sure a reasonable sized burger in America is pretty cheap

@JohnRennie There are also plans for a substantial electron-ion collider, but that's intensity frontier, not energy frontier.

@NovaliumCompany the first year of a physics and an engineering degree will be very similar because you'll be covering basics. But after that the courses diverge wildly.

since their average burger is monstrous

@JohnRennie There is some wiggle room at the level of industry positions, insofar as PhD physicists are a commodity. But it depends on what you're trying to go for

@Slereah Yep. ILC.

@JohnRennie Yes, but what do they teach you in an engineering course?

an experimentalist who works on materials physics would have different options than a theorist who worked entirely on the computer, for instance

@NovaliumCompany I don't know, I didn't do engineering. You could probably find course notes for engineering degree courses online somewhere in Googlespace.

@NovaliumCompany What "engineering"? Mechanical engineering? Electronics engineering? Chemical engineering? There's lots of subdisciplines

Just look at some university courses

Ok guys, Thanks.

For physics I found the course structure for every university on their website

Engineering physics?

:P

@NovaliumCompany engineering is not science. In science, they teach you the proper method, the derivations. They show you what was done in history to give you an idea of where to go in the future and get you prepared mentally for exploring new realms of that field of science. In engineering, they teach you some basics of science, how to understand science and find the useful bits of it. They teach you how to quickly learn what you need for a task and how to approach finding solutions for a problem

@Jim Misunderstanding - solved. Thanks.

cool

here

@rob My new standard for AI is the advanced Turing test

@ACuriousMind I can't even pass the regular Turing test. I'll never pass the advanced one

what kind of paper does Nature publish, anyway

I don't think I've ever read one

it's pretty broad, it seems like

for instance, here's an article that came out yesterday:

nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0096-0

"Our value for the proton’s weak charge is in excellent agreement with the standard model and sets multi-teraelectronvolt-scale constraints on any semi-leptonic parity-violating physics not described within the standard model." aka standard model still works

@ACuriousMind the communists at GameStop didn’t have the adapter

And it’s not expensive enough to get free shipping on Amazon

can't view the advanced turing test...ugh

@enumaris Stop trying to click on my webcomic links when you're at work! :P

lol

Have you guys read about the new product from google? It can make hair appointments and restaurant reservations for you by calling in and booking

It's called Duplex

@ACuriousMind gyazo.com/6dbd31702961cff6db01605a2e653fdc

@0celo7 Well...the 360 is a bit old by now

@0celo7 :)

fun beans

@ACuriousMind Wonder if I should just buy a new controller

wireless is also a pain because of batteries

madcatz?

ok I'm back

So I want to say a few words about attention

Every human seeks attention.

Be it when you want to talk to someone else

have "special time" with a mate

seek medical attention

seek recognition etc

Now, I've said this before, but calling someone an attention seeker in my opinion is low and devoid of class and decorum

I can certainly strike back to any such name calling with varied levels of damage

I could just summon some people in the press and make this ugly

but ..........

At any rate

When a physics person for example spams Facebook by sharing a pic of the abstract on arxiv, that is attention . . . (insert word here)-ing . That is fine as long as you belong to certain communities. Hey I'm not hating , just don't wake a resting lion

@Cows If you feel other users are being rude to you, raise a flag or alert a moderator directly, do not "strike back". The message you were suspended for just there for was, both in form and content, in clear violation of Be Nice.

@ACuriousMind that word really means (grey haired ) and quite honestly it was in jest

@ACuriousMind I am really bothered because this is the only place I have quasi informed conversations with people about physics topics

but

@Cows Then I suggest you do not call any of them an "attention whore". In case it is not clear: That is an insult which will not be tolerated.

no i did not call them that

There has to exist a dumbed-down summary of the Coleman-Mandula proof somewhere :|

the "w" was taken out and it just means grey haired (more towards seniority)

@ACuriousMind I was going more with older guys in seeking attention. grey haired as in have seen it all. May be it was too close to the other word.

I think the word I used has Danish roots

but ok i see it now

At any rate the bigger problem is that this kind of thing reminds me of all of my experiences and makes me feel like there is some selection for this kind of behavior.

@Cows The word that means "grey-haired" is hoar, not hore. If you want to try and get out of being called out for insults, at least make sure you spell the similar-looking-but-innocent archaic words correctly.

@ACuriousMind oh , and thank you for taking me at my word and checking the basis of my excuse :D

@ACuriousMind sorry I spelt it wrong

@ACuriousMind it was meant to be a meta-joke of sorts

@ACuriousMind I feel like the same way in which men who apply for grants are being background checked for the slightest sexual misconduct thing, is now a thing. This has corrected for behavior along those lines in the community, as it affects the $, I want to enact something like this for general politeness

@ACuriousMind I might explore this idea with a few people

@Cows Well...try not to make jokes that can be badly mistaken by passers-by without the full context. We've (we as in the visitors of this room, not you and me) had this conversation here multiple times in the past: This room is public, and its content should not appear offensive to a casual glance.

@ACuriousMind I generally hate attempting to implement things that might modify the behavior of other people. As I feel everyone should fully be themselves. but . . . . .

@ACuriousMind I feel like I need to affect the bottom dollar of people taking part in physics research to try to get them to have general manners and tolerance.

This will not be easy but I feel like I am well connected tenacious and have a lot of time and grit to do this

humanely and legally :P

@Cows I'm not following you - are you claiming physicists in general somehow lack manners? Don't generalize, I've met many well-mannered and polite physicists

@ACuriousMind yeah I shouldn't really generalize as I won't want people to do that to me. It's just I can enumerate the names of all the physicists who've made me feel really bad at one time or another and they are all but 4 of the physicist I've met. To be fair I'm no saint, I mean I have horns on my head but some of the transgressions were so bad that well . . . they changed me forever

at least how I view people especially those - - - - of a certain variety

which is bad

very bad

@ACuriousMind I do think we should encourage people to fearlessly use words like "sorry" or " I apologize for that" without fear of litigation

and recourse

A lot of this I'm sure is just due to lack of exposure to people outside of certain communities and fears and insecurities et al

Can you imagine

@Cows I...guess I agree? Who's litigating people for saying sorry? Keep in mind that my cultural context (guessing you are in the US?) is probably pretty different from yours.

@ACuriousMind the US is a strange place. Saying sorry can be used as admission of guilt

the major things that got me quite upset personally were

i) Spending time with people (physicists ) and them have them turn around and invalidate your time (months) because they want to save face

ii) A physicist making calls to Northern california to contact a mathematician to prevent me from . . . well ask her just because . . . she feels I don't deserve x

iii)Doing your thing and having people share and communicate your emails with derogatory comments

iv) Having your application shared and laughed at in open

o.o

v)Suspecting the worst of someone and acting on it based on pure speculation

Are you saying you applied to somewhere and the people in the place shared and laughed at your application openly, or you showed/sent people you know your application and they mocked it

the former sounds like a privacy violation

vi)Laughing at me during a QFT class because I nodded my head about some renormalization thing

and many more

now let me be clear the circumstances are certainly complicated, and I was mostly hungry and nomadic (to be charitable) at the time

I even had someone say some next level derogatory stuff about me

@Cows In case it needs clarifying, as far as our disciplinary processes here are concerned, an apology is not an admission of, nor evidence of, having done anything wrong.

I'm sorry

gets sued

I'm no angel and certainly nice guy as you can tell from the music i listen to (hehe) but damn bad things happened

I had people flat out say they've never met me or know anything about me

you know. . . . won't want to be affiliated with the LOoSER lol

At any rate this happened over some time(years while I was dealing with personal things)

I could not even defend myself . . . my emails were share discussed and laughed at in detail

exciting stuff

I was never there

Well...sucks that that happened to you :( I don't know what else to say, sorry.

yeah no worries man

Hopefully that explains things a bit

Like I said I can list names

hehe

At some point some news orgs approached me to get this, but I felt putting lots of people, and kids and so forth who might not have been directly involved was not an appropriate thing to do

However. . . . . . when I try to just hang out on here and live and something like this happens I pick up my phone and strongly consider it

but it's alright I'm fine

I do have a list of people and violations

I'm sure they have dirt on me too, because that is how people roll in the US

At any rate . . . . . . I want to change this, and I'll do it by "affecting funding"

It's like this

. . . . All forms of suffering are funny until it hits home

home being the wallets of the concerned

The laughter in the QFT class really broke me. . . . . I mean i did not expect this from her

Any ways let's move on . . .

Did you guys see the google duplex demo? It was pretty awesome

I can't view it

at work

yeah you should definitely check it out later, it's pretty cool

cool beans

@ACuriousMind I got the adapter. This game better be worth it!

@0celo7 I remember my main complaint about it being that it was too short ;P

what game

@enumaris Witcher 2

I see

@0celo7 Which game?

ooo, this word embedding similarity stuff is doing quite good

@Semiclassical Witcher 2

@ACuriousMind it's coming saturday...I am returning to the console peasantry

mathematica whyyyy

@Slereah This www2.ph.ed.ac.uk/~s0948358/mysite/… (based off Weinberg) and this www2.ph.ed.ac.uk/~s0948358/mysite/SUSY%20chapter%203.pdf (based off Wess) are like the best unified intro to susy I think one can get from first principles, to iron out issues, tbh

thanks

I'll give it a look (once I am less preoccupied with moving)

so many boxes

thankfully I am done moving

it seems like you've been moving for a week

Cool, found some videos on the end of chapter 3 by one of the writers too

@Semiclassical lol dont think its so simple. would like to discuss with you or other expert at length here chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/9446/theory-salon ps new book just ran across you might like looks very promising Meaning of the Wavefn by Gao amazon.com/Meaning-Wave-Function-Ontology-Mechanics/dp/… ... lots on "protective measurements"...

@0celo7 Moving in a month, actually

But there's a lot of paperwork

and I like to pack things early

I have many worldly possessions

you're probably fine if you have <75 books

I wish

And that's not even all my books

I still have like 3 shelves worth of books back at my parent's house

I brought back some books to my parents

Can anybody help me with part b of this?

imgur.com/a/alnnvcp

Im really confused

i should be able to move them to the new flat since it is bigger

also nice : since it will be a flat I own, I can finally put my whiteboard back on a wall

@JakeRose can you share what you've worked out so far?

@vzn there might be subtleties, but nothing in the article says thst. It’s a big Bell test of local realism, showing—yet again—that quantum mechanics is supported and local realism is not.

If you have some other experiment in mind, fine. But the results of that experiment are exactly in line with what QM predicts.

QM is not compatible with local realism, and (evidently) experiment isn’t compatible with local realism either

@Semiclassical nobody would announce an experiment that questions QM at this point, its career suicide... extreme "trivia": there was a very early test that was not confirmatory & got null result... think there is a razor-thin point that is more subtle than existing theory + experiments...

Then what, exactly, is the point of linking that article in the first place? You’ve basically just waved it away as “to be otherwise would be career suicide” since it doesn’t actually agree with your rhetoric

@vzn No, an airtight experimental result that disagrees with QM would create a lot of interest. This is the kind of thing that makes careers, not kills them. (But again, it has to be very robust.)

@Semiclassical lol its a nice/ novel new test! QM experimentalists are constantly/ periodically coming up with new "innovations," they seem to be very good at both their craft + marketing sometimes.

@DavidZ That too. Though I think there would be strong skepticism, just as there was when OPERA thought they were seeing FTL neutrinos

@DavidZ theory precedes experiment. btw still waiting for expert/ detailed analysis of this related/ proposed experiment. may eventually have to do it myself :| physics.stackexchange.com/questions/402680/…

@Semiclassical Oh yeah, absolutely.

And such skepticism would be entirely warranted, given the magnitude of the claim

Part of the calculus there is: Does this new result contradict old results? Eg if this violation of QM was always possible, would we expect it to have been seen in other experiments already?

wasn't there that one experiment that showed a violation of complementarity of some sort...seemed kinda controversial...

but wasn't career suicide afaik

@Semiclassical am not disagreeing but sometimes the issues are much more subtle than such black + white boundaries.

can't remember the experiment's name tho...

Well, my point is more that there’s a difference between a subtle violation of QM and a gross one

@Semiclassical eg, look at my proposed experiment in the link. it is quite simple (applied) physics theory. my suspicion is that almost no college graduates could correctly answer it, and correct analysis might even possibly stymie some phds. seriously!

complementarity is pretty big in QM tho...although it is a bit vague...I dunno lol

And the more ‘obvious’ the violation, the harder it is to reconcile with the vast amount of experimental literature already in existence

Hence a gross violation of QM would provoke a lot of skepticism. ( A more subtle one would as well, but not nearly to the same degree.)

hmmm

@vzn The lhc thought it found FTL particles for a while, they didn't suppress that

Was it LHC or OPERA?

I guess I don’t remember how those collaborations are related though

@bolbteppa think it generally takes theorists to make bold predictions for the experiments to ever really grab headlines/ nobels. with einstein + mercury precession as the template.

Maybe OPERA

Bold predictions like SUSY or multiple dimensions? :)

There are plenty of bold predictions nowadays

How long was the Higgs predicted, 40 years?

@bolbteppa eg Verlinde :)

It took like 40 years for that one to come, then there's the whole inflation stuff that took decades

Higgs is a nice example. Higgs was lucky to be alive to see his own particle.

I think the thinking as to why internet people have such massive problems with susy and strings: physicists (the elite) think it might be right? It must be wrong, because it doesn't go beyond to magic land to find what's missing, it's too close to what's known so it secretly encodes the inherent flaw stopping us from the unanswered questions

I think it was OPERA which is also in CERN, but the LHC wouldn't be involved since the LHC collides hadrons and the result was FTL neutrinos.

altho I'm sure neutrinos are produced in the collisions at the LHC, I don't think the LHC has a specific neutrino beam emitter kind of apparatus? I could be wrong though.

(This is what you get when you have a neutrino theorist talk about neutrino experiments LOL)

or maybe just me...maybe other theorists are a lot better versed in the experiments...

I shouldn't speak for all theorists

Yeah it was OPERA.

We have a few questions about that.

@enumaris I think you're right, though I'm not entirely sure either

my adviser was pretty mad that OPERA held a press conference over that

I think that those notes give a constructive proof of Haag Lopuszanski Sohnius extension of the Coleman Mandula theorem, at least ch. 1 of WB seems to claim that's what it does there

@bolbteppa and how are the claimants careers now proceeding a posteriori?

@vzn ?