The h Bar

John Duffield

16:01

@Blue : you use a mass spectrometer.

Anonymous

You don't measure mass of an electron using mass spectrometer

Phase

@JohnDuffield I'm pretty sure trying to solve the question of "what is the fundamental nature of space, time and matter" can't be solved by "well my analogy works for some classical systems so why not"

John Duffield

@Blue : you can use a Penning trap. Don't you know that the mass of the hydrogen atom is less than the mass of the proton plus electron?

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield In nuclear physics masses are measured in terms of energy. Mass (in terms of energy) of electron+proton system is lower than them individually precisely because of the internal potential energy.

Anonymous

In that process neither the electron nor the proton's individual mass changes.

vzn

16:08

@Phase we are aware that "light is rippling space" is a verging-on-radical "conjecture" wrt current conventional wisdom est wrt 20th century physics edifice. it is possibly explicitly rejected in some refs. you might even be able to find some. it would be interesting to try to collect those refs. anyway, we are working on a new theory that is not contained in textbooks. there are many glimmers and loose ends to be tied together. dots to be connected. its preliminary/ provisional etc...

John Duffield

@Phase : I referred to Maxwell and Clifford and LIGO as regards waves in space. I wasn't referring to "my analogy". Do you want to talk abut waves in space?

Phase

Can I read what you actually have? I'd rather not just read the opinions of physicists who didn't know any better [given the time]

It'd be reassuring to see some maths at least

Terry Bollinger

Hmm... another null h bar session? Always sparser after US Daylight Saving Time starts.

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield You can't measure mass of an electron just using a Penning trap.

Anonymous

Describe the whole process

Secret

16:09

@TerryBollinger h bar is really uh... weird recently

but yeah chat session seemed to be mostly inactive for a long time

vzn

@Phase is your question directed to me or JD or both/ either?

John Duffield

@Blue : the electron's mass changes, as does the proton's (though not so much). There is no actual thing in the hydrogen atom that has negative energy. It's the same for the Earth-Moon system. Gravitational field energy is positive, not negative.

Phase

you both seem in on it so either

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield " the electron's mass changes, as does the proton'" [citation needed]

vzn

@Phase ok. my favorite current ref is tenev + horstemeyer which JD says hes seen. it is cited in here quite a bit, originally found/ cited in here by secret after some discussion of the bkg ideas.

heather

16:12

no hbar session?

oh, wait, someone just said that...

Anonymous

Potential energy is clearly negative, in that situation, if you have studied basic electrostatics

Phase

@Secret you are to blame for this smh.

Secret

@Phase what does that had to do with me? The h bar is strange and I only produce weirdness

John Duffield

@Phase : the LIGO material is current. Go look it up: "LIGO detectors use laser interferometry to measure the distortions in space-time occurring between stationary, hanging masses caused by passing gravitational waves".

@Blue : field energy is positive. I have studied this.

Phase

@JohnDuffield that doesn't substantiate "Light is rippling space".

Anonymous

16:13

@JohnDuffield What do you mean by "field energy"?

Anonymous

And citation needed for that too

vzn

Aug 10 '16 at 16:17, by vzn

@DanielSank found a paper. Tenev/ Horstenmeyer. it gives the vague statements meaning, makes the hunches precise enough to actually be right/ wrong. plz check it out if you actually care about the topic. its full of eqns http://arxiv.org/pdf/1603.07655.pdf

Phase

at no point does it allude to light being rippling space

John Duffield

@Blue : spatial energy. A field is a state of space. At least that's what Einstein said in 1929, and that's good enough for me.

Phase

it just seems to be a way of modelling GR

Anonymous

16:16

@JohnDuffield That is not relevant here.

John Duffield

@Phase : no, but if a gravitational wave is rippling spacetime, that's a start, yes? Do you know of any waves where something doesn't wave? Because I don't.

Anonymous

You're claiming that electrostatic potential energy is positive for electron+proton system

Anonymous

Which is nonsense

Phase

@JohnDuffield that is such a dumb statement I'm a bit remiss. Why not try more than just gut feelings and shitty analogies

@0celo7 sorry for violating your christian chat

Anonymous

I don't even see the word field energy in the link you provided

Anonymous

16:17

Nor spatial energy

John Duffield

@Blue : it's relevant. Electromagnetic field energy is positive. It has a mass equivalence. So does gravitational field energy. That's why "the energy of the gravitational field shall act gravitatively in the same way as any other kind of energy". Here's you citation for that: einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol6-trans/197

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield Define electromagnetic field energy

Terry Bollinger

@Secret, @heather, without a moderator announcing the session, it's kind of like trying to start a quiet conversation in the middle of a rock concert. Ah well...

vzn

@Phase (reviewing) agreed the Tenev + Horstemeyer paper is very close to the "light rippling space" realization, but apparently stops one step )( short of it. its entirely focused on gravity waves travelling at speed of light. havent found a closer ref. the rest are rough analogies that need to be fleshed out more. a paper needs to be written. there is much attempted stitching-together in my blog on the topic.

Phase

what

How is it "very close"

S U B S T A N T I A T E

Y O U R

S T A T E M E N T S

Secret

16:20

@TerryBollinger indeed, and most importantly, we don't really have an agenda for many sessions already, which is why the chat session is kinda dormant

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield "act" doesn't mean have the same sign.

Anonymous

You're again misinterpreting that.

heather

Hello, ladies and gents and robots, we'd like to start a shorter chat session

vzn

@Phase it considers space as a fundamentally elastic medium. etc... new theories cannot be directly substantiated they have to be BUILT

Phase

> E T C

I swear to god

heather

16:21

Please limit sidebars for the next, oh, thirty or so minutes

Anonymous

I'm afraid that if you want to continue this you'll have to come back with more relevant references.

Phase

I'm not saying where is your empirical evidence I'm saying where is your ACTUAL THEORY

heather

Anyone got any interesting new papers/developments they'd like to talk about?

@Blue/@Phase/@vzn see above =) we'll be quick.

John Duffield

@Blue : I can't explain electromagnetic fiel energy to you briefly. Look it up using Google

vzn

@Phase THE COMPLETE THEORY DOES NOT EXIST YET

Phase

16:22

@vzn Idiot. @heather ok, peace, have a good session

heather

@Phase danke

So, i came across a paper discussing a possible way to identify dark matter in the most recent edition of Nature

vzn

← if was less tolerant would flag that

heather

(@secret/@TerryBollinger am I doing this right? steer me if I'm off track)

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield If so, firstly, that is not equivalent to electrostatic energy. Secondly it's not always positive.

heather

@vzn ...cup of tea to calm down, maybe? =)

Anonymous

16:24

Field energy can be calculated in a small region of space

Secret

@heather Looks fine to me, that's how DavidZ does it (as well asking whether there are new users to introduce themselves)

vzn

@heather phase needs the narcotic not me

heather

@vzn calm down

Oh, yeah! any new users, hello and welcome, feel free to introduce yourselves.

Anonymous

And over there you have the term $\frac{1}{2}\epsilon E^2$

Phase

@Blue chill, let them have the session xd

John Duffield

16:25

@Blue : the electron has an electromagnetic field. It doesn't have an electrostatic field. And trust me, electromagnetic field energy is always positive.

Anonymous

Which makes it postive

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield Field energy is not relevant here.

Anonymous

I've already showed the math

Anonymous

As to why it is postive

Dattier

Hi,

Anonymous

16:26

But electrostatic potential energy is not

Phase

Hi @Dattier !

heather

@Dattier hello =)

Dattier

what about the M theory ?

heather

sciencemag.org/news/2018/02/… provides a good summary of the paper(s) I'm talking about

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield Citation need for first part. For a electron+proton system there is a Electrostatic field

heather

16:27

here is one of the actual papers: nature.com/articles/nature25792

Anonymous

For just electron obviously electrostatic field doesn't make sense

Dattier

the Edward's project is died ?

Anonymous

It has a positive field energy

heather

and the second paper is: nature.com/articles/nature25791

Noah P

@heather Hi, not exactly a new user, but haven't been active recently - intend on being moreso!

John Duffield

16:27

@Blue : where have you shown the math? Field energy is crucial, because the electron is "an excitation of the electron field". It is field. Its mass is field energy.

heather

@NoahP Hello, glad to hear it!

Phase

@Blue @JohnDuffield can you make your own chat room please, they're trying to have their thing.

@NoahP welcome back nonetheless

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield $\frac{1}{2}\epsilon E^2>0$ but $\frac{kq_1q_2}{r^2}$ may be both positive/negative. They are not the same.

heather

anyone else read anything interesting in the field?

i can come up with more papers, i just don't want to hog the session =)

Anonymous

@Phase Oh, sorry

vzn

16:28

← now marvelling at this highly active chat session with no mods, "accident waiting to happen" :P o_O

Cows

@vzn can you help me with some friendly resources on elliptic integrals? Hopefully with information on polynomials deg 3 and 4

John Duffield

@Phase : no, you accused vzn of not answering questions. Now I'm answering them.

Phase

You've been responding the Blue for the past however many messages

Take it to a diff chat room

Cows

@Blue Do you have any resources that can help with elliptic integrals?

Dattier

what about the M theory, the project is it died ?

John Duffield

16:29

@Phase : it's a physics chat, about the mass deficit.

heather

hoo boy. @JohnDuffield/@Blue there's the physics meta chat, probably empty, you could talk there.

vzn

@Cows hi not an expert on that but theres lots of others (regulars) around who might know, but maybe not here right now... BaSe + 0celo7 might know etc

Phase

@JohnDuffield learn to read. They declared they're doing a recap and asked people not to talk

unless its relevant to the topics

heather

alright, i'll add two more papers and then i'll be done and we can move on in the session, since no one seems to want to add

vzn

@JohnDuffield hes not entirely interested in learning considering his actions (vs words)

John Duffield

16:30

@Blue : that's attraction and repulsion. Not field energy.

@Phase : who did?

bolbteppa

@Dattier no

Secret

Well, we have pretty pictures of Jupiter's polar storms and they are deeper than we thought

Anonymous

@JohnDuffield Field energy is not relevant anyway.

Noah P

Finding it funny how despite my inactivity over the last few months I still come back to John Duffield embroiled in a rather heated "discussion" with someone, just as before and on my main question on the site (No offense to anyone involved in said "discussion")

Phase

@JohnDuffield Scroll. Up.

Or just check the f*cking star board

heather

16:31

@Secret thanks =)

@Phase it's fine =)

Phase

@heather it was a good effort, sorry it didn't work xd

Dattier

@bolbteppa : so the news ?

heather

do you know if there's going to be any more missions to jupiter after juno @secret

Secret

@heather I have not followed much on space stuff closely, but I think the complexity of the polar storms will keep the astronomers busy

heather

(for those interested: the first paper i was going to post about was on a speedup in gates in the ion trap realization of quantum computing achieved by modulating the laser beams, and the second on the first two-dimensional topological qubit being constructed; both also in the most recent edition of nature.)

John Duffield

16:33

@heather : I'm afraid your announcement of the chat session was not clear. Please proceed.

vzn

@Phase heather has not been apptd/ delegated to lead the session by other authority. we will tolerate it.

heather

@Secret hmm. and then soon enough there'll be the new horizons probe meeting up with a kuiper belt object.

Phase

>it wasn't clear

>we will tolerate it

both of those responses are bad

heather

To make it clear for all y'all:

12 mins ago, by heather

Hello, ladies and gents and robots, we'd like to start a shorter chat session

Secret

I am more excited about the black hole horizon telescope project. I wonder when we will be able to see the image of the event horizon. I think they say some time in April or May

heather

16:34

@Secret could you add a link there?

any other interesting developments, everyone?

Secret

Event Horizon 'Scope

@ehtelescope

The Event Horizon Telescope is an international collaboration aiming to capture the first image of a black hole by creating a virtual Earth-sized telescope.

111 tweets, 1.5k followers, following 94 users

2

heather

@Secret ah, thanks =)

Secret

in the theory circles, we seeemed to have another black star candidate proposed at least in the semiclassical gravity regime

vzn

@heather lol musk will maybe sooner get to mars. he now says 2019. seems to be a 1-man NASA o_O cnbc.com/2018/03/11/…

heather

@vzn interesting point, i wrote a paper recently comparing privatized vs public space research/exploration, definitely an interesting topic.

any other papers/developments?

(feel free to post after I continue)

some misc announcements

vzn

16:39

@heather musk is brilliant but a bit )( crazy and think if he launches (humans!) in 2019 it can only end in disaster/ tragedy, if he launches at all.

heather

1. the quantum computing stack exchange is up and running please join if interested!

2. on meta we have two "hot" meta questions:

7

Q: Should we leave super wrong highly downvoted posts visible or should we delete them?

This answer (10K only; screenshot) is an example of a "super wrong" post. For the purposes of this discussion, a "super wrong" post is an answer which not only is factually incorrect but is incorrect in such a manner as to contribute to the spread of some popular error in physical understanding....

and

20

Q: Ch-ch-ch-changing the site logo to cut out the weird arrow thing

Apparently, Ch-ch-ch-changes are coming to the site navigation and theming. Given that that's the case, can I suggest that maybe now is a good time to drop the super-awkward-once-you-notice-it (except you rarely do) arrow in the site logo's background Feynman diagram? This arrow seems to have...

discussion feature-request design

Feel free to vote on the posts and/or comment here.

speaking of meta, any site upkeep/site issues/etc we need/wish to discuss?

Some thoughts on that: the close vote queue is quite full (100 questions), 5k'ers please review!

vzn

@heather yes who apptd you to lead this session?

Anonymous

@vzn Anyone can lead. It's okay

vzn

lol

heather

@vzn some people seemed interested in having a session, but since no mod was here, I thought it would be a good idea just to get it started.

If you wish to comment on any part of it, I am open to suggestions.

vzn

16:42

@heather lol ok thx for clearing that up. looks like youre leading it also :P

Secret

We don't always need a mod to lead a discussion, just a lead is enough

Anonymous

It's been a long time since we had a session like this. Good to see one from time to time

Anonymous

Go ahead

Secret

and a lead came up when it is needed

About the superwrong meta, I never knew such dangerous answers exists until I read that post

heather

@Qmechanic hello =)

is it alright that I'm leading the chat, or would you like to take over @Qmechanic

(@vzn seems to object, so.)

Anonymous

16:43

Yeah, I am happy you mentioned the QC site. Lately we're worried about whether it will get past the private beta, due to lack of questions. :P

heather

@Blue there's actually been kinda a lot of questions, according to area51

Secret

I think I kinda agree with the answer that suggest to hide it, because of its infectious potential

vzn

@heather have some )( objection to you self-appointing yourself without explanation.

Qmechanic

@heather : Hello, no that's fine.

heather

@Qmechanic cool, thanks.

@vzn is it all good?

vzn

16:45

@heather carry on mod is here and will zing anyone out of line afaik, (some admiration for your adolescent chutzpah) :P

heather

@vzn ::groans inside:: come on.

Anonymous

@heather I see 7 questions in last 24-hour period

Anonymous

7

Quantum Computing – quantumcomputing.stackexchange.com

Beta Q&A site for engineers, scientists, programmers, and computing professionals interested in quantum computing.

Currently in private beta.

Anonymous

10 is healthy

heather

@Blue yup, 7 qpd is what Area51 shows, and below 5 is unhealthy, so we're in the okay zone.

John Duffield

16:45

Can we talk about physics please, as opposed to computing?

heather

pretty good for a private beta, methinks it'll get higher in public beta.

@JohnDuffield is there a specific new topic you'd like to discuss (i'll leave the quantum computing physics vs. computing argument for another time)?

Secret

Quantum computing will be a major thing for the material science and computational chemistry sectors, thus it is good that this SE went beta, because I expect the traffic will explode once we have quantum computers that are error correcting enough

heather

(and yeah, we can move on)

vzn

hey all fyi the QC chat is really on fire, Whurley showed up yesterday in person, CEO of strangeworks who did the Keynote Address at elite South by Southwest conf, plz drop by for even more liveliness

Anonymous

Let's hope for the best. Anyway I think Strangework has been a bit loose on this

Anonymous

16:47

Especially the website is so creepy XD

heather

anyway, let's comply w/ @JohnDuffield's request.

vzn

The Classical Channel

General chat for Quantum Computing SE. For MathJax see meta.st...

1

@JohnDuffield QC is physics + computing =D

heather

alright, we've covered recent research and some announcements/maintenence-y type stuff, one last thing before we go back to normal chatting

as we all know, Stephen Hawking passed away March 14th.

John Duffield

@heather : not specially. For myself I've been doing a lot of "physics detective" work of late, and David Delphenich's translations have been very helpful. What you might call "canonical" early QM papers are now available in English for the first time.

heather

since this is the first full on chat session since then, let's hold (if everyone agrees) a minute of silence in memorial.

Terry Bollinger

16:49

@heather, I love what you've been doing and taking the lead on this! I've been offline because I'm helping to babysit my granddaughter right now, who is by the way unimaginably adorable.

Physics Meta

0

Q: Why a recent question posted by me has been down voted and closed?

Finding horizontal acceleration when height as a function of horizontal displacement is given Above is the question that I posted. Initially, I was clueless and I mentioned so much. But somebody kind enough offered some hint which I followed and did some workings and posted as my workings. But s...

discussion closed-questions specific-question close-reasons down-votes

heather

a minute (or so) has passed.

If you all have any stephen hawking stories, feel free to share.

Here's an obituary of Stephen Hawking written by Roger Penrose: theguardian.com/science/2018/mar/14/stephen-hawking-obituary

Secret

His quote about humans need to keep curious is in particular important. If we stop wondering about the stars, we will go extinct soon

Qmechanic

Any inputs to this meta post?

2

Q: We should reassign [tag:non-linear-dynamics] to [tag:complex-systems]

I propose we make the tag non-linear-dynamics a synonym of complex-systems. Currently, non-linear-dynamics is set as a synonym of non-linear-systems, but I'd like to argue that the most common usage of the term nonlinear dynamics is in the sense of being the (nonlinear) dynamics of dynamical-sys...

feature-request tags tag-synonyms

vzn

@heather legend: publisher/ editor told hawking every math eqn in famous topselling brief history of time popsci book would cut audience by ~½. think there are no eqns.

Terry Bollinger

16:52

Amazing man... and it is frankly astonishing that with his condition he lived so many decades.

Secret

@vzn There's actually one E=mc2

Anonymous

I have a lot of childhood memories associated with his popular science books. Indeed he was a very inspirational character for me, although I'm no longer into popular science.

vzn

@Secret :) a very good one!

Secret

@Qmechanic Technically, nonlinear dynamics is part of complex systems, but I don't see why we need to make this fine distinction. I am fine with this tag replacement as complex system is a big thing and it will be nice to have questions in that field well curated by that tag

heather

@Qmechanic let me take a look.

John Duffield

16:54

I'm not a Hawking fan I'm afraid. If you don't mind I'll leave it at that. Now's not the time.

Phase

Why even contribute then lmao

vzn

@JohnDuffield always the contrarian (just like einstein) :P

Phase

you guys are insightful geniuses ready for publication!

heather

i went to an interesting lecture the other day on exoplanets, and the speaker talked about how when he was at Harvard, Hawking was there, and his wheelchair batteries broke down, so the theoretical physicists and experimental physicists got together to try to fix the batteries, coming in with "a voltmeter and screwdriver for effect".

Phase

[on ViXra]

heather

16:55

it was pretty funny.

@Blue yeah, agreed.

Secret

that sounds pretty risky, lucky they managed to pull that off

Phase

Would've been p sad if they messed up and it just set on fire

heather

and honestly, he almost seemed immortal in spite of everything, so it was kind of a shock that he passed away.

@Phase they were able to fix it =)

vzn

Mar 15 at 3:43, by vzn

http://time.com/3531/hawking-myth-or-legend/ https://archives.cjr.org/the_observatory/media_made_hawking_famous.php https://medium.com/astronomy-cosmology-space-exploration/stephen-hawking-is-over‌rated-26831949fa7a

heather

so anyway, feel free to keep discussing, thanks for talking everyone, we'll do this again, hopefully, next week!

</chat session>

Phase

16:56

@vzn why was that written as a response to me

John Rennie

@heather damn, just in time to miss it! :-(

heather

@JohnRennie sorry =/

vzn

@Phase what did you mean "why even contribute"? are you talking to JD re not entirely positive feelings about Hawking? Hawking had a controversial side to say the least... etc

John Rennie

S'OK :-)

heather

feel free to critique my role, and comment on anything we covered.

Phase

16:57

@vzn if someone says "bla bla bla negative opinion but nows not the time"

it's beyond a useless contribution

heather

next week, if there's no mod, I don't suppose you could lead the session @JohnRennie? I don't think I'll be able to, i'll be in school next week.

Phase

@vzn says the crackpot

vzn

@Phase have never flagged anyone but am about to flag you

heather

okay, y'all take it easy about the flags.

vzn

lol wasnt me

John Rennie

16:58

@Phase for pity's sake stop feeding the trolls.

heather

i just declined two flags.

Phase

Flag me if you want, I'm hardly being malicious I'm just being honest.

heather

Stop it.

vzn

@heather you seem to be unaware of over the top behavior

John Duffield

Phase : check out electromagnetic geometry

Phase

16:59

@JohnRennie what about new users who come in and see the things going unchallenged

heather

@vzn I am quite aware, and I know you're not helping the situation either.

John Rennie

Let it go.

vzn

@heather ?!? are you a room mod? when did that happen?

diobuc eulb

my acc isn’t deleted yet (few more hours). lol so waddup

John Rennie

Beating your head against a brick wall is not productive

heather

16:59

@vzn no, I am an above 10k user across sites so i can handle flags in chat.

The Classical Channel

Transcript for