The h Bar

dmckee

8:37 PM

@BernardoMeurer You have to admire the pure, pig-headed persistence of the FSF in working on HURD,

I wonder if it will find a niche?

Bernardo Meurer

@dmckee I do admire it, although it pains me to see the effort put into it

The people working on it are all quite talented

and are a rare breed of developers

dmckee

And you have to wonder if their talents might have made a bigger difference applied elsewhere, right?

Me too.

Bernardo Meurer

Exactly

Kernel developers are rarer by the day, no one wants to know about this kind of stuff nowadays

It's all JS, Go, Python and what not

Too much flash

Out of my class of 200 Computer Engineers I am the only one interested in Kernels, and I'm in a low-level focused course

The few kernel devs we have should really be spending their time wisely, and Hurd seems like a bad choice

dmckee

Compared to the fraction of computer engineer actually working on kernels that might be an over-representation.

But I get the point. When I was still doing CS everyone was interested even though we all knew most of us would never do kernels outside of class.

Bernardo Meurer

Well, when was that?

dmckee

8:42 PM

@BernardoMeurer 1990ish

Bernardo Meurer

Ah, well, so before the web rush

(right?)

dmckee

Gopher was the hot new internet technology at the time, but not everyone in my class even signed up for the email address that was available.

Bernardo Meurer

Damn, Gopher, blast from the past

dmckee

The internet just wasn't a thing in the public mind. I was aware that a computer network existed that could be described ans the professional big-brother to the BBS interchange networks I'd used, but didn't know anything more about it than that.

And even the first release of Mosaic could deal with gopher directories, so you didn't need to know the tool after that.

Bernardo Meurer

9:01 PM

@dmckee Well, I guess no one really saw it coming

In any way, the web is now broken

with all of this JavaScript bullshit

HTML and CSS being disgustingly ill-suited

Node on the backend

Horrific

dmckee

It was broken from the beginning. It just keeps on going anyway.

But I have to say that I see no route to sanity.

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ACuriousMind hello ACM's avatar

is ACM here?

Bernardo Meurer

@dmckee Me neither, it's just sad

ACuriousMind

9:43 PM

@0celouvskyopoulo7 sort of

heather

@Bernardo what would your ideal web-focused language be?

(or, rather, what qualities would it have?)

Bernardo Meurer

@heather AFAIK it doesn't exist. It's just that the idea that the web is based on HTML is silly. Think if you were an alien, and I told you all of our digital coms and interactions happen through a document markup language. HTML is like TeX or Markdown, it shouldn't be used for what it's used

and then CSS is a crutch to make up for the fact that we do use HTML, and it makes things even more confusing

Then, to make up for the fact that HTML+CSS is static came Javascript to add the interactivity/ eye candy layer. And that is it's whole mess since JS is basically a hacked-together language

dmckee

@heather Not a language issue, but there is a desperate need to do something about the "this webpage is asking to load code from sixteen different domains some of which are certainly adds and some of which are tracking you for malicious purposes and there is not way for you to find out what they are about or what they do, are you OK with that?" issue.

Bernardo Meurer

And it's all Netscape's fault!

dmckee

I basically don't look at pages which are unviewable with a strong script-blocker running, but too many people simple don't have the awareness or discipline.

Bernardo Meurer

9:55 PM

I use an ad blocker and privacy badger at all times

dmckee

^ Me too.

Bernardo Meurer

Also, there's a dire infrastructure problem. People are now using Node on the backend which almost makes me faint

THINK THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY WE ARE WASTING

heather

Node?

Bernardo Meurer

Just by running so much crap on Node

Node.js

heather

i haven't heard of that.

Bernardo Meurer

9:56 PM

Node.js

Node.js is an open-source, cross-platform JavaScript run-time environment for executing JavaScript code server-side. Historically, JavaScript was used primarily for client-side scripting, in which scripts written in JavaScript are embedded in a webpage's HTML, to be run client-side by a JavaScript engine in the user's web browser. Node.js enables JavaScript to be used for server-side scripting, and runs scripts server-side to produce dynamic web page content before the page is sent to the user's web browser. Consequently, Node.js has become one of the foundational elements of the "JavaScrip...

It's server-sided JS basically

i.e. a way to use JS to code backend

heather

okay, well why is it bad?

Bernardo Meurer

Because JS is a horrible language!

And it's wasteful!

And the backend should be high-performance, safe code

not JS running on a V8 interpreter

dmckee

A classic on the basic problem with javascript: Wat.

(and, in fact, other rapid development language without a well defined type structure).

Anonymous

@BernardoMeurer Any idea how to run MATLAB on a 32-bit PC ?

dmckee

Too much 'convenience' make a language unpredictable.

Bernardo Meurer

9:59 PM

@blue 32 bit as in i686?

heather

@Bernardo you should create a new language.

Bernardo Meurer

@dmckee Oh yes, that is absolutely great

dmckee

Of course, too much bondage and discipline makes a language slow to develop in and makes the easy stuff harder than it should be.

Fortunately, the charging one has been solved now that we've all standardized on mini-USB. Or is it micro-USB? Shit.

Anonymous

@BernardoMeurer What's that? I mean I have Windows 7 (Dell E4310 model). The MATLAB only seems to have a version for Windows 64-bit systems :/

dmckee

@heather He should create a new language only if he is addressing a particular problem by doing so.

heather

10:01 PM

i meant a language to replace HTML/CSS and JS @dmckee

Bernardo Meurer

@blue Open the command prompt, type this in: echo %PROCESSOR_ARCHITECTURE% and tell me what comes off

@dmckee Exactly

@heather I don't know anything about language development :P

dmckee

@heather No point unless the browser people are on board.

Bernardo Meurer

^

There is some hope, I secretly wish Kotlin takes over the world

dmckee

That is something that has to be advanced through an industry process, and there are competing entrenched interests. Hard problem.

heather

@Bernardo Kotlin?

Bernardo Meurer

10:03 PM

Kotlin (programming language)

Kotlin is a statically-typed programming language that runs on the Java Virtual Machine and also can be compiled to JavaScript source code or uses the LLVM compiler infrastructure. Its primary development is from a team of JetBrains programmers based in Saint Petersburg, Russia. While the syntax is not compatible with Java, Kotlin is designed to interoperate with Java code and is reliant on Java code from the existing Java Class Library, such as the collections framework. The name comes from Kotlin Island, near St. Petersburg. Andrey Breslav mentioned that the team decided to name it after an island...

@heather Promising new language

Recently became the new standard for android development

Very flexible

Anonymous

Anonymous

@BernardoMeurer ^

Bernardo Meurer

@blue Good lord, why are you running 32-bit?

Is your CPU 32-bit?

Anonymous

@BernardoMeurer I don't know. My laptop is old :P

Anonymous

@BernardoMeurer I think so

Bernardo Meurer

10:05 PM

Hmm

Mostafa

@blue Do you have the 32-bit version?

Anonymous

It doesn't have any performance issues though :P

Bernardo Meurer

I haven't used an i686 CPU since I owned a Pentium IV desktop in the 2000's

So I'm afraid I cannot help you :/

Anonymous

@Mostafa No. That's why I asked. Even on the official site they don't have a 32-bit version

Bernardo Meurer

It probably doesn't exist

Mostly everyone has dropped or is dropping 32-bit compatibility

Mostafa

10:07 PM

@blue Well on the pirate bay they've got a 32-bit version. go for it

Anonymous

@Mostafa Oh really? Thanks!

Anonymous

I'll check

Just win baby

Dropping compatibility is a mistake

Avantgarde

what a username

Just win baby

Que dot com crash

Bernardo Meurer

10:09 PM

@Justwinbaby It's not, being dragged by Legacy stuff is the true mistake :)

Avantgarde

I need some biryani

:(

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ACuriousMind how do I fix this?

Mostafa

@blue It seems the latest 32-bit version is R2015b

Just win baby

If there was one dot com crash there can be another @BernardoMeurer

Bernardo Meurer

@Justwinbaby I don't understand your connection between the crash and legacy compatibility

Just win baby

10:14 PM

Apple is dropping compatibility also.

Re: iOS 10

People will start boycotts...

Bernardo Meurer

I agree with their move

It's the right way moving forward

i686 must die

Just win baby

If it ain't broke then don't fix it.

Bernardo Meurer

That's the single most stupid motto

Mithrandir24601

@Justwinbaby If everyone took that view then we'd still be somewhere in the middle ages...

Bernardo Meurer

If it ain't broke then break it and build something better

Mostafa

10:18 PM

@0celouvskyopoulo7 No answer

0celouvskyopoulo7

@Mostafa Do you know?

Bernardo Meurer

Also, i686 is very much broken. It has stupid limitations. Recently the chess.com app stopped working on 32-bit devices because too many games had been played!

Mostafa

@0celouvskyopoulo7 No answer from ACM.

Just win baby

He's busy roll playing

Anonymous

10:21 PM

@Mostafa ^ ?

Anonymous

This one ?

Anonymous

BTW I thought piratebay is illegal :P

Mostafa

Yeah
But R2015b for 32-bit is also available

Anonymous

@Mostafa What's the difference between R2015b and R2015a? I can't find the former on the site though

Anonymous

Oh found R2015b also

Mostafa

10:27 PM

@blue That's defenitely unethical, but....what choice you got?

@blue The difference isn't really noticeable en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATLAB#Release_history

Anonymous

@Mostafa Doesn't matter as long as I am not caught by the cops and locked up. :P Anyhow, thanks.

Anonymous

@Mostafa Oh, I see!

Mostafa

:)
np

Just win baby

@Mithrandir24601 I'm just saying learn from the dot com crash mistakes and don't try to force people to buy stuff.

Did you find your shaver @BernardoMeurer?

Bernardo Meurer

@Justwinbaby Nope

Just win baby

10:36 PM

:(

Bernardo Meurer

I now have a weird beard/stash

But I don't care

also my hair is super long

I'm becoming a caveman

Mithrandir24601

@Justwinbaby I agree there are definitely issues with the level of consumerism in the west. Getting the balance right is the issue

Just win baby

Exactly.

Anonymous

@BernardoMeurer How about using scissors? :P

Bernardo Meurer

@blue I do not currently own scissors

ACuriousMind

10:42 PM

@0celouvskyopoulo7 I see nothing to fix

Anonymous

@BernardoMeurer lol, use a knife XD

Bernardo Meurer

@blue I have a machete, and a scalpel

Both of which seem ill suited

I think I'll look like a caveman until a woman makes me clean myself

Anonymous

Cutting Hair With Swords And Fire

►

Anonymous

Take tuitions from this guy ^ :'D

Bernardo Meurer

Good lord

Mostafa

10:57 PM

@BernardoMeurer That's my dream. to leave in a cave with a laptop and an Interet connection (and food, obviously)

Bernardo Meurer

@Mostafa Caves are moist

Mostafa

Avantgarde

wow

Anonymous

@Mostafa Terrible photoshop XD

Bernardo Meurer

LOL

Avantgarde

10:59 PM

so bad that it's actually good

Mostafa

Yeah sorry about that
I used this https://www.photopea.com/

No photoshop

Too expensive

Anonymous

@Mostafa lol, nothing to be sorry about. That was actually funny :D

Anonymous

ho ho

Avantgarde

Happy father's day, everyone

Anonymous

11:08 PM

@Avantgarde Too late, isn't it? :P

Avantgarde

never too late to be a dad

belated father's day

Mostafa

@Avantgarde Is it worth it to become a dad? to marry, in the first place?

@0celouvskyopoulo7 ^

Avantgarde

Depends, @mostafa

Anonymous

@Mostafa @BernardoMeurer Can give the best advice regarding this topic :'D

Bernardo Meurer

Regarding what?

Anonymous

11:11 PM

1 min ago, by Mostafa

@Avantgarde Is it worth it to become a dad? to marry, in the first place?

Bernardo Meurer

Ah, well

Anonymous

Since you are the most experienced guy here :P

Mostafa

The wisest guy here is inarguably ACM but I'm not asking him because he's a-curious anyways

Bernardo Meurer

I think there is great joy to be found in fatherhood, alas I am, obviously not a father. I believe there is something truly beautiful, in an aesthetic way, to teaching a child about the world. Although the weight of bringing another person to this wretched reality is quite heavy IMO.

Anonymous

@Mostafa lol, that's something....new....

Bernardo Meurer

11:13 PM

About getting married, I don't think it should be a requirement for fatherhood. And I believe most western societies hold marriage less and less as a necessity. If you'd like to marry someone for whatever reasons, then by all means do it. Just do not marry out of fear of being left or dying alone. That will only bring you more loneliness

Mostafa

Jun 13 at 18:47, by AccidentalFourierTransform

@Mostafa premarital sex is a sin

Bernardo Meurer

@Mostafa There is no such thing as a sin

heather

@Bernardo "there is no such thing as a sin" = "people can do no wrong" - which is obviously not true.

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Sin is, "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law"

Anonymous

@Mostafa Well, that depends on the type of society you live in. Logically there's nothing wrong with it as long as one takes necessary steps to ensure safety.

Bernardo Meurer

11:21 PM

So unless you believe all of moral to be determined by god and the divine your statement is bonkers

My point is there is no such thing as divine law, or as attacks against God, and therefore there is no such thing as a sin

I didn't say "no such thing as unethical" or "no such thing as immoral", those, perhaps, your argument would be effective against

But as it stands you just did a strawman :P

0celouvskyopoulo7

Teaching a child about the wonders of analysis would be nice indeed.

Bernardo Meurer

@0celouvskyopoulo7 We should teach Will and Lucas

0celouvskyopoulo7

First, you're not teaching anything

Second, how do you know their names?

Bernardo Meurer

You realize I talk with your sisters a lot, right?

And they send me pictures and we talk about all of you

0celouvskyopoulo7

No

Bernardo Meurer

11:24 PM

I'll teach them how to pickup women at the aiport

Anonymous

@0celouvskyopoulo7 That's why mathematician's children generally seem to be repelled by mathematics :P.

ACuriousMind

@BernardoMeurer It's funny how the "immoral" there makes the sentence a pleonasm for those who believe in divine law as ultimate morality, but leads to "What do you call a moral act considered to be a transgression against divine law?" for the rest

Bernardo Meurer

@ACuriousMind Hehehe, that is quite curious indeed, nice catch

heather

well, here's a thought @Bernardo - isn't the purpose of govt/govt law to set up "sins" and punish them; i.e., instead of divine law, it is "societal" or "governmental" law.

Bernardo Meurer

I guess gluttony is moral for the most part, but still is a transgression of (christian) divine law

Anonymous

11:27 PM

@heather There's a difference between "sin" and "crime"

Bernardo Meurer

@heather No, because sins are transgressions of divine law, and that has nothing to do (or shouldn't have) with the government or the law (of man)

Anonymous

"sin" is actually very subjective

Anonymous

"crime" is objective

heather

eh, it depends on how you define morality @Bernardo - how do you define morality without an all powerful God with the ability to do so? (I'm saying this in an abstract sense, not in terms of a specific God)

Bernardo Meurer

A sin is necessarily attached to some for of divine ethic

ACuriousMind

11:28 PM

@heather Most people take the word "sin" to have a religious connotation; if you don't, then you and Bernardo are simply not talking about the same thing when you use the word "sin".

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Eh, By creating a code of moral? You're going in over your head with this

Mostafa

@heather This is the most basic question

heather

@ACuriousMind I think the purpose of the term sin is merely to convey a crime against a code of laws/morals set up by some person or body, be that God or the government.

Bernardo Meurer

You don't need Jesus to state that theft is immoral

@heather No. A sin is specific to a religious code

heather

normally, it's used with God as that body, but the point is that it is a crime against some moral code.

@Bernardo okay, then how do you "know" that theft is immoral? Who created that law?

ACuriousMind

11:29 PM

@heather As I said, you can think that, but then you two are talking about different things. There's little point in arguing about definitions like that.

Bernardo Meurer

@heather No, not some moral code, a religious moral code

@heather Man did

heather

@Bernardo which man? man as a whole? how did man as a whole come up with it?

Avantgarde

https://youtu.be/Taa8dTvyLdo
for anyone who wants background music along the way

Bernardo Meurer

@heather The dictionary definition in English for the word "sin" bounds it to Religion. A crime against man is not a sin, it's just a crime

@heather Depends where you are, somewhere stealing may not be considered immoral I suppose

heather

@Bernardo we don't need to argue about the definition, I suppose.

@Bernardo, okay, let's consider somewhere where stealing is considered immoral.

how did we come up with that?

Bernardo Meurer

11:31 PM

@heather Any Western country, sure

Mostafa

@BernardoMeurer In some cases you do need: when it becomes hard to decide what is moral and what is not. When acting morally can have huge expenses for you for example

Anonymous

What passes as a "sin" depends on the society you live in and the religion you follow. For example in India it is a "sin" to step on books with your feet (according to people's beliefs). But that is definitely not a "crime" in legal terms. There's absolutely no need to formulate a list of "sins" as it is a very subjective thing.

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ACuriousMind come on...

Mostafa

Think of atomic bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki as an example

ACuriousMind

@0celouvskyopoulo7 Hm?

heather

11:32 PM

how do you trust man, who is fallible, to come up with a consistent moral code that is worthy of being followed?

0celouvskyopoulo7

@BernardoMeurer I don't think I could have children. You could have one that becomes a democrat or a set theorist.

Bernardo Meurer

I don't know, this sort of blatant immorality is marked as such since the old times. Overall morals are social constructs @heather, people decide on them as silent social contracts

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ACuriousMind I asked you a question hours ago

About your favorite topic

ACuriousMind

50 mins ago, by ACuriousMind

@0celouvskyopoulo7 I see nothing to fix

0celouvskyopoulo7

Hmm

You don't see the large white space?

Bernardo Meurer

11:33 PM

@Mostafa If your code of morals relies on divinity then it's a bad code of morals. People may need Divine aid to follow the morals, but that's their problem

heather

@Bernardo, what makes those contracts worthy of being followed - i.e., what gives them any sense of legitimacy? How does that contract win out over a contract where theft isn't immoral?

ACuriousMind

@heather That's...just rephrasing the basic question of ethics.

(Although some would not use the diction of 'contracts')

Bernardo Meurer

@heather The fact that everyone agrees on them? Or at least is willing to abide by them. Most things are only worth what people are willing to value it at. If everyone suddenly refused to use Dollars, they wouldn't have any real worth. In the same sense here, if everyone chose to leave the common morals aside then they'd have no value at all

heather

@ACuriousMind, I didn't know that =P does that make the question any less important, though?

ACuriousMind

@0celouvskyopoulo7 Oh, you don't like that the box has its own line?

0celouvskyopoulo7

11:35 PM

Yeah

Bernardo Meurer

@heather It wins over because more people feel like theft is bad for themselves i guess. Which it obviously is since it denies the sense of value in things, which is crucial for us

heather

@Bernardo everyone "agreed" in the deep south during an era, that african-americans were inferior to caucasians. but i think we'd both agree that's immoral. that was a social contract agreed upon, so how do we judge them for that?

ACuriousMind

@heather ...you don't see that you're basically asking "Why should what we call good/moral be called that?"

Bernardo Meurer

@0celouvskyopoulo7 If my kid becomes a democrat I'll be sad

ACuriousMind

That's, like, the very question every moral system tries to answer

heather

11:36 PM

@ACuriousMind, yeah, I see that - that's my question, and I'm asking it about Bernardo's system.

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Sure, on out moral code it's immoral, for them it was perfectly moral

@heather My system?

heather

@Bernardo your system for the purpose of this discussion, I agree theft is immoral

ACuriousMind

@0celouvskyopoulo7 I fear you cannot end the proof with a displayed equation and not have it make a newline, although I will not discount that the wizards at tex.SE know some way

Bernardo Meurer

We judge them by showing that their agreement upon the morality of slavery was bigoted, i.e. that it contradicted their other moral beliefs

That's how I do it at least

ACuriousMind

How did we get here from discussing fatherhood? :P

heather

11:38 PM

@Bernardo what beliefs did it contradict?

Anonymous

There's actually an easy way to frame your moral code. Just ask yourself "Is the act harmful to anyone else directly or indirectly?". @heather

heather

@ACuriousMind fatherhood -> marriage -> sex before marriage -> bernardo said no such thing as sin -> defining sin -> moral systems

ACuriousMind

That was a rhetorical question :P

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Freedom?

heather

@Bernardo their belief was in freedom for a certain type of person.

Anonymous

11:39 PM

Let's get back to talking about fatherhood :P

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Yes and that's obviously bigoted, because there's no such thing as a "type" of person

heather

@Bernardo type in terms of skin color - I used "type" poorly.

Mostafa

@ACuriousMind It was @AccidentalFourierTransform 's fault, not mine

heather

@blue okay, let me push the boundaries of your system a bit then. I'm hungry. I get something to eat. That food could have gone to someone who's starving, so I'm indirectly hurting someone. But I think we'd both agree it's not immoral to eat that food.

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Yes, and that is pointless, They based their morality of slavery on the "fact" that africans were less human than Europeans, which was scientifically believed, at least in part, at the time. There was this vision that they were somewhere between apes and humans, which is obviously stupid but was believed back then. We now know this to be bonkers

heather

11:43 PM

@Bernardo their system was "moral", our system is moral but shows theirs to be immoral. Morality can change over time, then. That reduces the legitimacy of any moral system.

Bernardo Meurer

And of course nearing the end of slavery everyone knew that was BS, but they did not want to loose their work force and their power, so they broke their own code of moral

@heather You're saying there's no absolutely legitimate moral system? Sure, I'll stand by that

@ACuriousMind thoughts?

Anonymous

@heather The best option would be to feed yourself enough first and then offer the rest to the starving person. Even though you'd be hurting someone it would be a necessary evil. The aim should be to minimize the hurt that your acts can cause to yourself and others. Call it the "principle of minimum immorality" or something like that.

heather

okay, so we get to that there's no absolutely legitimate moral system. what's the point then? if our system of morality isn't legitimate, why should we judge anyone else's system?

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Because we believe ours to be better than theirs :^)

It may not be perfect, but we believe in our beliefs

heather

@Bernardo that's circular

Bernardo Meurer

11:47 PM

Why do you think we're all going around killing each other for thousands of years :P

0celouvskyopoulo7

@ACuriousMind Is that god's way of telling me I should not end a proof with a displayed eq.?

heather

@Bernardo 1. your system isn't absolutely legitimate. 2. therefore your system can't judge other systems. 3. your system directly contradicts multiple systems in very important ways. 4. what's the point of any of them? how can one be truly moral in your system? you can't.

ACuriousMind

@BernardoMeurer I agree there is no "absolute morality".

@heather What does it mean for a system to be "absolutely legitimate"? I think that's an ill-defined notion to begin with.

@0celouvskyopoulo7 Yes, for values of god = Knuth ;)

0celouvskyopoulo7

What do?

Bernardo Meurer

@heather ZFC may be inconsistent, that doesn't make it useless does it?

heather

11:50 PM

@ACuriousmind well you saw our conversation - our moral system contradicts other moral systems. If our moral system is just as legitimate as the other, neither is absolutely legitimate.

Bernardo Meurer

@heather There is no absolutely legitimate, you're making a bogus point

0celouvskyopoulo7

@BernardoMeurer oh not this again

heather

@Bernardo that's set theory. This is morals. I think that's very different. Yes, your morals aren't useless, but they aren't fully useful.

ACuriousMind

@0celouvskyopoulo7 Add a useless afterthought like "which shows the proposition" ;D

heather

a moral system can only be "fully" moral if it is absolutely legitimate. it can only be absolutely legitimate if it is given by someone who is completely perfect, and all-knowing, and knows what the absolute system is. aka, God.

0celouvskyopoulo7

11:51 PM

@ACuriousMind Or I just write the whole thing off as an exercise for the reader

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Really? They're not truly useful? You're saying Western morals are not truly useful?

Take a breath and think that over

ACuriousMind

@heather I repeat, what does "absolutely legitimate" mean? Or, one step before that, what does "legitimate" mean?

Bernardo Meurer

@heather If you end this talk by trying to show that true morals must be divine I will throw up and leave

0celouvskyopoulo7

Can we please get on topic

ACuriousMind

@0celouvskyopoulo7 Can you really do that witha clear conscience, keeping in mind how often you've raged about people leaving things as exercises? :P

0celouvskyopoulo7

11:54 PM

@ACuriousMind to be fair, I rage over things that are legitimately hard

the schwarz inequality is not...

ACuriousMind

Well, why does it need its own proposition if you think it's "obvious"? Why not just use it as fact when you need it (or show it in that one line the first time you use it)?

0celouvskyopoulo7

It isn't obvious. It is in fact surprising

But the proof is the same as the usual Schwarz inequality

modulo a $\le $ being a $\ge $

heather

sorry had to do something for my mom

@Bernardo they are useful, but not fully so. the system of western morals has over time contradicted itself, lead to arguments, and as you said, wars. it's useful, but not as useful as it could be.

Bernardo Meurer

@heather No, quite on the opposite, it is exactly as useful as it can be

heather

@ACuriousMind legitimate: are a true set of morals that are worthy of being followed

approximately, i'm bad at phrasing things.

@Bernardo wouldn't a system of morals that is absolutely legitimate be more useful?

ACuriousMind

11:59 PM

@0celouvskyopoulo7 I think I'd go for proving it the first time I use it for something else.

Transcript for