The h Bar

ACuriousMind

16:00

@BalarkaSen What's this 10+2 you keep mentioning? Why not '12'? :P

Yashas

10+2 includes both 11 and 12

Fawad

@ACuriousMind 12 didn't show 11 is included

Yashas

@Koolman I don't want to ask him to unblock. Let him do whenever he wants.

ACuriousMind

@Yashas ...both 11 and 12 what?

Balarka Sen

@Yashas I know they love what they do. But it's really a rut, which I am not sure how much these people realize. I have talked to actual mathematicians involved in education in India and they blame that for the completely terrible mathematics syllabi in 80% of India post-school.

dmckee

16:01

@0celouvsky Dude. I actually agree with your opinion of JEE questions. But you use the chat for hundreds of exchanged messages on abstract mathematics that most users of Physics couldn't care less about, and no one calls you names about it. So just lay of the being a jerk, already. Please.

Yashas

@ACuriousMind 11th and 12th grade

ACuriousMind

So..."10+2" is a strange way to say "11th and 12th grade"?

I'm confused.

Balarka Sen

@ACuriousMind Yeah.

0celouvsky

@dmckee The message you linked is completely unrelated to JEE.

Yashas

yup.... I figured it out today as well

Anonymous

16:02

@BalarkaSen That is true. Agreed. But there is no alternative, is there? We need to break through the system first, to change it. Just whining doesn't help.

Balarka Sen

It really means 10 + i, i = 1, 2.

ACuriousMind

@BalarkaSen lol

Koolman

@ACuriousMind It's just a notation

Balarka Sen

@blue Well, first, I'm not a JEE chap. I only brought it up because that's what the conversation is going on about. I do not agree with the break through thing but that's personal opinion.

ACuriousMind

@BalarkaSen Consider switching to 11 + i, i = 0, 1. Proper indexing starts at 0!

Anonymous

16:04

@BalarkaSen What do you not agree about the "break through" thing?

0celouvsky

@ACuriousMind What?

Anonymous

You mean we shouldn't join college after HS?

Balarka Sen

I do not agree that you have to go through it to change it.

Yashas

Changes are happening.

Balarka Sen

But I am not suggesting anyone anything.

Anonymous

16:05

@BalarkaSen What other way is there to get admitted to a college to study engineering?

Fawad

@ACuriousMind 0!=1 be careful!

ACuriousMind

@blue Comrade Sen has a more...direct view of how to change things, I think ;P

Balarka Sen

@blue Ah, but I'm speaking exclusively about math, not engineering.

@ACuriousMind Revolution, workers!

Anonymous

@ACuriousMind Like, go on to the road and protest with flags?

Anonymous

Or a naked march down the highway?

Yashas

16:06

@Fawad I think that ! was an exclamation mark; he did not mean to say 0 factorial

0celouvsky

please don't

ACuriousMind

Mar 30 at 19:34, by AccidentalFourierTransform

seize the means of production!

0celouvsky

why is this chat full of communists

Balarka Sen

Get a Mao Tse Tung and nominate him our chairman.

Easily solved.

Yashas

:|

Koolman

16:07

:-(

Anonymous

We need to reduce the population

Yashas

The probability that 0cleo starred @blue's message is 1

Anonymous

That is the only way to get rid of JEE

ACuriousMind

@blue That's really not an appropriate thing to say

Balarka Sen

Mao Tse Tung has a harmless solution for that: Cannibalize.

0celouvsky

16:08

@ACuriousMind He is Indian

@BalarkaSen lol

John Rennie

@blue Please do not do this. The world does not need more naked physicists. Specifically, the world does not need any naked physicists.

ACuriousMind

@0celouvsky So what? Suggesting mass murder is not appropriate no matter your relation to the target.

Koolman

The population can be migrated @blue

0celouvsky

@ACuriousMind Who said anything about mass murder?

The nukes didn't have to hit anyone

ACuriousMind

@JohnRennie More videos denouncing SE and JohnRennie would be hilarious, though :P

Fawad

16:10

@JohnRennie by naked physicist you are scared again?

Yashas

Is "naked physicists" some sort of metaphor?

Anonymous

@JohnRennie lol :D

John Rennie

@ACuriousMind oh yes, I'd forgotten about that particular naked physicist :-)

0celouvsky

"physicist"

ACuriousMind

@Yashas Not at all. (questionably SFW)

Balarka Sen

16:11

Is that like Naked Lunch, but about physics?

Fawad

@ACuriousMind lol,I was searching ,you are fast

dmckee

@JohnRennie Even among physicsist a few are blessed with good looks. And a subset of those manage to remain trim and fit during their gradschool and postdoc years.

In the right venue, for the right audience I think the world would survive their nakedness.

Balarka Sen

@ACuriousMind Who the hell is that?!

0celouvsky

are engineers more attractive than physicists on average?

Balarka Sen

I have no idea what the hell is that.

dmckee

16:12

Which, of course, has nothing to do with the guy on youtube.

Balarka Sen

But lmfao

John Rennie

@dmckee the truth is that no-one looks good naked. The humans who make their living from being naked enjoy the careful attentions of skilled make-up artists and cameramen.

Fawad

@BalarkaSen he was saying physics stackexchange is worst and some wrong thing about John Rennie

ACuriousMind

@BalarkaSen It's...a naked physicist.

0celouvsky

@JohnRennie That attitude explains your affinity for sheep. They're always clothed.

ACuriousMind

16:13

For a lenient definition of "physicist"

John Rennie

@BalarkaSen it makes me laugh every time. I'm chuckling now even though I've seen the video several times :-)

Balarka Sen

@ACuriousMind Dude that's a brave new concept

how come i never saw this before

John Rennie

@0celouvsky I own a set of shears - just saying ... :-)

Fawad

@BalarkaSen because you never searched "why I hate stackexchange"

ACuriousMind

@BalarkaSen Oh, it's been linked in this chat before.

John Rennie

16:16

@0celouvsky No, absolutely not

0celouvsky

@JohnRennie You're a chemist, what dog do you have in this fight?

Balarka Sen

Hey, c'mon, he was just arguing that photons aren't magical super brainy smart thingies.

That sounds fair to me.

This gives the first line of Ginsberg I quoted this morning a whole new meaning, ya'know?

Anonymous

@0celouvsky Chemists know a lot about "chemistry" ;)

Anonymous

And they are good at it =P

0celouvsky

Some chemists abuse their powers

John Rennie

16:24

@0celouvsky I'm a physical chemist. That's physical as in buff!

(And if you believe that ...)

@blue I have to say I found chemistry hugely frustrating to learn. It's a hideous mishmash of hundreds of empirical laws, most of which only work some of the time.

Yashas

Chemistry sucks

John Rennie

At least physical chemistry, and in particular colloid science, is reasonably mathematical.

0celouvsky

here we go again

john rennie and his milk

John Rennie

I have never worked on milk - I'm sure I've said that before ...

Anonymous

@JohnRennie Then why did you join that course? I mean you could have joined a physics course in college

0celouvsky

16:30

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

John Rennie

I worked mostly on particle dispersions, with and without polymers present in solution.

0celouvsky

lol

what just happened

ACuriousMind

@0celouvsky you...sumitted a bunch of dollar signs

0celouvsky

to indicate JR's motive

hit mathjax

John Rennie

Oh no, it's that let's break Latex time again :-)

@blue At Cambridge there aren't separate Chemistry and Physics degrees. Everyone does the degree Natural Sciences and you choose courses that suit your interests. I specialised in quantum mechanics, but found myself most interested in applying it to molecular properties.

Then a PhD in solid state photochemistry kind of followed naturally from that.

So I became a chemist too gradually for me to notice and take evasive action.

Anonymous

16:35

@JohnRennie Oh, that's same as the IISERs here. I don't really like that kind of system which doesn't let you specialize/focus on a subject after high school.

Anonymous

@JohnRennie Interesting. You got a wide exposure though. That's one good thing

John Rennie

@blue I have to say I think the Cambridge system works really well. If students want to specialise they can after the first year, and there is lots of support for people wanting to dive really deeply e.g. in quantum field theory.

Cambridge has, after all, produced one or two famous physicists.

Anonymous

@JohnRennie Oh, if that is true. Then great! :-) I don't know much about Cambridge. That's good to know then!

dmckee

@JohnRennie A big chuck of my (much hated) intro chemistry courses only made sense when I got around to doing atomic physics in grad school. Then I had a series of "Oh! That's why the way they do it makes sense!" moments.

0celouvsky

@ACuriousMind So I have this function $\phi(x,y,\xi)$ where $x,y,\xi\in\Bbb R^n$, given by $(x,y,\xi)\mapsto \langle x-y,\xi\rangle$ (dot product)

For this to work in this theorem I need it to have "for each fixed $x$ no critical points $(y,\xi)$"

John Rennie

16:40

@dmckee Chemists come up with silly rules about back bonding, dative bonds, and so on, and so on. I agree with you that they only make sense when you learn MO theory.

But at e.g. JEE level you just have to learn all the silly rules and don't get to learn the underlying physics.

0celouvsky

But suppose I fix $x=0$. Then $(\nabla_y\phi)^i=-\xi^i$ and $(\nabla_\xi\phi)^i=-y^i$.

So why not just pick $y=0, \xi=0$ as a critical point?

dmckee

@JohnRennie By university I wasn't satisfied by that anymore. Maybe if I had looked hard at chemistry a little earlier. Or later when I had the background.

Of course, I had to come to terms with it again as we dove into some of the heavy stuff where you learn and apply the formalism and only develop a good understanding over time and use.

Secret

Speaking about quantum chemistry, for some reason I got a saddle point that has 28 imaginary frequencies

0celouvsky

their language is really fuzzy, I can't tell if $\xi=0$ is even allowed

Anonymous

16:55

@JohnRennie I think that is a wrong impression you've got. We don't "just" learn the silly rules. Yes, there are some silly rules (say 20 percent of the syllabus), but the rest of it, we really have to learn in depth. You'll get a good idea if you see a few past papers. One can't solve them without a good knowledge of the underlying concepts.

Cows

@0celouvsky I have been reading basic math, topology first , before I take on analysis

@0celouvsky I also decided to think of vectors the math way. It turns out I need a vector space to talk about a vector. Mind blown!

Anyways It is amazing how much made I don't really know well(precisely)

@Kaumudi.H hi

Emilio Pisanty

hey chat folks, how do I search for images I've posted here?

Fawad

@EmilioPisanty images with imgur link?

Emilio Pisanty

↑ that is obviously not really right

Swapnil Das

@JohnRennie I've heard that those who do Theoretical Physics go on for Math Tripos. Isn't this specialization?

Anonymous

17:08

31 mins ago, by John Rennie

@blue I have to say I think the Cambridge system works really well. If students want to specialise they can after the first year, and there is lots of support for people wanting to dive really deeply e.g. in quantum field theory.

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas

Swapnil Das

Oho.

@blue What do you think, is early specialization nice?

I like it, I even want a high school specialization.

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas I think it should be the right amount of focus. Not so much of say GR that you know nothing about classical mechanics.

Swapnil Das

That's not specialization. That's jumping.

Fawad

@EmilioPisanty time for meta post?

Anonymous

17:11

@SwapnilDas Jumping? You don't need to know the details of classical mechanics to know GR (AFAIK)

Emilio Pisanty

@Fawad ::sigh::

not sure I can be bothered

Swapnil Das

@blue But that's not the way you study it, right?

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas Some people and some colleges do..

Swapnil Das

They are idiots.

They escape the basics to grasp higher physics? Damn.

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas Many people do that....

Anonymous

17:15

Rather their education system allows them to that

Swapnil Das

Yuk. I don't think they'll be successful later.

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas Don't know. Just that I wouldn't like to be like that.

Swapnil Das

And no one should be.

There are guys who 'try' to master relativity without having the capability of solving projectile problems.

0celouvsky

What do projectile problems have to do with differential geometry?

@blue You're correct

Swapnil Das

@0celouvsky They demand basic insights to the systems of the world.

Anonymous

17:22

@0celouvsky My and Swapnil's point is that we wouldn't like to be a physicist who knows "only" differential geometry or GR and almost nothing about mechanics or thermodynamics. That's a preference. Atleast for me. Won't comment if either of the options are good or bad.

0celouvsky

I'm not making a comment about that...I'm just agreeing with you that projectiles have nothing to do with GR

Swapnil Das

Oh, maybe. You're much more experienced.

Anonymous

@0celouvsky Indeed it doesn't.

Cows

@0celouvsky should I brush up on linear maps and tensors(math) just as well as vectors before diving into analysis?

0celouvsky

@Cows You don't need to know anything about tensors unless you're trying to do distribution theory.

But linear maps are very important. What book are you planning on starting with?

Swapnil Das

17:24

@0celouvsky What are your views about the skipping thing? I'll want to know.

Cows

@0celouvsky I was thinking about analysis of functions, then later on something more abstract

0celouvsky

@SwapnilDas I learned quantum mechanics and GR before classical physics and it worked out fine. I don't know how you're not supposed to skip, everything you learn in school is really boring (regardless of how important it is).

@Cows From the book I suggested, or?

Cows

@0celouvsky yeah

0celouvsky

@Cows Well wait a moment. If you're having to review linear algebra then I'm assuming you don't know advanced calculus?

Swapnil Das

@0celouvsky Formally? I mean, with the mathematics?

0celouvsky

17:27

i.e. differential calculus in many variables

@SwapnilDas Yes, formally.

Swapnil Das

Hmm. Seems an altogether different story.

Cows

@0celouvsky oh no I have taken it , but I just wanted to read on it again, since I will be reading this time for myself not for an exam lolz

0celouvsky

@Cows So you're familiar with multivariable Riemann integration?

Cows

@0celouvsky yes

0celouvsky

Can you prove basic facts, i.e. can you show that a monotone bounded function is Riemann integrable on $[a,b]$?

user228700

17:29

@Cows Hello. Don't think we've met before...

0celouvsky

@Kaumudi.H Fitting.

Cow and Cow Smoothie.

user228700

Omg x'D

Cows

@Kaumudi.H oh hey. great to meet you. :D

Swapnil Das

Hi! @Kaumudi.H

user228700

@Cows It's nice to meet you too :-) U pinged me before..?

user228700

17:30

@SwapnilDas Hey!

Cows

@Kaumudi.H yes :P

ACuriousMind

@EmilioPisanty Try searching for .png

Swapnil Das

Could anyone advise me about solving problems fast?

Fawad

@ACuriousMind worked!

Swapnil Das

It seems to me like I consume a lot of time on problems.

Cows

17:32

@0celouvsky lol a bit rusty, but probably could, at least have done it before lol

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas You don't need to

Anonymous

Solving them correctly is what matters

Swapnil Das

hein why?

Solving fast implies conceptual clarity and clear insights.

Anonymous

Speed comes automatically

Anonymous

Once you understand the physics well

0celouvsky

17:34

@Cows just start reading Lieb and Loss and see how it works out

Anonymous

If you are slow most probably your concepts are weak

Swapnil Das

I realize that you're true.

0celouvsky

the exercises are super hard btw

Swapnil Das

@blue I'm not slow, I'm lazy :P

I need to practice that's all. Thanks.

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas I can suggest something. Try to get every problem correct at the first go regardless of the time taken. You'll see your speed rising rapidly, in a few months.

Swapnil Das

17:36

Ohk. I'll try that tell you about my progress.

Anonymous

Sure

Cows

@0celouvsky nice. I should start this Monday.

Swapnil Das

@blue Are you Indian?

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas Yes

Swapnil Das

Oh, JEE man.

Anonymous

17:37

hehe

Swapnil Das

Appeared JEE?

Anonymous

Will

Anonymous

21 st may

Swapnil Das

next year?

Oh

How was mains?

Anonymous

good

Anonymous

17:37

around 240-250

Swapnil Das

Score?

Great!

Anonymous

:-)

Swapnil Das

Subjectwise?

Anonymous

90+ in PC

Swapnil Das

Cool.

0celouvsky

17:38

PC?

Swapnil Das

Physics chem

ACuriousMind

Did we somehow abandon the notion of full sentences and I just missed it? :P

0celouvsky

@ACuriousMind no/you pbly missed it/etc.

Swapnil Das

In India, don't expect JEEians to use full words for Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics.

They are PCM.

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas lol

Anonymous

17:39

we're so used to PCM

Swapnil Das

Lol, but true fact.

Yes.

@0celouvsky Guess what's P n C?

ACuriousMind

@0celouvsky I chuckled.

Swapnil Das

Don't tell answer JEEians.

ACuriousMind

Pork and Chops, obviously :P

Swapnil Das

:P

0celouvsky

17:41

@SwapnilDas Promethazine and Cocaine

Swapnil Das

Lol no.

Permutations and Combinations ,i.e. Combinatorics.

ACuriousMind

@0celouvsky An odd combination.

DanielSank

Hi, everybody.

0celouvsky

@ACuriousMind It's like vodka and Red Bull but more :D

Anonymous

We use short names for every chapter...AOD for Application Of Derivatives, II for indefinite integration and so on @SwapnilDas

Anonymous

17:42

GOC for general organic chem

ACuriousMind

@0celouvsky I'll take your word for it

user228700

@DanielSank Hi :-) How's it going?

Swapnil Das

The last one I knew. I'm still to enter the JEE world. Adventure starts tomorrow ;)

DanielSank

@0celouvsky You do the same thing, bro.

@Kaumudi.H Good. Almost done with my circuit board!

Hopefully, done by the end of the day. Wooooo!

Speaking of which, I better get my lazy @$$ to work.

user228700

I didn't know you were working on a circuit board of some kind but nice! :-)

0celouvsky

17:44

@DanielSank What did I do now?

DanielSank

@Kaumudi.H Yeah it's really cool. I'll post a picture of the layout later so everyone can "ooh" and "aah" it.

Heheheh

@0celouvsky Exercise hypocrisy.

:-)

I gotta go

Laterz

0celouvsky

Uh, what?

user228700

@DanielSank Lol OK! :-P Bye!

Swapnil Das

How many here have not listened Channa Mereya? :P

user228700

@SwapnilDas The majority, I would say :-P

Swapnil Das

17:45

oh, yeah :P

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas I've listened. What about it?

Anonymous

I really like it

Swapnil Das

same here. short but beautiful.

0celouvsky

@ACuriousMind Is $\mathbb C_X$ a sheaf notation for $C^\infty(X,\Bbb C)$?

user228700

The songs are great but the movie. Jesus Christ! I read the Wiki page and that itself sounded terrible. Imagine having to sit through the whole movie for close to 2 hours!

Anonymous

17:46

@Kaumudi.H The movie was really good.

0celouvsky

Indians say JC?

ACuriousMind

@0celouvsky perhaps? Not one that's set in stone.

Anonymous

@0celouvsky Many do

Swapnil Das

@0celouvsky JC?

oh!

user228700

@0celouvsky Some Indians are Christian. I've picked up the habit even though I'm not.

0celouvsky

17:47

@SwapnilDas Jesus Christ.

ACuriousMind

@DanielSank I'll "ooh" if I can even remotely tell what I'm looking at ;P

user228700

@blue :-P I see. The plot seemed crappy (af) so I decided not to watch it.

Swapnil Das

oh. yeah.

0celouvsky

@ACuriousMind This book uses $C^\infty(E)$ for sections and $\Bbb C_E$ for functions

It's confusing at times

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas I just couldn't get the first few lines out of my head for a few weeks...its so beautiful '"Acha chalta hoon
Duaaon mein yaad rakhna
Mere zikr ka zubaan pe swaad rakhna"

0celouvsky

17:48

was wondering if that's a sheaf thing

user228700

@blue Yes, the lyrics really are beautiful.

user228700

"Kitni dafaa subah ko meri, tere aangan mein baithe maine shaam kiya" That's an excellent way of putting it.

Anonymous

@Kaumudi.H =D

Swapnil Das

Andhera tera is my fav part.

user228700

Gosh, I hope we don't get even more flak from @0celouvsky for discussing Hindi music now! :-P

Swapnil Das

17:51

It's better than all other parts.

0celouvsky

I'm running to get food because I'm literally dying

Anonymous

@SwapnilDas yep, that too!

0celouvsky

No time for me to get upset at you

user228700

@SwapnilDas Musically yes, that one is excellent.

Anonymous

@Kaumudi.H He should hear that song.

user228700

17:52

@0celouvsky Lol. OK.

Swapnil Das

One can appreciate the beauty of the song, even without understanding.

user228700

@SwapnilDas It's strange; I liked "24k magic" almost as much as I did "Channa Mereya" but for completely different reasons, of course. Now I will shamelessly plug one of my favorite channels on YouTube by linking a video explaining why 24k magic is addicting:

user228700

Why Bruno Mars' '24K Magic' Makes You Dance

►

Swapnil Das

:P

My goodness, I was to do relative motion in 10:30 PM ;P

Btw, I've decided to kill any hardcore Tesla fan, if I find any.

0celouvsky

@Kaumudi.H Ok, I'm good now

How DARE you discuss Hindi music here

user228700

17:58

How have u managed to eat so quickly?

0celouvsky

I am in the process of eating

Anonymous

He is too offended to eat

Anonymous

=D

0celouvsky

Lol

You're causing me to starve

user228700

@0celouvsky Eyy, I touched on some English music as well, if u'll notice!

0celouvsky

17:59

English as in British?

That's worse! We fought a war with them?

user228700

@0celouvsky No. American, I suppose.

Anonymous

I get offended everytime I see a particular guy from America on TV

user228700

Ah, there's the stuff! x'D Now let's get everyone riled up!

0celouvsky

@blue I know. Obama boils my blood.

Anonymous

I just can't tolerate him.

Anonymous

18:03

@0celouvsky Na, that guy has orange hair.

user228700

Wokay, I'm out. Toodles!

0celouvsky

@Kaumudi.H ok Mr freeman

user228700

O_o

0celouvsky

@Kaumudi.H have you not watched the boondocks?

Anonymous

18:37

@Yashas Have a question on inductor circuit. Are you around?

0celouvsky

@blue Is that physics?

Anonymous

@0celouvsky Yes

0celouvsky

I will trust you I guess

Anonymous

You want to try?

Anonymous

Wait, let me type it down

0celouvsky

18:47

I am busy with math

Anonymous

Oh, okay. I'll wait for Yashas

DanielSank

19:02

@ACuriousMind Here is promised image

@Kaumudi.H

0celouvsky

ooooo

ahhhhhh

Bernardo Meurer

@DanielSank Sweet

0celouvsky

@BernardoMeurer where were you hiding?

DanielSank

@BernardoMeurer <3

0celouvsky

@DanielSank nothing for me?

Bernardo Meurer

19:03

@0celouvsky In the Azores

@DanielSank <3

DanielSank

@BernardoMeurer It's not done and I think I have to flip the final amplifier upside down.

@0celouvsky <3

0celouvsky

<3

DanielSank

Power routing issues...

0celouvsky

ice cream cones?

Bernardo Meurer

@DanielSank Just double the power

That's how I fix issues in circuits

0celouvsky

19:08

@BernardoMeurer we have a power issue at my lab

will doubling the power help?

Bernardo Meurer

Yes

Whenever you face an issue in electronics you double the power

and if that doesn't work you proceed to double again

0celouvsky

but the fuse is already blowing :/

DanielSank

@BernardoMeurer It's not a power problem, it's actually a problem in topology.

:-D

@0celouvsky halp

0celouvsky

oh god

DanielSank

You're good at topology, right?

0celouvsky

19:10

I wonder what you think topology is

DanielSank

The study of open sets.

0celouvsky

@DanielSank certain kinds of topology

Bernardo Meurer

Eventually you either die, in which case you've solved your issue by eliminating it completely, or you destroy the equipment, in which case the issue no longer exists!

DanielSank

Also, the study of things that are invariant as you continuously deform a stuff.

Bernardo Meurer

@DanielSank Doesn't matter, more power

0celouvsky

19:10

@DanielSank what are the open sets of your circuit?

DanielSank

Right, @0celouvsky.

@0celouvsky I'm more in the "invariants when you deform stuff" category.

0celouvsky

ok

DanielSank

The link between these two notions of topology remains to be seen.

0celouvsky

I think that what you're after is more graph theory

but what seems to be the issue

DanielSank

See image above

How to route the 5V and 3.3 V power planes?

I have four layers.

Go.

0celouvsky

19:12

I don't know what those are

and it is indeed a graph theory problem :P

0celouvsky

19:47

@BalarkaSen It's hard to read a book that's longer than ~150 pages

Interest really tanks at that point

Transcript for