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16:00
@Obliv that's not abstract.
@0celo7 can you see a manifold in the sky
@Obliv Of course. All modern planes have them.
@Obliv depends what you've been smoking ...
@0celo7 can you see a plane in the sky?
@Obliv yes.
16:08
@Obliv I've never seen two planes in the same place in the sky - proof that planes are fermions.
@johnR xkcd.com/687 reminds me
Good old XKCD :-)
user116211
16:20
I'm still seeing secret's AMA post as featured in the main site:
user116211
user116211
DavidZ has removed the featured tag 7 hrs ago ;/
@0celo7 I checked, and the first exercise of Jech's book is a triviality for a freshman
@yuggib prove (1.1)?
@MAFIA36790 Yeah I'm not sure what's up with that. Some things are cached for 24 hours so I'll give it until tomorrow.
16:32
I literally have no idea what there is to prove
I do not understand the statement
It's highly nontrivial
@0celo7 it's explained just below (1.1) what you have to prove
Thank you ACM.
Namely that with the set theoretic definition of ordered pair given, (1.1) is satisfied
@SpaceOtter ACM pointed out some of what I said about string theory could have been better phrased. if you're interested you might want to go back and check what he said.
I don't understand
16:35
ACM putting John Rennie straight since 2014 @ACuriousMind
Starting at:
2 hours ago, by ACuriousMind
First, relating string theory modes to ordinary particle modes is perfectly well understood: It can be shown that the tree-level string interactions always correspond exactly to the amplitudes of a quantum field theory. This QFT is called the "effective QFT" associated to a particular string model.
Ya I read it thanks
@JohnRennie do you have the other John blocked
user116211
@DavidZ ohh.
@0celo7 you might say that but I couldn't possibly comment :-)
16:36
@JohnDuffield So IYHO how does good old classical physics explain why a fridge magnet can produce as much force as planet earth? (quote by CERN)
@JohnRennie that makes more sense.
@0celo7 you don't want to...
@yuggib I got the fucking book, ofc I want to understand it.
@SpaceOtter ACM knows a million times more than me about string theory and QFT so attend to what he says. Though I flatter myself I'm good at explaining things in a simple way. ACM's point is that sometimes my explanations simplify a bit too much and verge on the misleading side.
Cos CERN suggests it's something to do with Gravitons jumping onto other branes. (or so it seems from there introduction) @JohnDuffield
16:40
@0celo7 how is an ordered couple defined set theoretically? $(a,b)=? $
No idea.
It's below (1.1)
...
I didn't buy the book, I got a copy from the library
So?
So what does QFT have over String Theory besides knowing how to choose a model? @JohnRennie
16:42
Clarification of "got the book"
@yuggib I will have to think more about this later.
@SpaceOtter QFT is an awesomely successful theory. It's so successful that few doubt that it's basically the right way to describe fundamental physics.
@JohnRennie That is incredibly vague
However the formulations we have for QFT, i.e. the way we use maths to do the calculations, seem hideously complicated.
this has led to many, many years of physicists wondering if we are really going about QFT the right way.
What string theoy offers is a new insight into the way QFT really works.
A lot of us feel that if we really understood string theory then we would understand QFT far better and hopefully it would all get a lot simpler.
So lots of us believe that it's a fake distinction between string theory and QFT and that when we understand them well enough we'll understand that they are really the same thing.
Or rather, QFT is one aspect of string theory.
Am I making sense so far?
OK, so I can't answer the question what does QFT have over String Theory because it's a misleading question.
16:48
If we got to that point would ppl be more accepting of the many dimensions and "living on a brane" aspects?
QFT is obviously more useful for day to day calculations e.g. calculating what happens at the LHC.
Yes it is
How do they observe those collisions anyway?
@SpaceOtter that was a quick change of subject!
If we got to that point would ppl be more accepting of the many dimensions and "living on a brane" aspects?
XD sooooo many questions
16:53
@yuggib sorry, $\{\{a\},\{a,b\}\}$ is too much for me
what does that even mean
@SpaceOtter : it's rather long-winded to explain that I'm afraid. I have to explain gravity, and how a magnet works and contrast the two. But to explain gravity I have to explain time then the speed of light. And to explain how a magnet works I have to explain the photon then pair production and the electron, then the Lorentz force. It isn't something I can tell you just like that.
Snaps fingers.
17:08
@yuggib How hard is it to establish the strong maximum principle for a uniformly elliptic operator?
@0celo7 : it's because when it comes to gravity and electromagnetism, I'm the expert now.
@JohnDuffield Haha
Not in a million years
@SpaceOtter : don't think that CERN suggest that. String theorists suggest that.
@0celo7 : it's true. JR knows it, and you know it. But there again, you're just the guy who thinks Einstein's a crackpot. So maybe you don't.
@JohnDuffield I don't know why you keep linking that
Einstein WAS totally a crackpot.
There's no secret there.
@0celo7 it's a set, that contains two elements (that accidentally are themselves sets)
17:19
@yuggib I do not understand the difference between $a$ and $\{a\}$
it's a subset of the power set of $A\cup B$ (where $a\in A$ and $b\in B$)
@0celo7 $a$ is an element of a set (of which you don't a priori know the "internal structure": it may be just an element or another set), while $\{a\}$ is a set with one element $a$
@0celo7 dnot maek funb of alfreb einstime
@Obliv why would I make fun of him when your face is a thing
(would link that picture that got @slereah flagged but I don't feel like getting timed out)
wow r00d
hi everybody
I don't have any questions at the moment actually :D
@JohnDuffield are you a mathematical physicist?
17:30
@Obliv I'm almost sure it wasn't the picture. There's no "trigger content" that automatically leads to kicking or suspending people.
@davidZ once you get a certain amount of flags, you get an automatic suspension don't you? Enough people flagged the picture for that to happen I think
For 30 minutes, yeah, but that's barely anything. Anyway, the point is that just because the picture was flagged once doesn't mean it will get flagged every time it gets posted. That's not how we work.
@Obliv you've got me curious to see the picture now. When was it posted? I'll go back and have a look.
Was deleted I think. I'll just re-link it I have to go to class so if I get suspended then I don't really care
Oh that one. That was ages ago and yes I saw that.
17:37
@Obliv it's not cause for suspension, it's just fairly pointless
It didn't strike me as especially offensive. Childish, but not offensive.
@JohnDuffield Maybe I should ask it as a question?
Not that you really need the rep
@JohnRennie Is that on topic?
@SpaceOtter is what on topic?
"Why is it a small fridge magnet produces more force than planet earths gravity.
17:43
@JohnRennie Sam got 30 minutes for it.
It has bad words in it.
@0celo7 true ...
The truth is that no-one knows why gravity is so weak.
nvm then
There are no experimentally tested theories that explain it, and even within string/M theory it's somewhat speculative.
17:46
@SpaceOtter that seems unnecessary
This is the pop sci effect again - journalists have an unfortunate tendency to describe speculative theories as if they were established fact.
Anyway, time for less physics and more cold beer, armchair and a good book.
ooh that sounds fantastic
and I don't even drink beer
Tfw in a topology lecture but you wanna do geometery
@DavidZ I'm reading a book called The Dumb House by John Burnside. It's won lot of awards, but it's written in the first person from the point of view of a psychopath and it's pretty unsettling.
It's weirdly fascinating to see into the worldview of a psychopath, but it's not a pretty view.
OK maybe less fantastic. Unsettling is not what I need at the moment. Still, good in principle.
17:55
A classic with point-of-view of a psychopath is, IMO, Dostoevsky's Notes from The Underground.
18:09
@DavidZ now I have an idea how meateaters feel when I say I'm vegetarian
Wonder what's wrong with you?
may I ask a question?
@2physics go
18:25
ok
"we do not have a description of gravity that is consistent with relativity". what is it referring to?
eh?
what eh?
I always thought General Relativity was our best theory about gravity
so I don't understand the statement :|
@2physics what
They mean quantum mechanics.
that would make sense
18:28
nope
Then you're reading garbage.
Robert L. Jaffe (born May 23, 1946)[1] is an American physicist and the Jane and Otto Morningstar Professor of Physics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He was formerly director of the MIT Center for Theoretical Physics.
if he writes "garbagical" notes often then yup you are right
lol
is it an online document?
MIT Quantum Theory Notes
Supplementary Notes for MIT’s Quantum
Theory Sequence
c

R. L. Jaffe 1992-2006
February 8, 2007
yeah
Post a picture of the offending section.
Also include context.
18:32
or a link
It's a garbage quote as you stated it.
Embarrassingly incorrect. Jump off a building incorrect.
AHA
"relativity AND quantum mechanics"
I know the reason for QM
but don't know what it means about relativity
no no ... the thing is "we do not have a description consistent with BOTH relativity and quantum mechanics AT THE SAME TIME"
18:37
@2physics I see. YOU should jump off a building.
Slandering Dr. Jaffar's name like that...
there is a reason that he didn't use the word "both"
yep, he thought it would be unnecessary and could easily be left out
there is also a reason he did not use or
at least that is my thought on this
@2physics No.
Clearly Gravity is reconcilable with relativity, so why are you making a fuss?
you mean gravity has no problem with relativity?
I guess I'm not qualified to answer that.. but surely there are some issues
@JohnRennie thank you for posting that arxiv paper, it is an interesting read
18:43
Not a physicst, but I do math. I think you're misparsing the statement too.
I'd parse it as "we do not have a description of gravity consistent both with relativity and quantum mechanics"
misparsing?
Misinterpreting. Misreading.
@BalarkaSen You do math? Hah! You don't even know what a topological set is :P
Topological set is not a thing.
Topological space is. A subspace of a topological space is.
@BalarkaSen Google it
18:46
@Sanya I haven't read it yet, but I love John Baez's writing. His This week in mathematics blog was always a must read. I think he's very good at explaining things in an accessible way.
Link me. If it's used anywhere, it's nonstandard terminology.
That's the sort of writing style I aspire to :-)
Why has this been so heavily downvoted?
-4
Q: How do we consider a system to be an entangled system?

vijayachakkaravarthi.pCase I: Consider one atom having two electrons they have clockwise and anticlockwise spins. Case II: Consider two atoms they have single electrons ,these electrons having clockwise and anticlockwise spins now my question is, which case can be considered as a entangled system.

Perceived lack of effort?
@BalarkaSen I came up with it somehow!
Go back in time for a reference
@JohnRennie I have not read it all either obviously, but you're right that the writing style is very pleasant and it starts very intruiging
@0celo7 Do you know what a topological rumpelstiltskin is?
18:50
@BalarkaSen Of course.
OK? What is it?
@JohnRennie maybe because it is not nice to read too - even though I personally wouldn't downvote a quite reasonable question just because of that; enough worse stuff flying around after all
@BalarkaSen Look in Hatcher, I'm not going to spell it out for you.
It seems a fair question. In a sense the two electrons in a helium atom are entangled i.e. you can't describe the total wavefunction as separable into two one electron wavefunctions.
Sorry, that only shows you know nothing of Riemannian geometry. It's a synonym for a Riemannian manifold.
Hatcher does not do Riemannian geometry.
18:53
I knew I didn't like that old hippie.
@JohnRennie if gravity has no problems with Relativity?
Give it a rest.
Even @BalarkaSen knows that.
@BalarkaSen I will edit the PDF if it makes you happy.
I don't know where I got that term from
maybe it can't explain every thing but I want to know if it results in any contradictions?
No.
or if it gives some tesults that are thought to be wrong probably
18:58
@BalarkaSen That's not the worst offense in that document btw.
Believable.
@BalarkaSen I say that phase space is a Riemannian manifold.
I also say that Stokes theorem only works on Riemannian manifolds.
@0celo7 can I throw the doc away off the building instead of jumping off myself
No. You're at acid swallowing now.
Get on it.
@BalarkaSen There's probably other stuff in there
19:01
ok I'll do it but with a parachute...
:D
@2physics I'm sure the parachute will save you from HF
Speaking of, how did your encounter with HF go?
Didn't have one, and I hope I never do. I'm working with U, and you need the full array of trainings to get into the rad lab.
of course, cuz a parachute is made of plastic threads :D
@0celo7 U as in Uranium?
19:03
Yeah
jumping off the building or HF is okay; I'm afraid of swallowing the parachute..
can I jump into a HF pool of 0.0000000000000001 mg/mol instead?(a pool filled with 10^-n gr/mol HF)
lol
@0celo7 I have no idea what are the potential dangers of working with U.
Maybe mostly long-term, if not used appropriate protection against radiation?
@BalarkaSen Yes. Also the usual dangers of working with heavy metals.
As in, dropping them on your feet?
Among other things.
@2physics no.
Drink 5mL 50% from a Pt crucible.
19:11
You'll be fine as long as you don't eat U then.
don't eat you?
he is a vegetarian
@0celo7 you taste it first for sure.. :D
@BalarkaSen Pretty much.
@BalarkaSen Other danger of U besides radioactivity: compounds and salts of U and other tranuranic metals are particularly toxic. Thus you want to avoid any exposure to them possible. Perhaps wearing a hazmat and work in a glove box is a good idea
@DavidZ @dmckee I'm getting followed around the site, getting targeted downvotes and completely unrelated comments on my answers. Does this break any rule?
This seriously saps my motivation to answer anything at all.
@Secret Ah.
19:26
@knzhou I can look into the voting issue, though real cases of targeted voting usually get reverse in circa 24 hours or so.
Toxic as in, what happens if you are exposed to them?
As long as you don't eat them, I mean.
For a few comments just flag them normally. For many write a custom flag detailing the situation (including the user or users posting them).
@BalarkaSen Exploding penis syndrome.
Not deadly, which is the worst feature.
@0celo7 that affects only people that are not able to do Jech's problems
@yuggib Pls, I need to know about maximum principles
Should I get Hörmander
19:29
@0celo7 It's been a long long time since I last saw an elliptic operator
@0celo7 you should yes, but not necessarily for elliptic operators
Is Evans or Taylor better?
probably evans for elliptic operators
there are many entries on "maximum principle" on evans, including the ones you're looking for
Ok.
Hörmander is, so to say, less accessible...
Petersen has some stuff on the maximum principle, and Chow Lu and Ni do too. But maybe Evans is more accessible before I read Li.
Attempt to read Li
But I got a good deal on it so it's coming
19:34
@knzhou I just see a trickle of negative votes which probably won't trip any automatic system, and they seem to be coming on days when you are getting rep-capped anyway so they don't affect your total rep gain.
Though I recognize that they can be annoying. Been there. Done that.
@dmckee wait, can mods see who votes?
Or just when it triggers a thing?
@0celo7 No. We have access to tools that alert us about certain automatically detected patterns.
Ok
@yuggib I think AMS is still having a book sale
should I get Evans? Is is recommended? I'll need it for PDE next year anyway
it is considered a standard book for PDEs
if it's on discount, maybe it is a good idea
Amazon reviews are weird
People saying Lee is hard to read and one should start with Spivak?
19:41
@0celo7 funny
What a strange comment
@yuggib funny? have you read Spivak?
At a glance Lee seems a nice, smooth read. But it's too easy a read is my issue with it.
@BalarkaSen What does that even mean?
Not enough hard exercises or illuminating notes. Seems to focus on the gritty details too much than leaving it to the reader. Doesn't tell me the big picture of things in general.
Contrary to Guillemin-Pollack.
@BalarkaSen Lee is one of my favorite books because he does concentrate on the gritty details.
19:43
I am aware.
You're right, many exercises in GP are elaborate detail-chasing.
@BalarkaSen What big picture are you looking for?
@0celo7 I didn't say that. Not sure what you're agreeing with.
@BalarkaSen GP leave a lot of details to the reader in the form of exercises.
Oh.
Right.
Speaking of, should get some work done. Mike has a new exercise for me.
Good luck.
19:46
Also someone sent an algebraic geometry problem I didn't really think about, but I think it's out of my league.
@BalarkaSen I'll think of a geometry book you'd like.
The other Lee I sent you is also pretty detailed.
Spivak is too.
Unfortunately for you, many geometry books tend to be 600 page beasts.
:(
Well, geometry is not my thing.
Not that I studied it...
@BalarkaSen I've got a "slim" 500 page one in my bag right now.
Petersen.
It's not an intro book.
19:49
Hm. I have heard of Gallot-Hullin-Lafontaine. Have you read it?
Yes, for some reason I decided not to read it.
Did Ted recommend it?
No, a geometric analyst (?) I met a couple months back did.
@BalarkaSen I'll take another look at it.
Ted would tell me to start with differential geometry of curves and surfaces though.
I think do Carmo or Lee's Riemannian geometry would be good.
@BalarkaSen Yeah...I don't find that stuff particularly interesting.
I don't think you would either.
19:51
shrug
do Carmo and Lee are very to the point.
>300 pages.
do Carmo covers a lot more.
@BalarkaSen There's always Kolar et al. if you like a little category theory.
Have heard of (and been recommended) do Carmo and Lee both. I'll decide when I would study differential geometry.
@0celo7 Oh, Janos Kolar?
It's not meant as an intro by any measure but given GP you have the background.
@BalarkaSen Yeah, althought it's not "geometry"
It's the study of natural transformations in the Smooth category.
hey, this guy is Ivan Kolar, not Janos Kollar (I misspelled).
Kolar, Michor, and Slovak.
19:55
I was surprised, as the latter is an algebraic geometer.
One day I hope to fully read it.
After chapter 3 it gets very, very abstract.
And just complicated.
Jet stuff
Yeah
And after chapter 4 it goes into stuff I've never heard of before.
Bundle functors, gauge natural functors.
Lie derivatives of functors
yikes
Alright, should really work now. G'night.
Night.
vzn
vzn
20:33
some questions/ dialog showing up in here on GR+QM one of the big/ open/ unsolved frontiers of physics. not sure of great/ best refs on this but these two turned up recently for me & cover history/ recent developments
20:44
Does anybody here have an opinion on José & Saletan for a graduate mechanics text
As contrasted mostly with Goldstein
Never heard of it.
professor mentioned it as a more modern version of Goldstein
I'll probably just pick up Arnol'd
@GPhys The standard way of spelling his name is without the apostrophe.
o (I was just copying from my syllabus)
@GPhys It's the way his name is spelled on the book...
20:50
I wonder why it is different on my class syllabus
Dunno. I was reading the book yesterday and it's on my desk.
Maybe the first edition has it spelled differently?
Interesting
The cover on Amazon shows it without it, but the author listed on the site shows it with it: amazon.com/gp/product/1441930876
It's a Russian name, so there's bound to be some translation differences.
The LoC data has it without it.
I am not privy to Russian transliteration

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