@DanielSank Dude I knew Anna would conspire against me

I had a fantastic drink the other day:

I recently mixed drinks again for the first time in a long time... Years!

I shall have my revenge one day

@ACuriousMind Ever tried the Moscow Mule?

Soda water, lemon juice, a little bit of sugar (not much!) slices of strawberry, and gin.

I mixed vodka with my Maß of Helles

It was excellent.

Terrible, but great :P

@DanielSank That sounds like it'll lead them straight into the pussywagon

@BernardMeurer Not a big fan of ginger

@BernardMeurer o.o

@ACuriousMind Ah, I see

Wut?

(as a foodstuff, that is. Other gingers are fine)

@ACuriousMind Oh god

@ACuriousMind That's what I thought!

You're one of those Germans

lol

God damnit

This chat is amazing tonight

@Danu huh?

You guys need to learn to fucking appreciate ginger

I like ginger with sushi

I like ginger

I'm fairly sure it's my most-used ingredient overall

More than salt?

Yeah

@BernardMeurer And you didn't even tell us about your date.

For which I am disappointed.

@DanielSank Sounds nice, I've only got the soda water and sugar, though :D

@0celo7 I use soy sauce as a substitute a lot

@ACuriousMind Acquire lemons.

@DanielSank What else is there to say?

Gin should be easy, no?

@Danu Interesting.

@DanielSank Yeah, I've got the gin

@ACuriousMind Gin + Soda + Sugar

Lemons are going to be hard to come by at 3am, though :D

@ACuriousMind Hahaha, that was so obvious it wasn't worth mentioning?

It's basically a soda

lol

@BernardMeurer I just noticed do Carmo defines the Riemann tensor with an extra minus while trying to solve an exercise.

Not good

Chat was excellent tonight

I'm going to bed now

@Danu See ya man! Goodnight!

Bye

@DanielSank Well, I did already mention I've got gin:

@Danu g'night

Bye guyz

@ACuriousMind Grow a pair and drink Gin with pepper for god's sake

@BernardMeurer Bob likes Bloody Mary made with Gin and lots of pepper.

Bloody Mary is disgusting

Whoever came up with Tomato Juice shouldn't have lived

WHAT

@BernardMeurer Simmer down there, tiger.

@DanielSank I had to take tomato juice as a kid

I have been bruised and traumatized

Hey there

@BernardMeurer Give me $10 right now and I'll send Shankar

@BernardMeurer By tomatoes?

@Ulthran Hi!

@ACuriousMind No, by the tomato man

@0celo7 Wait till I get to Lisbon

@0celo7 Worst superhero name ever

@ACuriousMind Yes. Heavily

@BernardMeurer ok too late

I'm ordering a book right now

textbook for a class, don't worry

@BernardMeurer Although maybe I should order a sheaf book

@Ulthran Well, it tells you that light rays take the path of least time. What is troubling you about it?

Really I don't get how the principle isn't intuitive, knowing that light will travel in a straight line.

@ACuriousMind They actually take the path of longer time, but they're virtual shennanigans in a einstein-universe which gets hyper-foobar to our reality as the path of least time. It's right. Einstein said so.

^Ignore this

@BernardMeurer I want to teach you some math

@0celo7 Let me get to Lisbon

@Ulthran Ah, if you're only in one medium, there's really nothing to it, just straight lines as you say. Its importance arises when you want to know the light path between two points in different media

I'm super out of time right now :(

As I think about it some more I'm starting to see the complications...

I just keep getting it, then going on to something else, and when I come back to it, it doesn't make sense again. :P

@BernardMeurer Well, being Don Juan is a full-time job, eh?

You know you're in trouble when both Kobayashi and Milnor are on the desk...

@ACuriousMind She goes back to Wiesbaden tomorrow

I'm actually not so happy about that

@BernardMeurer This is her:

Yes

I knew it

That video is so cringy omg

One of Bob's wife's favorite songs

@BernardMeurer :(

What's the TeX for a sideways $\bot$?

$|-$

@ACuriousMind Sucks

@0celo7 \dashv or \vdash.

@BernardMeurer you'll live :)

@ACuriousMind Lol I know that

Just shows I need an AI girlfriend

If only we knew an AI

oh dear

@BernardMeurer Well, I'm bad at comforting people, so I settle for making them laugh :P

@ACuriousMind Is a desire to follow the book and not use outside knowledge/different (easier) proof methods abnormal?

@ACuriousMind You're not fat enough to be comforting

???

@0celo7 Given that I can count the number of textbooks I've read on one hand, I really don't know

On one hard?

@BernardMeurer Um, what?

Took me about 5 times to figure out what that meant lol

lol

Oh god, just spent 20 minutes trying to figure out why the two equations are different, didn't stop to check that the equations are different

@ACuriousMind So what did you do re spectral sequences

@PhysicsGuy I'm taking a break from Ricci flow

I should read Petersen's geometry book first, especially the analytic parts

@Ocelo7 Okay, what are you gonna do now ?

Currently reading about Euler classes

And I'm gonna read Petersen

That was related to your problem, wasn't it ?

What do you mean

Euler-classes. I think I remember that we talked about it once related to Ricci-flow

No, it doesn't

I know, but we talked about it.

It had something to do with a definition which was important for Ricci-Flow

Or sth like that

$$\psi=\sum_{i=0}^n(-1)^i(D''K)^i\alpha_i+(-1)^{n+1}K(D''K)^n(-\pi^*\epsilon)$$

Bott and Tu is getting crazy

I'm actually reading about topological quantum field theories.

@PhysicsGuy Do you know, why should they be so complex?

Do cosmologists ever use cosmological decades?

@BernardMeurer >:(

Have you learned nothing from me?

@DanielSank I've learned what a tensor is from you :p

@BernardMeurer Uh huh, and where did you get your smart-ass skills?

@DanielSank Not sure which skills those are hahaha

Note: (smart-ass) skills != smart (ass skills)

Hmmmmm

So wait

what are smart-ass skills?

How to sound smug?

^ yes

Ah, indeed, I have learned a great deal of that from you :D

@BernardMeurer what are you doing

@0celo7 Conquering the world

sounds reasonable

Ah, so that's what I'm doing wrong

?

I'm trying to think of something quick I can teach you

I dunno

I gotta sleep

See ya

bye

Howdy

"Lefschetz was a purely intuitive mathematician. It was said of him that he had never given a completely correct proof, but had never made a wrong guess either. The diplomatic expression "open reasoning" was invented to justify his always deficient proofs. His lectures came close to incoherence.

In a course on Riemann surfaces, he started with a string of statements in rapid succession, without writing on the blackboard: "Well, a Riemann surface is a certain kind of Hausdorff space. You know what a Hausdorff space is, don't you? It is also compact, o.k? I guess it is also a manifold. Surely you know what a manifold is. Now let me tell you one nontrivial theorem: the Riemann-Roch theorem."

goes to read every one of his books

sounds like a crank to me

@DanielSank Hello?

@JohnRennie I'm up too late

Messing with compact vertical Czechoslovakian cohomology.

I'm up too early :-)

Trying to work out why a backup didn't run.

Looks like it got lively in the chat last night ...

The equation $$H^*_{cv}(E)=H_D^*=\bigoplus_{p+q=*}H^p(\mathfrak U,\mathscr H^q_{cv})=H^{*-n}(\mathfrak U,\mathscr H^n_{cv})$$ is neat looking

Oh, just figured it out

Turns out $p+n=k$ implies $p=k-n$. Neat.

Night

Night. See you tomorrow/later today.

It is feasible for me to learn programming and physics at the same time?

to be more specific: learning programming by expressing physics (simulation), that I already know, in the language of programming (Python)?

I'm not sure that learning programming and learning physics are connected.

It's true that if you're good at physics you're probably good at programming, but I know several good programmers who know absolutely nothing about physics.

But a good way to learn programming is to have an interesting project to do, so if you want to write a simulation of some physical system that you understand I'd say go for it.

However I think writing well structured programs is a skill in itself. I've seen lots of code written by very skilled physicists that is so poorly structured it's a support nightmare.

ha XD

thank you so much for very helpful suggestions

Modularisation does help on the structure, as well a bit of knowledge on the language the end user you are expecting to import to

One advice in programming is try not to use too many global variables, it can make the troubleshoot hard to do

thanks, I will keep that in mind ;)

I have been dreaming a lot about chemistry lately, I guess that means my phD application date is near

haha best wishes to you @Secret

@ACuriousMind : it is not an insult to point out that despite what some say, virtual particles only exist in the mathematics of the model, that vacuum fluctuations are real, and that the two things are not the same. The Coulomb force is not the Casimir effect.

@CuriousOne I figured out my Fourier transform issue.

It's a bit subtle, and I suppose if you turn your head sideways and squint you could say it were an issue of window functions.

@JohnDuffield But... that's not what you said.

Stop moving the goalposts.

Seriously John, listen to me: you do this all the f------ time and everyone around here is completely sick of it.

They're so sick of it that folks are questioning whether or not to abandon the chat room forever in favor of some moderated room where you can be voted out by popular demand. I hate that idea, and argued my reasons for not liking it above (with @Danu).

You made a personally directed attack.

Here's what you actually wrote:

> IMHO she doesn't understand GR or electromagnetism, she doesn't know the difference between virtual particles and vacuum fluctuations, she doesn't know the difference between curved space and curved spacetime, and she censors any comments that might suggest she is not God's gift to physics

I actually think that comment is 100% fine and not against site rules.

However, for you to come back and say:

@DanielSank : it's not an attack to say somebody doesn't know the difference between x and y when the evidence is there for all to see.

> it is not an insult to point out that despite what some people say, virtual particles only exist...

is completely disingenuous. that is NOT WHAT YOU SAID.

@JohnDuffield You're doing it again.

For the love of human sanity STOP IT.

That is NOT WHAT YOU SAID.

Are you daft, trying to be annoying, or what?

I copy/pasted what you actually said.

@ACuriousMind : what I add to the room is education.

@JohnDuffield are you going to acknowledge anything I'm saying or should I go back to ignoring you?

@DanielSank: please don't argue with Duffield. No matter what you say he will simply ignore you and parrot his usual prejudices. By arguing with Duffield you just make this chat room a worse place for eveyone else.

@JohnRennie Yeah that's why I normally have him on ignore.

For the love of God just put him on ignore like the rest of us do.

@JohnRennie LOL

You must have missed the discussion with @Danu and @ACuriousMind earlier where they argued that the ignore feature isn't useful or good enough or some such thing.

This is the point Danu was making. One person can make the chat room a poisonous place for everyone else - if you allow them to.

I do normally have him on ignore, but every now and then I get the urge to see if he's interested in listening to reason.

And it was quiet so I thought I'd give it a shot.

okey dokey, back to ignoring :D

@DanielSank I read the discussion with some care. The point is that people fall into the trap of trying reasonable debate with Duffield, then they get angry, and because we see their posts that poisons the atmosphere.

You know, @JohnRennie, I once actually got @CuriousOne to admit I was right about something.

@JohnRennie You're right.

Apologies, oh calm one.

@DanielSank : I am precise. Virtual particles are not vacuum fluctuations. If you find that somehow poisonous and unreasonable and something you'd like to ignore or get angry about, that's your choice.

Maybe the victory with @CuriousOne gave me a fool's hope with JD.

They are rather similar.

Flagged? Why?

Remember the film "War Games"? - The only way to win the game is not to play

Probably best if we just put this whole discussion to bed.

Or misquotes to that effect :-)

Wait a second, why is that flagged? What am I missing?

(which is moderatorese for "stop now")

@DavidZ k

@DavidZ How are we supposed to discuss issues like this, anyway?

meta?

That seems tricksy.

@DanielSank Don't. Just don't. It isn't worth it.

Is it ok if we leave names out of it?

@JohnRennie I disagree.

It's less bad if you leave names out of it. Discussing what we'd like the cultural norms of the chat room to be, in general, is fine.

@Danu came by earlier talking about starting up a special chat room with "vote people we don't like out" capabilities.

@DanielSank Leaving names out is pointless since we all know who you mean.

If you're at a party and someone is being annoying you either avoid them or leave.

That's true. When I say "leave names out of it" I mean not only names, but also allusions to specific people.

@JohnRennie Ok and what happens when all your friends are talking about leaving and never coming back?

@DavidZ ok

If we adhere to that strictly are we allowed to talk?

It's not like anyone is going to get suspended just for mentioning a name a few times.

This is more of general advice for creating a pleasant environment in the chat, not advice on how to avoid getting disciplined by the mods.

::nods::

@DanielSank As soon as Duffield left it turned into a lively and interesting conversation. Even Danu, that prophet of doom, agreed that was the case. If you let one person spoil things for everyone it's your problem not theirs.

@JohnRennie Yes yes I know that. That's why I kept saying "just use the ignore button"

Anyway, to post what I was about to post when this all started...

You make this room a great place to be by having interesting conversations with interesting people. As long as we keep making the effort to do that things will be fine.

@DavidZ the suspense ... :-)

@ACuriousMind cc @JohnDuffield after some moderator discussion here's where we stand: it's not inherently inappropriate to say such things here - in other words, there's no general rule against claiming that someone doesn't understand a topic or doesn't know a certain something, regardless of that person's status in the physics community. (cont.)

^ I agree with this, FWIW

@DanielSank: Congrats! I don't envy you. Those things can be subtle, no doubt. If you don't mind sharing... can't respond, right now, though... busy with client work.

(cont.) However, it is a disparaging remark, and it can be considered a contribution to a larger pattern of behavior which brings down the environment of the chat. That is a problem. So one should not make such statements lightly, i.e. not without it being part of a constructive argument.

@DavidZ Is this just advice on how to be a good conversationalist or are you indicating grounds for moderation?

As always, our job as chat mods is to maintain a healthy environment in the chat. If someone is behaving in a way that disrupts that, we'll do what is needed to maintain the chat environment, including using mod tools (e.g. suspensions) as necessary.

Ok here's a question

Does a pattern of bad behavior by multiple users {A, B, C}, when in contact with another user {D}, count as "behaving in a way that disrupts the chat" for anyone involved?

That's a general statement, but @JohnDuffield you can also take it as an indicator that you're on "thin ice" so to speak - given the way people have been reacting to your behavior, as @DanielSank did above. This is the point at which you should examine how you contribute to this chat room and make adjustments as needed to avoid antagonizing people.

Everyone involved?

Well that answers it.

Science anything interesting lately, @DavidZ, @JohnRennie?

ohai guys

@Danu!

<3

Lively discussions haha

@DanielSank generally speaking, for everyone - but when one person is always/most frequently involved, we definitely look at that person first.

@DavidZ Yeah ok.

I see you experienced the failure of consistent ignoring ^^

I'm sorry I did that and I'll try not to again.

@DanielSank The proton radius puzzle looks interesting

@DanielSank sweet ;-)

@Danu Yeah, once every six months I boil over.

@DavidZ o_O

@DavidZ is there new stuff on the proton radius?

oh whoops double post

SUSPENDED!

lolololol

sorry

::hides::

@DavidZ The muonic hydrogen - hydrogen mismatch has been known for a while hasn't it?

@Danu ever figure out what that green bit of plastic you ate was?

@JohnRennie There was the recent muonic deuterium measurement.

@DanielSank I don't get it

@DanielSank YES!

!

SE never fails

orly?

Oooooooooooooooooooooohh

I haven't read the details but I think the gist is that they put a muon in orbit around a deuterium nucleus, used it to measure the proton radius, and found the same result as with muonic hydrogen

@Danu upvoted

Or I should just read and see if that's right

Actually I should reset my internet connection first. The VPN is b0rked and I'm not quite sure how I'm still connected to chat....

@DavidZ quantum entanglement, duh.

@DanielSank I'm so happy someone actually found what it was!

yeah that's really satisfying.