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15:00
@DavidZ that's why you can't say $b$ has an inverse $g$ that maps $b$ to an identity element because the inverse has multiple elements that it can map $b$ to. they have to be unique yea.
@JohnRennie This seems to agree with what I'm getting from my discrete approximations, so it makes a good check, thanks.
@Obliv Yeah, but off the top of my head you could generalize this to multiple identity elements in a few ways, like given any $b$ there might be a $g_1$ that maps it to one identity element, $I_1$, and another $g_2$ that maps it to another identity element $I_2$. Or it could be that given any $b$, there is a $g$ that maps $b$ to one element of a set $\{I_1,\ldots,I_n\}$. Either of these is a potential generalization of the normal definition of an identity.
Presumably if you had that, you wouldn't have a group, though.
@DavidZ But if it's an identity wouldn't In Im have to be equal to both In and Im at the same time? Identities are unique, no?
Identities are unique in groups
Or, given the way an identity is defined in group theory, it is unique
OK, how are they being defined here?
15:06
I'm just speculating that you could take some other definition and call it an "identity" for something other than a group
Sure
@Jiminion They are separate, though string theory necessarily involves supersymmetry
Like a magma or something
OK, I guess I'd ask what the "identity" part meant. Usually means it maps things to themselves.
$a + I = a$
15:07
@Slereah Yes, but with that definition, there can only be one identity.
$a + a^{-1} = I$
Well, not just with that
@Slereah OK, but your 2nd definition doesn't given I any special properties.
You could conceive of a structure where you have $a+I = a$ and $a + J = a$
@ACuriousMind It seems if SUSY is kaput (LHC phase 1 didn't reveal anything) then so is String Theory. But are there a lot of people studying SUSY outside of string theorists?
@Slereah Yes, but then what would be I + J be?
15:08
Hm, true!
@Jiminion I don't know about "a lot", but supersymmetric QM and supersymmetric QFT are definitely studied in their own right
Depends if it's a left or right identity :p
@Slereah Identities are bi... directional.
Supersymmetric QM is studied a lot because it's a good way to get easy solutions
@ACuriousMind there are some non-susy string theories
15:09
@yuggib ...the 26D bosonic one?
@yuggib No, I'm just wondering how swift and stormy its closing is going to be
It would be interesting to have two one-sided identities. Not sure if you could construct an interesting consistent structure that way though.
not that I think these things are relevant
but I think the same of any string theory ;-P
\documentclass{beamer}
\begin{document}

\begin{frame}
\titlepage
\end{frame}

\end{document}
Oh, right, I don't know anything about heterotic strings :/
15:12
I am guessing there might be axioms in the mathematical structure that might force them to be equal (if you want your structure to be associative), unless some nice axioms have to be knocked out

I cannot do the calculation on top of my head within 10mins to test my guess, though
↑ Does anyone else find it miffing that that produces LaTeX warnings?
erotic strings?
@EmilioPisanty also if you add a \title{} command?
@Secret Actually, I think you'd need commutativity too.
@EmilioPisanty meh, not really. LaTeX is such a fragile system I've trained myself to ignore a lot of frivolous warnings.
15:14
@barrycarter You cannot have two different identities. If $l$ is the left-identity and $r$ is the right-identity, then $l = lr = r$ by their defining properties.
I'll be happy to settle for no errors
@ACuriousMind Told you so, @Slereah
@ACuriousMind you can have multiple left identities
@yuggib Oh, yes, provided you have no right one.
15:16
exactly
So anyway
No idea what Peskin means by $\sigma^2 \vec \sigma^* = - \vec \sigma\sigma^2$?
I can't seem to find a way in which it makes sense
anti commutativity?
Thank you all! :)
Well yes but isn't $\sigma^2$ just $4I$
@yuggib Yes, all the way through to a full presentation
15:18
Since $\sigma^0 = I$ and for the Pauli matrices, $\sigma^2 = I$
@DavidZ That's a terrible statement about a language.
@Slereah I was just making stuff up, sorry.
@EmilioPisanty T__T
@EmilioPisanty yep. True though.
@DavidZ Yeah, maybe. I regularly shoot for clean compiles
Generally get them, too.
15:19
all hail latex3
In LaTeX? I'm surprised
whenever it would be finished
@DavidZ ;-)
Personally, by the time I finish fixing the 500 errors that inevitably come up, I couldn't be bothered with the warnings
I'm mostly miffed that whoever wrote beamer (you know, the most prevalent, I mean the only, presentation class) couldn't be bothered to check that it compiled cleanly.
15:21
Wait, what warnings are you getting?
It's one thing for me as a user to allow warnings, but if the package comes mis-fitted into TeX, that doesn't say great things about the code environment.
All I see is a font substitution warning that happens with everything
@DavidZ Me, I shoot for no warnings at all from latex.
@DavidZ Yeah, those
Why would you need them?
Why does standard beamer call font sizes that are not in standard LaTeX?
It's not just beamer. Other classes do it too.
@DavidZ Maybe I've been working in revtex for too long
What other classes do it?
15:23
I don't know offhand, I'm just used to seeing those font warnings nearly every time I compile
Well, many times
@DavidZ Huh. If you get them again on a standard class I'd be interested.
hm... well, I think other classes do it anyway
I'll keep an eye out
@DavidZ hahahaha
In any case I can see the point: it stands to reason that beamer should specify the exact font sizes it wants, to the extent it's able to do so, and if those font sizes aren't currently available, the compiler can make appropriate substitutions. In the future, if the right font size does become available, then it's easy enough to just drop in and use.
I use an editor that does not show latex warnings when compiling
;-)
15:25
This is not my general attitude toward warnings in compiled computer code, but with LaTeX I think of it a little differently.
that is because the two of you compile too much code
come to the dark side and do a job where no compiling whatsoever is required ;-P
(apart from latex)
You say that like compiling is a bad thing
@DavidZ Yeah, it's this whole thing where TeX has like three font sizes, period, and everybody just pretends that it's not a problem, and that if you want something else then really it's your fault and actually LaTeX knows better than you
always
@DavidZ of course it is...I hated all the exams related to codes and programming
...and I didn't. Those were my favorite classes.
15:32
@yuggib Yeah, I once was an inch from failing an exam (and a flat zero, too) because I insisted on adding áccénts to the printouts, so one of them got plonked into a &A%-like combination on the lecturer's machine, sending my carefully-trimmed line one character over the fortran line length limit
fun times, I can tell you
:-D
I'm not sure I agree on your definition of fun
@EmilioPisanty lol
@yuggib Yeah, it's not a definition of fun that I use very often
Hey, I like my machine to use grammatically correct Spanish when it's talking to me.
it's a common problem for all neolatin speakers
and it gets much worse for people coming from any part of asia
15:47
On an only tenuously related note, apparently there are three Chinese words for Unicode
How many sumerian words for unicode are there
> Integrability in nonperturbative Matrix Models depends on understanding m-dimensional TQFTs deformed by four-quark operators, as realized in bulk currents.
Huh
@0celo7 snarXiv?
Welpers
Welparoony
Time to go home
@EmilioPisanty Yes
But it sounds very real
@ACuriousMind Ah.
That short exact sequence is an algebraic way of saying "a Killing field is determined globally by $X_p$ and $\nabla X_p$."
15:53
@EmilioPisanty shhh Not here! IT KNOWS!
@DavidZ they like to complicate things
@ACuriousMind Why is proving that some map $F:\mathcal X(M)\to something$ depends only on $X_p$ equivalent to proving $F(0)=0$?
@ACuriousMind For instance, the "standard" proof that $\nabla_X$ depends only on $X_p$ is because if $X_p=0$, then $\nabla_X|_p=0$.
@JohnRennie Hail! I'm not sure the invariance of the line interval was that helpful to me, sorry. I've instead taken a discrete approximation approach using relativistic addition and time dilation.
@0celo7 You keep asking me questions that are non-sensical because you don't give the right information. For instance, the map $F:\mathcal{X}(M)\to\mathbb{R}, X\mapsto \int_\gamma X$ for some curve $\gamma$ sends the zero vector field to 0, but certainly is not dependent on $X_p$ alone (assuming $X_p$ denotes the value of $X$ at a fixed point $p$).
15:59
@ACuriousMind If $F$ is $C^\infty$ linear, I think
@ACuriousMind More specifically:
This author claims that because $L_Xg=0$, ($X$ is a Killing field), the set of Killing fields is a vector space
this makes sense because $L_X$ is $\mathbb{R}$-linear in $X$.
The claim is that $X$ is uniquely determined by $X_p$ and $(\nabla X)_p$, for some $p\in M$.
But he says because the space of $X$s is a vector space, it suffices to show that $X_p=(\nabla X)_p=0$ implies $X\equiv 0$ on $M$.
What's $\nabla X$?
Hey guys, sorry, I know I've been here for a couple days with this and I still can't get a correct answer out of it. Here is the problem, onedrive.live.com/… and here is my calculation onedrive.live.com/… .
@ACuriousMind Covariant derivative of $X$. Setting $X_p=(\nabla X)_p=0$ is an abuse of notation.
I know my mental model is wrong, because there's another one there almost exactly like it that I also can't get right
@0celo7 Uh...don't you have to take the covariant derivative with respect to something? Or is that the 2-tensor with entries $\nabla_\mu X_\nu$?
16:08
@ACuriousMind The 2-tensor.
If you want, it's $(\nabla_YX)_p=0$ for all $Y\in\mathcal{X}(M)$.
@JoeStavitsky I have no idea what your problem is. I straightforwardly calculated the potential energy difference between the two points and converted that into the speed this has as kinetic energy and got one of the answers there.
@ACuriousMind, ok, potential difference, not potential, correct?
@0celo7 Okay, then this is the claim that $\mathcal{X}(M)\to\mathbb{R}^n\times\mathbb{R}^{n\times n}, X\mapsto (X_p,(\nabla X)_p)$ is injective.
@JoeStavitsky Potential energy difference. Maybe you are calculating the electric potential difference?
@0celo7: and if that map is injective, then that means a point in the target space determines an element of $\mathcal{X}(M)$ fully (if it determines one)
@JoeStavitsky All you have to do is derive the acceleration that the electron feels and multiply that through a distance of 6 cm. The acceleration would be the force the electron feels divided by its mass.
@JoeStavitsky That gets you $\frac{v^2}{2}$ though
@Obliv That doesn't work because the acceleration is not constant.
16:15
so integrate it
Energy conservation really is the simplest way to do this.
@ACuriousMind Aha, and for this to be injective is has no kernel?
energy conservation is just skipping the integration
@Obliv Well, but that's not "multiplying that through a distance"
Or...the other way around?
16:15
@0celo7 what?
@ACuriousMind Well I'm trying to figure out what's going on
A linear map is injective if and only if it has trivial kernel.
Yes, exactly
well if it's not constant obviously you change the distance to a $dx$
@ACuriousMind But isn't the map the other way around? We map the initial data to the global field $X$.
16:19
@0celo7 I don't know what you're doing. I'm not reading the things you're reading, I'm just working with what you are telling me!
And what you told me is the injectivity of that map
I'm not mapping initial data to anything :P
@ACuriousMind Ok, but in my sequence I have $\mathfrak{iso}_p\to\mathfrak{iso}$
What you described is the other way around
Yes, because that is what you described in
17 mins ago, by 0celo7
But he says because the space of $X$s is a vector space, it suffices to show that $X_p=(\nabla X)_p=0$ implies $X\equiv 0$ on $M$.
@ACuriousMind Why can't it be the injectivity of the map $(X_p,\nabla X_p)\mapsto X$?
The injectivity of the map of the initial data to a vector field would be: $X = 0$ implies $X_p = (\nabla X)_p = 0$
Which is rather obvious :P
Perhaps what you quoted there is meant to show the map is linear
Since part of being linear is mapping the 0 to 0
@ACuriousMind Agreed.
(Not agreeing with what you're saying overall, but I agree with that statement.)
@ACuriousMind Ok, there's obviously something conceptual I don't understand with tensors in general.
@ACuriousMind For instance, the tensor $\nabla_XT$ ($T$ some tensor field) depends, at a point $p$, on $X$ only through $X_p$.
Apparently this is equivalent to the fact that $\nabla_XT|_p=0$ if $X_p=0$.
I don't see why this is.
What I would do is expand $X$ in a chart, then it's clear $\nabla_XT|_p$ depends on the components of $X$ at $p$, not the derivatives or anything else.
(Use the $C^\infty$-linearity of the connection in $X$.)
16:34
Interesting, wolfram alpha reports eps_0 in farads/meter, just like ti-89 titanium
@0celo7 Well, suppose there were two fields $X,X'$ with $X_p = X'_p$ and $\nabla_{X'}T\neq \nabla_X T$ at $p$. This means $\nabla_{X'-X} T \neq 0$ at $p$, and $X'-X$ is a field with $(X'-X)_p = 0$. Contradiction.
@JoeStavitsky What's "interesting" about that, it's the correct unit?
@ACuriousMind, not how my book writes it
What does your book write? If the unit is not equivalent to farads per meter, your books is wrong.
(N*m^2)/Coul^2
@ACuriousMind Sorry, how do we know it doesn't depend on some other $X$ thing?
(That's not precise, I know.)
16:42
@0celo7 Hmmm? I just showed that assuming two vector fields with the same $X_p$ give different $\nabla_X T$ leads to a contradiction, hence having the same $X_p$ is sufficient for having the same $\nabla_X T$.
@JoeStavitsky Are you sure it's not Coulomb^2/(Nm^2)?
Because Farad are Coulomb^2/(Nm), and then the units match.
@ACuriousMind Ok, I don't understand why you can make the statement after "hence".
That's what my issue is.
@ACuriousMind, Nooo, both the book and the assignment use what I wrote
@JoeStavitsky the dimensions of \epsilon_0 are Q^2T^2M^{-1}L^{-3}, so any combination of units with these dimensions can be used. Farads per metre is the most common, but you could equivalently use C^2⋅N^{-1}m^{-2} or CV^{-1}m^{-1}
@0celo7 The proof there shows that, given $X_p = X'_p$, $\nabla_X T \neq \nabla_{X'} T $ leads to a contradiction. Hence, given $X_p=X'_p$, we must have $\nabla_X T = \nabla_{X'} T$. Can you make more explicit what you don't understand?
Or you could probably come with increasingly esoteric variants on these units with a bit of effort. They are all the same unit.
16:47
@ACuriousMind, ok, so I got U_1=(8.99*10^9*1.6^2*10^-19)/9.0*10^-3= 2.56*10^-7 J
@JoeStavitsky I am looking at your assignment right now and it doesn't say that
It gives Nm^2/C^2 as the unit of k = 1/(4 pi epsilon_0), which is correct.
@ACuriousMind, thats what I typed
not what you typed
10 mins ago, by Joe Stavitsky
(N*m^2)/Coul^2
Yes, but you said that that is the unit of eps_0! It's not, it's the unit of 1/eps_0!
16:51
@ACuriousMind o duuuh sorry
@ACuriousMind No, that rephrasing cleared it up.
but, do you agree with my result for U_1?
No idea, I haven't caclulated it.
When we say $g: f(x) \to x$ do we mean $g$ maps ALL of the domain $f(x)$ to a subset of its codomain $x$?
or can it mean a subset of its domain $f(x)$
Usually, functions map the entire domain, unless you are in some area where it is so common to encounter partial functions that it is never made explicit.
Also, who the hell writes $g: f(x)\to x$!?
16:58
:D
Small $x$ is usually an element, not a set, and $f(x)$ would likewise be just an element
(ofc, in standard ZFC, all elements are actually sets. Just to ward off nitpickers.)
that makes sense.
could a surjective function map an infinite set to a set of 1 element?
@Obliv What
Are you sure you didn't mean $g:f(x)\mapsto x$?
@Obliv Sure, why shouldn't it?
@Obliv Of course.
17:02
acm already mentioned the notation error @0celo7
Any constant function does that.
(If you take the codomain to be the constant.)
@Obliv Whether $f:X\to Y$ is surjective depends a lot on what $Y$ is.
$f:X\to f(X)$ is always surjective.
yeah I see what you mean
@ACuriousMind I've seen books not distinguish $\to$ and $\mapsto$.
is $x^2$ a strictly surjective function?
oh I guess not at x = 0
@Obliv No, what is $x^2=-1$?
17:09
1
er
And home
We've had this discussion before.
You know, rereading Peskin
i'm saying surjective
not injective
he really doesn't explain what C symmetry is
17:10
@Slereah Charge parity invariance
Well duh
okay for all of $y>0$ @0celo7
it is isn't it?
I mean a bit more in depth
You walnut
@Obliv For $y\ge 0$ it is.
It's never injective, except maybe at $0$, but that's trivial/a tautology/nonsense.
@Slereah Ok, $C:q\mapsto -q$.
Well see, the thing is
No
C symmetry is a Fancy Symmetry
That man is called VVV
It's a sign
17:17
Vladimir Vladimirovich Vladimirovska
the most russian name
does $A = [0,2]$ mean $A$ has less members than $B = [0,4]$?
I'm trying to make a domain where multiple members map to a codomain for a strictly surjective function.
An interval of R has always the same cardinality
okay
ty
Well, an interval with a non-zero measure
"Hence it follows that a Cartan subalgebra H should be commute with P"
Should be commute with P
I read that in my mind with a thick russian accent
17:26
okay for a surjective function $f(x) = x^2$ that maps $f: A \to B$ in the domain $A \subset \mathbb{Z}$ and the codomain $B \subset \mathbb{Z^{+}}$, how can you say a left inverse $g$ doesn't exist such that $g: B \to A$ and a composite function $g \circ f$ is the identity on $A$? Like given $A = \{-1,-2,0,1,2\}$ and $B = \{0,1,4\}$, shouldn't the image of $A$ under $f$ give $B$ and mapping that back to $A$ would work? $\sqrt{B}$ would give back a subset of $A$.
oh wait the subset of $A$ is not the identity of $A$.
I see now.
@ACuriousMind If you could summarize the study of physics to one word what would it be?
I can't.
thats 2 words man
What about
"Cake"
(I have cakes on the mind)
The cake is a lie
i wish valve would make portal 3 already :p
17:40
I'd say if you want to study physics don't agonize over the philosophy of studying physics and do it
portal 2 was too fun
I wish Valve would make anything, really
lol
why wouldn't you glance at the finish line before you start running @Slereah ? what if you're running towards a cliff without realizing. Or there were shortcuts along the way
Well if you are hoping for riches then don't study physics, I'd say
Do it because you love physics
"Explaining physics is more difficult than doing physics", he said for no particular reason.
17:57
Wait how does $C$ symmetry even make sense as just "switches particles and antiparticles"
Those notions aren't even well defined in an interacting theory
@Slereah the transform on the level of the fields doesn't need the notion of particles.
Well yes, but that's kind of my point
$C$ symmetry is poorly explained in Peskin
He just goes like $\hat C \hat a_p = \hat b_p$
Does chatjax just wear off over time? I thought it stayed on until the page was closed :o
Or something
@Obliv I have the same problem. I have to turn it on each time someone types something new. That may just be me/my browser.
18:02
I think mine just turned off after a couple hrs.
did you reload the page, or does your browser automatically reload pages after some time?
Mine shouldn't. Unless it's doing it secretly.
I think it just reloaded automagically
Opinion from the team? Is this question homework?
0
Q: Lepton and strangeness conservation

Janhave I got a mi-understanding here at all? The question states: I then see that on the first one that the strangeness isn't conserved, on the right, the strangeness is $+1$ and on the left the strangeness is $0$, then on the second one the lepton number on the left is $0$ then on the right it ...

5
Q: What happens to sound waves?

maqI apologize if this is a naive question, but I never really learned about this. I'm curious as to what happens to sound waves after they are "used"? For example, if I say something to you verbally, then a sound wave is transmitted and picked up by your ears, but what happens to the wave after tha...

this question leads me to ask: Are sound waves unique? I know you can theoretically reproduce every color in the light spectrum.
18:09
@JohnRennie Well...it's not really clear what the question is, I'd say. You seem to have hit the point that confused the asker, but from what's written in the question, it's not clear how they concluded that the lepton number is 0 on the r.h.s., and hence not clear what an answer has to address
They're mechanical waves so they depend on the medium and the particles that are interacting, right?
@ACuriousMind I thought it was on the homework side, which is why I commented instead of answering. I would vote to close except that, yes, I'm all out of close votes (again). But now I'm wondering if I should convert my comments to an answer.
If I release a piece of metal and it flies towards a magnet, the magnet has exerted a force over a distance, and thus done work. Does this mean the magnet gets weaker?
@Obliv are you referring to the fact we can mix red, green and blue light to make all colours on the spectrum?
yes
18:12
@JohnRennie If it just asked: "What is the lepton number of this process?", then it would be homework, I'd say. If it asked "Why is the lepton number of the $\mu^+$ -1?", it would be an okay-ish question. As it stands, it's just unclear to me.
@JohnRennie That's a lie! It only fools most human eyes, not actual color :P
@Obliv that's a quirk of the way the human eye works. You aren't actually making light of different colours you are just fooling the eye into thinking there is light of a particular colour present.
I have a feeling that the allignment of the magnet gets slightly weaker @barrycarter
That's my thinking as well, but wanted to make sure.
@JohnRennie And it doesn't work with everyone. There's a hideous new mutant human breed out there that has 4 cones.
7
Q: Conservation of Energy in a magnet

Yngve B-NilsenWhen a permanent magnet attracts some object, lets say a steel ball, energy is converted into for instance kinetic energy and heat when attraction happens, and they eventually collide. Does this imply that energy is drawn from the magnetic field and the magnet is depleted, making it weaker and we...

18:14
@JohnRennie Aren't you changing the frequency of the light by constructive interference, increasing the energy of the wave though?
@Obliv No
Soo they're separate light waves being masked in 1 perceived light wave?
I don't follow :X
@JohnRennie OK, does that mean when a magnet attracts something, the magnet itself must also move?
@barrycarter the centre of mass of the system is conserved. Assuming the magnet is bolted to the Earth then yes it will move but not by very much (the Earth being quite heavy).
WAT
18:18
@JohnRennie OK, I didn't really understand that answer. After the magnet and the object move (meaning work has been done), is the magnet weaker?
@barrycarter The magnet + (originally unmagnetised) steel ball has a slightly weaker total magnetic field than the magnet alone.
@JohnRennie OK, so it's not until you move the magnet back to its original position (doing work on it) that field strength is restored?
The field of the magnet hasn't changed, and if you pull the steel ball away (putting work in) the field will return to it's original strength
Hmmm, the specter of free energy hangs over this question.
Incidentally the drinking session last night went on longer than expected, which is why it took me until mid afternoon to make an appearance hereabouts :-)
18:23
@JohnRennie So if I had a strong magnet and a jillion pieces of metal, I could force the magnet to do work on all of them? Or am I missing something?
With every new bit of metal you add the field gets weaker and the work you can extract gets less.
Ah, that's the key I needed.
So, even though the magnet doesn't get weaker, the total field (magnet + previous pieces of metal) does?
@JohnRennie You are awesome in both a relative and magnetic way.
Actually I always hated electrodynamics at school and college
It seemed to be just a way for the lecturers to think up pointless and esoteric configurations of charges and currents for us to solve.
I realise it's kind of important, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
18:27
However, you persevered, giving it that old British "can do" spirit, and are now a master of physics.
My mum is always impressed when we're watching University Challenge together and I can answer all the physics questions :-)
And if you can impress your mum (English: mom), then you have succeeded in life.
Any thoughts on:
http://math.stackexchange.com/q/1741160/82615
It appears to be a mathematics question of some sort.
18:51
very good thoughts @barrycarter I have to admit those were my immediate thoughts as well.
@JohnRennie It's a textbook exercise type of problem. So definitely homework under the old definition and I would want to be off-topic not withstanding that it is exactly the kind of question that students get an "Ah! Ha!" moment from when they are studying the conservation properties of the fundamental interactions.
@dmckee that's what I thought, which is why I didn't answer
@dmckee feel free to close it. I would, but I'm all out of close votes.
2
Perils of moderating physics.SE: running out of close votes.
But is it one we should add to @DavidZ's list to talk about for the future policy?

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