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21:08
@ManishEarth He was bewildered because gravitons are massless.
@0celo7 that's not certain yet
@ManishEarth Their existence is not certain.
In all theories in which they exist, they are massless.
right
@skullpetrol "hacker" just means "programmer" in this context
@ManishEarth I don't think the existence of gravitational waves implies the existence of gravitons.
right
it's unrelated
21:13
Unless there's some empirical evidence about gravity being a quantum field?
it was just a discussion that popped up there
nope
@ManishEarth Ok, well in string theory which is correct (maybe) the graviton is massless.
though if it was, the reason gravitons are massless would not be "because it's absurd"
because you have the same thing going on with gluons, for example
No, it's because of representation theory of SO(something) ;)
21:14
It's just that massive bosons lead to forces that fall off exponentially with distance, which gravity obviously doesn't.
@ACuriousMind Proof?
The mass might be reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally small.
Hi, everybody.
Then the Yukawa force would be almost pure inverse square.
@ACuriousMind yep
@0celo7 Do the calculation by which one derives the Coulomb potential from QED for a massive boson instead.
21:16
@0celo7 then the bound would probably be smaller than the neutrino bound we have
@ACuriousMind I know how the Yukawa force calculation works.
@0celo7 Well, that you have for all massless things: You can always technically only say that the mass is below our detection threshholds.
I'm saying that you can only bound the mass of the graviton using that.
@ACuriousMind Exactly.
But in theory the mass is mathematically zero.
So what's your point?
When have I ever had a coherent point?
I'm just saying things.
21:17
True dat^
@0celo7 I'm pretty sure you can get some symmetry to break and get its Goldstones eaten by the gravitons.
@ACuriousMind In string theory?
@0celo7 Nah, just thinking QFT here, no idea how SSB is supposed to work in string theory
::sigh:: I should have spend the time I spent on BBS reading topology instead. Now I know how bosonic string theory works (maybe) and just got confused after that.
Physicists can't explain group theory!
[title question unrelated to body question]

[insert generic misguided question vaguely related to LIGO announcement here]
[same question as the previous guy, but now in the title]

[question actually is about QCD, as understood through analogy]
21:25
@0celo7 The math of QFT works on all linear fields. That may not prove that there are gravitons, but it makes it easy enough to start writing equations that have them in. Up until the point you try to renormalize, I mean.
@dmckee Up until the point you try to get physical quantities out of the math, you mean?
Also, gravity is not linear.
@dmckee What do you mean by "linear field"?
My point was that gravitons are still fictional.
G waves are a classical phenomenon.
@ACuriousMind Hmmm .... good question. I was thinking that it supported linear waves. which is the expected behavior in the small amplitude limit, no?
@0celo7 And my point is that theorists get up to all kinds of tricks if you don't stand over them with a spiked club.
@0celo7 Not quite correct. You can always just leave the cutoff in place - that gives physical quantities just fine.
21:28
The result is that someone has written a paper related to essentially anything you might bump into.
That's actually been the case with essentially all the big experimental coups of the later 20th and early 21st centuries.
@dmckee I don't think "supporting linear waves" is necessary. All the free fields indeed do that, but QFT is also meant to hold for interacting fields
Neutrino mixing was described as a possibility before Ray Davis discovered the solar neutrino problem, but the paper was ignored languishing in obscurity.
@FenderLesPaul big rejection day
@0celo7 "classical"
heh
@ManishEarth Hmm?
21:42
@0celo7 I love how the meaning of the word "classical" changes as you learn more physics
@0celo7 Normal people don't count GR among "classical physics" ;)
Normal people?
Especially in QM, I think I've heard 2-3 different levels of QM/QFT being termed as "classical" over my courses
Schrodinger when learning Dirac, Dirac/etc when learning QFT, QFT when dabbling in the standard model and stringy thingies
Your profile says you're an engineer, why did you take QFT?
I'm complicated
I'm an "engineering physics" student
in a college where the EP program is one which offers you a lot of good pure physics courses, in which like half the people want to go for pure physics
21:44
My dad has an MS in Engineering Physics, QFT is not usually included in that.
Yes, because it's only engineering physics by name :)
though I could actually take EP courses. I just didn't.
aside from the few core courses that are actually EP
See, those engineers admit they secretly want to be physicists :D
I did want to do physics for a long time, but last year I decided to go into software instead. That always existed as a backup plan and was one of the reasons I chose an engineering college (where I can be in touch with CS as well)
::puts down topology book:: @ACuriousMind What are you saying?
I think I'll ask a GR question today.
I wonder if g waves can be used to increase cell signal?
if you have a few spare yuuuuge objects lying around, sure
21:49
Trump jokes stopped being funny long ago.
@GPhys I didn't get into Princeton I think
because they started sending out and I got no email
but the point still stands, how do you make them?
that concludes all the schools I care about
between MIT and UCSB I'm going to pick UCSB
Did you get into MIT?
21:51
yeah
UChicago didn't come out yet but I don't really wanna go there
I just wanna meet Bob Wald in person :p
THEOREM 8.1.1!!!!
haha yeah
@FenderLesPaul Hawking-Ellis handy?
@FenderLesPaul Is there a newer book on spacetime topology that doesn't cost $300?
I don't want to spend my first two paychecks to get one damn book!
21:56
uhh lemme see
can't find one
why not try papers?
They don't even try to be pedagogical
It's pretty rare to apply QFT to something
I'm trying to find something to learn over the summer
Usually at most people use RQM
Wtf is this
THIS THING IS WRITTEN IN WORD
Crackpot book published by Oxford? Wtf?
Also, Jesus, it's a PDE book.
22:03
It's not all words?
It's pretty wordy for a physics book but not enough to raise any red flags
It's not in LaTeX, that's enough to discredit it.
The Principia Mathematica wasn't in LaTeX
Newton made it entirely with MS Words
22:21
@ACuriousMind Where does the $\Lambda$ notation for exterior stuff come from?
@0celo7 I think it's supposed to be a large wedge, but since it looks like a lambda, everyone writes a lambda
@ACuriousMind Ok, that makes sense. What about the $\Omega$ notation?
no idea
Do you know what I'm talking about?
@0celo7 Yes, unless you are not talking about denoting the k-forms by $\Omega^k$.
22:26
@ACuriousMind No, that's right.
@ACuriousMind It's probably because we like to write "let $\omega$ be a $p$-form"
@ACuriousMind Why do we write $\omega$ for the typical form?
@0celo7 no idea
Ask the hsm people :P
@ACuriousMind Hmm, maybe because the typical vector is $v$. The next typical vector is $w$. Since having $\nu$ and $v$ in the same calculation might be confusing (thinking typewriter days here), they went with $w\to\omega$ for the typical form.
Why would the typewriter have a distinct $\omega$, but not $\nu$?
It might not!
But it's pretty hard to confuse $v$ and $\omega$.
And $w$ does not show up in every calculation.
@ACuriousMind What exactly is the difference between $\mathbb{R}^n\times\mathbb{R}^m$ and $\mathbb{R}^n\oplus\mathbb{R}^m$? Please dear god no category theory...
@0celo7 If you don't want category theory, then there is no difference.
22:36
@ACuriousMind Is $\oplus$ distributive over $\oplus$?
That might be a stupid question.
That's a strange question, how could any operation distribute over itself?
But if you meant to ask whether the tensor product distributes over the direct sum, then yes
@ACuriousMind I ask because Sharpe, in his section on forms, has: Let $M=\mathbb{R}^m$, then $$TM\oplus\cdots\oplus TM\cong \mathbb{R}^m\times(\mathbb{R}^m\oplus\cdots\oplus\mathbb{R}^m)$$
@0celo7 Ahhhhh
There are three different operations here
Yes, the Whitney sum, vector space sum and Cartesian product.
Exactly
22:42
@ACuriousMind Ok, but the Whitney sum is just a fiberwise direct sum.
But that's not my confusion...I don't think.
@0celo7 Right. So it is different from the sum of vector spaces, since $TM\oplus_\text{Whitney} TM = \mathbb{R}^{3m}$, but $TM\oplus_\text{vector space} TM = \mathbb{R}^{4m}$.
Ah!
Danke. But isn't it also true that one could replace $\mathbb{R}^m\times$ with $\mathbb{R}^m\oplus$?
@0celo7 Yes and no. There is no $\oplus$ on manifolds. What the r.h.s. is supposed to be is of the form $B\times F$ for the base $B$ and the fiber $F$ of the bundle. Writing $B\oplus F$ doesn't make sense.
@ACuriousMind Ah, interesting.
(Or, well, $\oplus$ in the category of manifolds is pretty boring: It's the disjoint union)
22:48
I said no categories >:(
Sorry, can't control myself :P
@ACuriousMind So, uh, how the heck does one actually do surface integrals again?
Like if I wanted to integrate $v(x)\in T\mathbb{R}^3$ over $S^2$?
@0celo7 Hint: There's a reason some physicists would denote that by $\int_{S^2} \vec v \cdot\mathrm{d}\vec A$.
@ACuriousMind I know exactly how they write it.
I'm telling you I've completely forgotten what that means.
Does one need to parameterize the sphere using two real numbers...then calculate $\mathrm{d}A$?
Maybe there's a cross product involved?
@0celo7 $\mathrm{d}\vec A$ is the normal vector. So express the normal vector to the sphere as a function of $\phi,\theta$, compute its dot product with $\vec v(\phi,\theta)$, integrate the resulting number over $\phi,\theta$.
22:54
Yeah, how the heck does one find the normal vector? I'm thinking there's a cross product involved!
@0celo7 Of course, it's the cross product of the two tangent vectors :P
What the heck are the tangent vectors?
$\partial_\theta$ and $\partial_\phi$
You know what I meant :P
Do I use the chain rule to calculate those in $x,y,z$ coordinates?
@0celo7 Yes!
22:57
@ACuriousMind Ok, good. Slight panic moment.
Wait, chain rule?
How the heck is the sphere defined?
Oh damn I need spherical polar coordinates or something
Then fix $r$
Of course you need spherical coordinates to compute an integral over the sphere, what did you expect?
@ACuriousMind A magical geometrical fairy to tell me there's an easier way to do this.
@ACuriousMind Now what is the exact geometric theory of that integral?
@0celo7 ?
Is one integrating $\star v^\flat$ over $S^2$?
@0celo7 Yes
23:03
@ACuriousMind Ok, how does integration over a submanifold actually work? Doesn't one technically have to pull back the form along the inclusion?
@0celo7 What do you think you're doing when you express $v$ as a function of $\phi,\theta$?
Beats me!
@ACuriousMind That seems like a pullback along a chart to me.
Or maybe pullback along the inclusion and then along a chart.
@ACuriousMind Am I going insane?
@0celo7 The pullback is actually a bit hidden here. You have that ${\star}v\wedge n = \langle v,n\rangle\omega$ for $n$ the 1-form belonging to the normal vector.and $\omega$ the volume form. So what you pull back is actually the volume form (and it becomes the induced volume form on $S^2$), the $\langle v,n\rangle$ just gets expressed as functions of $\theta,\phi$.
@0celo7 Possibly, why?
I would ask for proof of that equation but I strangely know it.
@0celo7 It's the defining property of the Hodge dual :P
23:13
@ACuriousMind Straumann makes his readers prove it using the definition of the dual in a basis.
I know. It's pretty terrible.
@ACuriousMind What is the induced volume form on $S^2$?
$\partial_\theta\wedge\partial_\phi$?
@0celo7 Precisely the pullback of $\omega$ along the inclusion.
Computing it for the sphere is a completely standard exercise
@ACuriousMind But that would involve me calculating a pullback, i.e. partial derivatives.
(In plainer words: I am sure you have seen the area element of a sphere before :P)
23:17
I know I have.
I'm reviewing my 2/3d calculus for my PDE class
Somehow I don't think my prof who is a physicist if you close one eye will be too impressed if I write $\star v\wedge n=\langle v,n\rangle\omega$ on a quiz/exam ;)
I concur.
@ACuriousMind Ok, how would I integrate, say, a $3$-form in $5$-space?
With considerable effort, judging from your attempt in 3-space ;P
@0celo7 There you have no tricks, just take the 3-form and pull it back along the immersion of the 3-submanifold you're integrating it over.
23:21
Ok, so that's what I thought!
So the stars and shit in the $\mathbb{R}^3$ case is just a trick?
Yes, if you believe that integrating forms is the "fundamental" operation, then all of those low-dimensional vector integrations are just tricks.
@ACuriousMind Great, it's clear now.
The vectors are much nicer for the geometric intuition, though - I have still not trained myself to visualize a form without much effort.
I don't know what the fuck a form is, tbh.
It's the section of some damn bundle or whatever
@ACuriousMind what is a form
There are "nice" pictures like a 1-form in 3 space being a bunch of planes, and integrating it along a line is counting how many planes the line intersects. A 2-form in three-space is a bunch of lines, and integrating it over a surface is counting how many lines the surface intersects
23:26
I never understood that though
Counting is 1, 2, 3
the integral need not be an integer
@0celo7 And a vector field is not a finite set of vectors stapled to points on a grid, yet we draw it as one
It's a picture, it's not meant to tell you how to actually compute the numerical value
Note that there is an arbitrary normalization in this picture of forms - which density of points, for instance, corresponds to the canonical volume three-form?
@ACuriousMind it's not?
@ACuriousMind What's the motivation behind having a textbook cost $300
It's not even a calculus book that 5,000 people per school buy every year
@0celo7 How am I supposed to know?
Probably greed :P
At $300 all people do is pirate it
Having the book be \$100 is greed, \$300 is just stupidity
23:57
@ACuriousMind Do I need chapter 10 in Bredon?
@0celo7 My version of Bredon only has 7 chapters.
Section 1.10 :P

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