The h Bar

Bernard Meurer

01:00

We here do, but we are the minority

Sir Cumference

Sigh...I guess that's true...

0celo7

@ChrisWhite Yes.

Once with 100% error.

Sir Cumference

But even if we don't teach the complicated stuff, there is too much left untaught or taught incorrectly

Bernard Meurer

@0celo7 That time when you used Newtonian physics to calculate the money in your bank account isn't valid

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Because you couldn't solve a quadratic equation?

0celo7

01:02

@ACuriousMind *sshole

Bernard Meurer

@ACuriousMind S A V A G E

Sir Cumference

Again, dark matter and the atomic structure are both well known but completely misunderstood

Bernard Meurer

Apply cold water to the burnt area

0celo7

@BernardMeurer I've never tried that

@BernardMeurer It's not a burn, it's just plain mean.

I'm crying...

Bernard Meurer

@0celo7 I tried, doesn't work

ACuriousMind

01:02

Oct 28 '15 at 23:40, by 0celo7

I wish you people were meaner

Bernard Meurer

HAHAHAHAHAHA

What's into @ACuriousMind today?!

0celo7

@ACuriousMind wtf

HDE 226868

Dark matter isn't well-known. Far from it. There are so many different models - WIMPs, axions, superpartners (in some cases, AFAIK).

Bernard Meurer

MONSTAH

Sir Cumference

Are ya kidding?

Every sci-fi or fantasy thing ever has a misunderstood version of dark matter

Bernard Meurer

01:04

It's called fiction for a reason @SirCumference

ACuriousMind

Oh god, expecting Sci-Fi to be scientifically accurate completely misunderstands the point of most Sci-Fi

Sir Cumference

But it's so misleading. Everyone I know thinks that dark matter is some evil entity

Bernard Meurer

It doesn't have a compromise with scientific accuracy

HDE 226868

@SirCumference Which is why you don't learn science from science fiction.

Bernard Meurer

@SirCumference Really, everyone? Aren't you being a little to dramatic?

user54412

01:05

Indeed. Moreover, it's sci-fi/**fantasy** for a reason -- the science is a plot device to explore the human condition in the aggregate (as opposed to individuals doing mundane things, like the 19th century English novel)

Sir Cumference

@HDE Unfortunately, many people do

HDE 226868

@SirCumference Define "evil" and "everyone".

0celo7

@BernardMeurer Yes, really.

HDE 226868

@SirCumference You're sure about that?

0celo7

@HDE226868 Evil: violates the nonaggression principle.

We've been over this.

Bernard Meurer

01:05

Evil = abuse

Sir Cumference

They seem to think it annihilates anything it touches

Too bad that's antimatter

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Just belatedly fulfilling your request :)

HDE 226868

Again, what's your sample made of?

Other high schoolers?

People in your town?

Sir Cumference

Well then again, antimatter only annihilates its matter equivalent

0celo7

@ACuriousMind Yeah but I've had a crappy day

Bernard Meurer

01:06

@SirCumference IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER

Sir Cumference

Adults

Bernard Meurer

We care about it, they don't

and they don't have to

nor do they want to

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 :/

Bernard Meurer

you can't foist knowledge and interest upon people

Sir Cumference

But Goddammit, it's like teaching the Earth is flat again!

HDE 226868

01:07

@SirCumference Not me!

Bernard Meurer

Really @SirCumference is it really?

Sir Cumference

Only this time, instead of not knowing what dark matter is, people think it's destructive!

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I thought having that prof as a mentor would be cool, but all he's doing is making me feel bad that I'm not as smart as him

Sir Cumference

@HDE226868 Of course not you. We're in a physics chat.

Bernard Meurer

I didn't hear dark matter once throughout high school (Brazilian here)

Sir Cumference

01:07

I mean people in general.

And are ya technically an adult?

HDE 226868

@SirCumference I was referring to adulthood.

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference So Flatland also should not have been written? Because right now you seem to be claiming that fiction is at fault for people taking it for real.

Bernard Meurer

@SirCumference Yes

0celo7

@BernardMeurer Me neither (America)

HDE 226868

Still 17.

Sir Cumference

01:09

Or how about how 99% of atom pictures in google images are the Bohr model atoms?

Just teach something closer to the truth, my god.

Bernard Meurer

So you're complaining about google now?

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 That is a completely normal feeling. My bachelor thesis advisor completely took me apart in our first meeting, at least from my point of view

Sir Cumference

@HDE226868 Wait, you're 17 and you've studied GR?

Bernard Meurer

@SirCumference I'm 17 and I studied GR

3507

@SirCumference isn't that normal here?

ACuriousMind

01:10

He's at least 30 in sarcasm years

Sir Cumference

Huh.

HDE 226868

@SirCumference Some of the basics. Not much more.

0celo7

I'm 18 and I've studied GR

Bernard Meurer

I don't recall anything, but someone tried to teach me at some point in time

0celo7

do i get a medal too

3507

01:10

duh

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 Ya gotta slow the hell down. Let me catch up.

ACuriousMind

::hands @0celo7 medal::

3507

^

0celo7

@ACuriousMind yay :D

guest

@SirCumference your original question was about the "temperature" of a photon :P

Sir Cumference

01:11

Oh dang, yeah it is XD

Bernard Meurer

I throw stuff at people in the airplane and observe the trajectory, do I get something?

0celo7

@ACuriousMind OTOH he said he'll teach a course on spinors in GR / minmal surfaces / whatever I think is interesting if enough other people think is interesting

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer yes, arrested

4

0celo7

but I fear if that happens I won't understand a word...

Bernard Meurer

What the fuck is a spinor?

Sir Cumference

01:11

My chemistry and particle physics knowledge is meh

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 See, he wants to make you as smart as him ;)

Sir Cumference

@BernardMeurer en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinor

Found that site, has loads of info

Bernard Meurer

@SirCumference It was a reference to someone's suggested book title hahaha

0celo7

@ACuriousMind Right, I know he likes me, but he said my classes are trivial...

Sir Cumference

Oh XD

0celo7

01:13

I don't think they are (but I know for someone like him or you they would be)

Sir Cumference

All right, last question. Does it not bother anyone else that scientific information is so misunderstood?

Atoms, dark matter, the Big Bang?

Teaching it is one thing. Teaching it wrong is another.

Secret

@SirCumference Economics is actually quite important in explaining many things in ecosystems, such as the population dynamics of some species over a period of time and how they interact

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 The "trivial" class might just the the most straightforward one, not the trivially easy one. Unfortunately, this meaning is only understood on the level of class cohomology.

guest

Btw, if the wave is flat it has an infinite "wave length" ;-)

Sir Cumference

@Secret Of course it's important and has use in life. But it's at a much smaller scale than other things.

@0celo7 Oh by the way, calc is darn interesting

But I feel like I've learned things in a really awkward order

Secret

01:16

@ACuriousMind In particular, they love to put the term "tachyons" to pretty much everything, to the point that the presence of this word defines how scifi it is (unless you are dealing with hard scifi)

guest

Scale is the issue for everything

Bernard Meurer

@SirCumference How old are you?

Sir Cumference

17

0celo7

@ACuriousMind what

guest

-_-

Sir Cumference

01:17

.-.

@guest Um...yeah?

Oh, forgot. How about teaching that mass = amount of matter in something?

Personally, I learned that mass = something's "resistance toward going at the speed of light". Not sure if that's correct, but it seemed to make sense.

0celo7

@SirCumference I don't think anyone can really tell you what mass is

Sir Cumference

And that massive objects can't reach lightspeed because they, by definition, have resistance toward it

guest

Have you read Einstein's book for high schoolers?

Relativity: the special and general theory

Sir Cumference

No?

0celo7

@guest c'mon

ACuriousMind

01:23

@SirCumference Mass is really just the eigenvalue of the generator of a central extension to the Poincare algebra.

0celo7

@SirCumference Just read Hawking-Ellis

@ACuriousMind Bullshit there's no such algebra on curved spacetime

Sir Cumference

Er...so what I've learned was incorrect?

guest

Check it out @SirCumference

0celo7

@ACuriousMind don't lie to the boy

you and your flat spaces

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 bullshit there's no such curved spacetime in my QFT

Sir Cumference

01:23

"Boy"... ._.

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference As incorrect as F=ma.

Bernard Meurer

In the h-bar the line between total bullshit and really advanced stuff is infinidecimally fine

0celo7

@ACuriousMind fite me irl 1v1

Sir Cumference

Wait, so what's mass?

0celo7

@SirCumference We don't know.

Sir Cumference

01:24

In GR it has no specific definition

Bernard Meurer

What they use to make pies. Next!

Sir Cumference

Yeah, sure. That's my recipe. Take one spoon of mass and stir for 5 mins.

Put it in the oven and presto.

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 no, you'd probably win

Sir Cumference

So we use mass in a bunch of equations, yet have no idea what it is?

What the hell?

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference Mass is what your scale measures, length is what your ruler measures, time is what your clock measures.

Works pretty fine so far

Sir Cumference

01:26

But I can define the last two. Length is a measure of distance. Time is the progression of events.

The hell is mass?

ACuriousMind

The hell is distance? The hell is a "progression of events"?

guest

Define: measurement :P

Sir Cumference

The amount of space between objects

Bernard Meurer

Mass? It's the majority in group; Next!

Sir Cumference

Time can be defined as the rate at which things to change.

ACuriousMind

01:28

The hell is "space", and how do I count it do get the "amount"?

Sir Cumference

@guest Now you're just arguing semantics

Oh god

guest

So are you pal.

Bernard Meurer

Dude, it's all an illusion

Sir Cumference

"semitics"...

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference No, the rate at which things change is their time derivative

Sir Cumference

01:29

If everything is an illusion, then they can be called real.

There's nothing to contrast them with.

guest

You have fallen down the "rabbit hole" @SirCumference :D

Sir Cumference

This is just philosophy.

guest

Just?

ACuriousMind

What exactly were you expecting when asking "What is mass?"

Sir Cumference

Philosophy usually isn't based on anything. Science is.

The hell are we using in our equations?

Bernard Meurer

01:30

Numbers

ACuriousMind

The symbol $m$

Bernard Meurer

and letters

Sir Cumference

Can science not find a definite meaning for it?

Bernard Meurer

Not yet

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference Give me one example of a word with such a definite meaning.

Bernard Meurer

01:31

That's why we define the Kg with a bloody lump of platinum like if we were caveman

Sir Cumference

Hell?

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Cavemen with a ball of platinum. Seems legit.

Sir Cumference

The bad afterlife when you die?

guest

Life has a definite meaning :P

Sir Cumference

@guest Not really. Are viruses alive?

guest

01:32

Ask them.

Sir Cumference

That starts to get arguments.

0celo7

@ACuriousMind what, why

you've already said you're never coming to America

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference People don't even agree on the existence of an afterlife, much less on its details. How can that word have a definite meaning?

0celo7

so it'd be in Europa

you have the home field advantange

Sir Cumference

AAAAAAH...Goddammit. Just what the hell are we doing, just plugging in random things and expecting answers to the Universe?

0celo7

01:33

YES

MAYBE

Sir Cumference

Especially when we don't know what we're plugging in?

ACuriousMind

YES

Bernard Meurer

YES

ITS ALL MAGIC

6

Sir Cumference

._.

0celo7

what was the question??

guest

01:33

YES

Sir Cumference

;-;

Secret

Of the science, I have a low interest in palaeontology and archaeology, probably because it is too far away.

If I include non sciences, then politics is the least interested unless the concepts can be taught without bias and corruption tones...

0celo7

@ACuriousMind sounds like one of the grad students in my lab...

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference Of course, you have to realize what we're doing is not really random. We're doing it because it has worked perfectly fine so far.

Sir Cumference

But then we're not really learning about the Universe

Bernard Meurer

01:35

It follows a clear set of laws and they have worked really well so far

Sir Cumference

We're just finding things that can be applicable

Bernard Meurer

but what are they built upon, we are not there yet

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference Yes, that's what science is.

Secret

I am usually not very interested in people (reminds me too much about corruption), unless they can be viewed as a non human entity. For example, to consider the society as a system of some sort, and analyse that without referring too much about people

Bernard Meurer

Ta-daa science!

3

Sir Cumference

01:36

Sigh...and here I thought science was how we study the Universe...

Things just got a whole less cool...

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference It is the best working approximation to that that we have

guest

Ba bum tss

Bernard Meurer

@SirCumference All we care is about blowing stuff up man, the rest is just a show

ACuriousMind

Speak for yourself, experimentalist

Sir Cumference

Um...

Secret

01:37

For example, finance does not interested me in the past (because money->corruption->bad->headache to think about)
Until just last year, a professor managed to taught it by reducing it into just a bunch of abstract concepts (hence chunky non human entities) and then I start to get interested in it as a study of how something called money flows in a system

Bernard Meurer

What did you just call me @ACuriousMind?

Wanna fight brah?

1v1 irl

0celo7

he called you useful

3507

ooo

0celo7

somehow he thinks that's an insult

Bernard Meurer

Snap

guest

01:38

Fight!

Bernard Meurer

Everything in italic is an insult

0celo7

@guest I'd gladly fight him

he punked out the last time I was near him

Sad. Very sad.

Secret

@BernardMeurer So the bottomline is: It is possible to make me interested in a subject as long you can make it so that it does not remind me of people (except psychology, which I am interested because of self protection)

Bernard Meurer

Look
You're so nice
You're so *nice*

Sir Cumference

So what's science?

guest

01:39

Be nice.

Sir Cumference

Redefine it?

Bernard Meurer

I broke it ;-;

0celo7

yeah

Bernard Meurer

I've told you @SirCumference It's all magic

Sir Cumference

This just got way philosophical.

0celo7

01:39

nice

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Linebreaks kill the markdown

0celo7

you just don't have the skills

@ACuriousMind why would you tell him this

Sir Cumference

@BernardMeurer Starting to feel like that might be accurate...

Bernard Meurer

HA! Thanks Bajoran!

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Because it is true?

Bernard Meurer

01:40

@Secret hahahaha

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I don't tell you everything that's true

you'd probably be freaked out

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 You don't?!?! :O

guest

:O

0celo7

@ACuriousMind Yes.

I didn't tell you what really happened with those shorts...

Bernard Meurer

WHATS WITH THESE SHORTS YOU PEOPLE TALK ABOUT

guest

01:42

::shocking::

0celo7

Has anyone heard of R.F. Brown, A Topological Introduction to Nonlinear Analysis?

Bernard Meurer

I've heard of Brownie, does it work?

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Something like this?

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I wish I were Rudin...

In more than one sense.

You can figure out which senses

ACuriousMind

I think I can

0celo7

01:44

I'll give you a hint

guest

Have you watched him on youtube?

0celo7

He doesn't suck at analysis

:(

Bernard Meurer

Is there a way to kill the bloody RSS feed?

ACuriousMind

@BernardMeurer Nope

guest

You gotta be a room owner.

3507

01:45

dismiss it duh

Secret

@ACuriousMind Back in 2014 and earlier when I was still scientism (please do not confuse this with scientology), I had the same kind of idea that science=truth. Until some time during that year, someone told me that science is just a model to try to understand and predict phenomenon, I then became an agnostic and can view science in the way you mentioned

user54412

@BernardMeurer It's there to remind you to stop idling in chat and answer some questions :p

Bernard Meurer

@ChrisWhite hahahaha

ACuriousMind

He's probably right you know

guest

Good answer ;P

0celo7

01:46

I don't know enough to answer questions...

Bernard Meurer

@ChrisWhite Unless it's about Python I won't know shizzizles about it

0celo7

@Secret wow you were a scientologist

3507

@0celo7 orly?

Secret

nope:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
Scientism is a different thing form scientology

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Lie!

Bernard Meurer

01:47

Hes a pastafarian that's what he is!

0celo7

@ACuriousMind wow

Bernard Meurer

Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) is the deity of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Pastafarianism (a portmanteau of pasta and Rastafarian), a social movement that promotes a light-hearted view of religion and opposes the teaching of intelligent design and creationism in public schools. Although adherents describe Pastafarianism as a genuine religion, it is generally seen by the media as a parody religion. The "Flying Spaghetti Monster" was first described in a satirical open letter written by Bobby Henderson in 2005 to protest the Kansas State Board of Education decision to permit...

0celo7

what evidence do you have of my lie

3507

your 115 answers...?

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 The 115 answers you have written?

0celo7

01:48

I could not write those again.

Seriously.

You people don't believe that I have an absolutely terrible memory.

Secret

@0celo7 Me neither, Some time when I saw a question that I thought I can answer, it turns out the answer is not perfect enough and then I give up writing it up because I don't know enough to address all possible loopholes that one can find

0celo7

I've forgotten German for Pete's sake and I spoke it every day for 6 years.

guest

I believe you :P

0celo7

I once thought in German and now I can barely speak it.

Bernard Meurer

No you haven't @0celo7!

You made me listen to you just yesterday!

0celo7

01:50

Yes I have.

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Hmmm...you once forgot that you played Battlefield for 1000 hours. I'm inclined to believe you have a terrible memory.

3507

will you forget about us when you someday leave the chat forever?

Bernard Meurer

BATTLEFIELD

ANYONE?

0celo7

@ACuriousMind CoD 6.

Secret

When I wrote an answer, I have a tendency to scan for all possible followed up questions that can be produced from the answer, and my aim often is to ensure my answer to be able to answer as many of these follow up questions that may pop up in the future

0celo7

01:50

BF3 is at ~800 hours. @BernardMeurer can confirm.

Bernard Meurer

True, he's a BF3 monstah

0celo7

@3507 Probably not.

It's hard to forget @ACuriousMind.

Bernard Meurer

Thanks a lot for shredding my heart @0celo7

0celo7

Oh, you others are memorable too, I guess.

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 <3

guest

01:52

:,(

3507

@guest ?

ACuriousMind

I see we have transcended language

Bernard Meurer

:O

guest

Language is too...transcendental

3507

speaking of language I thought it would be cool to learn Icelandic.

0celo7

01:54

@3507 that's a useless skills

there's like 10 of those people out there

guest

Last I counted it was 12 ;P

Bernard Meurer

@0celo7 likes iceladic experimental a lot

0celo7

true fact

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Not necessarily

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I see you took that as a complement. In that case, <3 right back atcha

guest

01:57

Aww

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I'm reading this paper and am confused. What's "void swelling"?

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 You should talk to your doctor about that

Bernard Meurer

NSFW

0celo7

@ACuriousMind you are my doctor

@ACuriousMind is the angle BAG here given by $\sin\theta=H/\sqrt{4L^2+H^2}$

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Yes

0celo7

02:12

@ACuriousMind thanks

@ACuriousMind so why is Milnor so good

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 He's amazingly concise, at the exact right level of detail.

0celo7

Do you think I'm capable of reading it?

With a little help from profs

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 I predict you will at first disagree with "exact right level of detail"

0celo7

What do you mean?

ACuriousMind

There are several proofs which sound more like "proofs by picture" than rigorous proofs, but contain enough information to construct the rigorous proof. It takes a bit to get used to

0celo7

02:17

Ah...

$64!!!

@BernardMeurer These are Brazilian prices!

Bernard Meurer

What are you trying to buy?

And that's abusive!

0celo7

I agree

@BernardMeurer Milnor's Morse Theory book

He also said to get the diff top book, but...meh

Secret

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition
Hmm...
So states can superimposed because they are solutions of SE and SE is linear. SE is linear because the evolution is linear.

So that means, in order to explain why superposition arises is to explain why evolution of a system is linear at atomic scales...

Bernard Meurer

Stack Exchange?

0celo7

Schroeeeeeeeeedinger equation

btw I can't pronounce that one either

Bernard Meurer

02:23

Oh not again

@ACuriousMind still owes us a Skype @0celo7

0celo7

yeah

but not tonight

FenderLesPaul

02:34

bishes

Bernard Meurer

what the hell

0celo7

@FenderLesPaul you get in somewhere?

FenderLesPaul

nope

I did apply for a job though

0celo7

@FenderLesPaul :/

FenderLesPaul

what

3507

02:40

@FenderLesPaul why didn't you get in anywhere?

FenderLesPaul

I wish I knew

Bernard Meurer

The building is on fire

fire

3507

@FenderLesPaul :(

FenderLesPaul

:p

Bernard Meurer

@FenderLesPaul I still love you tho

0celo7

02:49

gayyyyyy

FenderLesPaul

@BernardMeurer Thanks!!!! <33333

Bernard Meurer

@0celo7 You date a 60 year old flute player

0celo7

...

Bernard Meurer

Hahaha @FenderLesPaul Slowly intensified his thanks

0celo7

oh c'mon who starred that

Bernard Meurer

02:51

This is @0celo7's date csw.utk.edu/faculty/pages/bolen

Lol, it's marked on the pages of history now

0celo7

...

Bernard Meurer

We all dress the same when we're nude

FenderLesPaul

deep

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