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21:03
@BernardMeurer Wow mean
@0celo7 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to harm you
@DanielSank The prof who promised to hire me last semester has decided he doesn't have enough money for me...I was supposed to start on a Raman project soon :/
21:19
physicists turn everything into a verb
@FenderLesPaul Halp
Define dimension of a vector space pls
Minimum number of linearly independent vectors needed to span the space
@FenderLesPaul Ok, next question
True or False w/o ZFC "every finite dimensional vector space has a basis"
21:22
false
oh
finite dimensional
with finite dimensional vec sp it should be true in ZF
sorry then it's true
for a finite dim. space you can always use Gram-Schmidt
but the dimension is defined using a basis
so how do we know if it's finite dimensional to begin with
to find its dimension we have to find a basis
Is this a stupid question?
21:24
you mean operationally?
you can define the span of vectors
I mean to say "$V$ has dimension $n$" means there is a linearly independent set that spans $V$ and has $n$ elements
and their linear independence
if Gram-Schmidt works then you're good; if you can't construct a basis using it then you're not in a finite dimensional space
How how can we use $n<\infty$ to prove there exists a basis
21:26
assume it's finite, try to apply Gram-Schmidt
you can construct finite dim vec spaces using the span of vectors
if it works then it's consistent, if it doesn't work then the assumption is wrong
@FenderLesPaul I don't think it works exactly that way...
@yuggib aye, but the dimension is defined using a basis, right?
yes
21:28
we can only say "the vec space has dimension n" if we can find a basis with n vectors
but how do we know that it has a basis to begin with
I see your point
Define the trace in an abstract way, define a vector space to be finite-dimensional of dimension $n$ when the trace of the identity is $n$. Problem solved.
@ACuriousMind :/
@ACuriousMind Can you prove $\Leftrightarrow$ $\exists$ basis with $n$ vectors?
Why ":/"? It resolves the problem
@0celo7 Yes
Can I see the proof pls?
21:34
You should be able to figure it out yourself
I don't even know where to start...
How exactly are you defining the trace?
Same way we did tensor contraction?
Exactly
dude wtf is up with your avatar
is that Benjamin Franklin?
@0celo7
Yes.
Good ol' Benjamin Ocelot.
Or is it Revolver Franklin?
Actually, that might be Liquid Ocelot...so Liquid Franklin.
Sounds like a euphemism for...
@ACuriousMind Blargh
Perhaps Benedict Arnold :P
21:41
@ACuriousMind Did you need an inner product for this?
@0celo7 No
@ACuriousMind ::sigh:: I still don't understand how to define the trace abstractly.
I don't know how to write $\operatorname{tr}\mathrm{id}=n$ abstractly
All I have is that there is a tensor $\delta: V^*\otimes V$ and its trace is $n$.
@0celo7 The trace is the linear map $\mathrm{tr} : V^\ast\otimes V\to\mathbb{R}$ induced by the bilinear map $V^\ast\times V\to\mathbb{R}, (f,v) = f(v)$.
Okay. Now what hinders you to write $\mathrm{tr}(\mathrm{id}) = n$?
I have no clue what that means.
...it means the trace of the identity is $n$, what else could it mean?
I'm not getting what your problem is
21:51
I know that.
@ACuriousMind I removed the confusing message.
I actually have no clue what that means.
@ACuriousMind I understand that there is a bilinear map $\delta: V^*\times V\to\mathbb{R}, (f,v)=f(v)(=f(\operatorname{id}v))$.
So this tells me $\delta\in V\otimes V^*$ by definition.
But I don't see how anything is induced.
@0celo7 Uh, no - the maps $\delta : V^\ast\times V\to\mathbb{R}$ and $\mathrm{tr} : V^\ast\otimes V\to\mathbb{R}$ are two different maps.
@ACuriousMind Did I say they were the same?
@0celo7 You wrote $\delta\in V\otimes V^\ast$.
Yes, and the trace acts on elements of that space.
That the trace acts on elements of that space is correct. But $\delta\in V\otimes V^\ast$ is incorrect.
22:04
Oh I see. We're using a different ordering of things.
In abstract index notation, we would write $\delta^a{}_b$.
Or, rather, you can make $\delta$ define an element in $V\otimes V^\ast$, but that is not what we are doing. We are using the universal property to get the trace map $V^\ast \otimes V\to\mathbb{R}$ from the bilinear map $\delta$ (if you are troubled by the word "induced", just don't use it :P)
Now I'm confused by the ordering of things as well.
I have no idea what you mean by "ordering of things"
$V\otimes V^*$ vs. $V^*\otimes V$
Oh, that's completely irrelevant
They're canonically isomorphic, after all
22:08
Yes, by the universal property.
I don't see how the universal property allows us to get the trace!
That's been my problem this whole time.
I just don't understand those words.
The universal property is that you get a map $V\otimes W\to X$ for every bilinear map $V\times W\to X$, right?
Yes...well when you put it that way.
@ACuriousMind It should then be clear that I in no way have any idea how to prove this implies the existence of $n$ linearly independent vectors that span $V$.
@ACuriousMind I think the other way around is easier, one can construct $\delta^i{}_j$ and sum diagonal elements.
I don't think you can define the trace that way for $V$s that are not finite dimensional
Can I at least have a hint for $\Rightarrow$?
@0celo7 Then just choose a modification of the definition of dimension that you're more comfortable with. You could e.g. define the dimension of a vector space $V$ by the maximal length of a chain of true inclusions $\{0\}\subset V_1\subset V_2\subset V_3\subset\dots V$.
That also makes no reference to a basis and thus also resolves the circular reasoning problem
22:22
@ACuriousMind yes
but it fails without choice
@ACuriousMind Ok but I don't know how to prove that either
@yuggib I thought the issue is that we want the statement "finite-dimensional vector spaces have a basis" to not be circular because we defined "finite-dimensional" by having a finite basis.
Of course, no matter how you define dimensions, the statement "infinite-dimensional vector spaces have a basis" will fail without choice
no, the point is that I think it also fails for finite dim vec spaces
Seriously, how the hell does $tr\,id=n$ imply there is a basis with $n$ elements...
22:25
in the sense that I checked my refs and in ZF there is a vec space with only finite dimensional proper subspaces that however does not have a basis
@yuggib But is the maximal length of a chain of proper inclusions finite for that space?
I am not sure you can guarantee the existence of the maximal chain without choice i.e. Zorn
Well, you can take my definition for the dimension and add "if no finite chain of maximal length exists, the space is infinite-dimensional". What's the problem with that?
Some days amateur's who think they've had a clever idea make me want to cry.
@ACuriousMind mmmmmh I'm not convinced
22:34
@ACuriousMind Understanding $\Rightarrow$ would go a long way to understanding the trace abstractly...
If universal wavefunction interpretation is to be believed, wouldn't it account for matter/antimatter asymmetry?
I mean, the chance in the early universe to have significantly more matter than antimatter is small, too small, but if it is not zero, we simply happened to live in the improbably small part of the universe's wavefunction that there exists enought baryonic matter for life to be possible, right?
@ACuriousMind Without choice how could you tell that a maximal chain exists?
it may not exist also for finite dimensional spaces
or, well, reasonably finite dimensional spaces would then be infinite dimensional per you definition
...PhD set theory
Every time.
you asked the question
Ok and I liked ACM's definition using the trace!
22:42
however maybe there is a way of proving that every finite dim space has a basis without choice
but I am not sure
But I have no clue how to prove the equivalence to the standard def
@yuggib Do you know how to it
no
it should not be difficult however
but I don't like algebra :P
it is for me...
what do you need all that for?
need what for?
22:47
the proof that every finite dim vec sp has a basis
I wanted to invoke it in my Q&A on indices
and you need it without choice??
might as well
ACM just said there is a proof without choice!
I just don't know how to do it
@yuggib today in analysis we defined $\lim_{n\to\infty} a_n$
and...that took a long time
but he explained it well, I think
:D
very well
now what I don't understand is how I'm supposed to calculate $a_n\to a$.
I can show that $a_n\to a$ is true...but how do I find $a$ given $(a_n)$?
22:53
You guess it
(No, really)
So...just like in regular calculus?
And then show convergence using the definition?
$\epsilon$-nbhds are so intuitive, I don't know why they don't do it in Calc 1
@yuggib The best thing is that he showed a double sequence $a_{ij}$ that depends on the order in which the limits are chosen
@0celo7 If you really want to work in that lab do it for free for a while.
That's how I got into my graduate school lab.
And then my PDE teacher wildly interchanged limits
Best decision I've ever made in my entire life probably.
@DanielSank He's cutting all undergrads to some degree.
23:00
@0celo7 Oh that's different.
Something something no money suddenly
meh, go around to all the labs and find the one where the students are happiest. Work there.
@DanielSank Can you prove ACM's theorem?
What theorem?
Link?
$tr\,id=n$ implies $dim\, V=n$ (using the basis definition)
$V$ is a vector space, of course
23:02
Yeah probably.
I used to be good at lin alg.
Ok, please
He won't tell me
Let's see, what are we assuming is given?
1) A vector space has a basis.
No.
That's what we want to prove.
23:05
Are we starting from the definition of vector space?
Yes.
+ universality of the tensor product
How is that relevant?
Also, what does that mean?
@0celo7 well, that's what happens when you do things properly
23:06
You need it to define $tr$.
@yuggib in PDE we solved the heat equation, finally
in one dimension...
@0celo7 So um, you first asked me to prove a statement involving $tr$, and now you're telling me it's my job to define $tr$?
I am mildly annoyed.
@DanielSank No.
The goalposts have moved.
@0celo7 perhaps you should state clearly what you would like to know.
Otherwise I'm going to vote to close this as unclear what you're asking.
@0celo7 anyways with the trace is not the good way, for you can define the trace abstractly only for finite dim vec spaces I think
at most you can do it with the chain of proper inclusions
Ok, $tr:V\otimes V^*\to\mathbb{R}$ is the unique bilinear map induced by the natural pairing $V\times V^*\to\mathbb{R},(f,v)\mapsto f(v)$. Uniqueness follows from the universal property of $\otimes$.
23:08
o_O
@ACuriousMind c'mon please just tell me :(
I can't even read that.
@0celo7 to identify $\text{End}(V)$ with $V\otimes V^*$ I think you need finite dim spaces
@yuggib Sigh...
I told you, not the good way
23:09
@DanielSank seems to have flown
the only possible in my opinion is with the chain of inclusions
I don't understand what that means either
@0celo7 you solved it in one dimension for which type of initial conditions??
@yuggib We did Dirichlet and mixed (ND).
NN is homework.
@0celo7 no no...which regularity
23:10
@yuggib Dunno.
:\
50 mins ago, by ACuriousMind
@0celo7 Then just choose a modification of the definition of dimension that you're more comfortable with. You could e.g. define the dimension of a vector space $V$ by the maximal length of a chain of true inclusions $\{0\}\subset V_1\subset V_2\subset V_3\subset\dots V$.
Yeah, I don't know what that means...
Is each $V_i$ a vector space?
yes
Oh, ok.
Why can't everyone just accept AoC so we can make life easier
I think everyone does, yes
23:14
at least everyone doing every type of math apart from set theory
best picture
What I never understood is why they don't write $N_\epsilon$ though
That would make it perfectly clear that the choice of $N$ depends on $\epsilon$
it is clear anyways
and you avoid cumbersome nested indices notation
smart people should not talk about what is "clear"
$(\forall\varepsilon>0)(\exists N\in\mathbb{N})$
23:17
Clear people should not talk about smart people. :P
it is quite clear
@yuggib Why is it bad style to write "$\forall \epsilon$" but not "$\epsilon >0$"?
We have words for $>$ too
Don't know why honestly
but the logical connectives are the ones it is bad style to put in a statement
23:19
That sound about right?
well...more or less yes
> Theorem 2.2.7 (Uniqueness of Limits). The limit of a sequence, when it exists, must be unique.
Proof. Exercise.
I think that in practice you just start with doing a bound for $\lvert x_n -x\rvert$
;_;
@yuggib Yes.
That's for finding $N$.
That outline is for the formal "writeup"
@0celo7 ok, you can see it like that
@0celo7 suppose that $x_1$ and $x_2$ are limits of $x_n$
what happens to $\lvert x_1 -x_2\rvert$?
23:26
@yuggib $<\epsilon$
$<2\varepsilon$
take $n>\max\{N_1,N_2\}$
Dude
Lemme do this myself
You figure out ACM's proof...
no thanks :D
23:27
oh, maybe you can explain something
in 5 mins that I have to sleep
;)
For a finite set $A$, $\sup A=\max A$. What's wrong with the proof: "just pick the largest element"
(ordered set)
$A\subset \mathbb{R}$
for finite you mean with a finite number of elements right?
23:30
Yes.
$\sup A \geq \max A$ by definition
since $\max A \in A$
@yuggib proof?
That's what I need to prove
the supremum is by definition larger or equal than any element of the set
@yuggib I know
so $\sup A \geq \max A$ by definition
23:32
Yes.
I'm asking why $\max A\in A$ for a finite set.
by definition of $\max$
What would that be
the element $a\in A$ such that $(\forall b\in A)a\geq b$
why does $\max A$ exist for a finite set
induction if you please
23:35
ok, why
what is wrong with "pick the largest number"
pick some nubmer in the set, compare it with all others
@0celo7 What's wrong with "pick the largest number" for an infinite set?
@ACuriousMind you will never end
that is essentially what you do, yes
With a finite set there is a finite number of comparisons you can make
so it's possible to find the largest one
$\Box$
you will learn that a rigorous proof needs a little bit more precision than that
:P
my time's up
23:37
I don't think we will. The prof just stated it.
good night/evening
@yuggib ahh triangle inequality
I think?
yes...indeed
and I already proved $\forall\epsilon>0\,\,|a-b|<\epsilon\Leftrightarrow a=b$

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