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00:01
One thing I should do maybe is just a big list of CTC spacetimes
Listed by properties
otherwise it's a bit hard to remember which space to use for something
you keep talking about these lists and projects
is there any progress on any of them?
Ahahah
No
I have the ADD man
Can't stick to a thing
@0celo7 If someone makes an attempt to calculate something and gets stuck then that is a legitimate question for this site. There are many books online, but you learn mostly from doing the hard exercises in the books. I've noted that there are quite a few teenagers between the ages of 14 and 18 here studying advanced subjects and getting help with problems here. Some of them may already be studying at university, but most children who are way ahead in physics will not be able to go to university (e.g. they may not be far enough ahead in all other subjects). — Count Iblis 2 mins ago
Uh, getting stuck in a calculation is still off-topic.
The one I advanced the most on is probably just scalar fields in wormholes
But I kinda got stuck
o.o why no \langle\rangle
00:04
@Slereah Although I find most of your questions good and interesting, I can't even really tell what you're asking here
@ACuriousMind : Basically just what CTCs would look like in like the...
What's it called again
Field theory version of GR
HEATHEN GR
where we rip the innocent maiden called geometry from the loving arms of the manifold and sacrifice her to Weinberg
Basically I think the field interaction causes it to slip out of the light cone
is light cone a euphemism here?
But I have no idea if any more things are involved
00:06
@Slereah More precise, please. A CTC is a curve in spacetime. What aspect of its "look" are you after?
THERE IS NO MOTION IN SPACETIME
Ah, there we go
Pauli-Fierz theory
Of a spin-2 field
^^
yeah
(The version valid at all orders)
which is GR
that's a theorem, which I've never bothered to prove
it's an exercise in Straumann
00:09
Mathematically speaking (I think, there might be some issues with convergence since it's an infinite sum), it should be identical to GR
But from a semantic standpoint, all happens in flat space
it is identical, it's a theorem!
Good to know!
So I'm not quite sure how the theory deals with CTCs
I recall from that guy's comment that the causality of PDEs depends on the "principal term", whatever that means, and that for scalar fields that is $\approx \partial_\mu \partial_\nu \phi$, which in that theory would depend on the $h$ field
Why does it have to "deal" with them?
00:11
Well because it is mathematically equivalent
So a CTC solution in GR should have an equivalent solution in Pauli Fierz theoriy
And hence describe non-causal propagation of fields in flat space
ah, interesting point
never thought about that
Yeah
I was wondering why it never came up really
@Slereah Yeah, it has. That $h$ you wrote down. I'm still not sure what you're actually looking for.
Well it's a bit weird that in flat space you'd get non-causal propagation, so I was wondering what the exact details where
@ACuriousMind he means a solution for the cauchy equation of the scalar field PDE, I think
00:15
At first I thought the mass of the field might turn all tachyonic
But then there was that whole thing about tachyon fields still being causal
are all tachyon fields causal?
I guess there's no real equivalent maybe, since the problem stems from a weird interaction term
@0celo7 : Well that's my other question!
@Slereah Hold right there! I don't see how the existence of a CTC is equivalent to non-causal propagation of something.
3
Q: General theorems on tachyon propagation?

SlereahI was reading the quite nice answer of QMechanic on the topic of compact support tachyon fields not propagating faster than light, but this case is a rather simple one, free scalar field in flat space. Are there any more general theorems on this? Let's say, for a field transforming under the ta...

@ACuriousMind CTC means not globally hpyerbolic means you fail the PDE hyperbolicity theorem thing
00:17
@ACuriousMind Well in the case of CTCs, there are circumstances where the future might affect the past
Retrocausality and all that
Basically breaking down of the Cauchy problem
Write a book
Causality in GR Field Theory
I had that book in project, actually
The working title was actually "CTCs and shit"
I think
haha
@0celo7 Which one, exactly?
@ACuriousMind I haven't read that chapter in HE, can't tell you exactly
gotta learn about PDEs first
00:19
@ACuriousMind : Theorem 10.2.2 of Wald
That takes like 10 lines :p
Basically that you can generate the whole spacetime from just a single spacelike hypersurface
lol
17 line theorem
just from the Cauchy development of that surface
(The full theorem is a bit longer in HE I think because he also discusses the equations obeyed by the matter field)
tbh that doesn't prove retrocausality
@Slereah yes, he also talks about the topology of the initial data
see the last line of the Wald theorem
@Slereah Yeah, okay, so presence of a CTC means the Cauchy problem is fucked up in some way. It doesn't mean something has to propagate non-causally.
Maybe not!
But then what happens
That's what I want to know
00:22
right
@Slereah See, that is probably a better question! In what way does the Cauchy problem fail in the Gödel spacetime?
what about if spacetime is compact
What can cause geodesics to loop in flat space if not spacelike movements
how does that work in Pauli-whatever
Well I specifically picked a topologically trivial spacetime to separate the issues
I mean in flat spacetime, a causal curve will always go forward
I assume a loop will involve at least some passage outside the light cone
00:24
yes, that's an excellent questiuon
would upvote again
@ACuriousMind you ask that question
@Slereah: I think you should somehow include the elaboration here into that question. I see now what the issue is, but it wasn't really clear to me from just reading your question.
@ACuriousMind It probably requires crunching through Wald and HE theorems to get what he meant
Yeah I had to think a bunch on it for a bit
Also I worked on it a little
although to be fair you've done your fair share there :)
And I switched from Godel's space to a simpler one
(There's a CTC spacetime that is pretty symmetric and has geodesics that are CTCs)
(That's not the case of Godel)
00:26
which one?
I think the paper is just titled "a spacetime with closed timelike curve geodesics"
I don't think it has a name
It's just a spacetime
no name?
then it's named after the author
or we call it the Bajoran spacetime
Author's spacetime?
Well yes but see
It is considered rude in a paper to name the spacetime after yourself
A bit presomptuous
"I shall call it the me spacetime"
ACM can coin the Bajoran spacetime
I'd cite it as such
In a...nuclear engineering paper
uh
Might be a little out of place :P
00:30
It was indeed called CTCs and shit
wow, a lot of progress there :P
Yeah
I tend to not stick to projects long :p
ffs
why dd you not TeX inline $p$ and $q$
horismotically
never heard that one before
I think the problem with particles in Pauli Fierz CTCs is that the interaction term is weird
what interaction term
00:34
It's like $f(h^{\mu\nu}) \partial_\mu \phi\partial_\nu \phi$
interaction term in what
Pauli Fierz
Gravitational field with a scalar field
WHAT in PF
bitch
what
you're triggering me
00:37
Well take the Lagrangian of a scalar field
oh the lagrangian of a scalar field
why didn't you say that
Well I did :V
nah
But basically the interaction of $h$ with the scalar field involves a term with $\partial^2 \phi$
Which I'm not sure happens in other theories
damn nonlinear PDEs
wait
is it even nonlinear
00:39
Well no
Well not in $\phi$, anyway
so it's a free scalar field in gravity
So my idea was to solve by hand and then try to find the mass of the field by hand
go do it!
Yeah I guess I should do it
publish a paper and go get a PhD
00:40
Now I got plenty of free time to do it
Let's delve into my physics folder
"A spacetime with closed timelike geodesics everywhere"
That was the paper
Much simpler to deal with than Gödel
> Oslo University College, Department of Engineering,
...
seriously?
Obviously they are building a time machine
I had started to write a thing as an answer on SE but I think the draft got deleted since then :p
I'll just rewrite it I s'ppose
Do you know what theorem guarantees that Fierz-Pauli theory at all order is identical to GR?
hmm, let's see
jesus Straumann is about to bite the dust ;'(
I dropped my Kleinert recently
page 18
00:48
Since it's about 100.000 page it kinda broke in two
he gives a reference
ah, it's Zee which asks you to prove PF is GR
I think...
@Slereah see reference 100 in Straumann
@ACuriousMind how do I fix this book?!?!
I need German smarts
S. Desner, Gen. Relativ. Grav. $\mathbf{1}$, 9 (1970)
this?
oh wait no
Too recent
"Received: 17 October 1969"
Oh I guess not
Pretty old for Arxiv :p
Is there a special name for Pauli Fierz that works at all order
I call it Pauli Fierz or Spin 2 gravity or the graviton one or the field one, but I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact name
@Slereah read the comment at the top
it's what you're looking for
00:53
"The Maxwell and Einstein fields are, respectively, the most and least
linear of gauge theories."
Badaboom!
is that a theorem?
No it's a sick burn
why
Also he calls the $h$ field $\phi$
For shame
also you might wanna read pages 17 and 18 in Straumann
00:56
I did already yeah
But it's a pretty brief introduction
but the bibliography is pretty good
damn, I need to get Freire to teach that GR class
Feynman's book on quantum gravity also contains a pretty good intro on the topic
"We now derive the full Einstein equations, on the basis of the same self-coupling requirement, but with the advantages that the full theory emerges in closed form with just one added (cubic) term, rather than as an infinite series, and that no special 'gauge’ such as gμν,ν = 0 need be introduced."
Hey neat
Feynman does it as an infinite series
you're welcome
now tell me how it works :P
01:03
It's 2 AM here, that will wait :p
so suppose I have a box on a smooth floor
going 10m/s in one direction
and now I apply a force that moves it in the other direction
and I want to find the final velocity
hmm
just ignore all of that
Oh wait
It's kind of a bogus thing
Basically he just uses both the metric and the connection independently
Well
Palatini?
It's more elegant I guess
Basically it's boring old Pauli Fierz plus an equation linking the connection to the metric
It's still going to be an infinite sum in the end I suppose but it is more elegant to write down
I guess it affects the movement of particles because it affects the PRINCIPAL PART of the PDE, whatever that is
@ACuriousMind You'll find this interesting. Prof Denzler asked me the other day why physicists are so interested in the square of the curvature of a bundle :D
01:11
Dammit Valter Moretti, what does that mean
Or maybe you won't find it interesting.
shrug
@Slereah take a class on PDEs
I suppose it is just the terms of higher order :p
But then I would like to see the theorem stating that it affects the causality of the equation
@0celo7 I am not versed in book restauration, unfortunately
Also, sorry for the sudden diappearance, but I got into a discussion of projective limits with my flatmate
read that as "restaurant" at first :p
projective limits?
@0celo7 Also called inverse limits, or just limits. It's a universal algebra/category theory construction.
01:15
probably boring then
dude, I know 0 algebra
"For the conversion of boundary problems into initial value problems we shall be concerned only with that small fraction of the general theory which deals with first-order partial differential equations with the same principal part"
and no time
Close!
01:17
so anything you say I don't understand and just get bored
I might take some basic algebra next fall...maybe
@0celo7 I was not about to tell you more about it (unless you asked)
the fact that I don't know any analysis or algebra is sad
:(
can't do...most things
Relax! You aren't supposed to do most things!
ok, something is seriously bugging me about the work energy theorem
You're like 17
You only have to learn about like
what a logarithm is
01:21
@Slereah It's funny how you can find statements covering the whole range from "GR is a gauge theory" to "GR is very much like a gauge theory" to "GR is a bit like a gauge theory, but fundamentally different" to "GR is not a gauge theory"
suppose we have a spring pulling a block or something
and the block is going one direction
and the spring force eventually turns it around
but suppose the block is going in the same direction as the turned around block
at the same speed
the final velocity is the same in both cases?
is the time elapsed different?
@ACuriousMind : Physicists love to abuse the term gauge
Although to be fair
Physicists invented the term gauge
They can decide if they want :p
@0celo7 Uh, can you describe a bit more in detail what "the block is going in the same direction as the turned around block" is supposed to mean?
this problem, specifically
I'm pretty sure I know how to solve it
the issue is that the sign of $v_C$ doesn't matter, right
Is that a masturbation machine
3
01:24
that just doesn't sit well
@Slereah jesus christ...
@0celo7 Huh? How does it not matter? Is the end of that bar perfectly reflective, i.e. does the block just bounce off the left wall if it is going toward it?
@ACuriousMind it's infinite
"These equations are second order and quasilinear but not semilinear."
lol
@0celo7 It's literally written there it's 3 ft to the wall :D
But alright
01:26
Damn jargon
@ACuriousMind oh that one
uh it just stops
"Quasilinear function, a function that is both quasiconvex and quasiconcave"
>:|
I'm talking about the velocity when the spring is vertical
@Slereah trololo
"Quasilinear equation, a type of differential equation where the coefficient of the highest order derivative does not depend on the derivative of the unknown function"
Ah, there we go
@0celo7 Then there is only one allowed sign for $v_C$, no? If the block is going left, it just stops.
01:28
it stops either way
GR is indeed quasilinear
But the fuck is semilinear
@0celo7 Yeah, but the case of initial velocity to the left is, well, no motion at all as far as I understand it
block starts at C
"An equation is called semilinear if it consists of the sum of a well understood linear term plus a lower order nonlinear term. For elliptic and parabolic equations, the two effective possibilities for the linear term is to be either the fractional Laplacian or the fractional heat equation. "
wot
lool what paper is that
01:29
"Some equations which technically do not satisfy the definition above are still considered semilinear. "
Aaaaah
Help
What madness is this
@0celo7 Okay, still, what does "the sign doesn't matter" mean? If the block goes to the left, it just crashes into that wall. If the block goes right, it stretches the spring until it is stopped and then reverses direction, crashing into the wall.
Oh!
Do you mean it is unintuitive that the velocity with which it hits the wall is independent of the initial sign of the velocity?
YES
I know how to derive the theorem
It's in Arnold...and my assigned textbook
I agree with you it is somewhat unintuitive, but, well, it's the case - the only energy in that system is the initial kinetic energy and the tension of the spring, and both of these are independent of the sign of the velocity, so the final energy with which the block hits the wall is also independent of it.
This is why I always tell people not to trust their intuition
You're a god damn mathematician, you know that
Yes, I know :)
01:35
work energy theorem is proved on page 47 of Arnold
@dmckee ORNL got moved, they kicked me off of the bus going there
you need an ID to get on the bus to get in but you can't get an ID without going in -.-
Introductory mechanics at the sophomore level continues to have corners I hadn't fully appreciated. Taught myself something tonight and now I'm bouncy.
@0celo7 lolwat
@ACuriousMind indeed
@0celo7 Yeah, FNAL announced that they didn't want people showing up unannounced at the gate anymore last year. You are suppose to have contacted the user office at least two weeks in advance to arrange a temporary (just for getting to the badge office) pass. Or something.
@dmckee I'm not unannounced!
I got an email from the neutron user office asking where the hell I was at 9am
01:38
But are you announced the right way?
Perhaps you were quasi-announced, but not semi-announced
they didn't listen to their voice mail apparently, I called as soon as I figured out I wasn't going
OK. So get the neutron people to call the user office and complain. They are already on the inside so they can get some action more easily than you can.
got moved to tomorrow
tomorrow is a go because I'm going with a grad student
apparently if I had just driven up to the gate in a POV everything would have been fine
Otherwise I just recall a saying my dad use to use: "There are three ways to do anything: the right way, the wrong way and the navy way".
My brother is in a different service so he lists right, wrong and army ways.
01:40
@dmckee wasn't worth going the navy way
But it work the same in any sufficiently large organization.
right, my parents have 55 years in the service between them
I know what you're talking about
but the bus is run by the uni, not the labs
so the neutron people couldn't do anything
all it cost me was 2 hours of sleep
Ask a neutron person to drive you. Or at least to pick you up in town and take you the last mile.
@ACuriousMind heh
@dmckee I said I'm going with a grad student tomorrow
he didn't have access monday because his beam time starts tomorrow
Good.
01:43
apparently ORNL security is second only to Los Alamos
although it can't be too bad, I know there are foreign national researchers
So, does anyone want to talk about the work-energy theory and internal degrees of freedom?
Turns out it is not optional to include both internal KE and internal forces and I can show this clearly.
uh, ok
ffs why do they give weight when the problem needs mass
I was downvoted on the issue earlier today, so I've been thinking carefully. Trying to decide if I might be wrong (though that would mean Goldstein was wrong too).
@0celo7 To make sure you're awake and appreciate the difference.
That or they are engineers and believe in pounds-mass or something.
@dmckee they are the former
but that's an insult to engineers
I'm insulted
@0celo7 Uhm. OK?
01:48
hmm, @ACuriousMind, in that problem above, is the work due to the spring if the mass moves right by $s$ just $-\frac{1}{2}ks^2$...or do you have to take the angle into account somehow
@0celo7 ofc you have to take into acount the angle.
too hard I'm just bad at trig
and lazy
@dmckee so what about internal stuff?
Question: do you need to include forces internal to the system in computing the net work for the work-energy theorem?
dunno, never done a problem that required it
The answer is yes, and with two example problem I can show this.
01:53
still a freshman
and Arnold does not talk about such systems
@0celo7 You have a very strange mixture of preparation. You do know that, right?
so I'm doubly ignorant
@dmckee no?
what does that mean
@0celo7 You're working on "advanced" material, but haven't done the all the "basic" stuff yet.
Why doesn't google scholar shows the list of reference in the paper?
It's not a complaint and it is probably to your benefit, but I just assumed you'd be familiar with these problems.
01:55
I'm not familiar with advanced problems
Any, really.
Everything I know is introductory.
@0celo7 You're the Benjamin Button of physics students.
2
@HDE226868 Maybe?
The problem I just posed is first semester stuff. The students I teach the related material to wouldn't know a tensor if it bit them in the butt, and won't reach that level for a couple of years at a minimum.
tbh GR isn't nearly as hard as these damn spring problems
not first semester in my class
or in my mind
wouldn't know how to approach at all
Any way, step one is to roll a wheel down the hill (without slipping) and show by that means that the rotational kinetic energy must be accounted for in the W-E theorem. (This is all external forces; to wit gravity.)
Step two is to consider a rotating symmetric system which pulls some of it's mass closer to the center causing a speed up and change in rotational KE. (These are all internal forces.)

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