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16:00
@Slereah What does that even mean?
@0celo7 That's Darboux' theorem which Arnold proves a few sections later.
You don't have a notion of addition or multiplication
Well a vector space is constructed over a field
@ACuriousMind Ok
I don't know what's wrong with me
@Danu is right that a few month ago I knew all of this
@0celo7 <3
University makes you stupid
don't you know?
16:01
Seriously though, my questions are becoming retarded
@0celo7 : maybe stop licking the lead paint
Memory: Bags of "Sugar of Lead" in my grandfather's farming shed...
so delicious
@Slereah made me smile at least
Great in coffee or wine
16:02
sigh
dunno what to do
maybe you should start at the basics
Let's start with
numbers
do u know your numbers
Well there is 1
There are probably other numbers
Aaand...it's official chat session everyone!
16:04
Hi
Woo
@ACuriousMind has the quality of my questions directed at you declined
Does someone have the desire to talk about "renaming homework" or other recent meta posts, or do we continue to fool around as usual?
Fool around
I have some bball to play...nice chat session y'all
Teach 0celo7 high school math
16:05
Even sounds odd... hmm, I'm suspecting no real chat today?
I think home work policy should be renamed to something else
Can I get some support for being a terrible idea?
@0celo7 During the last two hours, yes, but not in general. :P
@Danu ::hands over support::
Its misleading
is much better
16:06
@ACuriousMind Really?
@Danu Still a meta tag
Yes or specific problems
@ACuriousMind So is
That's pretty bad because I'm just getting confused by everything lately.
@Danu Not sure we need the tag at all, but @Qmechanic seems convinced of its usefulness.
16:07
So from your PoV I've always been confused by everything. Great.
Bait attempt: Ah, Garrett Lisi had a nicely cryptic remark about the emergence of triality from E8?
@ACuriousMind I am too.
@0celo7 Proof: Clear
Hans d Vries, you exist, welcome!
(Leeb's favorite sentence to write on the blackboard)
hey Hans de Vries
sigh
16:09
I remember reading some answer of yours years back.
@ACuriousMind Damnit you caught me
Hans, I really liked some of those figures and ideas you did some time ago. Nicely different take and emphasis.
@Danu You think the tag is useful when we close like 90% of things tagged with it?
I've spent the last week trying to think of a tag better then homework and failed.
exercise and derivation
@JohnRennie what about..
16:10
@TerryBollinger Has he fixed all the wrong claims he made about E8 and its representations before he did that? :P
MY SUGGESTION
Much as I don't like the homework and exercises tag I can't think of a better one.
@JohnRennie
@ACuriousMind Probably not! The comment was super-cryptic in any case.
The homework part is the only problem.
16:11
also derivations
aren't straight up derivations off topic?
@Danu I foresee a user asking about push-ups or other gym stuff under that tag
@ACuriousMind lol
@Danu I suspect means little to most newbies.
@ACuriousMind ...you betta be kidding
@JohnRennie ...what?
What do you call those things in school?
@Danu Boring ;)
16:12
@JohnRennie btw to format tags write [tag:tagname]
@Danu Ah yes.
@ACuriousMind Ba-dum-tsssssss
@HansdeVries, would you like to join in? I think pretty much any kind of comment is welcome here... well, at least at first... :)
I think exercises is a universally known word.
just don't ask about math
16:13
Also homework should be a synonymized tag
@ACuriousMind so symplectic manifolds are not symplectic spaces. Ok, I understand that. Are they symplectic spaces locally?
also when the homework tag is used an alarm goes off
Part of the problem is we haven't established precisely what we're trying to achieve by closing questions.
It seems to me there are two aims:
Aren't sympletic manifolds just regular manifolds with a 2-form
discourage future asking of such questions
16:14
1. stop people cheating
Are there any manifolds that cannot be sympletic
@Slereah Non-vanishing top degree form generated by a 2-form
2. stop the top answerers getting fed up and leaving
@Slereah Yes, odd-dimensional ones, for one.
Hm, weird
how do you do hamiltonian mechanics in those cases?
16:15
And no one tag covers both aims
@JohnRennie I think I really don't care whether people are trying to cheat with a question or not because we have no way to control that aspect of asking a question here, anyway.
@Slereah The cotangent bundle is always even-dimensional.
You do Hamiltonian mechanics "on the cotangent bundle".
Vector spaces? Manifolds? Eh? Not getting even the topic.
I knew that!
@Danu oh right
16:17
Also related:
@Danu I knew that!
Contact form redirects here. For a web email form, see Form_(web)#Form-to-email_scripts. In mathematics, contact geometry is the study of a geometric structure on smooth manifolds given by a hyperplane distribution in the tangent bundle and specified by a one-form, both of which satisfy a 'maximum non-degeneracy' condition called 'complete non-integrability'. From the Frobenius theorem, one recognizes the condition as the opposite of the condition that the distribution be determined by a codimension one foliation on the manifold ('complete integrability'). Contact geometry is in many ways an odd...
Odd-dimensional analog for symplectic geometry apparently.
@ACuriousMind if I see someone posting a question straight of their example sheet it annoys me intensely. It's lazy and selfish of them to expect other people to do their work for them.
Arnold talks about that in the appendix.
@Danu : Yeah I remember that
Because it is used in
GEOMETROTHERMODYNAMICS
The worst theory name
16:18
And that's the main reason I instantly flag to close such questions.
Because I think it makes this site a worse place.
@JohnRennie It's lazy and selfish if they post it straight out of the exercises of the book they're self-studying, too.
@ACuriousMind Agreed
@ACuriousMind wow
But if someone is self studying they've chosen to attempt the question
@JohnRennie So it's not the cheating, it's the lack of effort.
16:19
It's not as if they are being graded on it, they are doing it because they are self motivated
I think that our community is mature/self-regulating enough at the moment that we don't have to have super-rigorous rules on what is/is not homework/off-topic.
I know that this is not a popular opinion
How can it be lack of effort if someone is self studying?
In fact I think you have identitifed an important point.
@JohnRennie really?
If someone is self studying I would like to do all i can to help them
I disagree
16:21
because I regard it as a very worthwhile thing to do.
@JohnRennie Because they just post the question with no indication where they're stuck, or what their question about it is other than "Someone show me how to solve this". If they ask a good conceptual question about a step and show their effort, then it doesn't matter to me whether the question came from an exercise sheet or a self-study.
Self study is hard - a lot harder than doing a course at university
It's not our task to encourage people and be "good guys" just because the asker has good intentions.
@Danu appaprently
And we cannot differentiate between the two things, anyway. There is no reliable way to decide whether a question is asked in exercise or self-study, and questions should be judged not on what we know about the asker, but on their content.
16:22
@Danu in life in general (not just in this site) I think it is a good thing to enourage people and be a good guy
@0celo7 You wanna have this discussion about offending you aagain? :P
So why should that not be true here?
@JohnRennie Not if that involves solving their problems for them.
@ACuriousMind can you please answer my question about symplectic manifolds being locally a symplectic space
@ACuriousMind Another good reason why it's pointless to try to encourage self-studiers from homework people.
16:23
@Danu Right, but my view would be I should explain how they can solve their problems, then they can do the next problem themselves.
@ACuriousMind it's a judgement call. I think it's usually obvious when someone is really interested and when they just want their problem sheet completed for them.
@JohnRennie But what we're judging is the person asking the question, not the question.
@Danu you being you does not offend me
doesn't mean I like you being you
That's completely contrary to the idea of what a Q&A site is supposed to be.
@0celo7 Okay---it seems that it does at times.
@ACuriousMind a site is what the majority of its members want it to be.
16:25
Mathematical terminology question: Is there a common name for the class of expanded matrices that use only 1's and 0's to represent e.g. the Pauli and Dirac spin matrices? (This is not a homework question... :)
me objecting to things you say is not being offended
I want this site to be interesting and useful,
Completely agree with @ACuriousMind's point , @JohnRennie
I just feel that you're being too much of a nice guy, in some sense.
16:26
but as someone who does self studying...I'd be (more) dead in the water without this chat
I think a symplectic manifold just has symplectic spaces as tangent spaces?
Or something
so the chat serves the homework and exercises purpose
at least for me
In chat, everybody can ask whatever they like
Can we
we don't have to answer it in either case :P
16:26
Even illegal things
Are questions ever illegal?
I doubt that an isolated question can be illegal
You could ask for drugs
user54412
@yuggib Ah, yes. When I see stars I think of the algebraic dual. I keep forgetting about including the topology.
@JohnRennie Well, agreed. More precisely then: Answering the questions of individual people I want to help instead of answering questions I think are good questions is not my idea of what this site is supposed to be
@Slereah Is just "asking for drugs" without any physical action illegal anywhere? I'm not sure.
16:27
@Slereah Is drugs physics?
I'm pretty sure, in fact, that if you ask a police man: "Hey, can I have some heroin?" They couldn't charge you for that.
@Aniket Physics is a drug.
@0celo7 Well...they are locally an open subset of a symplectic space, but not a symplectic space.
@ACuriousMind that's what I meant
@Danu Everybody in this site is then asking for it. Oops do I hear the police coming?
@Aniket It is more chemistry :p
Let's go to the chemistry chat and ask for drugs
16:30
@ACuriousMind I'm a believer in democracy, and I'll go along with what everyone else wants. But would you stop me answering questions like:
2
Q: What does it mean for shear modulus to be less than bulk modulus?

Mohak SaxenaIt is known that Shear Modulus is generally less than Young's modulus for most materials. What does this mean? Does this mean that it is easier to change shape of a fixed body by applying force than stretching or compressing it? Please explain and thanks in advance

@Danu What if you ask the cop to kill someone or ask a judge to accept a bribe?
@Qmechanic Hey dude are you somewhere
@0celo7 I'm not sure if a policeman could charge you for asking him: "Hey, can you murder that dude over there?"
He'd (1) not believe you (2) not be believed by anyone :P
soliciting a hitman?
probably a crime somewhere
Keep in mind that it has to be isolated---you're not handing him any money or anything.
16:31
@JohnRennie No, I wouldn't close that question. What have I said that sounded as if I would?
what if you ask "is X religious figure Y" in some theocracy where Y is heinous
This could always be a bad joke.
@Slereah Chemists are quite insensitive. They wont give you what you want.
I'm sure you can ask them how to make drugs but you have to use
THE LINGUO
I was pretty bad at chemistry
Oh god all the nomenclature
@JohnRennie what makes you think any of the above discussion applies to this question?
16:32
I hated it so much
chemistry is just physics
so you hate physics
@Slereah Is your IUPAC name?
got a 99 on the second physics exam
wrote down the wrong friction coefficient
ffs
@Ocelo7 why do you claim chemistry is physics?
Then there should be two Nobel prizes for physics only?
@Aniket electron shell physics
@Danu that's a beginners explanation, far below the usual level of this site, but in this case I think it helped encourage the OP and help them to understand physics better.
yes,one for physics and one for electron shell physics :)
So it was a worth while answer.
The point is that some (not all) homework questions are like this.
16:35
@JohnRennie We were discussing homework-type questions
This is not that
@Slereah I like the guy screaming "What's an experiment?" in terror :D
@ACuriousMind You made it mathematics all the way :))
@ACuriousMind : That guy is me
What is an experiment D:
where are the engineers
why does no one like engineers
@0celo7 Increasing the GDP :P
16:38
@Slereah I like the social scientist! psst....Does he belong to this site?
@Slereah Which engineering branch???:P
@ACuriousMind that made my day <3
@Aniket mechanical, most likely
ironically the most employable
we should have ACM appreciation day
Let us make him our new god
he has reduced the average confusion in this chat by 73%
16:42
@Ocelo7 Seems he is a multi-branched engineer.
user54412
@Danu I kind of agree with you. I think math/physics/engineering types tend to overanalyze things by half. They construct these complicated frameworks and then delude themselves into thinking the world must match their way of thinking.
what about chemists
or are they lumped in with the physicists
@0celo7 what about chemists?
I was a chemist!
> math/physics/engineering types
A colloid scientist.
16:44
where are the chemists there
@JohnRennie I used a colloid suspension in the lab the other day! I think!
@0celo7 in the pub!
@0celo7 I use a colloidal suspension every day - on my breakfast cereal :-)
nerd trivia
@JohnRennie Suspended silica particles for .04$\mu\mathrm{m}$ polishing
Why is everybody talking chemistry and maths and engineering in a chat on PhySE?
Nothing Physics to talk about?
@Aniket we aren't really talking chemistry
Engineering: probably the only useful application of math and physics
Chemistry: physics
16:47
anyhow colloid science is 50% physics ...
Let's talk about physics!
Math: uh, pretty useless, you're right
Anybody knows things about continuous spin representations?
@JohnRennie Remaining 50%????
@Slereah Yeah, they're useless :P
user54412
@Slereah huh?
@Aniket Ok, I admit the remain 50% is chemistry :-)
is that like spin in 2+1 dimensions?
@ACuriousMind Explain pls
ELI5
@0celo7 : Well there are finite dimensional representations of the Lorentz group
And infinite dimensional ones
16:49
@0celo7 Look up Wigner's classification. They're the Lorentz reps that don't occur in physics, essentially
I think CSR are objects that transform under those?
not German high school
@JohnRennie How does one manage to mix physics and chemistry into 1 topic?
@ACuriousMind We've talked about this...
@ACuriousMind : Do you happen to know what kind of object transform under this?
16:50
Seriously, what is wrong with my memory
Physical chemistry is the study of macroscopic, atomic, subatomic, and particulate phenomena in chemical systems in terms of laws and concepts of physics. It applies the principles, practices and concepts of physics such as motion, energy, force, time, thermodynamics, quantum chemistry, statistical mechanics and dynamics, equilibrium. Physical chemistry, in contrast to chemical physics, is predominantly (but not always) a macroscopic or supra-molecular science, as the majority of the principles on which physical chemistry was founded are concepts related to the bulk rather than on molecular/atomic...
@JohnRennie You made it too general. Physical chemistry is pure 100% physics. I don't know why the nomenclature includes chemistry.
Chemistry is physics.
Why is there an argument about this?
Everything is physics
All zero/one, pure connection matrices to represent spin etc? Not a trick question, just wondering if anyone knows what they are called... must go very shortly...
16:52
@Slereah No physical object transforms in a continuous spin representation since they do not lead to consistent physical theories.
@Slereah Aha, the reductionist argument again!
Let's see, what have I done differently in college that I didn't do outside. I get 7+ hours of sleep every night. I get less than sober more often. There's a lot of weed.
@ACuriousMind : Any interesting papers on the topic?
Maybe I got a brain parasite from weed or something.
It is the devil's herb
16:53
Because I'm getting confused about stuff that a year ago I had mastered.
@0celo7 Really? I have to say my experience is that cannabis does not mix well with maths.
user54412
@JohnRennie I think I've discussed this before. I don't see what part of chemistry is not physical under that definition. I know my undergrad was in the minority in defining physical chemistry to be the study of electronic wavefunctions and QM.
@JohnRennie Exactly!
@0celo7 so stop smoking it!
Dude
One time!
16:54
I think that the differenciation of chemistry and physics is mostly historical
@Slereah Lets recreate history;P
TO THE TIME MACHINE!
user54412
@TerryBollinger I don't know of any name for such things.
@ACuriousMind ELI5
maybe I'll remember the reason
I know we've talked about this before
@Slereah Hm. Not really, I don't know what would be interesting about them. You construct the CSRs, observe they have negative norm states, infinite heat capacity of the vacuum or other ridiculous features, then you discard them.
16:56
@ChrisWhite Thanks Chris, I must have accidentally run over some people's cats when backing out of my cyber garage this week... :) Bye all!
Well what are the objects themselves, to start with
I guess they are neither scalars, spinors or tensors
@ChrisWhite the difference is in the motivation. A lot of physical chemists are closer to the chemical engineering end of the spectrum. Especially working in industry.
> negative norm states, infinite heat capacity of the vacuum or other ridiculous features, then you discard them
so that's why they're not in books?
> infinite heat capacity of the vacuum
why is that bad?
They are usually very briefly mentionned
Like "Because the Lorentz group isn't compact there's infinite dimensional representations"
I should just stop coming here
16:59
@0celo7 For that I'd have to dig up where I got that from and look how they defined heat capacity, but I imagine it leads to us being unable to excite the vacuum into any state with finite energy.
being reminded of all this stuff that I've just forgotten is terrible
I don't know what's happening

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