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4:00 PM
@Shing Yes, but then classical mechanics is already not, in and of itself, deterministic, see this question about Norton's dome.
Also, your definition is not good for quantum mechanics, since the velocity $v$ or indeed such a thing as $x(t)$ (at least as a number) does not really exist.
And if you take the expectation values, then Ehrenfest's theorem essentially tells you it's the same as in classical mechanics.
 
So... why is $\mathbb Q\subset \mathbb R $ not an embedded Lie subgroup?
I want to mumble "something something topology" but I don't really get it.
 
@Danu Since when is $\mathbb{Q}$ a Lie group?
It can't be an embedded Lie subgroup because it isn't Lie to begin with
 
@ACuriousMind Additive?
 
@Danu It's not a manifold.
 
@ACuriousMind Isn't any countable group with the discrete topology fine?
yeah, countable groups with discrete topology are 0-dimensional Lie groups
 
4:11 PM
@Danu ...okay, I'll grant the 0-dimensional case
 
are you using a def. of manifold that excludes them?
 
@Danu No, I just wasn't looking out for 0-dimensional manifolds :D
 
@DanielSank : because the detection event involves the interaction between a photon wavefunction and an electron wavefunction which together result in the localisation of the former akin to an optical Fourier transform. Please ask a question for a more detailed answer with references.
 
In any case, my lecture notes have $\mathbb Z\subset \mathbb R$ is a Lie subgroup, but $\mathbb Q $ isn't. I don't really understand why.
It must have something to do with the denseness (a topological problem)
 
@DanielSank Ask a question and supply details and I'll answer to the best of my ability.
 
4:13 PM
But I don't see why we cannot construct a topological embedding
 
@Danu I think it has to do with the smoothness
 
@JohnDuffield Dude, I'm not asking for this explanation because I don't understand it. I'm asking because you seem to think you understand everything with some magical clarity not enjoyed by everyone else around here and I want to understand what you think you understand.
 
@ACuriousMind But $\mathbb Z$...
 
Because the preimage of open sets is trivially open, the map can't fail to be continuous, so the failure must be in the smooth structre
 
^that was what I was running into too :\
 
4:14 PM
@Danu Well, the denseness is the issue, but the failure is not purely topological
 
discrete topology is too nice :P
 
@JohnDuffield Two slit interference fringes can be understood entirely from classical wave mechanics. We all know and agree about this, yes?
The two interesting details are:
 
@DanielSank lol
 
How is the frigging smooth structure defined on a point anyway.
 
1) The appearance of single dots at low intensity.
 
4:16 PM
@ACuriousMind Not too sure :P
The notes are not that detailed... the 0-D case is typically not in the focus haha
 
@Danu Wait, why is that funny?
 
@DanielSank back2basicz
 
@Danu void back2basicz(howSmartYouThinkYouAre)
 
@ACuriousMind The charts are trivial
 
@DanielSank : I've been considering that I'm wrong for at least ten years. I remember staning in front of the mirror saying what you thought you knew is wrong. Since then I've done a lot of reading, and find that some physics which is considered to be common knowledge flatly contradicts "Einstein and the evidence".
 
4:18 PM
I think like... everything is smooth on them
 
@Danu: What is your precise definition of a "Lie subgroup"? There are several definitions floating around
 
@ACuriousMind embedded Lie subgroups is what I'm talking about
 
@JohnDuffield Great, then we're in similar positions.
 
Embedded submnf+Lie group
 
Now, might I ask why you keep referring to Einstein?
 
4:19 PM
@DanielSank Because Einstein
 
@JohnDuffield I should say up front that I have zero tolerance for anything resembling appeal to authority in scientific discussions.
Well, not "zero tolerance" but really I just give zero fucks.
 
@DanielSank dis gon' be gud
 
@DanielSank : Dude, just ask the question. If you'd like to insert your understanding in there, fine.
 
@Danu Ah. The inclusion is not a homeomorphism onto its image
 
@JohnDuffield Unfortunately the two questions I want to ask you are both off-topic on the main site.
 
4:21 PM
@ACuriousMind ...because $\mathbb Q$ is not closed as a subset?
@DanielSank this should be @JohnDuffield
 
@Danu No...one moment please
@Danu: The subset $\mathbb{Q} - \{r\}$ for any $r\in \mathbb{Q}$ is not closed in the subsace topology of $\mathbb{Q}\in\mathbb{R}$ - it is dense (because you can get arbitarily close to any rational with rationals), so the subspace topology $\mathbb{Q}\subset\mathbb{R}$ is not discrete, so the inclusion of the discrete $\mathbb{Q}$ into $\mathbb{R}$ is not a homeomorphism.
 
@JohnDuffield
1) Why do you think quantum computing is "pseudoscience"?
2) why do you, John Duffield personally, think that interactions are enough to explain the so-called "measurement problem" in quantum mechanics? Are you referring to decoherence mechanisms by which the density matrix of a subsystem diagonalizes in the basis of the interaction term?
Unfortunately, if I ask question 1 on the main site it would be closed immediately.
 
@ACuriousMind Really now? Sigh... I considered this
 
If I were to ask question 2, it would probably be a duplicate of a dozen similar crappy questions with incomplete crappy answers.
 
but rejected it for a reason which now seems silly
I somehow thought we can always squeeze an open interval between rationals :P
deep sigh
 
4:27 PM
@Danu Get out of here, mathematicians.
 
@Danu Yes, you can, but that open interval will contain rationals :P
 
Go squeeze your open sets elsewhere.
 
@DanielSank Get out of here, soul-less quanta!
 
@Danu Eh?
 
@ACuriousMind Lol
@DanielSank Ya know, sell-out and all that jazz ;D
 
4:27 PM
@DanielSank I was so curious what two questions you might want to ask me :|
 
@DanielSank : "Einstein and the evidence" is just shorthand for bona-fide peer reviewed papers and robust scientific evidence/observation. If you're at odds with that you ought to have a good reason why. Saying my textbook says different is just some other appeal to authority.
 
@ACuriousMind I have two questions 1) are your socks matching
Ok I really only have 1
 
@DanielSank What do you think about the decoherence stuff? I find it rather convincing
 
@JohnDuffield If you review the chat log far enough back you will find that I have repeatedly voiced my opinion that appeal to textbook is just another version of appeal to authority.
I believe my exact words were "Textbooks are not God" or some such thing.
@JohnDuffield Anyway, I don't understand your insistence that we stick to evidence and peer reviewed work as I don't think I've given you any reason to believe that I disagree with that (obvious) standard for scientific discussion.
 
Oh my god! Nielsen and Chuang smells exactly like BBS!!
 
4:31 PM
@Danu It's very convincing, but it doesn't solve the measurement problem.
Holy crap, 5 starred comments at once. What's the record?
 
One does not simply solve the measurement problem.
 
@DanielSank Over 20 in a row, I think.
 
@DanielSank I think we've had a single person dominate the whole starred list, so ~9 at least, I think
 
@Danu What the crap? Who did that?
 
I had 8/10 once (in a legit way)
@DanielSank people starring 1 side of an argument
 
4:33 PM
@Danu Nice!
 
the PO vs. PSE debate caused this some times
I did some of the unstarring in those cases
 
@Danu Wazzat?
 
@DanielSank oh come on!
 
@Danu wut?
 
Remember KyleKanos having fights with this one other guy in chat regularly?
 
4:34 PM
@Danu Uh, no.
Don't care.
Forget I asked.
 
www.physicsoverflow.org
People who disliked the PSE system, left the site and occasionally returned here to have heated debates
 
@Danu ok.
 
> Throughout this book 'z' is pronounced 'zed'.
 
@0celo7 Lol! Which book?
 
What?
 
4:36 PM
@0celo7 That's the best part of that book.
 
There's no character limit on answers, right?
 
Nielsen and Chuang.
 
@ACuriousMind Don't think so (I was pushing it with my GR answer haha)
 
@DanielSank You don't like it at all?
 
@DanielSank : I don't insist we stick to it, I insist that we don't dismiss it. Now you'll have to excuse me, I have to go. Meanwhile ask your questions on the main site, I really don't think anybody will close sincere serious questions from a professional physicist. And while we're at it, why don't you ask a big question? One you'd really like to know the answer to? We could do with more of them on this site. I'm not saying you'll get an answer, but it could be interesting.
 
4:37 PM
@0celo7 It's ok for the basics. It gives a good introduction to how quantum algorithms work. I recommend you read it until you start to get bored with all the details of how e.g. Shor's algorithm works.
@0celo7 Note that it's painfully out of date with respect to how error correction works. The schemes discussed within are considered barbarically inefficient.
 
Ok
 
@JohnDuffield Have a good day.
 
@ACuriousMind It's 30,000 characters. I've only hit it once, and I write long answers.
 
@HDE226868 Hm...this post has a lot of TeX. If I run into it, I will be angry, because I wanted to be explicit for once.
 
@ACuriousMind You'll most likely be fine.
My answer that hit it was on Skeptics, and I had a lot of quotes in there.
This is what 30,000 characters looks like. LaTeX is dense, but you'd have to have a really dense answer to hit the cap.
 
4:53 PM
@ACuriousMind Which post?
The Q&A?
 
@ACuriousMind This query shows that people seldom come near the cap. The 30,000+ ones are slight errors, I think.
 
um...... if I can't read latex in this h bar, is it my computer's problem, or same for everyone?
 
Did you enable ChatJax?
 
$$\text{Test}$$
Works for me. I think you just need to enable it.
 
^^
 
5:03 PM
Thanks, Ocelo. I am looking it up
 
Top right of your screen.
 
@HDE226868 Neat.
 
@Danu I forget where I got it from. I know I didn't write it.
 
Time to watch some Lion King :3
Needda catch up on a bit of sleep :)
 
Haha Diracpaul!
Jul 13 at 21:06, by ACuriousMind
This user's answers just...baffle me
 
vzn
6:04 PM
@JohnDuffield which "physics considered to be common knowledge flatly contradicts "Einstein and the evidence"."?
 
@vzn Hawking radiation.
 
vzn
@DanielSank have you heard of dyakonov? there is indeed a lot of "hype" in the area of qm computing... but this is not to disparage any of the many excellent scientists working in it.
 
Hey yall
 
Hello
 
@0celo7 hows college going?
 
6:08 PM
homework
 
Yeah I feel that. Hw sucks
But if u like the material it can be fun
Depends on the prof
 
Uh there is no way to make projectile motion interesting.
 
vzn
@0celo7 BBS=?
 
Isnt that a string theory book?
 
@vzn Becker, Becker, Schwarz
@StanShunpike yes
 
vzn
6:12 PM
@0celo7 (a bit afraid to ask here, aka "fools rushing in where angels fear to tread") duffield is interested in hawking radiation? as anomalous or contradicting some kind of established physics theory?
 
@vzn I'm saying that's one of the answers he would give.
 
vzn
@0celo7 am only a bit surprised at reconciling his unusual assertions with his 2.7K physics rep.
 
@Slereah eyy, the Frenchie
 
Hey @StanShunpike haven't seen you in a bit!
 
@NeuroFuzzy I know! Super busy!
Trying to figure out my majors
I think i am gonna do comp sci and econ
Hbu? Whats new with u?
 
6:23 PM
Wait...aren't you at a super expensive private school?
 
@vzn Oh, yeah, DWave.
Their PR does tend to give the field a bad name. It's a shame.
 
@StanShunpike ^^ I've had my majors decided for me, because I waited too long to declare a math double major hehe
but I will still round out my abstract algebra and real analysis courses.
 
::looks at schedule::
How the hell can anyone do a double major??
 
@0celo7 how many classes per quarter?
 
I'm taking 18 hours every semester but would need like 20 more math credits!
(Except for the first semester, I'm taking 16 now.)
 
6:27 PM
@0celo7 oh, okay, that's significant. Idk, I took 16, 20, and 18 this last year (we do it by quarters) and also four summer courses
 
I'm considering doing summer school this summer so I can move up abstract algebra.
 
vzn
@DanielSank dwave, shmdwave. guilty as charged but they cannot be blamed for all the hype. "for a wild time..." try reading 1 of dyakonovs papers (of the 2 wild ones cited). and consider his credentials. do you ever read aaronsons blog? aaronson luvs him :P
 
Jordin Sparks looks a lot older than 22.
 
Many classes overlap so its okay to double major. And then we have quarters so I get more classes per year
More classes means easier to get a lot of credits
 
6:46 PM
@vzn I only mentioned DWave because the link you posted lead to an article about them...
 
7:20 PM
@DanielSank I finally got to see her again today :3
 
7:39 PM
@skillpatrol 9/12 is the first game agains Oklahoma
ordering my ticket now
 
8:03 PM
@ACuriousMind The link you provided, I don't quite understand how it won't violates newton's 1st law at [3]? This kind of analysis seems to me exactly the kind of physics needs rigor mathematics (for t at the neighborhood of T). Would you mind sharing your thoughts on it?
http://www.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/Goodies/Dome/
But it does seem we can't find a t such that [3] violate newton's 1st law.
 
8:37 PM
@Shing Well, it very much depends on what exactly you mean by "Newton's first law", but it doesn't violate the law that a body upon which no forces act has zero acceleration.
 
@ACuriousMind Do ghosts violate the first law?
 
user54412
Will there ever be a point in my life where I'm not embarrassed by how little content my CV has?
 
It's better than mine!
 
8:54 PM
@0celo7 wat
 
@ACuriousMind Do paranormal beings violate the first law!?
@ACuriousMind Deus Ex series is on Steam sale...do you recommend?
 
@0celo7 Never got into the first one, but Human Revolution Director's Cut was very good.
 
@ACuriousMind It says here you have it.
 
@0celo7 That does not contradict my statement.
 
But you spent money on it!
 
9:06 PM
@0celo7 Yes, and I played it a bit, and decided it was a bit too old and clunky to really enjoy it.
 
I see.
@ACuriousMind Is it worth $6.59 to just get the whole bundle? Revolution itself is $3.99.
 
@0celo7 Can't really say, but I would retrospectively say no. Don't know about the other two games in there, though
 
Damn, why did people hate The Fall so much?
45 on Metacritic.
It's a mobile game.
@ACuriousMind Did you finish your 30,000 character answer?
 
@0celo7 I was interrupted by something else. Nearly finished
 
@ACuriousMind Alright, I'll get HR and save my $2.59 for the next crazy sale.
 
9:36 PM
@Danu 'sgood
 
9:52 PM
What is the difference between and supposed to be?
In slightly related news, I have misplaced that link to the synonym voting page again - that should really be easier to find!
 
10:10 PM
Yup, that post is too smart for me.
 
vzn
@DanielSank it cites Dyakonov who is a mainstream scientist criticizing QM computation hype (outside of the obvious/ "easy target" Dwave marketing/ fanfare).
 
And I ain't got no time to figure it out because Mr. TA just posted homework. Yay.
 
10:39 PM
@0celo7 For what course?
 
@DanielSank Linear algebra.
Mr. TA is always LA because he's the only TA who insists on being called "Mr."
 
@0celo7 Linear algebra is insanely important.
 
user54412
There are people who insist on being called "Mr."?
 
Do you know about Fourier transforms being unitary rotations?
 
I guarantee this class does not cover that.
 
10:43 PM
@0celo7 Does it at least cover the spectral theorem?
Constrained maximization?
 
Wtf it's a first year class!
Spectral theorem is covered in the graduate level functional analysis course.
 
user54412
I'm siding with 0celo7 on this one -- I expect a first linear algebra class to cover the definition of a vector space, the idea of a basis, and how to compute determinants.
 
@0celo7 There's a finite-dimensional sprectal theorem that's far easier, and typically taught in linear algebra
 
@ChrisWhite We've covered two of those things already.
 
user54412
Maybe an eigenvalue problem too.
 
10:46 PM
@ACuriousMind Maybe in the second semester.
 
@0celo7 What!??!?!?!?
 
That's enough chatting. Back to literature land!
 
I learned the spectral theorem in my first year math class.
 
Well you're just too smart then.
I might get to it in my fifth year, if I take philosophy over the summer.
 
@0celo7 No, it was just a ridiculously awesome course.
 
10:51 PM
@0celo7 really though finite dim. spectral theorem is far easier and always taught in linear algebra and practically necessary for QM
 
@NeuroFuzzy Yeah, I'm not buying this idea that a university linalg course doesn't do spectral theorem.
 
I don't know what the exact syllabus is.
 
@0celo7 You know what a determinant really is, right?
 
@DanielSank actually you know what really annoyed me about my undergrad linear algebra course? It didn't cover the complex cases of anything! So I had to re-examine everything upon going to QM :(
 
It's the volume of the parallelipiped spanned by the image of the linear transformation acting on all of the unit basis vectors.
Don't forget that. It explains almost all of math.
 
user54412
10:53 PM
@DanielSank I know the spectral theorem from GR. I don't think I ever saw it in QM, and I know I never had it in linear algebra.
 
^^ That's a slight exaggeration.
@ChrisWhite How... is that possible?
 
@ChrisWhite GR spectral theorem?
 
@0celo7 Yeah, what does that even mean?
 
user54412
spectral theorem <-> equivalence principle
 
@DanielSank Well I thought it had to do with linear operators and multilinear totally antisymmetric forms. But that works too...
 
10:54 PM
@ChrisWhite To be fair, it was sort of a side note in my linear algebra course.
@0celo7 Right, but the only totally antisymmetric linear function of a set of N N-dimensional vectors is just the volume I mentioned.
 
Ok, what the fuck is with my roommate not turning of the lights in the bathroom!
 
@DanielSank So, I'm studying diff geo right now. Forms and that sort of thing, and that fact is totally necessary for understanding differential forms and change of variables and what-not... but what would you do if someone asks you, "prove that the determinant of a matrix is the volume of the parallelipiped spanned [...]"? Hehe I think this is in Rudin but I'm being lazy and asking you first
 
user54412
@DanielSank Well, I'd teach it if I was ever called upon to teach linear algebra. But that would be a strange sequence of events to happen.
 
@0celo7 Get used to people not having the same habits as you.
@ChrisWhite :-)
 
@ChrisWhite Where does that name come from?
The spectral one.
 
user54412
10:56 PM
@0celo7 ?
 
@ChrisWhite spectral theorem <-> equivalence principle
Why?
 
@NeuroFuzzy To be totally honest with you: I would go sit on the beach, close my eyes, and think really hard for about an hour. After that time, I would either have come up with a clear way of proving it using elementary matrices and/or induction, or I'd realize that I've forgotten all of that and give up, feeling hopelessly old.
 
Who calls it the spectral theorem?
@DanielSank Aha! You are old!
 
@DanielSank Darn.
 
@NeuroFuzzy Also, Mukres's book is awesome. I recommend it. I also strongly recommend Hubbard and Hubbard's book, though it may be too elementary for you at this stage.
 
user54412
10:57 PM
@0celo7 no one, but that's what it is -- we can find coordinates that diagonalize the metric (i.e. make it Minkowski)
 
@ChrisWhite Oh, ha! Good point.
 
@NeuroFuzzy Maybe use a volume integral and the fact that the Levi-Civita symbol is the volume measure?
 
Actually, @NeuroFuzzy I think this may be really obvious.
 
@ChrisWhite huh
 
The antisymmetry means that if the vectors are not linearly independent then the determinant is zero.
The linearity also means that if you double the length of a vector, the volume doubles.
Obviously the determinant of the identity matrix is 1.
Given any matrix, if the columns are linearly dependent, the determinant and volume are zero, so you're done.
If they're independent, apply elementary matrix transformations (like in Gaussian elimination) until you get a diagonal matrix. Now the determinant is the product of the diagonal elements, which is obviously the same as the volume.
Of course, you have to multiply by the determinants of the elementary transform matrices, but those are all either 1, -1, or exactly the scalar by which you scaled one of the rows of the matrix.
That proves it, I think.
Damn that was satisfying.
@0celo7 F*&$ you, buddy. I can still math!
Respect your elders, @0celo7!
 
11:02 PM
@DanielSank I never said old people can't math!
 
@0celo7 Er, oh. Good point.
@0celo7 Ewww, not really.
 
Lol
I don't think anyone here is.
 
@NeuroFuzzy?
 
He's in college.
 
@0celo7 I was trying to get his attention, since I answered his question.
 
11:04 PM
Ah.
For real, back to homework.
 
@DanielSank still thinking! The trouble would be doing the intuitive det(AB)=det(A)det(B) proof, and once that's done the rest follows!
 
@NeuroFuzzy Heh, well, my favorite book defines the determinant via its properties :-)
 
@0celo7 how do you mean the levi civita symbol is the volume measure?
 
Then it proves that the usual procedure we all learn satisfies those properties.
 
new terminology to me
 
11:13 PM
To prove that det(AB) = det(A) det(B) you can again use elementary matrices.
@NeuroFuzzy as shown here.
 
@DanielSank well I've done that a few times but it doesn't seem very satisfying
 
@NeuroFuzzy It might feel better if you spend a private moment convincing yourself that each of the three types of elementary matrices correspond to very simple geometrical transformations.
 
@0celo7 Oh, nevermind my early question, I see, w/ the volume form thing en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi-Civita_symbol#Determinants but whyyyyyy.
Well anyways thanks! I'll think about it. I should go run now. Seven days in a row, can't stop now ^^
 
@NeuroFuzzy Nice!
 
11:44 PM
@NeuroFuzzy whyyyyy what?
 
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