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00:24
It's too boring here when @ACuriousMind is not present.
01:20
Is this a check-my-work question?
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/176182/commutator-of-fermionic-operators
I think it's not, but I don't really understand what differentiates a check-my-work question from a "conceptual" question which happens to include some work by OP.
01:48
@DanielSank I agree, it doesn't seem to fit the "check my work" template that only 10k plus users have access to.
 
1 hour later…
02:56
@DanielSank I agree with you and @AlfredCentauri - it seems like a reasonable question
03:14
@santiago Indeed it does. What puzzles me is that similar questions get slammed for being "check my work" type, even though there isn't a qualitative difference. It's somewhat confusing.
 
2 hours later…
04:44
Has anyone ever heard of this thing called an Upper Contour Set and a Lower Contour Set?
04:59
0
Q: Planck Temperature

Jimmy360I have heard of two different things occurring at Planck Temperature: 1. A black hole forms 2. The quantum gravity takes over and the wavelength of light emitted from the object is Planck length Which is correct? Are both correct? Are neither correct?

Hey guys. I need help with answering this question regarding calculation of operator expectation values using path integrals. No one has answered the question yet and I have no way of promoting it due to my low points. Can anyone help with this? Thanks so much.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/173515/how-to-calculate-the-expectation-value-of-position-momentum-using-path-integrals?noredirect=1#comment367815_173515
@pyroscepter Out of curiosity, what was insufficient about the links ACuriousMind provided?
05:14
Umm, I don't fully understand how operator ordering is relevant to calculate the expectation values of any operator.
Tbh I'm not looking for much. If someone can provide a link or something to calculate expectation values of some standard operators, using any operator, that'd be enough to get me started.
Using any prescription *
Basically, the evaluation of the quantity <q|Omega|q'>, which I haven't been able to find anywhere at all.
05:56
Does anyone know of a high school physics competition that one can compete in as an individual?
 
2 hours later…
07:46
Funny post of the day:
0
A: Why does a human body only emit infra red radiation and not other types of electromagnetic radiation?

ShajanI guess just like LED which get its composition from Silicon, Phosphorus etc. human body is also created from earth and has in the body of all these components.In an excited state the LED emits photons and if human beings can attain the stage of exitement by Divine Will then the human body will r...

:D
 
3 hours later…
11:10
@DanielSank "check my work" is when the OP posts some kind of derivation, proof, logical argument, etc. and asks whether it is correct.
I don't see any request of the form "is this correct?" in the question you linked, so it's not a check-my-work question.
I should clarify though that asking whether a particular step in a derivation is correct is fine. Something like "I think I could do [...] next, but I'm not sure if it's valid because [...]" is an ideal question.
The check-my-work questions are those which don't identify a specific step and a specific conceptual issue that prevents the poster from proceeding beyond that step. In other words, "check all these steps to see if they're correct".
 
3 hours later…
14:15
0
Q: Drawing diagrams using iPhone 4s

SocreI am currently using stack exchange using my iPhone 4s and how can I upload a diagram to this site from camera roll?

 
1 hour later…
15:24
@Jimmy360 Too late, all contests this year are over.
15:40
@DavidZ That is something I did not know.
@ACuriousJim trisep.ca :D
@ACuriousJim Did you go there before?
It's for postdocs too.
 
2 hours later…
17:32
@Icosahedron Nope. I was going to go there, then I remembered I'm not interested in particle physics
But particles are fun
Maybe, I'm just not interested
Hmm
I suppose you're allowed
Ah, particles are these weird things that we have to talk about when we tell the experimentalists what to look for, right?
2
Don't cosmologists have to be in phase with the developments of particle physics?
17:34
Yes, and many are. I'll talk to those guys whenever my work needs me to
But I'm an inflationary cosmologist. I deal with the universe before elementary particles even existed. So I don't encounter the need to know about them that much
@ACuriousJim What institution are you affiliated with now?
@Icosahedron Now? None. Right now I'm completely unaffiliated
I'm in between institutions
Which ones in particular? (If it's ok to ask)
I was at York, I don't know what the next will be
I thought you were at Perimeter.
17:39
My supervisor was joint with perimeter, so I did some of my studying there
Have you been to CITA?
Yes, it's very nice. I know a few people that work there too
I was wandering around there a lot last year, I may have seen you without knowing it. :|
They had seminars 3 times a week most of the time.
I doubt it, I haven't been there often enough for there to be a statistically significant chance of us being there at the same time
I guess not.
17:42
Mostly I just email back and forth with the people who work there
18:04
Why do we not yet have the shiny new userpage? Are we not important enough?!
Well we're only #7 on QPD
Well...that's high, considering all beta sites and quite a lot of other sites already have it.
Yeah, PPCG has the new one
I've apparently "helped" over 300k people there
18:37
Why is it that I read the Caucus badge as Cactus badge?
hey, i just got the Good Answer badge
@ACuriousMind have you heard of this thing called an Upper Contour Set and a Lower Contour Set. It's some math concept but I haven't found a good book on it.
Wait, you don't read books. Never mind.
Hm, people are asking their physics HW questions at math.SE now:
1
Q: Solve for velocity, if acceleration is a function of velocity?

MeshachYes, this is a canned question, because canned questions are simply solvable to understand ideas. No, this is not homework. For simplicity, let's assign values. A given object weights 1000 kg, it only has one force acting on it, and that's friction: $F_{t} = -200*v(t)$. Let's say, after 5 sec...

Their physics tag says: "This tag is for questions in the field of mathematical physics"
...
@StanShunpike The Wikpedia article seems clear to me. There won't be a "book" on this, it's just one kind of sets you can define when you are handed a relation
@ACuriousMind Well if they are comfortable answering physics HW, let them.
@KyleKanos I'm certainly not gonna tell them to send them here :D
18:57
@ACuriousMind Exercise 11.2. Let $E,F$ be complex vector bundles over $M$. Show that $$\operatorname{Td}(E\oplus F)=\operatorname{Td}(E)\wedge \operatorname{Td}(F).$$
I don't know if I've recovered from yesterday's calculation enough to attempt to do this one.
Hm, people are asking their math HW questions at the h bar now
@0celo7 Well, I don't know that, either :P
You know what's cool? The -1/12 in the todd class is the same as in 1+2+3+... and in the Baker-Campell-Hausdorff formula.
td(E) = 1 + c1/2 + (c12+c2)/12 + c1c2/24 + (−c14 + 4c12c2 + c1c3 + 3c22 − c4)/720 + ...
and
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/7/4/1745019cba18be8f7b480694d4bd7c68.png
@StanShunpike Why do you need to know about contour sets?
@ACuriousMind Hah! The proof is trivial using the splitting principle!
"After years of studying the theorem, I came to the conclusion that it's in fact trivial."
19:04
Pontrjagin class. Sounds made up.
No one reasonable has that name.
Pontrjagin?
Yes
I know weirder names in science
@0celo7 Wiki gives the transliteration as Pontryagin
19:06
@ACuriousMind Too late, already Wiki'd.
Ahead of the curve this time!
Here are some of my related notes of relevance for physics:
How is that at all relevant to physics?
@0celo7 Fourier transform?
That's certainly quite physical
Everyone uses that
How does that help me do physics
How are toilets of relevance for women? Everyone uses that!
19:09
Hence, it is relevant to physics, isn't it?
Answering a question early in the morning and not getting any upvotes is sorta depressing
It's of particular interest to physicists because it gives context for why exp(ipx) are "eigenfunctions" of momentum, and why this fact is induced by space tranlations being modeled via + on R.
Pointriagin duality says you don't need R^n, necessarily.
@NikolajK Huh?
What do you mean "you don't need R^n"
19:15
In mathematics, specifically in harmonic analysis and the theory of topological groups, Pontryagin duality explains the general properties of the Fourier transform on locally compact groups, such as R, the circle, or finite cyclic groups. The Pontryagin duality theorem itself states that locally compact groups identify naturally with their bidual. The subject is named after Lev Semenovich Pontryagin who laid down the foundations for the theory of locally compact abelian groups and their duality during his early mathematical works in 1934. Pontryagin's treatment relied on the group being second...
the pic was intended to suggest that
@ACuriousMind Do you get what this is about?
The Pointryagin class, on the other hand, finds itself on the string level of this tower of structure classification problems
(right column, third from above)
Hey, I know some of those words!
@ACuriousMind thanks, that's all I wanted to verify. Grazie amico
@0celo7 Yes. Nikolaj is saying Fourier transformation does not need the real numbers, and neither does the conjugate relationship between position and momentum
19:19
@ACuriousMind What does that even mean though?
@0celo7 Complex numbers are okay
@KyleKanos But $\mathbb{R}\subset\mathbb{C}$
@0celo7 Uh...that, in principle, you can imagine position and momentum-like quantities on any (locally compact) abelian group?
@ACuriousMind Which implies?
19:20
@0celo7 econ professor mentioned it. And math chat ignores me. You guys are more helpful even when its slightly off topic
And that the structure of that duality is really not about any specific quality of the numbers
@0celo7 And?
@KyleKanos TBH I have no clue what point you were trying to make
@0celo7 What more does it have to imply? It is always a good thing to know precisely which structures are responsible for the relations you get.
I was just pointing out that "momentum space" doesn't have to be something dual to $[\infty,\infty]$.
19:22
(For one, so that you may generalize to any other such structure)
@0celo7 I make points when I sharpen pencils
The subject closer to algebraic quantum field theory which also has it's generalized Fourier transform is
In mathematics, the Gelfand representation in functional analysis (named after I. M. Gelfand) has two related meanings: a way of representing commutative Banach algebras as algebras of continuous functions; the fact that for commutative C*-algebras, this representation is an isometric isomorphism. In the former case, one may regard the Gelfand representation as a far-reaching generalization of the Fourier transform of an integrable function. In the latter case, the Gelfand-Naimark representation theorem is one avenue in the development of spectral theory for normal operators, and generalizes the...
@NikolajK what does "dual to $[\infty,\infty]$ mean"?
R
R^n as some some infinite space
what does "dual" mean in this context
I don't understand half of the words in that picture...
it's an induced structure
do you know normal subgroups?
just as an example
I know of them, let me refresh my memory
if G is the set defining a group with multiplication , you may consider subsets H of G and define a multiplication · on the power set of G, such that e.g. if g is in G, then {g}·H is the set of elements of the form gh, where h is in H.
H is a normal subgroup of G if $ghg^{-1}\in H$?
@NikolajK That's just a coset, right?
19:28
right
I'm not really out for normal subgroups here, all this is just an example to show how one group induces another group. In the above case, (G,*) induces "(P(G),·)"
The dual group is the set of functions from G to U(1) ... those happen to form a group for topological groups.
@0celo7 what have you been studying lately?
U(1) has represententations exp(ip(g)t), and so are indexed by p(g), and you're already close to all ingrediences for Fourier transforms.
In that sense, G=R^n, isn't required, only some topological features to get nice maps to U(1)
So how do we do the integral?
I've always seen it as $\int_\mathbb{R}$
@0celo7 Haar measure.
@ACuriousMind ::sigh:: Do I need to know this? I'm doing too much googling here.
I thought I didn't have to learn measure theory
19:32
you learn it in courses on Lie group theory, or Riemann geometry (although physics departments don't have the latter, usually)
@StanShunpike Math
btw. Grothendieck was working and working on the non-commutative theory of all this
In mathematics, Tannaka–Krein duality theory concerns the interaction of a compact topological group and its category of linear representations. It is a natural extension of Pontryagin duality, between compact and discrete commutative topological groups, to groups that are compact but noncommutative. The theory is named for two men, the Soviet mathematician Mark Grigorievich Krein, and the Japanese Tadao Tannaka. In contrast to the case of commutative groups considered by Lev Pontryagin, the notion dual to a noncommutative compact group is not a group, but a category Π(G) with some addition...
okay, good day
19:49
@0celo7 hey, I found another book you can add to your reading list
@NeuroFuzzy D:
"Finite Generalized Quadrangles"
wtf
by Payne and Thas
why do I need to know that?
19:50
Heheh um, I don't know. First triangles, then quadrangles, then GR I guess? :P
What the hell is this...
Did someone tell you to read this?
@NeuroFuzzy Unleash the crackpot! ;)
No, it's lying on the library table and I found the title hilarious. but I guess it's a generalized/abstract notion of a polygon?
ctrl+F physics
0 results
Nope
I want that book just to keep it on my shelf though. For people who walk by and happen to glance at it.
20:00
"The reader should verify that $p(E\oplus F)=p(E)\wedge p(F)$" F*ck off, Nakahara.
I had joy in my life before this book.
@0celo7 Then you should stop reading it :D
Joy in life is worth more than an understanding of bundles :P
2
@ACuriousMind My joy will come when I can understand string theory. This is a hurdle I must overcome.
@KyleKanos That's really...old.
@0celo7 I doubt that.
20:04
@Icosahedron Which part?
@0celo7 Oh, you're in for a disappointment, I fear
D:
You ppl hate me
@0celo7 True, but it's Robertson
@0celo7 I didn't know it was in parts.
@KyleKanos I wondered if it's the Robertson.
20:05
It is
@Icosahedron string theory vs. hurdle
@KyleKanos Understood then.
@0celo7 uh, first one.
@Icosahedron You're probably right
Doesn't mean two more weeks of pain won't be worth finishing this book
How long have you been reading it?
does no one else find the title "finite generalized quadrangles" great??
20:09
3 (?) weeks
I'm 3/4 done I think.
457/583
@NeuroFuzzy I chuckled a little ;)
@KyleKanos Random chapter on automorphisms?
@ACuriousMind Linear algebra question: how many independent eigenvalues does an antisymmetric real matrix have?
@NeuroFuzzy Don't get all excited over linear algebra
@0celo7 It doesn't seem to be numbered.
20:14
@Icosahedron What doesn't seem to be numbered?
Who knows?
:|
@0celo7 $n/2$, I believe
@ACuriousMind If odd dimensional? $(n-1)/2$?
@0celo7 Yes. You get positive-negative pairs and a zero in the odd-dimensional case
@ACuriousMind Yay
20:17
I'd say do a random example in Mathematica to confirm
(proof by example)
re, btw.
@NikolajK No need - a matrix and its transpose have the same eigenvalues, so antisymmetric matrices must have positive-negative pairs of eigenvalues.
@ACuriousMind Also, the trace is zero.
I'm pretty sure we don't need to prove that by example: )
@0celo7 That would constrain only one eigenvalue to be the negative sum of all others
@ACuriousMind Yes, the last one if odd dimensional.
@ACuriousMind that's not $(n+1)/2$? Take a 3x3 antisym. Then it will have that positive/negative pair and a zero.
20:20
@NeuroFuzzy Yes, but the zero value isn't independent - you know it's zero.
I don't have an algebra mind now, but I believe you
2 by 2 and 3 by 3 antisymmetric matrices only have one independent eigenvalue
Oh. Nevermind.
and by "I believe you", I mean: "I don't give a s ...Schurs lemma"
@0celo7 I don't know about that, nakahara seems to be a great book.
I can't wait to start it.
20:23
Sure buddy ;)
It's loads of fun
@ACuriousMind Have you thought of anything regarding the sphere map homotopy thingie?
@0celo7 What, you mean a nice way to show that that $g_n$ is the right map? No, I haven't (and didn't really try, other things to do).
@ACuriousMind: Let's play a game
@ACuriousMind: Come up with a polynomial with natural number coeffients, say at least 3 non-zero coeffients, and not more than 10 so we don't spam this chat. An example would be $2 + 4 X + 6 X^2 + 9 X^3 + 7 X^4 + X^5 + 3 X^6$.
but don't tell me it
if it looks random, it's cooler
@ACuriousMind :(
20:29
So...what am I going to tell you so that you figure it out? (Don't say 10 points on its curve :P)
lol
10 derivatives at a point
Ah, well, both wouldn't be enough if I choose ten non-consecutive coefficient, which isn't forbidden, as far as I can see
But for it to be a game, I have to be briefly (or not-so-briefly) puzzled why it works ;)
@ACuriousMind: Mhm, what is the value of the polynomial at X=1?
Oh, the degree can be greater than 10?
it can be anything
1000 if you will, but then we can't post it here
20:32
Well my 10 derivatives comment is really dumb then (I was thinking Taylor series)
@0celo7: Do the same, think one up and tell me it's value at X=1
@NikolajK 0
@NikolajK 359
@ACuriousMind: I said don't come up with some degenerate shit, that's not funny
also, reminder, the coefficients are natural numbers
@NikolajK Huh, it's not degenerate, it's a fine polynomial
It just happens to have a zero at 1
20:35
then your polynomial is p(X)=0
....
@NikolajK No
tadaa
@NikolajK Do you even Algebra 1?
But 1 seems to be its only integer root
20:36
you guys have bad reading comprehension
I didn't design it to have that, I just wrote down a bunch of numbers
natural numbers
...
yes, my reading comprehension is bad
Sorry :(
@NikolajK This is a really bad joke.
I read that as "integers"
20:37
@0celo7: What is?
What don't you like about 359
I like it
Unlike Mr. QFT, I know what a natural number is :P
but I wait for @ACuriousMind
@NikolajK "you guys"
20:38
@NikolajK Okay, I have 28 now
@0celo7 I deserved that, I guess^^
@ACuriousMind <3
well okay. You guys tell me the value of your polynomial at those respective numbers, i.e. X=359 0celo7 and X=28 for ACurious
Shit. Overflow.
@NikolajK 364118239663258607803
$3 + 2 X + 14 X^3 + 7 X^6$
20:41
One term of order higher than 10 is missing, but perhaps I didn't understand your "no more than ten", either :P
Anyway, with just two points, that's...interesting :)
I feel as if I should know what happened there, though^^
@ACuriousMind:I'm not gonna type that out :P
$3 + 2 X + 14 X^3 + 7 X^6 + 2 X^14$
@0celo7 You can click on the number an then copy it
@NikolajK Well...that's correct
I guess having a polynomial $p(x)\sim x^{550}+\cdots$ was not a good idea
@ACuriousMind Won't fit in chat!
yeah, I said under ten coefficients, but meant under ten orders
20:44
I asked that...
not that it matters, except for how long my laptop needs
You want to try it with mine?
it can be for the "trick", but I don't go up to 550 for the program
it's a 3-linear in Mathematica btw., but a recursive one, so it takes time
@ACuriousMind I can't click and copy. How do I copy numbers from the image?
You always need only two inputs?
20:46
yeah in any case, the Magic is over. Not sure if you were a good audience, but k :)
yes
the historically significant trick is older than the formal concept of algorithms, by some weeks ;)
it runs agains intuition, right? polynomial of some order needs input at least as many as the zeros!?
@NikolajK Yes, it runs totally against intuition
Then again - you need that many inputs to determine the complex version, so maybe (apparently), only one of all the polynomials running through these two points has natural coefficients
And it needs to have something to do with the second input being the sum of the coefficients.
that's a tautology :D
wanna know the answer and bigger picture?
Of course!
Bigger picture first
Do you know Gödels proof of the incompletness of axiomatizations of arithmetic?
Only in the "vague sense". All statements are numbered and you end up with assigning a number to a statement that says the statement with that number is false...at least something like that, right?
20:55
yeah, eventually it's culminating in a variant of "this sentence is true but ACourious mind is the only one who can't consistently agree with it"
You find a sort of cockblock sentence which negates the derivation capabilities of a subject (you, formal logic, whatever)
As you say, the crucial part is to make the subject able to express that
you encode symbols in numbers, and you further encode sentences in numbers, which are just strings of symbols
then numbers express logical statements of numbers and you hit with the hammer
now
@ACuriousMind $$\int_M e(M)=\chi(M)$$ My mind just melted.
a key theorem in the proof is how to actually encode sequences of numbers in arithmetic
Here comes Gödel famous beta-function:
β(x1, x2, x3) = remainder(x1, 1 + (x3 + 1) · x2)
The β Lemma: For any sequence of natural numbers (k0, k_1, …, k_n), there are natural numbers b and c such that, for every i ≤ n, β(b, c, i) = k_i.
say whaaat
the tl;dr version of how it relates to the game is that you can encode ininite countable information in just a bunch of numbers

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