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17:01
are A and B functions of p?
If so, then no; it has infinitely many possible solutions?! if they are constant, then it is not well-defined to begin with, I am afraid
Honestly, I don't know what to say about that
Assume that I have this particular solution to K.G equation: $\phi(\vec x,t)=Ae^{-ipx}+Be^{+ipx}$ where p and x are in four vector notation.
Now for the general one I have:

$\Phi(x^\mu)=\frac{1}{(2\pi)^3}(Ae^{-ipx}+Be^{+ipx})d^3p$

Now I want to find the values of A and B, so I try to normalize the expression:

$\int \Phi(x^\mu)*\Phi(x)d^3x=1$

When substituting Phi* and Phi* I used p and p', so the integral will have d^3p'd^3pd^3x.

Assuming everything I wrong is correct. How would you proceed? My aim here is to get the $\frac{1}{2E}$ term
So this is where I stand
I don't have MathJax atm, so it is not possible for me to decipher that, sorry. Perhaps someone else can help
I think is best to make a thread for this, cuz I am not going nowhere for hours now
17:05
but I told you today already that the $E$ term is due to the mass-shell condition
you want a Lorentz invariant measure
That I understand
But as you can see
my calculations initiate from the wave function solution
and I want to reach the fourier decomposition in QM, not QFT
which means instead of the ladder operators, you have complex numbers a and a*
I don't get what you want. But yes, you can solve the classical KG equation
and write down the general solution
but why do you want to normalize?
because
trick to explain but I will try
In what I wrote above, you did notice how I expressed the general solution
oh wait you don't have MathJax
I will post a pic
This is how I start
with a very general expression of the decomposition
It's really just a choice of normalization. The expansion always holds, it's just about absorbing that term into the modes or not
If you substitute the expression for $\phi$ in the integral, you will have an expression followed by d^3p' d^3p d^3x
I believe, that one should be able, through pure calculation
reach the following point
17:15
(and of course what Tobias said about invariance)
While the way is different
namely here, we start with integration in spacetime d^4x\delta(...)\theta()
the end result must be possible from both angles
The reason why I am trying, what I am, is because I am starting from the wave function solution and then leveling up to this point. While in here and in many texts, we start from the fourier decomposition
It's the same idea; the first expansion is manifestly invariant; that's actually the way we prove that the measure with energy is invariant
of the solution. And in no instance is made clear how that expression, which contains 1/2E was EVER derived
then you follow the wrong resources
this should be explained in any reasonable text
...
Tobias entering ACM mode
17:18
like L& L
who clearly do not derive the decomposition from the wavefunction solution of the eq.
I don't know L&L; I just know that in any basic course this should be derived
I believe that I gave a comprehensive explanation as to what the issue is here and why in no book I see the solution to my problem
@TobiasFünke the fourier decomposition?
and I honestly do not understand why you spent hours with this instead of checking 1-2 notes and going through the relevant computation step by step
@TobiasFünke I mean,.....
ok
@Feynmate Please help me out :d I am no expert in relativistic QFT. But this should be derived in any intro course, no?
At least we did it in ours
and now after checking two books this was done there, too (although this are math books)
17:21
You derived the decomposition starting from a particular solution, i.e wave fuction?
I mean how the Lorentz invariant measure comes into play
that comes into play
@TobiasFünke I'm a little tired so I'm not sure I'm any more helpful in this condition, but it would help me to really understand what's the problem with the normalization
@TobiasFünke This?
if you START with decomposition in spacetime
@Feynmate at least this is what I understood
17:22
Ok, I will make it as clear as I possibly can
Well, if you are in a relativistic setting, you expect that the nornalization of states does not change with Lorentz transformations, so that's where the invariant measure comes into play
In the field expansion the energy factor is only there because of a normalization choice
Really, there is no reason in principle other than normalization, nothing to derive. The field is a function and you perform a Fourier expansion, then proceed to "divide" the Fourier transform into positive and negative modes, right?
16 mins ago, by imbAF
user image
I am working on posting soemthing. So by reading it, you'll be able to judge whether what I am trying to do is even possible or not. Because exchanging messages hasn't been working for the past 5 hours
I have just come into the discussion, so you could at least try to listen to someone who's trying to help you
This is the expansion. Understood, $A$ and $B$ are $A_\vec{p}$ and $B_\vec{p}$, functions of momentum
Ok, but when I wrote them down I didn;t think of them as functions of momenta
I mean, I have to argue for it, no?
Then your integral is badly divergent
17:31
correct
So how do you argue the momentum dependency ?
No, you don't those coefficients are just the Fourier transforms of the field
Nothing to argue
So, when you have the K.G equation and you consider a wave function solution
you write
$\phi=A(\vec p)e^{ipx}$ ?
$\Phi(\vec{x},0)=\int\frac{d^3\vec{p}}{(2\pi)^3}\tilde{\Phi}(p)e^{i\vec{p}\cdot\vec{x}}$
That's the first step
Ok, so that is the first mistake in what I wrote
I only have A or B
This is the Fourier transform, we haven't split into modes yet
17:35
Ok
that is the generalized solution ?
could you say that?
since you are integrating over momenta
Again, I'm just Fourier transforming a field T_T
I know that. I am asking if it is wrong to consider it as the general solution to the equation
But ok
Then what do we do, to avoid the divergence ?
A FT is a FT, not a priori any solution
ok
Now we use the fact that the field satisfies the KG equation and write the equation in momentum space i.e. the FT EoM
17:39
hmm
$[\partial^2/\partial t^2+ \omega^2_\vec{p}]\tilde{\Phi}(p)=0$
Do you recognize this equation?
atm I don't
FT of eom
That a HO EoM
With frequency $\omega_p$
Ok, I recall the equation
imbAF, since you speak german (?), you can check the book "Tutorium Quantenfeldtheorie"...perhaps it helps
17:41
I am not sure how you got here
@TobiasFünke muss kaufen
most German universities have contracts with Springer; it should be possible to get a PDF for free, at least with high probability ;)
anyway, I won't bother you guys anymore. see you later
*Oh no they are speaking a foreign language, I must say something to sound like I know what they are talking about. Come on, Feynmate, chill out. They won't notice a thing.*

Guten morgen
@TobiasFünke TOBIAAAAAAAAAS T_T
I know that you can write in momentum space $(\partial^2_t + p^2+m^2)\phi$
so $\vec p^2+m^2=E^2$
right?
So, how do we continue ?
Now, for a QHO you know that $\tilde{\Phi}(p)=\frac{1}{\sqrt{2\omega_p}}(a_p+a^\dagger_p)$
I'm just writing the analogue of $\hat{x}\propto(a+a^\dagger)$ from QM, using the oscillators of our problem, $\tilde{\Phi}$
yes \phi plays the role of \vec x
17:50
And of course, the respective annihilations/creations are labeled by the $p$ of the mode
Got this?
meaning $a(\vec p), a(\vec p)^\dagger$
?
Just like $\tilde{\Phi}(p)$ plays the role of $x$, they play the roles of $a$ and $a^\dagger$
But of course you have a different mode for each $p$, so you label them with $p$
yes
Okay, finally, we use the EoM of creation and annihilation of each mode, which are the same as QM
First replace this in the FT
9 mins ago, by Feynmate
Now, for a QHO you know that $\tilde{\Phi}(p)=\frac{1}{\sqrt{2\omega_p}}(a_p+a^\dagger_p)$
I am not sure I am following
17:58
Just put that equation into the FT
this one $\tilde{\Phi}(p)=\frac{1}{\sqrt{2\omega_p}}(a_p+a^\dagger_p)$ ?
in $\Phi(\vec{x},0)=\int\frac{d^3\vec{p}}{(2\pi)^3}\tilde{\Phi}(p)e^{i\vec{p}\cdot\vec{x}}$ ?
Indeed
Ok
Then we want to write $\Phi(x,t)$, the one before was at zero. The time dependence is of course encoded in the coefficients, so we only have to write $a\to a(t)$
with the subscript \vec p i assume
but ok
18:01
$\Phi(\vec{x},t)=\int\frac{d^3\vec{p}}{(2\pi)^3}\frac{1}{\sqrt{2\omega_p}}(a_p(t)+a^\dagger_p(t))e^{i\vec{p}\cdot\vec{x}}$
I see
But one thing only. You have root of 2omega
I have seen notations where it;s simply 1/2\omega
For the field?
That happens in other cases
The field expansion usually has this normalization
here
oh, this is another case
so you have other expression ?
@imbAF This is not a stationary state, the stationary state solutions are $e^{ipx}$, 10.6 of L&L vol 4, they are normalized as in 10.16.
Because the $p = (E,\mathbf{p})$ in this is only constrained to satisfy $p^2 = m^2$, the $E$ is not independent it depends on $\mathbf{p}$, so the stationary states are indexed by $\mathbf{p}$, however the sign of $E$ is also independent so we sum over the signs of it as well, and the general Fourier expansion as a sum over all possible stationary states is then 11.1.
You can then re-interpret the stationary states of this equation as describing a system of two 'species' of particles as explained after 11.1, where both species are described by the same equation in the same system, and interpret them as anti-particles
@imbAF You can do that, it just changes the coefficient of the modes
18:13
The sign of the energy term in the exponential is just telling you whether the associated quantum field operator is going to be describing particles or anti-particles, as explained below 11.1
Ok so it is vol 4 10.6 until 11,1
I was naïve into thinking that going as I went
one could get the same result
but of course, I ended up dealing with an integral that diverges
(12.1 then discusses the more natural case where there is only one species of particles, which is what people would probably guess is going on at first)
Just read section 10, 11,12, skim 1 and 2, especially the last paragraphs of 2 for more on the sign of the exponential
18:31
@Feynmate hehe
18:54
Is there a generalization of the Moyal equation $\dot W= \{\{H,W\}\}$ ?
We can go Schrödinger equation $\rightarrow$ LvN equation $\rightarrow$ (Wigner transform to) $\rightarrow$ Moyal equation $\rightarrow$ ?

Now we are in phase space and practically made a full circle from the Hamilton's equation that are in phase space back to QM that is again in phase space. Did people feel the need to generalize further or is this practically it? The full circle?
I presume that it is (as always) possible to go even to greater generalizations and abstractions
19:53
@User198 it's not clear what you mean by a "generalization" here
20:21
When we considered the canonical quantization of the real scalar field, one of the requirement was that the following commutation relations should be valid:

$[\phi(x),\Pi(y)]_{x_0=y_0}=i\delta^{(3)}(\vec x- \vec y)$
$[\phi(x),\phi(y)]_{x_0=y_0}=0$
$[\Pi(x),\Pi(y)]_{x_0=y_0}=0$

These were just given, no explanation how we arrive here, or why this is necessary or even what it means to consider the commutation of two field operators. At least in QM, the commutator was a way to tell if the physical quantities could be measured at the same time, or if the operators had a joint basis. But here
if you understand why we do $[x,p] = \mathrm{i}$, you understand this. It's just the field version of the Poisson brackets turned into commutators.
I understand the consequence of it in QM (not how we come about it), but in QFT is there an interpretation
I don't know how often I can say that the operators are still operators like in QM
so yes, operators that commute still have joint eigenbases and still can be measured simultaneously (if they're observables) etc.
Ok but $\phi$ is an operator and it assigns an operator value at any spacetime point. So that is not an observable
At least that is what I believe
or suspect
I don't know what you're trying to say. An observable is a self-adjoint operator, my caveat is merely because e.g. a complex field has $\phi \neq \phi^\dagger$ and so is not self-adjoint.
20:30
Ok, I'll be blunt. I don't know what evaluating $\phi(x)$ at a spacetime point should mean? Or should be? Is it a scalar, a complex value
I don't know
(At the physical level of rigor), the quantum field is simply an operator-valued function. That is, for each $x$, $\phi(x)$ is an operator.
Ah, ok
And what would $\langle 0| \phi(x)|0 \rangle$ be?
Like what is meant with the expectation value of an operator-valued function?
Is there some physical significance to it ?
I'm not sure where the problem is. $\phi(x)$ is an operator for fixed $x$. So that's the expectation value of the operator $\phi(x)$ in the state $\lvert 0\rangle$.
But isn't it different evaluating $\phi(x)$ at some point x^mu and calculating the VEV at some point x^\mu ?
The physical significance depends on what the physics significance of the field is to begin with. If it's the electric field $\vec E(x)$, the meaning should be rather obvious. If it's the Higgs field, it's less so :P
20:34
They are the same thing?
@imbAF of course it's different. $\phi(x)$ is an operator, the VEV is a number.
expectation values of operators are numbers, again, it's just QM
@ACuriousMind Yes but you say:
by "that"
you mean what?
I have no idea what you mean. Which 'that' are you referring to? Which message?
@ACuriousMind This one
"that" refers to your $\langle 0\vert \phi(x)\rvert 0\rangle$
20:38
Ok, but you did say that the physical significance of VEV depends on the field
i.e $\vec E(x)$ it would be the electric field strength at that point
if I am not wrong
I mean, it depends just like the significance of the expectation value of an operator in ordinary QM depends on the significance of the operator
there's literally no difference
Yes, but of course I am assuming a case, where such a thing is possible
In QM i am not considering an operator, that doesn't represent a physical quantity
that ofc wouldn't make sense to talk about
you could
no one forbids you to e.g. talk about the expectation value of the self-adjoint operator $x+p$
20:40
But because QFT is more abstract, and QM is like a reference point, I tried to give a meaning to expectation value of the field operator.
it's rarely useful, but the formalism allows it perfectly fine
x+p ?
I have never encountered that
@imbAF Roughly speaking, QFT is just QM with some additional postulates/an additional structure, namely to make QM compatible with SR
what physical quantity would that be? sum of position and momentum O.o
@imbAF it was meant as an example
20:42
@imbAF my entire point is that that is an example of a self-adjoint operator that usually has no physical meaning
yet it is formally an observable, and the formalism of QM allows you to talk about its expectation values, eigenvectors, etc.
but for whom you can find an expectation value. I see
Ok I didn't know that
there's not really anything to "know" here. If you understand how QM works, you can understand that all those notions formally make sense for any operator
but yeah, when I talk about significance of expectation values, I, ofc am cosidering something measurable, standard to say so,
@ACuriousMind True, but I make a distinction in QFT when it comes to operators. Namely, you can have all sorts of operators, who might represent a physical quantity i.e Hamilton operator in QFT or not, and field operators. This distinction doesn't exist in QM
I don't know if it is right to do
Or if it makes sense to do so
I have no idea what this "distinction" is supposed to be
I just gave you an example from plain QM of an operator without obvious physical significance
the difference is only that QFT forces you to perhaps consider such operators a little more often
It is because, in my view, field operators, generate excitations of the field
And i consider them unique in that regard
20:46
we're just back at the point where I tell you to stop looking for direct physical meaning for every intermediate expression that may appear somewhere
the VEV of a scalar field is a really pointless example anyway because it will always be zero or a constant that you then set to zero by some tricks
Ok, if I were to ask you what is the difference between the hamilton operator and field operator in QFT, for some theory, how would you word the distinction or difference between the two?
I don't understand the question. What's the difference between the Hamiltonian and position or momentum?
Hi all
I made some progress in understanding my resesrch :)
If I were to classify operators, as caring meaning, i.e representing a physical quantity, then they do not differ in that regard.
If you were to list an operator, who represents no physical quantity, I would point that as a distinction between the two
I would suggest you stop trying to classify operators that way, at least at the beginning. The meaning of the operators becomes clear as you see what they are used for in the formalism
20:49
@Allie nice :) you want/are allowed to share a bit?
@ACuriousMind Then should I for the moment disregard their "meaning"?
at least in the sense you seem to use the term, yes :P
@TobiasFünke sure!
You know what OFDFT is?
Is it because it's faulty ?
What is the issue with that?
imbAF: The Hamiltonian is the Hamiltonian. The field is the field. The latter are used, for multiple reasons, to build observables, as the Hamiltonian. Roughly: The fields are the "building blocks" in QFT
20:50
I am curious to know
DFT but not kohn sham basicallyb
@Allie only superficially
yeah
@imbAF it's just not useful
So you would need a functional that is solely of density
KS ofc uses orbitals to get the non-interacting KE
@ACuriousMind Can you elaborate ?
20:51
you are so far away from seeing how the entire actual machinery of QFT works that it's impossible to tell you the meaning of anything in it; you have to learn QFT to understand QFT
@ACuriousMind And that would mean, a pure mathematical approach?
So one way to do OFDFT is to try to get approximations for the non-interacting Kohn-Sham KE
T_s[n] + Hartree[n] + XC[n] is ir total energy functional
That T_s would usually be the sum of the KEs of the KS orbitals right
@imbAF I think one of the only ways to learn QFT at least conceptually is to learn 2nd quantisation from L&L 3, and then follow L&L 4 to learn about the quantisation of the electromagnetic fields, Klein-Gordon fields, and then the Dirac fields. Ultimately, one has to make the leap that Pauli made in 1934 (which is eluded to in L&L 4) regarding the iterpretation of $j_\mu$.
@imbAF not exactly; but you are stuck at "what does the VEV of a field mean" when it will become perfectly evident what it means once you learn that a) only non-scalar field have non-zero VEVs anyway and b) non-zero scalar VEVs lead to symmetry breaking
but to understand the significance of that you have to learn all the steps in-between
@Allie yes, I am listening :) I understand so far.
20:54
There is not much more conceptually to rel QFT compared to non-rel QFT. One has a field operator, that obeys certain field equations. In the non-rel case, that field equation is the Schrodinger equation, in the rel case, it is the Klein-Gordon, Dirac etc field equations
Okay, and so obviously getting T_s[n] is difficult just from n
The only difference is that one has both these positive and negative modes in the field expansion
@DIRAC1930 Well, this is only partially true. Relativistic QFT is more complicated; for example, due to the lack of a well-defined position basis
@Allie yes
So one way you might think about it
However this is resolved by interpreting the coefficients correctly (as eluded to in L&L 4)
20:56
Is take the von Weiszaker functional
You aware of that is?
@ACuriousMind The two things that you listed, I believe I don't understand them. But I want to. So idk, just reading different books and notations, will make me reach the point of understanding this? It feels like you need 1.0 across every BA physics, to be able to understand.
@Allie yes
@TobiasFünke Okay then just use momentum basis in non-rel QFT
@Allie I assume you mean Weizsäcker ;P
It basicallt is the KE of a system of bosons with, of course, wave function sqrt(n(r)/N)
20:57
@DIRAC1930 His way of treating 2nd Qunatization is messy or difficult to understand. But I get your point
He was a nazi ill spell his god damn name wrong if i want
@imbAF Follow a different source so you can at least follow the latter pages
You probably only need the "one-particle" operators
Anyways, so you can actually break up T_s[n] into T_vw[n] + V_P(r), where that v_P is the so called Pauli potential. It basically is the potential that will recreate the fermion system
So that you dont get KE of bosons you get KE of fermions
@DIRAC1930 It's just the time constrain I have.
@imbAF I understand, I didn't have any time to do any of this when I was first learning QFT
21:00
So my research is all about trying to find (approximations of) v_P
@imbAF my two cents: get one or two sources, study them step by step. You should be fine
@Allie interesting
@DIRAC1930 I need to create time for 2nd quantization
The way Im looking at it is very different though
Im looking at it in terms of the so called exact elevtron factorization
Analogous to the nuclear electron factorization
ah
yes
interesting! :)
@imbAF I have no idea what grades have to do with it, but yes, my position is that a lot of QFT becomes only clear in retrospect, once you have seen it at least once in its entirety until you arrive at the practical computation of scattering amplitudes for QED at least and then can appreciate different setups and approaches for it
21:01
I am sure I will read some day a paper of you!
But instead you factor the N electron wf into a one electron wf and an N-1 electron wf that depends on what the one electron coord os
Maybe lol
interesting
And it gives a really interesting new way of viewing the Pauli potential
and regarding OFDFT: is it somewhat related with RDMFT?
because you could get the kinetic energy from the 1RDM
@Allie this is a horrible argument; do you really want to potentially confuse some guy named Weiszaker with a Nazi? :P
21:02
In the view of the EEF the pauli potential is not the correction from a boson system to a fermion system, but its a potential that actually captures the effects of the N-1 electrons around
@ACuriousMind Well at least is good to know that If I keep blasting my head against the wall, one day I'll see the other side..hopefully. ACM I am banking a lot of trust at Weingand, when i start in Mars.
@Allie hmmh interesting
Im really not sure, it honestly could be &tobias
So for example whaat i learned today is
In the view of the EEF, one of those terms in the Pauli potential is actually a correction to the one electron KE that accounts for the fact that if the environment (N-1 electron wf) needs to move in order for you to move the one electron, then there’s a “resistance” to movement
So the more the N-1 wf changes wrt changes in the 1 electron coordinate, the more reisstance you see, and that part of the potential is directly proportional to that resistanxe
You define the change in the N-1 electron wf by the fubini-study metric
21:07
do you have a nice reference, by chance?
I think I want to learn more about the basics of OFDFT
Yes!
OFDFT or EEF?
One day i will be as smart as u tobias
21:10
thank you, much appreciated! I'll have a look tomorrow
@Allie haha, I bet you are much smarter already
Uhhh idk about that. Im still going through griffiths electrodynamics lolol
I hate ED lol
Really
I dont mind it so far
I am not good at it, no.
Not my favorite thing but
21:12
Yes, it is for sure interesting!
I need to just catch up on my physics knowledge
I basicallt started learning physics like a year ago at this point
I have so much i need to cover and want to cover before i start my phd
Today I dreamed that I met a former colleague, who recently got his PhD, and now he is offered, a few months after graduation, a professorship in NYC lol
@Allie yeah, you will do. You will also learn on the fly :) no worries
you will be fine
I wass about to say ong thats awesome
And then i read “I dreamed”
xd
weird dream

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