i mean like as a rule my point of view is just that im gonna be sympathetic to someone who got sent to jail for doing something that isnt actually wrong
@EricSilva And mine is that I disagree with the very concept of incarceration, irrespective of the deed that placed a person there. The goal should be to minimize future harm to society while trying to enable those people to participate as much as possible in society.
@G.Bergeron i mean i agree in an abstract sense but i think that within the framework of society as it is the idea of the carceral system is inextricable from it so there's really no working around it unless like, eeeeverything changes
@0celo7 there's a spectrum here, at the end of the day someone who like, actively tries to harm people has to be dealt with because they're a risk to other people
@EricSilva Yes but we should strive to make incarceration more about preventing future harm to society while still maintaining participation of the individual to society
@EricSilva Dealt with, yes, punished, no. This current system is degenerate, if you'd ask me. Nobody cares, though, as people with a voice has never been in that system as when you have everybody will say, ''well, this is a CRIMINAL speaking!!!''
@0celo7 Haha! Joker card for you! The point is that after it happened, figuratively beating up the guy serves no purpose except calming the angry crowd.
i mean this is like an entirely different question right? the justice system doesnt exist to prevent crime it exists to organize it and deal with it after the fact
@Semiclassical Yes, yes you're right. But I feel it is barbarous to use deterrence like that. ''Making an example'', comes at the cost of figuratively beating up the guy. He's still someone. And at the end of the day, I think we are effectively not free of will in that physics still determines what you do in a sense. So you are blaming what exactly, the system (person) that harmed you? You were never told it's stupid to get pissed at things?
if we know that 1. most recidivists dont wanna go back to jail, 2. recidivists are well aware of the possibility of going back to jail, then we have to confront the possibility that there's some systematic factor that's making it hard for them to avoid it on their own
i guess what i was trying to say that the rates of recidivism are so high we have to account for the very real possibility that at least part of it is not the fault of recidivists, and rather systematized
So all in all, what I'm saying is yeah, shit happens and we want to deal with it. But blaming the guy and torturing him brings nothing back except maybe as a deterrent to others which as I said, I find barbarous anyhow.
as in it's difficult to break out of the patterns of criminal behavior on your own because of material factors that have to do with being excons @0celo7
like as in, your status as an ex-con makes it harder to avoid criminal behavior to survive
@0celo7 Ideally, you try to find out the odds of him going at him again and from there establish a way to bring those odds in your favour while offering him as much as possible in ways of participating to society. This does not preclude incarceration, but it changes the whole ordeal.
i think we have a situation where the carceral system creates a new kind of criminal, or maybe it's better to say that being incarcerated sometimes pushes people toward engaging in a new kind of criminality, just because they've been incarcerated, and that seems kind of weird
@G.Bergeron So...if he says he's really sorry a bunch he gets a slap on the wrist? If some psychologist believes he won't reoffend he just goes free? I don't get what you're suggesting
@EricSilva I'm switching to violent crime here because I want to probe @G.Bergeron more
@0celo7 If you're employing for a children monitor, you might want to exclude pedophiles of the short list, yes. But, for instance, at my high school, there was a janitor who used fake IDs to get the job. He was a hired killer. Everybody went crazy when he was unmasked.
id hesitate to fantasize about some other system of dealing with criminality because i think my opinion is somewhere along the lines of "the carceral system is bad in fundamental ways that you cant just reform away, but also you cant get rid of the carceral system without changing everything about society"
Regardless of whether the prison system should exist (and I'd land firmly on the yes-it-should side) I find it pretty hard to believe that it should be as large as it is.
@Semiclassical i mean in a sense that the system of incarceration is so bound up with the development of like... how do i put this the enlightenment-inspired-state that it's confusing to extricate it from that
@G.Bergeron eh...not sure that makes it better. It means that they were someone who could choose murder not for emotional reasons but for 'logical' ones
I mean, I don't see a person who has violent delusions due to mental illness as being morally responsible for that. But I also wouldn't feel safe around them.
@G.Bergeron this simply can't work unless in the future some new science is able to figure out if they are really harmless or not based on some probability of whether or not they will commit crimes again. if you've seen the anime psycho pass then something like that.
@EricSilva well it's a lot different from other animes. people who don't watch anime but would love cowboy bebop say they "don't watch anime" when I recommend it to them.
