The h Bar

12:31 AM

Guys, how would you describe the following term: Earth mass monopole and multipoles.... Is the monopole related to the non-spherical geometry of the Earth?

Secret

5:55 AM

[Random] High school level question asked at graduate level: What is energy in the context of a quantum field, describe with as much or as little mathematics as you like

DanielSank

6:30 AM

Anyone know how to search chat for punctuation characters?

Slereah

7:04 AM

I don't think the search engine is good enough for that

Qmechanic

8:52 AM

@ACuriousMind : For a moment I thought you were asking about an emoticon :P

user228700

@JohnR: Hi :-) Yes, I did see that link (and found it before). I am so sorry, I was too busy trying to finish some stuff.

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H I noticed there's a course specifically targeted at bioengineering, though I'd worry that course is a bit specialised.

user228700

No, no, Bioengineering would not be particularly useful for CN!

user228700

Although... ugh, I'm finding it extremely difficult to figure out which one would be best.

user228700

9:09 AM

And I have no idea whom to ask either.

John Rennie

The "B.TECH DEGREE COURSE IN COMPUTER SCIENCE & ENGINEERING" course seems the obvious one. Which other courses are you considering?

user228700

Why does that seem to be the obvious one..?

user228700

I'm also considering the Electronics & Communication and the Electrical and Electronics course.

John Rennie

I get the impression those two courses are intended for people wanting to work as electronic engineers.

The CS & Eng course seems more broadly based so more useful if you aren't sure exactly what type of work you want to do.

user228700

...but a basic course in circuitry will greatly help with CN. I'm not sure how learning programming and how the computer works will help with it at all. The brain does not resemble a computer in the slightest...

user228700

9:23 AM

Oh, wow, so many more people!

Yashas

but programmers use how the brain works to build AI

Balarka Sen

I am pretty sure coding is more useful for cognitive neuroscience than electrical engineering.

Yashas

they are called neural networks

Balarka Sen

Look up "machine learning" and so

user228700

@BalarkaSen Spoke to a computational neuroscientist at IITM and he disagreed completely...

Balarka Sen

9:25 AM

Huh

user228700

@Yashas Right, but I'm not sure I care so much about the cause of developing AIs.

user228700

Literally the only branch comprising of both cognitive science and C.S that I've seen so far is A.I.

user228700

@BalarkaSen What he had to say is that the brain is almost completely different from how a computer works.

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H: my view would be that you may not end up working in CN - four years is a long time. And even if you do CS is an excellent background skill. CS isn't just coding. It covers a wide range of analytical skills.

Yashas

You can do anything with CS. You can do computational neuroscience :P

user228700

9:27 AM

@BalarkaSen ...and that training your brain to think it terms of the mechanisms of how a computer works wouldn't be as useful as learning how electronic systems function at a more basic level.

John Rennie

It's far from obvious that an electronic engineering course would be much use for working in CN. Yes the CN researchers will need equipment designing and constructing, but they'll just pay someone to do that.

user228700

@JohnRennie And how about if you've done C.S?

Balarka Sen

@Kaumudi.H I know, but there has been some excellent abstract approaches to understanding how the brain works in the past century. I recently heard (from the math room) that someone used topological approaches to the understanding neural networks (the conclusion is that brain is 11-dimensional, whatever that means)

Yashas

I read that 11 dimension thing somewhere

the brain is capable of understanding 11 dimensions or something like that

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H CS + Eng covers a wide range of skills so it equips you for lots of jobs.

user228700

9:29 AM

@BalarkaSen Oh, wow, I see. That would explain why most institutions accept people who've done even Math into their CN Masters program.

Balarka Sen

I dunno about that. They constructed a mystical "flag complex" out of the neural structure, which I don't grok yet.

Yashas

futurism.com/…

John Rennie

Out of the three courses the CS + Eng seems to me to give you the greatest flexibility.

user228700

@JohnRennie But how so?! I don't understand that at all...

Balarka Sen

Yeah, I advocate CS + Eng

user228700

9:30 AM

All I've been told by others is how doing CS would narrow ur options the most.

Mithrandir24601

@Kaumudi.H for what it's worth, I completely agree with @JohnRennie - 1. CS covers a huge range of stuff, at least when taught well. 2. Don't do something because of where you think it'll lead, but do whatever excites you and in four years, you'll be doing what you want to do, not what you thought you wanted to do four years ago

Yashas

Every field of study needs CS in some way or the other

In fact, basic CS is taught in every branch.

You'll have a course on some CS topics even if you take up EE or Mechanical or ...

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H I haven't been through the syllabus in detail, but it covers a lot of maths as well as basic science. Admittedly the later years specialise in the IT side, but you'll end up with a lot of knowledge about maths and science too.

user228700

@Mithrandir24601 ...dang it, why do I keep hearing such conflicting opinions about this?

John Rennie

In fact the CS syllabus includes several courses on electronic engineering as well.

Mithrandir24601

9:33 AM

@Kaumudi.H because if it was clear cut, you wouldn't even need to think about it :P

user228700

I've been told, over and over again, that learning C.S would narrow my options down by a lot.

user228700

Can someone please explain to this noob why that would not be the case?

Balarka Sen

CS probably doesn't have the job perspective of EE, but, I don't see why that's true.

But I'll let someone who knows things say it.

user228700

@BalarkaSen ...actually, around these parts, C.S gets the most placements (and not in like, the IT sector. Doing core stuff, I mean)

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H All I can go on is the syllabus, and that has lots of courses that aren't specificially about the IT side.

Mithrandir24601

9:37 AM

@Kaumudi.H I would say that, in the UK at least, electrical engineering would narrow your choices more than CS, but maybe that's because I'm working in an area more closely related to CS than EE... Similarly, what's the background of the person who told you that?

@Kaumudi.H again, where I was, there were more jobs for CS at any careers fair alone than CS grads

(But things are probably different in India)

Yashas

I see Countto10 again.

user228700

Ah, hmm, I see...

user228700

My dad was the one who told me (pretty convincingly at that) that C.S wouldn't be as flexible as the others but when I asked him just now, it turns out that he's heard this from only one other person.

user228700

...who did Mechanical Engineering.

user228700

I've gotta consider two things now: First, OK, considering that C.S may be a lot more flexible, I gotta understand if I would like it...

user228700

9:46 AM

Second: That one guy told me about how learning C.S wouldn't be so great for pursuing CN later on because the brain and any computer we've got now aren't at all similar.

user228700

...so learning how a computer works would spin me in the wrong direction.

user228700

And lastly, so, OK, what does this flexibility mean? Is it possible to do C.S and then go on to specialise in, say, some branch of electronics?

Yashas

If you are interested in electronics, then take electronics. You'll learn some CS even if you take electronics. You'll have bits of electronics in CS too.

You'll be taught C & assembly because you need it to program microcontrollers. You also need C for IoT/Arduino/etc.

user228700

I don't know if I am yet. Other than that it will be useful to do CN, I am not properly interested to do any type of engineering without the context of something I really actually do love, like CN.

Mithrandir24601

@Kaumudi.H one point of a good CS course is that it's what I'm going to call 'current technology independent', so is designed to be completely general

SBM

9:52 AM

oh hello

user228700

@Mithrandir24601 Huh. Can you elaborate..?

SBM

computer science discussion; interesting

Yashas

IIITH has a lab for Cognitive Science

IIITH has a program which gives your a B.Tech degree in CS & MS in Computational Natural Science (you can choose your topic if there are profs working in your area)

user228700

...Oh, I see. I'm not really looking to do my Masters in India.

Mithrandir24601

So you learn some fundamental concepts about how computers work, a bit of electrical stuff, the concepts about programming, and not 'this bit of tech. does x using y'. The focus is much more on the principles, concepts and even maths etc. and current technology is ignored

user228700

10:00 AM

Ah, hmm, I see...

Mithrandir24601

But, again, it might be different in India...

user228700

Thing is though, these principles, they govern the technology we have used thus far and look to improve and implement in the future, yeah?

Mithrandir24601

@Kaumudi.H sounds about right... neural stuff is also relevant in CS. The problem is that CS is so big, I'm having trouble explaining what it is... :/

user228700

Ah, hmm :-/ Literally the only thing I'm really concerned with is how learning C.S will affect doing CN later on.

Mithrandir24601

Why? What makes you want to do CN?

Balarka Sen

10:06 AM

It probably won't affect learning CN. I can't really imagine EE being more useful to CN than CS

user228700

@Mithrandir24601 I am more intensely passionate about cognitive science than I am about literally anything else.

Mithrandir24601

I have met a computer scientist who researches about how people learn languages, with a couple of aims to the research

user228700

@BalarkaSen Ugh, but the thing is that this guy told me otherwise, told me that learning about the basic principles that govern a system like the kind of computers we have right now is not going to be useful (and might actually be a deterrent) to learning CN because the brain operates on completely different principles.

Balarka Sen

Ok. Has he told you EE is useful to learning CN?

user228700

He has, yeah :-/

user228700

10:11 AM

In fact, he did EE from IITM back in the day.

Balarka Sen

Weird. Well, he's the one person who really has studied cognitive neuroscience, unlike any of us, so probably do that.

I had a completely different impression of things. Maybe I'm thinking more about machine learning than CN

SBM

machine learning ...

user228700

@BalarkaSen Maybe you are...

Mithrandir24601

@Kaumudi.H that was my point from earlier, it's not about what we have now, but it's even more fundamental than that, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's different in India

user228700

What do u mean by "it's even more fundamental than that"? Can you please explain..?

Yashas

10:13 AM

@Kaumudi.H even Ramamurti Shankar got EE from IITM

now everybody is using his textbook for learning physics :P

but don't follow him

he must have taken EE becaz of this unfortunate JEE system where JEE rank decides what you become in life

user228700

^ Even the other prof. did the same, he told me. But that he is now grateful that he took EE.

Yashas

no wonder why India does not have a Microsoft or Google

even if you get an international informatics olympiad medal soon after brith, you won't get admission at IITs for CS unless you are an expert in JEE physics, maths & chemistry

Mithrandir24601

Well, Dirac also did electrical engineering...

@Kaumudi.H we studied it with the explicit intent of being relevant in the future and not now. E.g. What makes a programming language good, not how do you program well.

user228700

Huh, I see...

Yashas

My city was ranked best in India for quality of life :O

Balarka Sen

10:21 AM

thumbs up

SBM

oh

Mithrandir24601

Or, how do you design a programming language, how do you build the compiler. Is a compiler even the best way to do things? How will people program in the future - will the form of interaction between humans and computers be different and if so, how? (This is a massive area in itself)

user228700

Oh, wow, I see...

SBM

yes

Mithrandir24601

See e.g. m.youtube.com/watch?v=RG-q8Y4H87g

user228700

10:25 AM

Oh, thanks! :-)

user228700

Man, there is so much more to know...

user228700

Thanks for all this information!

Balarka Sen

I have to do chemistry but I don't want to

user228700

@BalarkaSen Man, I am so sorry :-( This too shall pass.

SBM

@BalarkaSen almost similar except for QM

Balarka Sen

10:29 AM

I have to decide what I would be doing in the next couple hours. More importantly, I have to decide if I will spend my time in the next couple minutes deciding what to do or not. Crucially, I have to decide if I will spend time in the next couple seconds deciding on decision-making or deciding to not, or not deciding to decide, or...

Mithrandir24601

@Kaumudi.H the guy in the video is Peter Robinson, who is the closest person I've met to a computational neuroscientist. He did maths because he predates CS degrees, but is now a professor of CS and simply brilliant and then a lot more

SBM

oh :|
Mathematics is really fun.

user228700

@Mithrandir24601 Ah, hmm, wow, I see...

user228700

I'll watch it soon and get back to you, thank you so much! :-)

Balarka Sen

Once when Littlewood attended an international conference in France, a French mathematician greeted him: “So there really is a Littlewood, and it is not just a pseudonym which G.H. Hardy uses to publish his poorer papers!”

...

Yashas

10:35 AM

That reminds me of Ramanujan.

Balarka Sen

The advisor-student trio is indeed impressive: Littlewood, Hardy, Ramanujan

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H No-one is claiming that doing CS will help you understand the brain because the brain works like a computer. Doing CS will give you the skills in data analysis and computer modelling that will be useful for studying how the brain works.

Balarka Sen

(I am not a big supported of Ramanujan as a public figure. He was a good mathematician.)

Shing

learning programming may also help to distinguish "prediction" from "encoding" in science.

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