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12:00 AM
@ACuriousMind the non commutability I've side stepped by measuring on diff copies of same state
 
@user929304 They're there because that's how quantum mechanics works. There's no deep reason, this is just the way the world works.
 
for an answer to that, see the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle
 
@user929304 they're there because the universe that shog 9 created doesn't have the processing power for exact numerical values for complementary variables, it raises the computation time by way too much
 
Phyiscal states are vectors in Hilbert space, and if it's not an eigenvector of an observable, there will be an uncertainty for that observable in that state. There is no because, this is a postulate about how the quantum world works
 
@ACuriousMind that part I get, indeed because of randomness involved in measurements of qm, I mean why their non commutability still relevant when I use diff copies
 
12:01 AM
probably what Phase said
 
@user929304 It's not the non-commutability. You can compute the uncertainty of an observable without ever referring to a different observable, you just need to know the state
The non-commutabily is a red herring: Once you accept the notion of states and uncertainties for single observables , the uncertainty principle is an almost trivial consequence of the Cauchy-Schwarz inequality.
 
@ACuriousMind but he s using the product of Delta a and Delta b in that discussion, so he s relating the two observables
 
Hang on
Does Stackexchange require captcha to make an account?
If so then ACM is even more advanced than I thought
 
the non-commutability only tells you which observables can you not simultaneously create an eigenstate of
 
@Phase Yes, it will even regularly require you to sovle a captcha if you mistype your password
 
12:04 AM
Ah so you never had to face it
 
You can create an state which is simultaneously the eigenstate of several different observables, but once a pair of observables don't commute, you are forced to forever give up trying to construct a simultaneous eigenstate of both.
so sad
existential crisis intensifies
 
@user929304 So? $\Delta A(\psi)$ is a property of the state $\psi$, and nothing else. It also fulfills the HUP for any other observable $B$, but that's just by virtue of how operators on Hilbert spaces work, it is not any sort of extra constraint on $\Delta A$.
 
my eyes are bleeding again unfortunately
 
Nov 25 '16 at 17:02, by ACuriousMind
I get it, it's tricky to circumvent pass the "not a robot" tests sometimes.
 
@ACuriousMind I think I get your point, still gotta mull over it for it to sink in.
 
12:06 AM
@enumaris I dearly hope that's a joke
because if not thanks for the nightmares
 
XD
 
@ACuriousMind whoa the meme is that old?
 
@ACuriousMind thanks a lot again for your time, very helpful
 
@user929304 As always, you're welcome :)
@Phase Yes, it is
 
@ACuriousMind what originally confused me about that was the fact that even though I wasn't trying to measure a and b simultaneously, I was still getting a non zero uncertainty
 
12:08 AM
im gonna head to bed I think. Have a good night all
 
@user929304 Yeah, the crucial thing to realize for that is that $\Delta A := \langle A^2\rangle - \langle A\rangle^2$ does not involve any other state or observable at all
 
you can get a zero uncertainty for a by preparing the state in an eigenstate of a and similarly for b
 
It's just a statement about the statistical properties of measuring $A$ on a certain state, nothing more
 
@ACuriousMind feels great, I get it! Thanks again
 
my efforts to confuse the issue have failed...disappointing
 
12:12 AM
I feel like I should take this opportunity to actually understand some very basic quantum mechanics
O what is a state?
 
@enumaris I didn't notice you trying to confuse the issue, you just said a bunch of correct things that weren't particularly relevant :P
 
well I didn't want to actually promulgate false information eh
 
Is it a collection of properties of a system has at any given time? or a vector space at some moment?
 
it's a ray in a Hilbert space
 
@Cows Have a look at the Dirac-von Neumann axioms.
 
12:13 AM
aha
 
too much math, just know they are rays, u know like a line with a pointy thing at the end of it
except the line goes on forever
 
Good night all
 
@enumaris a vector of infinite length?
 
@enumaris Please don't try to intentionally confuse people asking genuine questions
 
mmmmmm
Ok, it's a set of vectors in a Hilbert space that are related to each other simply by an overall phase
 
12:16 AM
aha so here we have definitions for a state, observable and expectation value
@enumaris aha
 
you can think of them as simply vectors in the Hilbert space with the added condition that two vectors which differ only by an overall phase actually specify the same state
 
So the Hilbert space formulation is the what i think I have marginal exposure to
 
An observable is then an operator which takes a vector and generate another vector
 
except without proper definitions
 
the expectation value of an observable is given by the inner product of a vector with the vector generated by that observable acting on that vector
 
12:18 AM
You shouldn't try to do quantum field theory without being very comfortable with the formalism of ordinary QM, both in the Hilbert space/operator and the path integral formalism.
 
<A>=(psi, A*psi)
where (,) denotes the inner product on the Hilbert space
or in nicer notation <A> = <psi|A|psi>
hurray for QM!
 
@enumaris nice
so let me ask a few questions
 
go for it
 
so objects like $< \phi | H | \phi>$ and $< \phi |H| \chi>$ what is the appropriate name for these and what do they mean?
 
The first one is the expectation for the Hamiltonian in state phi
the second one is the projection of \phi onto the vector generated by H\chi
not sure if there's a general name for that one...hmmm
maybe I just forgot lol
 
12:24 AM
the average value it is expected to have in that state, aha ok . .ok
 
expectation value
 
so transition amplitude? lolz ?
been a while hehe
 
@enumaris There isn't, because it generally doesn't have a physical meaning
 
well it certainly has a mathematical meaning heh
 
so is the S matrix a collection of such objects?
 
12:26 AM
Well, "off-diagonal matrix element" might be appropriate if $\psi,\chi$ are part of a basis
 
ah yeah
that's true
 
yes
 
@Cows Not really. As I said, stay with ordinary QM first before jumping into scattering theory or QFT
 
oh lol
ok
so let me ask another question
what does it mean to do a normalization
1 = "something"
 
The S-matrix is more like a bunch of <stuff|S|other stuff> where S is some scattering operator...but even the way you define the incoming and outgoing states is somewhat complicated lol
 
12:28 AM
aha
 
it's easiest to work with normalized states where (psi,psi)=1
 
@Cows Normalization of what?
 
this is because, then you can interpret results like <x|psi> as some sort of probability density function
 
I understand that we ensure the probability must add to one
 
alternatively, you can go around adding in (psi,psi) in the denominator to a bunch of different equations
it gets pretty tedious
 
12:29 AM
@ACuriousMind normalization of the wave function
 
are we making any distinction between a wave function and a state ket or state vector?
 
so what is a ground state? when is it false?
 
sometimes people use wave function only to mean the position (or possibly momentum) representation of a state-vector
The ground state is the state with minimum energy
 
@Cows This normalization is not a physically meaningful operation, you just get rid of an annoying factor you'd need to otherwise keep track of when applying the Born rule.
 
so we can go between momentum rep and position rep with a fourier transform
@ACuriousMind aha
 
12:31 AM
the state for which <psi|H|psi> is minimized
 
@enumaris by minimize we mean the same as in calculus right?
 
indeed they are related by fourier transformations
 
second derivative = 0?
 
Not to be confused with renormalization, which is a different thing entirely.
 
well that's if you are doing a minimization problem
 
12:33 AM
@Mithrandir24601 right. main thing is that i have an allergic reaction to anyone talking about consciousness acting on quantum mechanics directly
 
ok @enumaris how is it done in QM
 
I'm just making the statement that the ground state is the one for which the number <psi|H|psi> is the smallest number for any state in the Hilbert space.
Usually you are solving some sort of time-independent Schroedinger equation, and then you get the eigenstates of energy, and the lowest eigenstate is the ground state
 
Wow, chat has been lively today/yesterday, 12 pages of chat!
 
@Semiclassical Ahh, like Wigner's friend? :P
 
12:34 AM
aha
 
tbf i'm sympathetic to the idea that quantum mechanics should be thought of in terms of information
 
@ACM let's not bring renormalization to this chat please...it's a painful memory
 
so we can solve and identify the lowest value, but how can we be sure it is the lowest value?
 
@Semiclassical Ah, a $\psi$-epistemic.
 
sympathetic is not the same as convinced, to be sure.
since i'm also sympathetic to pilot-wave theory :P
 
12:35 AM
By construction, the lowest eigenstate will be the lowest value of energy. It's part of the solving process.
 
@Semiclassical Ah, someone who contradicts himself ;)
 
By contrast, I don't like consciousness arguments and I don't like many worlds
 
pilot wave theory....
 
is the ground state also known as the vaccuum state?
 
You do know that local hidden variable theories have been disproven right
 
12:36 AM
@ACuriousMind is a dead meme
 
@Phase SR?
 
@Cows In QFT, yes.
 
@ACuriousMind then what is a false vaccum, is it a local minimum? and what does metastable mean?
 
in QM no, the ground state is simply the state of lowest energy of that particle
 
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
 
12:37 AM
@enumaris what is a vaccum in QM?
 
@Cows As I said, let's not go into QFT before you're on sure footing in standard QM
 
@ACuriousMind offcourse sorry
 
@Semiclassical Whitman. Great quote.
 
only in QFT when you change from a particle-based view of the world to a field-based view of the world do you get stuff like "the ground state is the vacuum state"
 
12:37 AM
I need a canadian
 
because particles are excitations of the field
 
I live my life by those lines. @Semiclassical
 
tbh I thought it was Emerson when I was googling it
 
ok so is there a vaccuum in quantum mechanics?
 
not an interesting one
 
12:38 AM
I’m pretty sure it’s Whitman!
 
it's just a lack of a particle
 
mostly because I've read Emerson more than I've read Whitman. (I was really into Emerson for a time in high school)
no, you're right
 
QM is about doing experiments with particles
 
ok so for a free particle qm theory we have no potential
 
QM is about lying to people
 
12:38 AM
lol
 
and can just solve schrodingers equation
 
Just like how JFK and 9/11 were inside jobs
 
@Cows That's what "free" means, yes.
 
QM is an inside job
 
Free QM is very boring, though
 
12:39 AM
that's not entirely false
I mean the first year of Quantum is basically the prof going
 
@ACuriousMind You're just advocating for corporate america to make me buy QM
 
"remember when I taught you that? it's nto technically right"
over and over again
 
"Education is the art of telling smaller and smaller lies."
 
what does it mean to add a potential? so say I add a central potential . .
 
remember when I taught you about de-broglie waves? not technically right
remember when I taught you about the Bohr atom? not technically right
 
12:40 AM
@enumaris Only true if your prof is bad :P
 
Bohr and de-Broglie are both memes too
 
it certainly changes the wave function because the solution will be different right?
 
most textbooks go that route
and so most profs just follow
 
My first encounter with actual QM was taught by an excellent prof who always made very clear when we were making assumptions that weren't true, or simplifying things that couldn't really be simplified.
 
a particle in the presence of a potential behaves differently to a free particle yes
 
12:40 AM
now are the new objects $<a|H|b>$
 
that shouldn't be surprising
 
It left a lasting distaste for the common methods of teaching QM.
 
part of a scattering matrix?
 
wut...
 
let me try again
 
12:41 AM
@Semiclassical It is!
 
say I added a potential to schrdingers equation
so far so good?
 
mmhm
 
I don't think I'm the one who came up with that line, but it's a good one
 
what is the new terminology to use
 
uh...
 
12:42 AM
what are the objects <a|H|b> called?
 
@Semiclassical Just tell the lie you're the one who came up with it, until you're at the point where it's the biggest lie you tell ;)
 
projections of <a| onto H|b> ?
 
ok
 
or the matrix element H_ab?
 
12:43 AM
what is the borne rule and what is scattering
what is scattering in qm
 
assuming a and b are not...uhm...co-linear or what's the phrase for it...I'm having a brain fart
 
let me give some background
 
@Cows I feel you should just take a course in basic QM or read a textbook on it.
You're basically asking us to explain the entirety of QM and QFT to you at this point
Without a shared background, your questions are very hard to answer
 
@ACuriousMind let hang on let me modify my question
So i know some rutherford scattering ,
 
the borne rule simply gives a method of interpreting the outputs you get when you perform mathematical operations on state vectors. It says, that the wave function psi(x) can be interpreted as a probability density function where int_a^b psi(x)*psi(x)dx gives you the probability that the particle in state psi will be found within the interval [a,b]
 
12:46 AM
It's Born, not borne :P
 
and some scattering from my qm class, but I think I did not pay too much attention to QM back in the day
but i want to recalibrate my thinking and fix what i missed lol
 
scattering is like when a particle in a scattering state (i.e. not in a bound state) interacts with some potential in some way
you can have direction changing scatterings
or you can also have forward scattering
 
Writing "borne" instead of Born is borne of negligence :P
 
Yeah it felt wrong, but I wasn't sure
 
aha
aha
 
12:48 AM
I do feel like your questions are kind of all over the place though lol
hard to know what you're getting at
 
^that's why I say you should learn QM systematically to begin with
 
well i am just trying to fill some holes lol
@ACuriousMind i will definitely take QM sometime in the future
 
Filling some holes implies that you have a firm understanding of the overall structure with some pieces missing. But it appears that you have the inverse problems: Knowledge of many pieces without a good idea of what the overall structure is.
 
You know a good book on QM? springer.com/us/book/9783540893431
that one
 
@enumaris ಠ_ಠ
2
 
12:50 AM
as fond as i am of pilot-wave theory, that's not a good place to learn standard QM
 
@ACuriousMind lol
 
the emoji didn't render for me
what was the emoji lol
 
@enumaris It's the look of disapproval :P
 
@enumaris It's the look your teacher gives you before handing your paper back with an F
 
12:51 AM
is it the one with the indian characters for eyes?
 
@enumaris That's like all emojis
 
lol
 
The indian language was created for that purpose
 
@BernardoMeurer No, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, has a Japanese kana for the smiley face, not an Indian character :P
 
@ACuriousMind And who told you japanese and indian aren't just the same?
Do you speak either?
 
12:53 AM
@BernardoMeurer The Japanese and Indians.
 
@ACuriousMind I doubt you ever bothered to ask!
 
@ACuriousMind you are quite right. I was not as fond of physics back when I took QM the first time, and I used griffiths QM, took to semesters, but now I feel like I really want to get the full picture. But yeah i will definitely take QM again at some point. I though it was cool, but I did not really looooove it the way i do now
 
(check out that link I provided tho, it's an awesome book)
is there the equivalent of a Kappa emoji in here
 
@enumaris Shankar is a good QM book
 
anyone in here use twitch...
 
12:57 AM
@enumaris Fortunately not
 
@Cows Streams on twitch, @enumaris
What even is a Kappa emoji
 
Reminds me of the times @0celo7 streamed his gaming endeavors
 
it's the one that looks like a face
Kappa
 
@ACuriousMind Are you on Spotify?
 
@BernardoMeurer nope
 
12:59 AM
@ACuriousMind How on earth did you manage that typo :P
 
i is right next to o
And I might not be on my first beer :P
 
Heh, good
I miss Lisbon sometimes
Getting drunk was so accessible
 
Griffiths would be a good book except that there's a solutions manual for its problems
 
No wonder nothing got done
@Semiclassical How is that bad?
 
it's bad because it means that students can easily find it online
I guess I should clarify that I mean it's a bad book in the context of a QM course
 
1:01 AM
@ACuriousMind out of curiousity, when you took QM was it as a math course or a physics course?
 
@Semiclassical You can easily find that for many books too, that shouldn't be a con of the book IMO
Ah
Yes
A bad "textbook" I suppose
 
@Cows Physics, but judging what I hear from others it was on the mathy side of the spectrum
 
right
 
@ACuriousMind yup you definitely were . . . definitely
 
Script from that course is here, but it's in German.
 
1:03 AM
@ACuriousMind hehe I speak some german
let me look
@ACuriousMind yup math side of things hehe
 
Hmm
Interesting
An album whose title track is the last track
 
@ACuriousMind you mean my Skyrim modding :P
 
@0celo7 yup
 
I keep getting the itch to continue playing
It’s such a good game
Slap on some ENBs and lighting mods and you’ve got a terrific looking game
Oh and texture mods
Lots of memory leaks but hey
 
@ACuriousMind btw is there any significance to the hermite polynomial form for solution of harmonic oscillator? just curious since the other way with raising and lowering operators has an interpretation
 
1:10 AM
Skyrim is an awesome game
I really hope TES VI comes out in my lifetime
 
@Cows I'm not sure what you mean by significance
 
@ACuriousMind yeah my german is useless I am translating the pdf with some software to look through it
 
@BernardoMeurer I really hope they return to the setting weirdness that defined Morrowind. The gameplay got better but the setting got a lot more boring
 
@ACuriousMind Agreed, Morrowind had an awesome setting
Oblivion was really good on that mark too
Skyrim did fall short
I also really hope they get a new engine
 
Heh, yeah, at this point no one knows what holds the TES engine together
Just subsystem upon subsystem bolted onto the poor original system of Morrowind
 
1:13 AM
@ACuriousMind well can say H_0 or H_2 or something be mapped to some physical thing? the H here for hermite polynomials. I want to describe better but have some math language barrier here hehe
 
@Cows The Hermite polynomials times $\exp(-x^2/2)$ are the solutions to the time-independent Schrödinger equation, i.e. the wavefunctions of the energy eigenstates of the harmonic oscillator
 
@ACuriousMind they did something to SSE that made it a lot more stable
So it should work for another iteration
I think that they updated the engine for TES6 and just threw the new engine back into Skyrim for SSE
So it’s likely just a better Skyrim engine for the new one
 
@0celo7 That's not an English sentence but I think I know what you mean ;)
 
Better?
 
Much
 
1:18 AM
Autocorrect
 
aha
 
I swear to god I have found an example of the Banach-Tarski paradox in real life
This towel releases so much lint I could have made like 4 towels already if I collected it
And it looks exactly the same
 
@BernardoMeurer Maybe you should use a different linter, then :P
 
I am certainly going to pick up a qm text and read,
 
@ACuriousMind I'm talking about the lint that gets in the drier filter
 
1:26 AM
I know, it was a lame joke :|
 
@ACuriousMind i have an idea. What if i can pick a very simple model in quantum mechanics and try to learn everything about it instead lol
what will be a good one to pick?
why could this be a bad idea?
 
There is no one single model that will teach you everything. The beauty and power of quantum mechanics is that it encompasses a wide range of phenomena.
 
darn, was this close to taking a short cut, fine, I'll open up a QM text.
 
@Cows I wouldn't listen to ACM on anything related to physics tbh
 
@BernardoMeurer hehe why is that?
 
1:35 AM
I mean, he's a CEO, so he's just an administrator
 
He's a CEO? whaaaa? lol
 
I'm not a CEO.
 
@Cows You didn't know that?
He's the CEO of SAP
he got hired last week
 
yesterday, by ACuriousMind
@BernardoMeurer How long until you tire of that joke? :P
 
yesterday, by Bernardo Meurer
And my children will tell your grandchildren's children about it
 
1:36 AM
SAP is a huge company. You mean to tell me I have been talking to the CEO of SAP? lolz
 
@Cows Yeah! He's a big deal now
 
hehehehe
 
@Cows they were looking for someone who could treat their investments as superpositions
 
holy smokes
SAP is awesome they have a good ERP
I might be forced to learn their ERP if i get some job I applied for
 
`@Cows He's also in the inheritance line for the royal kingdom of namibia
his mother is the queen's third sister
 
1:43 AM
@BernardoMeurer You didn't even bother to check whether Namibia ever had a king, did you? :P
 
hehe
@ACuriousMind congrats on SAP!
 
@ACuriousMind I'm sure at some point some territory that nowadays constitutes namibia had a king :P
 
@Cows Not a CEO or anything like that though, I'll just develop software for them.
 
@Cows He's being modest
@ACuriousMind :P
 
And at this point all this talk is making me rather nervous since I haven't signed anything yet :P
 
1:47 AM
omg this is awesome
 
You'll sign your name on their graves with blood if they don't follow through, amirite?
That's how I was with my last employer
 
Like, that was my first job application ever, don't jinx it, guys :P
 
hehe :P
 
@ACuriousMind You never worked before? ಠ_ಠ
 
@BernardoMeurer No, I had a scholarship
 
1:49 AM
@ACuriousMind can i follow you on github?
 
@ACuriousMind And here I am selling my body to capitalism
Sigh
 
@Cows Don't have a github I'd want to expose to the public currently
 
@ACuriousMind Oh my god
I will so find it now
I'm DYING to see it
 
@BernardoMeurer hehe don't do that lol
 
@ACuriousMind Did you block me on Facebook ಠ_ಠ
 
1:50 AM
@BernardoMeurer European Hippie Socialism for the win
 
@ACuriousMind well I would love to follow it someday
I have an interview on Tuesday for a php role lol
 
nvm, found it
 
@BernardoMeurer The only interaction I ever had with you there was declining your friend request, maybe that blocks you automatically? :|
 
Nope, I found it
 
Again, nothing personal, just a matter of principle
 
1:52 AM
ACM is a savage
 
ACM wants me to die
 
That’s messed up.
 
ACM wishes you all a long and happy life
 
@ACuriousMind Do you have some cousin named Mark?
 
@BernardoMeurer Nope
 
1:55 AM
Hm
 
My cousins are named Christian, Andreas, Johannes, Judith and Ronja, and you can't do anything with that information because none of them shares my last name
 
@ACuriousMind Judith is cute!
 
@BernardoMeurer send me a pic
 
@BernardoMeurer The Judith in my friends list on fb is not my cousin :P
 
1:58 AM
@ACuriousMind Dammit
Well, that judith is cute
 
I'm trying to imagine how I'd explain this conversation to her if she ever found it :P
 
heading out for a walk. Had an awesome time here today. . . . thanks guys
:D
 
Are you looking to become an in-law of ACM’s?
 
see you guys again soon
 
@ACuriousMind How on god's good grace are you not on thphys.uni-heidelberg.de/…
@0celo7 Yes
 

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