« first day (1810 days earlier)      last day (3417 days later) » 
00:00 - 19:0019:00 - 00:00

19:02
Can we use Mayer-Vietoris?
Never heard of it
No algebra!
H=closed/exact is all you get
The Mayer-Vietoris sequence is one of the most powerful tools to compute (co)homologies.
It's much better than trying this shit explicitly.
Well, Arnold wants the reader to do it explicitly
How does one approach the problem?
Well, honestly, I would never compute cohomology by the deRham way. The beauty of deRham's theorem is precisely that I can compute the cohomology however I want and still know stuff about differential forms.
But, guided by the fact that we know we should get $\mathbb{R}\oplus\mathbb{R}$, you might take a look at the forms $\mathrm{d}\theta$ and $\mathrm{d}\phi$. They are closed. Are they exact?
Uh, I guess $\mathrm{d}\theta$ and $\mathrm{d}\phi$ are exact.
They are literally differentials...
19:08
Wrong. Find out why, I'll go grocery shopping, brb ;)
wtf
Hint: $\int_{S^1} \mathrm{d}\theta = 2\pi\neq 0$. Either show that or think about what function $\mathrm{d}\theta$ would be a differential of.
you need to learn when to give hints
btw I was typing that
that hint was too strong btw
@ACuriousMind The issue is that $\partial_\theta f=1$ is impossible on the torus, we talked about that the other day.
@ACuriousMind You know I said above that integrating forms on circles can determine exactness.
19:35
@0celo7 I thought the difficult part here was less seeing that that integral is non-zero but proving it.
Huh?
If you integrate over a point, the integral is zero. But if you integrate along the circle, it also has to be zero because the antiderivative should be single valued.
Well, "$\mathrm{d}\theta$" is, strictly speaking, not an expression for a form on the whole circle because the angular coordinate is not a coordiante for the entire circle (due to that non-continuity when it wraps around).
So writing $\int_{S^1}\mathrm{d}\theta$ is intuitively clear, but one has to say what one means by it.
Do you see what I mean?
Use a partition of unity and good local coordinates, then.
I don't see the issue.
Okay, I now have officially not the slightest idea what is obvious to you and what isn't ;)
What?
What did you think should be non obvious
And what did you think should be obvious
Multitasking atm, I might be glossing over details
19:47
I thought it was intutively obvious that $\int_{S^1}\mathrm{d}\theta = 2\pi$ but non-obvious how to prove it is.
But perhaps I still haven't really understood what your question to me was :/
Ok
It's not obvious for me to prove how it is
Maybe parameterize with time and unit speed
then do that integral
@ACuriousMind so, how does one prove it?
@0celo7 Well, you have to cover the circle with two coordinate patches in which $\mathrm{d}\theta$ is well-defined, integrate locally, and sum up the result, substracting the overlap.
I said that!
wtf is going on
stop confusing us D:
@ACuriousMind how to calculate the betti number
@0celo7 I did not say you didn't say that. I said I thought it non-obvious.
And you now have found that $\mathrm{d}\theta$ isn't exact. So that's 1 in the Betti number already.
Now you just need to look at all the other closed forms and decide whether they're exact.
20:03
Well, $\mathrm{d}\phi$?
Same deal
Correct. How about the infinitely many others? ;)
o.o
what does that mean
:/
Well, there can still be arbitrary closed forms $\omega = t(\theta,\phi)\mathrm{d}\theta + p(\theta,\phi)\mathrm{d}\phi$ with $\mathrm{d}\omega = 0$, we've said nothing about those.
I feel like I did...
Say it again, perhaps I missed it
20:07
as long as $\int_{S^1}t\mathrm{d}\theta=\int_{S^1}p\mathrm{d}\phi=0$, $\omega$ is exact
$\omega$ is closed iff $\partial_\phi t=\partial_\theta p$
And now?
Now what?
Well, you need to compute the cohomology, what did you intend to do next?
That's my question!
Okay, what do you think you should try?
20:15
I don't know, I've never done this before.
Okay, since we want to show that $\mathrm{d}\theta$ and $\mathrm{d}\phi$ span the cohomology, we need to show that every other closed form $\omega$ has constants $a(\omega),b(\omega)$ such that $\omega - a(\omega)\mathrm{d}\theta - b(\omega)\mathrm{d}\phi$ is exact.
d'accord?
Sigh...do you agree?
Thinking!
Uh, sure! Why constants?
Can't they be functions on the torus?
Because the span is as a real vector space?
@0celo7 If they were functions on the torus we could just substract $\omega$ from itself, no?
20:24
wtf is happening
nothing you say makes sense any more
is this a ploy to get me to stop asking questions? this has been happening for a while now :(
No, I'm pretty certain my last two statements are entirely correct. I think the problem is that I have no clue what the picture in your head of the situation looks like. Let me try a bit more verbose:
my problem is that I have absolutely no clue how to find a cohomology group
I don't even know what it means to compute it
I don't know what you're trying to get me to do
When we say a cohomology group is $\mathbb{R}^n$, this means there are $n$ closed but not exact forms $\omega_i$ such that for every other closed form $\xi$ there are constants $a_i$ such that $\xi - \sum_i a_i\omega_i$ is exact.
@0celo7 deRham cohomology is really not suited to understand what one is computing, don't worry.
The thing about the constants follows directly from the definition as the quotient of the closed by the exact forms.
@ACuriousMind I don't see that
@0celo7 Okay: Do you see that, in general, given a $n$-dim. vector space $V$ and a $k$-dim. subspace $W$, the quotient $V/W$ is generated by $n-k$-vectors that lie in $V$ but not in $W$?
20:33
of course
Actually we talked about that in linear algebra today
@0celo7 Good. Now, this means that every vector in $V$ can be written as the sum of the $n-k$ vectors in $V$ but not $W$ and $k$ vectors spanning $W$
of course
And this means that "$n-k$ vectors span $V/W$" is the same as saying "There are $n-k$ vectors $u_i$ in $V$ but not $W$ such that for every vector $v\in V$ there are constants $a_i$ such that $v - \sum_i a_i u_i$ is in $W$".
yes...
Okay. Now, $V$ are the closed forms, $W$ are the exact forms, and we want to show that $\mathrm{d}\theta$ and $\mathrm{d}\phi$ span $V/W$.
20:37
er, ok...
Where did I lose you?
Or what is the "er" supposed to mean?
confusion
half confusion
I'm confused by what's confusing me
oh right because closed = exact $\oplus$ closed but not exact
continue
so closed \ closed but not exact = exact
@0celo7 Well, we're now back where you stopped me, I think:
26 mins ago, by ACuriousMind
Okay, since we want to show that $\mathrm{d}\theta$ and $\mathrm{d}\phi$ span the cohomology, we need to show that every other closed form $\omega$ has constants $a(\omega),b(\omega)$ such that $\omega - a(\omega)\mathrm{d}\theta - b(\omega)\mathrm{d}\phi$ is exact.
WAIT
why are they constants
why can't we have functions for a and b
and have that thing be exact
@0celo7 Because the quotient closed/exact is a quotient of $\mathbb{R}$-vector spaces by definition.
20:45
what?
@0celo7 Forms are an $\mathbb{R}$-vector space, yes?
I'm really not seeing why you think these things should be allowed to be functions.
@ACuriousMind they are?
what exactly do you mean by that
@0celo7 You can add them and multiply them by constant functions.
of course
but also variable functions
@0celo7 But those are not a field, so the forms are not a vector space over them.
20:48
are they a module over them?
What did you think the $\mathbb{R}$ in $H^1(T^2,\mathbb{R})$ stood for?
@ACuriousMind fuck if I know
@0celo7 Yes, but that is irrelevant.
@0celo7 Then Arnold is terrible at this :P
what is happening
What is happening is that you had the worst possible introduction to (co)homology, I think.
20:51
^me
I'm so confused
I think you're confused because you did never stop to think about what the definition of the cohomology group meant (and Arnold evidently didn't care to clearly explain). What, exactly, do you understand by the "quotient of the closed by the exact forms"?
the set of all forms that are closed but not exact!
@0celo7 I'm afraid that is wrong.
It's close to the meaning, but it is not what it means.
Consider the quotient of the plane by a line: $\mathbb{R}^2/\mathbb{R}$ What is it?
a line
Well, it is not false since it is indeed isomorphic to $\mathbb{R}$.
But what does an element in $\mathbb{R}^2/\mathbb{R}$ mean? Do you know how the quotient is formally defined?
20:58
I do after reading wiki
Such things are not kept in memory
So, if I told you that $\mathbb{R}^2/\mathbb{R}$ is the set of all lines parallel to the line I divided out, how would you feel about that?
@0celo7 "Two things lie in the same equivalence class if their difference lies in the thing we divided out" is not that hard to memorize :P
so...just the plane with a line removed?
@ACuriousMind I knew that,
@0celo7 No! Each line is an element of the quotient.
not kept in conscious memory :)
@ACuriousMind but...how is that isomorphic to $\mathbb{R}$ if there's a line missing
@0celo7 Because there is none missing - the initial line is parallel to itself, after all.
21:02
would that not be $\mathbb{R}-\{p\}$
The thing you divide out gets sent to 0 in the new object, but it doesn't vanish.
well
a picture helps here
ok I think I believe you now
although I might be wrong, you should explain
@0celo7 Explain what, now? The cohomology? Or something about the quotients?
how R^2/R is the set of parallel lines
just to be extra sure
99% of my misunderstandings come from me jumping to conclusions
@ACuriousMind well that's how like every physics...oh my god
the physics books ruined me
@0celo7 Okay: Let's say the line $L$ I divide out is generated by $v\in\mathbb{R}^2$, that is, elements of $L$ are multiples $\lambda v,\lambda\in\mathbb{R}$. Now, for two $w,w'\in\mathbb{R}^2$ to lie in the same equivalence class, $w-w'\in L$, so $w-w' = \lambda v$. But that means we can just pick any $w_0$ in a class and all other vectors in the class are $w_0 + \lambda v$ for some $\lambda$.
This shows the equivalence classes are lines parallel to $L$.
21:12
oki
now where were we
oh, we were discussing that I am a broken human being because of shitty physics textbooks
yesterday, by Danu
I hate physicists.
Right message on the wall for that ;)
SO WHAT THE HELL IS THE COHOMOLOGY
just...give it to me straight, doc
future doc
MS student
@0celo7 The quotient of the closed forms by the exact forms considered as real vector spaces.
::curls up::
they're not real vector spaces
but they are
I'm so confused
"real vector space" means "a vector space over the real numbers"?
21:15
I know what a real vector space means
but they're a module over the functions
Why can't they be both?
THEY ARE
I KNOW THAT
I never said otherwise
sigh
ok, how about this
if it's a real vector space, it has a basis
what is the basis of the closed forms, and of the exact forms?
maybe seeing that will help
Well...that's not gonna help, the basis is uncountable.
just kill me
dare I ask why it is uncountable
@ACuriousMind on a scale of yes to no, am I being annoying?
@0celo7 This was unexpectedly annoying because I did realize I'm not sure how to show that they're uncountable.
21:23
Well
Let's try counting them
See what happens
you know in which sense I mean annoying
@Slereah I claimed the basis is uncountable, which is far more than saying the space is uncountable.
@0celo7 Yes, and you're quite close to the "no" end of the scale.
Just forget about the size of that basis, it's infinite in any case, so it's useless regardless of countability.
So am annoying, but only slightly so? Jesus have I gone dumb?
So we have an uncountable number of closed forms, and taking linear combinations of these forms we can get all closed forms?
Same for exact?
@0celo7 Yeah.
There might not be a basis if you don't believe in the axiom of choice, though ;)
O...k
So now what
21:28
We want to quotient one infinite-dimensional vector space by another and show the resulting dimension is 2 :)
now that I understand
how on Earth do we do that
46 mins ago, by ACuriousMind
26 mins ago, by ACuriousMind
Okay, since we want to show that $\mathrm{d}\theta$ and $\mathrm{d}\phi$ span the cohomology, we need to show that every other closed form $\omega$ has constants $a(\omega),b(\omega)$ such that $\omega - a(\omega)\mathrm{d}\theta - b(\omega)\mathrm{d}\phi$ is exact.
I think I have two memes at this point
GDP
and why the flipping frick are $a$ and $b$ constants
wait a moment
are we saying that the cohomology
as a real vector space
is spanned by $\mathrm{d}\theta$ and $\mathrm{d}\phi$?
why didn't you just say that an hour ago
jeez
moving on, what now?
21:32
Apparently, I'm abysmal at communicating that :/
Did somebody want to know something about a torus?
@0celo7 Well, we show that. The only hint I can think of solves it.
> We want to quotient one infinite-dimensional vector space by another and show the resulting dimension is 2 :)
that's all you needed to say, I think
@ACuriousMind I don't care at this point
@JohnDuffield Not from you, sorry.
@ACuriousMind please just solve it
@0celo7 : not even a torus like this one from Adrian Rossiter's antiprism website?
Pretty torus!
How does that help me at all
21:39
@0celo7 Set $a(\omega) = \int t \mathrm{d}\theta$ and $b(\omega) = \int p\mathrm{d}\phi$.
bounds?
Now, use your closedness condition $\partial_\theta p = \partial_\phi t$ to argue those are constant.
also, proof?
@0celo7 Over full circles.
Oh, from long ago: $\omega = t\mathrm{d}\theta + p\mathrm{d}\phi$ with $t,p$ smooth functions.
Yes
I thought there was a $\xi$ in there somewhere
dunno why
21:41
$a(\omega)$ is a priori still dependent on $\phi$ and $b(\omega)$ on $\theta$.
yes, how are they not?
By the...FUNDAMENTAL THEOREM OF CALCULUS!
(I now have a headache and cannot/don't want to figure it out)
that's a little dramatic
$\partial_\phi \int t\mathrm{d}\theta = \int (\partial_\phi t)\mathrm{d}\theta = \int (\partial_\theta p)\mathrm{d}\theta = 0$ since the integration is over a circle without boundary.
So $a(\omega)$ is constant in $\phi$ and so is $b(\omega)$ in $\theta$.
Thus $a,b$ are constants, and $\omega - \frac{a}{2\pi}\mathrm{d}\theta - \frac{b}{2\pi}\mathrm{d}\phi$ is exact. (use the integration condition from the beginning)
I can't find it in me to care that I have no clue why it's exact
whatever
this book is ruined for me now
great.
@ACuriousMind if you want to tell me I'll look at it later...but I'm doing other things now
21:50
@0celo7 It's really just plugging the form I claimed is exact into your result from the start that $\int t\mathrm{d}\theta = 0 = \int p\mathrm{d}\phi$ means exactness.
oh, I see that now
hence the $2\pi$ to cancel the integrals
ok, thank you
@ACuriousMind sorry for this...math is just confusing me more and more lately for some reason
@0celo7 Gettin' old, eh?
@ACuriousMind no, but I'd really like to know why I'm such an idiot lately
well, I am older today
did adulthood make me dumb?
It's your birthday? :O
Yes.
I told you earlier...
22:02
Happy birthday, then!
18 hours ago, by 0celo7
this is an adult room now
18 hours ago, by 0celo7
no more children in here :)
@ACuriousMind thank you
@0celo7 Too cryptic for me when I read that shortly after waking up :/
@ChrisWhite Ah, that explains the questions we've been getting on Astronomy about that star. I knew that it had made the news somehow, but I was unaware of some of the other claims being made.
Ok so (at least for spinless free propagating tachyon field) either it is already nonlocal to start with, or that it is local but subluminal or it exponentially grows (unstable)

But how to formulate the interacting case with ordinary fields/particles, or is the free propagating case sufficient to illustrate everything?
dirac equation solution for tachyons? or some EOM that can handle spin of any number?

So far I only seen the non interacting case (because they rule the interaction case out by runaway generation of cherenkov radiation), but is there really no go for the interacting case also?
22:24
There's not a lot of papers on tachyons unfortunately
Most of the modern ones are related to tachyon condensation
Where the field ceases to be tachyonic
yeah, the only relevant ones I found are in response to the OPERA neutrino anormally, which I am not sure if they are good reference given the experiment itself is a cable error
Currently trying to solve dirac equation with tachyon mass term
Didn't read it yet but it may be of interest
22:57
@ACuriousMind See the sentence in the wiki article starting with "One then defines the k-th"
no one says anything about vector spaces over $\mathbb{R}$
"Finally, covariant wave equations are given for each unitary irreducible representation of the Poincar´e group with non-negative mass-squared. Tachyonic representations are also examined."
Oh little groups
You never let me down
"As shown in Wigner’s classic work [1] in four dimensions, there are four types
of irreducible representations of the Poincar´e group. Two describe massless
and massive elementary particles with definite helicity and spin, respectively.
However, Nature does not seem to use the other two: one that describes particles
with space-like momenta [2], tachyons which move faster than the speed of light,
and the others that describe massless states with an infinite number of integer
or half-odd integer unit-spaced helicities, dubbed by Wigner Continuous Spin
The horror
"There is no analogous cure for the CSR, for which the obstacles are indeed
formidable: negative norm states, non-locality, and acausality [3], and according
to Wigner himself [4], infinite heat capacity of the vacuum."
Goddamn
I've never heard of CSR but now I am intrigued
23:17
@0celo7 Well...technically, it's not the quotient as vector spaces, but the quotient as abelian groups (which coincide in this case). The article is sloppy to not explicitly state the category the quotient is taken in, though.
@ACuriousMind fucking categories
Oh wait
Are the CSR the ones where you take the infinite dimensional rep of the Lorentz group
@ACuriousMind I really should read Hatcher...I have zero time for all of this :(
No clue if I can take algebraic topology either
:(
@0celo7 Why in such a hurry to learn EVERYTHING? Just relax and enjoy your birthday, get drunk, kick some handegg or whatever you Americans do.
obe
obe
23:34
@0celo7 hbd
@Secret :
0
Q: General theorems on tachyon propagation?

SlereahI was reading the quite nice answer of QMechanic on the topic of compact support tachyon fields not propagating faster than light, but this case is a rather simple one, free scalar field in flat space. Are there any more general theorems on this? Let's say, for a field transforming under the ta...

23:53
@ACuriousMind In a colloquium, still have a crapload of homework to do.
00:00 - 19:0019:00 - 00:00

« first day (1810 days earlier)      last day (3417 days later) »