IMPORTANT! Don't forget that the geometry has to work with two cycles, the Star Cycle (destructive) and the Circular Cycle (creative)

I think it's useful for me to keep updating the "Mattbat 9-World" to demonstrate the concepts, so I don't step on your Mattbatt 7-World process.

Check out how the 9-World looks with the Creative Cycle added:

Also note the changes:

-"Viriditas" instead of Wood, to make it mean the lifeforce (I think will be much better than "life" as an element, and still relates to the wood in mage's staves)

@DukeZhou the creation (circle I am assuming) and destructive semms pretty cool, though the current creation cycle makes little sense. It could be changed , however

-Now Earth and Wind are both "grey". Gives it more balance I think.

@TheMattbat999 I disagree with you on the meaning:

Light allows growth of plants

Plants break down and create living soil

Earth (topography) creates the conditions for air currents which make lightening

Lightening creates fire

Fire burns down to black ash

in darkness everything freezes

Winds sweep down across the ice

Winds bring the clouds that make rain

the water evaporates and rises to heaven

Ok, now that it is explained, I think I get it

but it's not the only way to do it

part of the reason i'm doing the 9-World, is so you have to remake it in your own image for the 7-World

Would a creation cycle be do-able from this setup?

Explain to me the destructive cycle first, so I'm sure we're on the same page

(Also, on the next pass on your graphic, think about alternating the arrows between dark and light, to clarify)

water > fire > ice > life > earth > lightning > wind >water

@DukeZhou I will update it soon

I get the path, what I'm asking for is the meaning. The creative cycle is just going to be linking those elements around the perimeter clockwise or counter clockwise

but can symbolic meaning be convincingly applied to the sequence?

(i'm sure it can, but I want to know your logic, since it's your world)

(Ps underlined grey = good, underlined black = bad, and underlined blue = neutrL)

So that looks to me like Life is surrounded by Darkness. It might be better if the neutral element formed a margin between the Dark and Light elements

(Note that on the 9-World, I made two elements neutral, on the horizontal axis, between Light and Darkness)

One works, but two is more balanced. Also strengthens characters who want to play neutral instead of good or evil

@DukeZhou maybe a non-lopping cycle? As in water freezes to make ice, Lightning (energy) fuels life, life makes heat, heat fuels wind, and wind moves the earth to shape it. So they aren't fully connected, but related

And creates an imbalance between the power of good and evil

@TheMattbat999 nope. you need both cycles to be loops, ideally.

there's another way to approach it, but it's much more complicated.

@DukeZhou well... idk then

Do you want me to try an arrangement of the 7-World, based on your destructive cycle?

@DukeZhou sure. That would help!

Let's see if we can break it down by brainstorming together

What are the two most evil elements and the two most good elements?

I'm guessing EVIL[Fire,Lightening] GOOD[Water,Earth]

@DukeZhou fire and lightning are the super evils and water and earth are the super goods

So in the middle that leave Ice, Wind, and Life.

I might make Wind (spirit) good, and Ice (cold) evil...

Yes. Ice is slightly good, life practically ignores the fight, and wind is slightly chaotic

ic

Ice melts to make water

water forms clouds that make lightening

electricity powers living beings

living beings create fire as a tool

heat creates convection (wind)

wind shapes the terrain

the land allows glaciation

Wow. I never would have thought all that up!

but I don't fully understand why lightening beats wind in the destructive cycle

"abstract thinking, a specialty" :)

@DukeZhou Lightning changes the air (refer to the Nitrogen cycle)

PS if you get a chance, could you mention your being consulted by DukeZhou and Fundamental Combinatronics? You're my only client aside from MClass Games, and at FC, we consult pro-bono on interesting projects!

@TheMattbat999 re: lightening, that makes sense. you smell ozone after a lightening strike

so the lightening zaps the air

@DukeZhou Wait... Wind and Lightning could be swapped for a better logic

that was the way I did it on 9-World.

Earth blocks wind, lightning shocks water, wind conquers lightning

with combinatorial design, never be afraid to try swapping things out with each other. may work, may not, but ideally you exhaust every possible combination to determine which configuration is ideal for your purposes

@TheMattbat999 that sounds better to me

@DukeZhou yep

is the light/dark balance maintained, in terms of and equal number of darks beating lights as lights beating darks?

another type of combinatorial swapping is the alignment of the elements. it's possible one or another may switch sides. (I'm noticing this has been evolving already since yesterday)

you could also think about if something like 2 evil elements, 2 good elements, and 3 neutral elements (good/neutral, neutral/neutral, bad/neutral) might expand the possibilities for character development, by having three full, robust alignments instead of two

@DukeZhou yes. Also, now to adjust the creation cycle...

Lightning creates fire, heat/energy fuels life, life breathes air, clounds let it rain, water ffreezes into ice, and now I am stuck on earth's interactions

what generates earth and what does it lead to?

(i may have some ideas)

Well, glaciers can shape the earth, but nothing for lightning

glaciers may retreat to free the land

the land is the grounding that draws the lightening

(if I have the sequence correct, that is...)

Yes you did. I will go write this down...

@DukaZhou I gotta go afk for thd rest of the night. See ya!

Well, nevermind. I got a few hours

I got about a half hour myself

once you get the element sequences arranged in a way that makes sense to you, he next step is going to be filling in the planes for the bounded and elemental regions

note also that the creative cycle paths form a loose boundary, so campaigning in the inner part of the elemental realm could be more hand-crafted, bordering the bounded realms

while the areas outside the creative path boundaries would be much more formless and chaotic

I was thinking : fire, large plane of volcanic planes. Water, endless ocean with small islands. Wind, connectes floating platforms with a green sky and an endless drop if you fall. Earth, rocky canyons and mountains. Light, endless angelic city.

Q: what graphics tool are you using to make your diagram? (I'm using photoshop, which makes tweaking really easy)

Darkness, literal Hell, flame spouts everywhere, really dark. Lightning, realm.of eternal thunder storms. Ice, freezing terrain.

I'd almost say the outer ocean, unlike the inner ocean, doesn't even have islands. only those strong in the water element, or with major boosts, could venture to the outer oceanus

@TheMattbat999 notice how in the 9-World, the elemental regions fuse the two pure elements that they are in between

so, between Dark and Fire I put the Fiery Abyss (the hot Hell)

But between Dark and Ice, I had the Frozen Wastes (the cold Hell)

@DukeZhou I was using PaintShop pro 9, until my computer updated and asked me for a bunch of login stuff I never had on it. I now use Paint 3d (Window's crap, though it worms)

Does paintshop allowed layered graphics?

@DukeZhou oh yes, those will be included, just listing out the basuc elements

Gimp is a good free tool with that function (a bit more cludgey that photoshop or illustrator, but gets the job done.)

@TheMattbat999 Yeah. You should definitely do the pure Elemental realms as well.

@DukeZhou yes, but I can't access it now since my computer deleted it when it updated (clicking on the link now ask for the instillation disk to be put in)

Those maybe don't even have size or shape, are just endless expressions of the pure element, with roaming elemental foes and bosses, temples, etc.

@TheMattbat999 bummer on the the software. It really helps to be able to see it (for me mostly, as I'm not sure of your current sequence.)

But it sounds like you are on a roll! making good progress

@DukeZhou yes, like portals in Earth to other realms

Yeah. You can't just enter them.

@DukeZhou well, no free roam is actually added, just planned, though it won't be too difficult

@DukeZhou like orbs to activate them?

Maybe it's easier at first to get to the pure elemental regions by travelling though the hybrid-elemental regions, but once you get higher levels, or specific objects, you can travel straight to the elemental realms

@TheMattbat999 you could have different systems. So maybe it's orbs for direct teleport from earthly regions, but you need access. By contrast, if you don't have the object, you could travel there by the hybrid regions, or even the last earthly region that leads to the element

so in the triangle region where Fire is the point, there could be a gateway to Fire

@DukeZhou ok...

but that's an intersection great power, so the gateway has a mega boss

so only really high-level characters could defeat that gate guardian

lower-level characters would have to take the long way

@DukeZhou yes! And they drop the orbs, letting easier (or at least more convenient) travel to the realms

@DukeZhou or maybe you can only explore so much without ghe orb?

tbh, i think the orbs should be just for transport, but maybe orbs of different power transport you deeper into the elemental realm

so higher level characters would prefer more powerful orbs, but in some cases might only have access to a lower level orb, based on what city they are in, or temple or pit

maybe they can pay some hedge wizard to use a crappy fire orb, but they need enough fame to get into the imperial palace to get access to the imperial fire orb

Ok... so different orb tiers allow more exploration

or they're out in some frontier zone, and don't want to have to travel to where a powerful orb is, so they use a closer, less powerful orb

@TheMattbat999 I was going to say put you deeper into the element, in terms of higher level foes and bosses, but your idea is really interesting

in your conception, the size of the elemental realm in a given instance is a function of the power of the orb!

that is really cool.

Good... I gotta get to work! Also, I got Paint Shop Pro to open, but the normal icon don't work. I have to open a picture with "Open with..."and click it there

aaah, Windows

ps- I gotta go offline in a few minutes, but I'll check back in a little later. Definitely post the new graphic when you make it!

@DukeZhou ok

Random thought: if you use 16bit registers for the elemental attributes, and a player maxes the stat, they can be said to have "won" the game, and since they can't advance any higher, their character s converted to a god or a an Istari, or other elemental powers like Beorn

and roam the world as NPCs

@DukeZhou or possibly you can "reset" so you can replay in the same save?

Weapons from left to right:axe, dagger, halberd, hammer, mace, sword, bow, and staff

if it's multiplayer, are there really saves?

re: weapons, looks good!

@DukeZhou well, there is singleplayer too, so.... also reset would work for multi, too.

re: Immortalizing maxed characters, imagine if your character becomes an Immortal. You start a new character and encounter the Immortalized character in a campaign using the new character.

other players would encounter it too.

Reset is not necessary at all, but if used, I'd suggest maybe making it a cataclysmic event that resets the world, but doesn't erase the history based on previous play.

remember, this is a set of games played in a sim, as opposed to a mere game

when you structure the universe this way, it can continually generate storylines, so you don't need to think in a save/reset context.

think games like World of Warcraft and Eve Online

Ok, that makes sense....

save/reset tends to be required for linear games

this game may be 2D, but it's non-linear and cyclic (infinite)

by imprinting the history of game actions into the fabric of the sim, you create a narrative condition

rpg's need narratives, but usually they are linear or static

your narratives arise out of the laws of the universe, the way they manifest, and the players choices

you might have cataclysms when the universe goes out of balance, to reset the equilibrium, hearkening a new age

if the imbalance was in favor of Dark, it is an evil age, where Light is the underdog

and vice-versa

there might even be some underdog bonus, so the ages will tend toward flipping back and forth between light and dark, but not exclusively

@DukeZhou well, though the game is nonlinear, you still need to be able to save in offline, singleplayer play, though that doesn't have to also include linear stuuf. It can just save the condition of the world, player's stats and location

@TheMattbat999 save for sure, but it's more automatic, based on the most recent game state when the game engine quits. (On pc, when they exit, but when it's on a server, it need never quit)

@DukeZhou yes. Well, what of if you die?

@TheMattbat999 most common way is to get resurrected

the distinction between WOW and Eve is that in WOW, you keep your stuff. In Eve, you lose your stuff.

Both ways are valid, but Eve is more realistic

You can lose some power when you die, so it sets you back a little--has to be some penalty

it partly depends on how easy vs. hard it is to die, based on the combat mechanics. assuming rational decision making (like not going to the hardest boss with a new char) if players were able to reliably retreat when losing a battle, it would be more feasible to have them lose their items when they actually die.

plus, the lost item would still be out in the world, and they could even track down and kill the foe that has it to get it back...

@DukeZhou yeah, since losing your stuff would be too hard to deal with (just a stat lowering would suffice)

but yeah, although it can be implemented, losing stuff is a brutal mechanic, and most players seem to prefer the WOW way

@DukeZhou yeah

remind me of your current destructive cycle with alignment when you get a chance (i.e. fire/evil > ice/slight-good etc.

if I get a chance I will diagram them up

ps- the items could even lose power or charge or something too, so that the player has to reboost/recharge them as a side adventure

Here you go. I gotta go to sleep. Good night!

back at ya

I had to play around with the position of a few elements, but tried to maintain the destructive sequence of Water > Fire > Ice which seems central to your model

this config allows a gradient between dark and light, with Life (viriditas) right at the center.

wind is neutral/dark because it's between the two pure dark elements

ice is neutral/light because it's between the two pure light elements

@DukaZhou so what if we swapped Lightning's and Earth's roles? As in, Lightning is good and Earth is bad, so we bould keep the current destruction cycle and add the gradient of good and evil?

Swap showed above, grey is good, black is evil, and blue is neutral

Also, I knida now, thinking about the flow of the game, I think we could toss out the turned based mechanics, keeping stats and damage calculations, and make it purely open world. If you ever played "Drawn to life", the movement of the player is top down, but he moves and looks like a side scroller (while in town), and this would be the look we could go for. See "Draw to Life" has a side scroller combat, but we could...

Go alll out topdown and just use the system of how they did the in-town look of that game, even when fighting, creating a unique experience.

And you get to use different attacks. An overhead swing that doesn't do as much damage as the rest, but consumes less stamina. Hits up and sideways. A thrust attacks that does more damage and hits down and sideways. Finally, a lunge attack that does the most damage, but consumes the most stamina and only hits sideways. This is melee, of course. Bi5ws and Magic rely on the player to aim and shoot.

After some reviewing, this is my final elemental creative and destruction cycle chart with layout of the universe.

@TheMattbat999 Top-down would be awesome. (I was thinking doing a side scroller would be an interesting reduction to see how the world expresses in a 2D output, and really, I was thinking initially about a text game, but top down is optimal for this conception.)

I don't see any reason not to throw out the turn based, but would caution you that actual combat irl is turned-based. What I mean by that is sequence of moves.

One one combatant attacks, the other counters (ideally), which leads to a sequence of counters and counter-counters until one of two outcomes:

1. stalemate

2. the defender is overcome

This could be implemented in a non-turn based context though. the question is how much do you want strategy to play a role at the:

A. Logistics layer

B. Strategic layer

C. Tactical layer

Logistical and Strategic layer are easy to emphasize strategy, but at the tactical, you run the risk of becoming a button masher. nevertheless, I think there are some innovations that would balance the choice / time ratio.

@TheMattbat999 re: Elements config, you nailed it. THAT looks like a real universe to me. Couldn't have done a finer arrangement myself.

I did one thing—flipped the star vertically. I think you will agree it make a lot of sense:

What you have is there is a nicely balanced asymmetry, the core requirement of deterministic games

Life is right up at the top, which is where consciousness stands (the mind, if you will.)

Fire is the left arm, lightning the left hand

Wind is the right art, water the right hand.

Notice the coloring of the regions per the gradient.

(I think it's clear Earth and Ice are gray. Notice they also form a triangle with Life.)

Those are the left and right foot. Feet are all about movement which is transition

thus earth and ice make the two sides of the gray spectrum:

This way you have margins between the Dark and Light elemental regions on both sides.

@DukeZhou this is exactly how I invisioned the gradient version would look!

I tweaked the demi-elemental regions slightly, because you need settings with infinite roam

Olympus is a very good idea b/c it can be a mountain you can never get to the top of

the Celestial City, likewise, is endless

I used Gehenna, the Hebrew word from the Old Testament for the fiery hell.

Yes, all are going to be infinite. One thing about Olympus is that maybe you should start at the top and never get to the bottom?

Frozen falls didn't seem endless enough, but maybe I am wrong about that?

Thoigh it isn't completely needed, it could be an endless waterfall(s) to explore

Flaming Forest though felt like it could be a very exciting region

So you start at bottom and never reach top

lots of natural hazards

@TheMattbat999 re: Olympus? Yeah, you climb and climb, but can never quite reach the top. Very Greek mythology.

@DukeZhou yes with dead trees that come to life as baddies and random fire spouts that shoot fire enemies everywhere (or just alot of fire)

@DukeZhou ok

plus, the trees are burning, and they could fall on you

That would be cool.

re: Olympus, since it's in the dark region, maybe it could be ruled by Diis (Dis Pater, the anti-Zeus)

Yeah.

He might have black lightning bolts lol

And a quest could be to help Zeus reclaim his throne? Gives an advantage to the good side

i don't even know if any game has done black lightning!

What about naming the pure elemental places?

Yeah--since it's a sim, someone could restore Zeus and shift the gradient a little

and someone else could re-topple Zeus to shift it back :)

re: names, that's why I'm pushing so hard for Viriditas

Yep. Maybe similar quest to shift the gradient around?

@DukeZhou cause that sounds better than "Life"?

it's a little know Latin word for the life force, the green, generativity. it can even mean ideas, as in creativity

yeah, life works conceptually, but not a very exciting word choice

Ok. That makes sense.

Tolkien invented names, but they were based on real languages. D&D heavily incorporated names, especially old, archaic words

thus Gehenna instead of regular old Hell

all kinds of opportunities for that stuff

Of course, Gehenna is going to explain itself. Low visibility, tortured souls, and fire everywhere (though some walkways to allow non-player-cooking travel

(if you like fantasy novels, you should read Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Executioner series. He uses all of these fantastic words like Carnifex. Imagine an evil class of opponent called that! Carne from the Latin for meat, as in "butcher" or "executioner")

You could have a Grand Carnifex an evil boss

just shreds people with a massive falchion (cleaver-like sword)

@DukeZhou which realm would he rule? Gehenna will be ruled by Bathmolement(The Devil), an unbeatable foe (to make sure Darkness always exist).

The Grand Carnifex wouldn't rule an element--but he could be Bathm's executioner

The guy Bathmo sends out to "tcb" when the job really needs to get done

Like if a character is going around destroying all the dark shrines and temples, the Grand Carnifex is sent out to hunt them

but you could have regular carnifexes being sent out for lesser offenses

ps- you could put the Frozen Falls where the cold sea is...

I'd call the infinite storm the Maelstrom

(perfect region to approach the Gates of Lightning, btw!)

I'd say Frozen Forest approaching the Gates of Life (still call them the Gates of Life, even though the element may be called Viriditas--that way, everyone gets it without having to google viriditas)

Howling Grotto could be the region leading to the Gates of Wind

The Chasm would be my pick for the region approaching the Gates of Earth

(a chasm separating the Chilly Mountains and Olympus)

ps- I can't read your graphic for what is in the small Fire/Life and Fire/Wind regions

but I might suggest Shangrila in the little Earth/Ice/Life triangle

Ok.

I gotta go afk for while. See ya!

ok

Ok, I am back!

@DukeZhou it is the "Last Edge", the edge of life (burning forest), but there isn't a fire and wind location. What are you talking about?

I really like the Skylands, and was thinking maybe you might consider a Lavalands (very hazardous like the Burning Forest, but different type of hazards/obstacles

@DukeZhou yeah. The Skylands is literally a bunch of connectex, floating rocks and, if you fall, you fall foever. Also, the sky is green there.

I wish I had an image of what I had planned... it isn't big boulders, it is like cobblestone walkways (but just the rocks, not the actual platform beneath them) that float.

@DukeZhou also, I belive this setup of the elements is perfect, doable, cohesive, and possibly the final draw up of it!

yeah, that universe really makes sense, feels real, and will function.

What did you think if the description of the SkyLands?

sorry--was dealing with Apple Developer bs for getting Mbrane live on the app store. (PS you'd better try it out, and tell all your friends! We really need some app store reviews too.)

I've been developing this system we've been using to build your universe for decades, but it was only after I cracked the [M] (mbrane) mechanics, that I finally understood how these systems actually can work. :)

RE: Skylands, I think people will love that!

I think these zones are going to provide contexts for very satisfying, rich, and varied gameplay

@DukeZhou I will check it out. What does it do?

do you have android or iPhone/iPad?

Android

Cool. it's already up on the app store. In terms of what Mbrane is, it depends on how you look at it:

-Grand Strategy reduced to it's most compact form

-The first truly original game in the same class as Chess, since Chess (circa 500 AD)

-A struggle for territory in a condition of rapidly diminishing resources

(i.e. "Go is the Ancient Game, Chess the Medieval, and [M] the modern game".)

-An abstract strategy game of pure skill

Well, it is too big to download right now, though next time I get on some wifi I will try to get it!

-A non-chance, perfect information, partisan, sequential, finite zero sum game.

(Too big since I have limited data)

@TheMattbat999 really? it's < 10 MB

-One of the top 10 boardgames of all time, and one of the top 3 strategy games of all time

or simply, as it's called on the Patent:

@DukeZhou well, my parents usally don't want me to download stuff, and since they pay the bills, I can't get it

"Multiplayer Partisan Sudoku"

Like not get it ever, or just not right this minute?

The app is free, and there are NO in-app purchases...

and, it's a strongly educational game

@DukeZhou well, one day soon, once I go to Walmart or somewhere with free WiFi

you can tell them it will improve your math, logic and analytical thinking skills

ic ;)

all about that free wi-fi. ok, just so long as you promise and don't forget!

@DukeZhou I won't. I shall go write it down

cool. gotta go afk for a little. I'll check back in in a few. If you feel like that last graphic of your design is getting there, the last thing that needs to be filled in is the small regions

I really liked your Howling Grotto--maybe that could go where the cold sea used to be...

Written

@DukeZhou well, that is Wind + Life (where Windy Steep is)

Windy Steep

What about Windy Spire?

in Ancient Greek, the language of the New Testament, the words for with and spirit are joined

psuke is the psyche or the soul, understood as breath or wind

Wind = Spirit = Spire

(more poetic that way;)

IMPORTANT:

I think it's going to be useful to distinguish between "Topology" and "Topography"

the topological conception is useful because you could warp the geometry to get the actual, expressed map to be less straight-liney

the only requirement is that the intersections are maintained.

in other words, the actual size of bounded regions, and the shape of the boundaries could be different, without changing any of the connections.

I wouldn't worry about that now, but it's good to have in mind if you want a less regularized map.

Like with the Windy Spire. That zone is formed by Wind&Green, but Earth has the widest cone at that location (widest distance between the two line segments that intersect at Earth)

So the Windy Spire, conceptually, is Earth jutting up (life) into the realm of wind (the sky).

On the "Razor Forest" (working title) I was thinking it was a region of volcanic glass--obsidian--sharpest edge known to man--brittle but far sharper than a surgeon's scalpel

"The Vortex" is a massive tornado

The "Smoking Sea" is waterbody with high volcanic activity--steaming instead of boiling b/c there's a touch of ice, but it's hard to see how ice integrates...