Goat Chat

12:00 AM

"World Tree" is because that the Viriditas triangle, and was thinking it would grow so high the top levels would be icy, but the roots would extend deep into the bowels of the earth

but those are just some ideas

The Mattbat999

1:09 AM

Those sound really cool! The new hectogram you presented is great!

Also, is the image of the mountains supposed to be the Wind Spire?

DukeZhou

Inspired by the Wind Spire!

ps- here's a visual reference for the Viriditas Ray or cone:

The Mattbat999

That is cool

DukeZhou

all of the elements, of course, have similar cones. I was thinking the World Tree section is the most strongly influenced by the Green, because it has the most "momentum" or "weight" at that distance compared to Ice and Earth cones

A spire juts up into the air like a tree

the obsidian forest is a kind of "forest"

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou I think the sprie whould be like a man-made tower, but plant growth inside. The obsidian forest should be like a forest, but where trees are made out of obsidian

DukeZhou

ps- the frozen forest doesn't have to be trees either--it could be giant stalagmites of ice jutting up from the landscape, hanging down from cliffs, and always in danger of falling

That's a cool idea for the obsidian forest

but for the spire, i'd urge you to revisit it being a natural formation instead of man-made

more an expression of the element that way

remember that all of these areas are natural, topographical formations

The Mattbat999

1:25 AM

Ok.. I will think about it...

DukeZhou

the structure layer, towns, temples, etc., goes on top of the topographical layer

another thing to consider is that it was originally a natural rock spire that over the millennia has been carved into a giant cathedral

so men made the rock into a proper tower, much higher than anything engineers could have built

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou now that makes more sense

DukeZhou

the tallest cathedrals are nothing compared to the Windy Spire

this is going to be a really cool universe.

The Mattbat999

Yep, with friggin random, epic stuff around every cornenr!

DukeZhou

but not totally random, right, but constrained randomness

The Mattbat999

1:28 AM

Well, yeah, but still

DukeZhou

influenced by the geometry, but still with room for some chaos

but I think I know what you mean

encounters and such

the cool thing is, unlike most other games, you have a mathematical structure to build your "dice rolls" on top of

ps- check out this list of Chinese Knights and their weapons. May give you some inspiration! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_Stars_of_Destiny

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou i gotcha, random but influenced by the geography

DukeZhou

exactly.

and like, you could do a thing where maybe free roam bosses are spawned on the opposite side of the world when characters achieve major victories (the universe re-balancing itself)

like if you destroy a fire temple, a carnifex spawns at the gates of fire and starts to seek you out.

but there could be other spawns that simply roam, and they're attracted to places like crossroads, where they wait for players to try and pass.

The Mattbat999

For the dice roll deal on the terrain, I think I will do a chunk system to where chunks are always linked and completely explorable (so there aren't areas completely blocked by rocks, cliffs, etc.

DukeZhou

totally--that's the best way

those are the only types of games i really like

and even games with huge maps, it always bothers me that there are edges. the endless elemental hybrid regions solve that problem, so nothing it artificial.

the world is real, based on real universal laws and constants, and unbounded, just like the universe

The Mattbat999

1:37 AM

And have different type of sub-chunks so the terrain doesn't repeat over and over.

Like a chunk ID could be "1, 1, 5, 4, 2, 3, 6, 9, 8" and that will create a different terrain than a chunk with "9, 2, 8, 0, 1, 1, 3, 6, 1"

DukeZhou

1:51 AM

ooh yeah

you might actually have 7-digit chunks to match the elemental cardinality

and do the math in base-7

I've found that harnessing symmetries can be an easy way to maintain balance and cohesion

The unbounded regions might be handled differently. For instance, it might be acceptable that the further you penetrate into the unbounded regions, the more uniform it gets.

i.e. as you get closer to the pure form (of the element) you can never quite reach

But the pure elemental regions, the orbs, are structured differently

the base elements generate the world, so with the orb realms, you can actually penetrate to the center where there's a palace or fortress, etc., where the ruler of that element sits

so the unbounded regions you can travel outward to infinity, but the orb regions is a journey to the center, with the distance dependent on the power of the orb you used to get there

likewise, the deeper you penetrate outward into the unbounded regions, and then cross-over to the pure elemental orb region, the closer you are to the center of the orb region

but if you take the hardest route, through the Elemental Gate at the vertex, beating the Elemental Guardian, you can go right to the center if you choose.

It's probably good to think about bounded/unbounded/elemental regions as separate types of universes

from a procedural standpoint, the way you generate them will be slightly different

Conceptually:

Elemental Regions (Orbs): The origin of the elements
Wild Regions (unbounded): Where the elements are let loose into the world
The Known World (bounded): Where civilization forms

ps- the Celestial City should be like Venice, because it combines wind and water

DukeZhou

2:59 AM

pps- you might think about having the triangle regions be home to the non-human races:

The Mattbat999

3:13 AM

How about High Elves from where you have marked Elves, Wood Elves where Gnomes are, and Djinn are called "Aetherians"? Other races are fine.

Ps-looking back on our conversations over the past few days, I feel like I have had a crash course in what I would call "Applied Geometry"

DukeZhou

3:36 AM

and don't forget Applied Semiotics! (the application of concepts to the geometry)

Tolkien had two races of elves too, the High Elves (light) and the Dark Elves. How would you feel about:
-World Tree Elves actually being the Wood Elves (because they're in a neutral region, and can be either bad or good)

-High Elves (elves of light) have their home in the Windy Spire.

the Wood Elves straddle the margin between light and darkness, but the High Elves defend the frontier of light against the Goblins

The Mattbat999

That would make more sense. Put it on the chart. Also, change "Djinn"to "Aertherian".

Back to Applied Semiotics:that is what I was kinda talking about. Using geometry for other purposes than measurements, like concepts

Also, back to the races, what are undines? Mermen?

DukeZhou

3:56 AM

Basically. It's the race of aquatic creatures, but the Undines are typically female...

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou well, I gotta go to sleep but don't forget to post the image of the changed chart!

DukeZhou

Also, you might consider Dwarves down at the world tree. We don't really associate them with trees, but it is the intersection of earth and ice, and they're right on the edge of the chasm, delving down into the earth...

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou ok, that is good

DukeZhou

I'll think more on the water ones--that's the hardest

cool. catch you later. I'll definitely upload the new chart shortly

The Mattbat999

See ya!

DukeZhou

4:05 AM

DukeZhou

10:18 AM

WEAPONS GUIDE:
This breakdown is moderately asymmetric, but based entirely on the Race/Weapon lines:

DWARVES
Offense: Axe
Defense: Hammer
Resists: Spear & Sword
Penalties: Arrow & Potions
Special: Iron Staff

TROLLS
Offense: Hammer
Defense: Club (staves)
Resists: Arrows& Damage
Penalties: Spear & Axe
Special: Falchion (cleaver sword)

DAEMONS
Offense: Great Sword & Great Axe
Defense: Spear & Arrow
Penalties: Hammer & Staves
Special: Drain energy (anti-grail)

GOBLINS
Offense: Spear
Defense: Nets (water)

The Mattbat999

7:37 PM

@DukeZhou now that can be the official map of the universe!

DukeZhou

7:57 PM

@TheMattbat999 Good deal. And PS: it's not just a crash course in Geometry, but Topology-- the vertexes, edges and shapes. (Topology is way more b@dass!)

Now I have some thoughts I want to present, just for you to consider, about a death/rez system. You don't have to go this direction, but I wanted to at least describe how it could work. Warning: it's long, but hopefully interesting reading!

================================================
Here’s a way you could do the death/item-loss mechanic in a way that doesn’t alienate players, and actually generates narratives (quests)

Imagine you’re fighting some Boss with a Legendary enchanted blade. Let’s call it the blade “Windshearer”. You die.

You wake up resurrected in the closest temple of the Element you are strongest in. You are diminished but alive.
- Extreme Vitality (energy) penalty (soul transport toll) - easy to recharge
- Slight loss of elemental power, slight increase in susceptibilities for foe’s elements.

The Mattbat999

8:18 PM

@DukeZhou I read. It sounds cool, but pretty complicated. I will have to think about it. I already thought out a fame and infamy system (somewhat simple. You have a single stat for it, but it moves up with good deeds and lowers with bad deeds. Different classes and races start out with different fame. E.g. a Goblin sorcerer will start with pretty low fame, and a high elf knight will start with high fame.)

DukeZhou

The Fame/Infamy is great, but I worry that our culture worships fame overly much, instead of Honor, which is much more important

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou ok. So honor instead of fame?

DukeZhou

Honor is based on doing good deeds, dishonor on bad deeds (Daemons want to be dishonorable!)

@TheMattbat999 I think fame/infamy is great, but should be based on beating bosses, wrecking temples ect.

Heroic deeds

Honor is more what you were talking about like helping NPCs, helping other characters aligned with your element

Being a good or bad character

But if you were only going to implement one, I'd say start with honor, then think about adding a fame mechanic on top of that, but that would just be my preference. Both are great.

Like Odysseus is very famous, but not very honorable (trickster)

Hector and Achilles are famous and honorable

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou Both could easily be added, so that ain't a problem

DukeZhou

The combinatorial possibilities of having both would greatly expand gameplay. It would also allow for more nuanced story/quest generation...

I also think the Neutrals are super important--remember Gandalf the Gray was his original form!

gets you out of that hard binary dynamic, since the universe is about the mixing of the elements

The Mattbat999

8:28 PM

@DukeZhou I think like a Human adventurers would start full out neutral.

DukeZhou

absolutely!

notice that humans don't have natural weapon boosts, but also don't have weakness. They are the race that can wield any weapon, use any magicks.

and dwarves are the closest to humans, being the neutral non-human race

ps- I'm feeling strong about Undines being a good classifier for all the aquatic races. it can include mermen/mermaids, sirens, kelpies and selkies, niads, etc.

The Mattbat999

I guess so.

Also, different classes change dishonor and fame. Sorcerers and Dark Knights start out slightly evil

Knights and mages start out good.

DukeZhou

I might say Sorcerers and Dark Knights start out slightly dishonorable, Knights and Mages slightly honorable, and Sellswords and Wizards neutral.

but no one starts out famous/infamous, unless they are the scion of a great family!

ps- adding the creative cycle arrow to the map (b/c only you and me get the direction without them;)

I'll also add the Elemental gates. Tell me if you like these names, or if you want tweaks:
-Gates of Life (Viriditas)
-Gates of Wind
-Gates of Ocean
-Gates of Ice
-Gates of Earth
-Gates of Storm
-Gates of Fire

also I should add the names for the 7 major elemental roads. (Again, let me know if you want tweaks):
-Green Road (Viriditas)
-Windy Road
-Coastal Road
-Ice Road
-Dusty Road
-Storm Road
-Burning Road

The Mattbat999

8:50 PM

@DukeZhou well, there isn't a Wizard class, but I gotcha. Also, Spell Swords are good, being opposite to Dark Knights (later I will show the class set-up) the gates and roads are fine, by the way

DukeZhou

I was thinking "Sellsword" is the Adventurer. (Like in Game of Thrones, you have honorable knights, dishonorable knights, and Sellswords, who are not knights and do both honorable and dishonorable things.)

I'm strong on the neutral class b/c it was a major factor in D&D's awesomeness, and players like me would likely want to play as neutral!

Adventurers are usually working on their own behalf, as opposed to Knights who serve a higher power.

"Shadow Knights" (evil) could be the opposite of "Paladins" (good), both weapons/magic wielders, and Spellswords, like Adventurers, could be neutral...

The Mattbat999

Oh. My Adventurer class was going to be one of the neutral classes.

DukeZhou

oh good. Adventurer is definitely a neutral class, conceptually speaking.

but "spellswords" doesn't convey goodness to me, whereas Paladins are historical and mythological good Knights with supernatural component

The Mattbat999

SpellSword, Mage, and Knight on good. Sorcerer, Dark Knight, and Tank on Evil. Archer and Adventurer neutral

Spe ll Swords could be swapped to Paladins

DukeZhou

So no good Tanks?

It could be:
EVIL: Sorcerers, Dark Knights, Shadow Knights, Juggernauts
GOOD: Mages, Knights, Paladins, Tanks
NEUTRAL: Wizards, Adventurers, Spellswords, Rogues (opposite of tank class)

The Mattbat999

9:03 PM

Well, I have (key:good class - bad class) Knight - Tank, Sorcerer - Mages, Dark Knight - SpellSword (or Paladin)

DukeZhou

ic Knights are opposite of Tanks, and Dark Knights are opposite of Paladins

that makes sense

still think you need a neutral caster, Wizards, to match the adventurer.

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou ok.

DukeZhou

also, I'm not so sure Archer has to be neutral specifically. Elves would be the class best with archery, but dark characters would still want it, as would neutrals...

The Mattbat999

Weapon setup for classes:Knight-polearm, Tanks-hammer, Dark Knight-axe, SpellSword-sword, Sorcerer-dagger, Mage-staff, Adventurer-sword?, Archer-bow.

DukeZhou

I wouldn't restrict the classes to weapon, but rather, use that weapons/race chart.

That way you get a really good mix.

Dwarf knights would get boosts with hammer and axe

The Mattbat999

9:09 PM

@DukeZhou well, it isn't the only weapon they can use, just their starting item.

DukeZhou

Elves get boots with bow and sword

Daemon knights get boots with spear and sword, axe and bows

etc.

The Mattbat999

Ok.... for the classes, maybe Archer good, Hunter neutral, and Sniper bad.

DukeZhou

based on the race tendencies. Humans would be the adaptable ones.

re: Bow classes--that would work

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou yes.

DukeZhou

do you see what I mean about the weapon choices based on race tendencies adding richness and variation? So that the melee classes will be varied, based on race and alignment, as opposed to all knight-class chars of all alignments using the same weapons

Dwarf knights would be boosted against Daemons in particular, but weak against Elves

based on Offensive & Defensive boosts for race/weapon, and race/weapon penalties/vulnerabilities

The Mattbat999

9:15 PM

Ok... so you get a weapon for race and a weapon for class. Also, maybe racial bonuses and weaknesses for stats? E.g. daemons have increase fire attributes, but weakness to water. Undines have strength to water, but weakness to lightning etc.

DukeZhou

I'd say weapon Affinities based on race determine what a character class for a give race will choose to wield or be given on start/ressurrect

Although, for the Archer class, obviously they would all use bows...

But like, there would never be Troll archers, just Goblin and Daemon archers for evil

but Goblins would suck at archery, whereas Daemons have some bow affinity

Undines use javelins instead of bows (can't use bows under water!)

Elves would always be the best archers.

Dwarves, like goblins, would suck at archery

The Mattbat999

Ok. Also, would a bow relie on dexterity of strength, or possibly a diiferent stat?

DukeZhou

Aetherials have Bow as their "special" so they would be good archers with a damage boost

I think dexterity is good for the Bow stat

IMPORTANT: We should relate the Stats to the Elements

Lightning: Dexterity : Bows

But chars can get any stat, regardless of alignment--it's more of a conceptual relationship relating to weapons use

Viriditas: Staves: Vitality (as in lifeforce energy)

Wind: Swords: Quickness/Alacrity

The Mattbat999

Weapon to element would make more sense, since later on special weapons (top weapons) could be added that also deal damage from their respective element

DukeZhou

Water: Grail/potions: Hitpoints/Health

@TheMattbat999 yeah. like you could enchant swords with any element, but Wind would always be the strongest boost for swords

The Mattbat999

9:25 PM

@DukeZhou well, not that, but like a super weapon, like Thor's Hammer

DukeZhou

you might also want to distinguish between Enchantment levels, like Normal, Heroic, Epic, Legendary

@TheMattbat999 Exactly! Hammers are earth. Strength is the attribute of Earth

Thus you could have a fire hammer, but the most powerful hammer in the universe would be the earth hammer, Thor's Mjolnir

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou well, more like lightning for the Hammer

As in legendary weapons from history as the last teir items

DukeZhou

Well, Thor may have been the Thunder god, but he never really uses lightning in the Myths...

All of Thor's stories are about his incredible Strenght!

But it could have a lightning enchant, to add some coolness, but really, Thor's Hammer is all about smashing power

The Mattbat999

But it might be weird for a Thunder God to weild a weapon of the Eartg

DukeZhou

Excalibur, the holy sword, would obviously be the greatest sword, yes?

The Mattbat999

9:29 PM

But I get your point

@DukeZhou yes... so it would be the light weapon

DukeZhou

And the hammer, earth/strength, is more neutral, so a char with the hammer could also be a lightening character

So Thor/Mjollnir could have some lightning in addition to main power of strength (earth)

Don't forget, hammer and clubs are the heaviest weapons

take the most strength to wield!

The Mattbat999

I guess... maybe mixed weapons? So Thor's pulls power from both Lightning and Earth and Excalibur could pull from Light and Water (since the lady of the lake gave it to King Arthur)

DukeZhou

perfect!

That totally works with the Creative cycle!!!

Lightning > Earth

Water > Wind

The Mattbat999

(Earth creates Lightning, Wind creates Water?)

DukeZhou

"Action leads to solidification" Lightning > Earth

"Fortification leads to stagnation" Earth > Ice

"Fixity gives way to change" Ice > Water

"Happiness leads to renewal of the Spirit" Water > Wind

(I think I had that for the Creative cycle on the last map post...)

Doesn't have to go that direction, but works really well for explaining Mjollnir and Excalibur

The Mattbat999

9:39 PM

I didn't see the new creation cycle. Could you change it back to the one we had? Earth to Lightning to Fire to Life to Wind etc.

DukeZhou

Sure, I can switch the direction. But take a quick look at how I explain it currently in the counter-clockwise

We need to provide a rationale for the clockwise version...

The Mattbat999

Also, Mjollnir and Excalibur don't have to follow the cycle completely.

DukeZhou

BUT

I think Mjollnir and Excalibur also work with the Clockwise

Lightning > Earth

Water > Wind

as you mentioned

The Mattbat999

They do.

DukeZhou

so I'll make it clockwise, and figure out the conceptual rationale (but let me know if you have insights on that direction for the CC;)

b/c sometimes you have insights I might miss

The Mattbat999

9:43 PM

Re: clockwise creation cycle. Makes sense, but 1 it is not as aparant as counterclockwise, and 2 not as much as creation as CC

DukeZhou

sorry- totally confused (slightly dyslexic)

Counter-clockwise is what you're actually wanting

Lightning > Earth > Ice > Water > Wind etc.

The Mattbat999

No, this one:

DukeZhou

that is correct, yes? (got it confused in my head)

The Mattbat999

yesterday, by The Mattbat999

I am a little confused, don't worry!

DukeZhou

it's because I flipped the star upside down!

hold on for a few minutes--I repost the char with the arrows for the CC

The Mattbat999

9:46 PM

Oh! Either way, it needs to follow earth creates Lightning, which creates Fire etc.

DukeZhou

yup- we're both confused. The new chart with CC direction arrows will be what you were wanting

give me about 5 min to throw it together for you

The Mattbat999

Ok

@DukaZhou no wait.... clockwise with new chart

You know what? Just do the new chart and show it. We'll adjust from there.

Are ya done yet?

@DukaZhou you done yet :P

@DukaZhou ya done yet :)

DukeZhou

10:06 PM

you can have it done quickly, or have it done right ;)

done!

1 sec. 1 mistake. gonna correct

The Mattbat999

Make the creation text brighter in the evil gradient please

DukeZhou

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou perfect!

To show our progress

DukeZhou

It was a good idea to reduce the 7 to 9! (less complexity. We can always save the 9-World for DD2, after DD1 is a smashing success!)

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou idk, I like the 7 world thing. Seems adding a 9 world in a sequel would be an unnecessary change

DukeZhou

10:17 PM

In the 7 world, I can already see the Mythos emerging. Dwarves, a neutral race, guard the World Tree generated by Viridas (also neutral). They delve into the Chasm, and get their wood from the Frozen Forest, but spend most of their time mining in the Chilly Mountains

@TheMattbat999 I like the 9 because it has more regions and connections, but definitely a lot more work on the conceptual side, not to mention much more complex implementation

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou yeab

DukeZhou

But the cool thing about this system is it can be expanded. Works for any odd number of points >3

it was a good idea to avoid the 5 pointed start so people don't think the game is from the devil ;)

But the seven pointed star is perfect. 7 is the lucky number, after all!

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou definitely

DukeZhou

I'm glad you're happy with the current status. I think it's a great universe with huge potential

DD may not look as good as the AAA games, but the gameplay will be superior to any previous RPG, even the Bethesda games

most designers of RPG design randomly, based on general ideas, and then have to work backwards to balance

This system starts with the math, and then guides the designer into how the ideas fit in and interact

and the typical RPG will never have the cohesion of Tolkien--this system is basically re-creating, in a mathematical/geometrical/topological manner, the rules to a universe--total cohesion, depth and believability

The Mattbat999

Yeah. I got ideas for the Wind Spire.... tall, thin mointain with a bunch of caves going all trhu it.

DukeZhou

10:24 PM

re: Wind Spire--that will be super cool

At some point we should talk about the Magic system

I'm thinking the caster class should be harder to play well--requiring greater player intelligence, so the "smart kids" are the best wizards

i.e. since we have this math/geometry/topology system, we should make real life intelligence necessary to be a great caster

as compensation to the "less smart" kids, the melee classes might advance faster.

but casters are ultimately more powerful--equal level fighter and caster--caster wins easily. (fighter needs major enchants to stand up against a caster of equal level)

this would also have the effect of making player casters more rare, so they would be more valued in parties

even a low-level caster is useful, and a party would be happy to have them, but a low-level party with a high-level caster would be incredibly fortunate, and be able to delve much deeper

(Think of Gandalf accompanying the party in the Hobbit)

food for though...

The Mattbat999

Spells cast by drawing pattern on screen. Better spells = more complicated patterns?

The Mattbat999

10:42 PM

@DukaZhou and puzzle to solve to unlock a spell?

DukeZhou

@TheMattbat999 that's an interesting idea! (re: drawing patterns)

yes--casting should require a real understanding of the structure (geometry) of the universe

but I'd say the puzzles are figuring out what the connections means, and how to harness them

(i.e. that's not in the manual, they have to experiment and learn, and they may guard the knowledge they have attained!)

The Mattbat999

Yes. What of the puzzle to harness a spell?

DukeZhou

well, basically, those puzzles would be the based on the topology of the universe--vertices, edges and regions (bounded & unbounded)

starting from points, they trace a design, and the number of intersections and regions formed would dictate the spells, based on how the design relates to the elemental geometry

it will take some thinking, and analysis of the universe map (which I consider fun;)

gotta go afk for a bit--will check back

The Mattbat999

11:01 PM

See ya!

DukeZhou

11:39 PM

So it occurs to me if you have a class for each alignment, pure melee, melee/casting hybrid casting, progression would be something like this:

•Tanks/Adventurers/Knights: Melee Levels Fastest (quick leveling)

•Sorcerers/Wizards/Mages: Magic Levels Slowest (slow leveling, but levels are more powerful)

•Shadowknight/Spellsword/Paladin: Must level Magic&Melee (requires the most patience to reach high-levels)

•Sniper/Hunter/Archer: Shooting levels slower than Melee, faster than Magic (medium speed leveling)

This has huge advantages:

FIGHTERS: A fighter could level quick, but if they want to add bow skills as a secondary, that takes longer. So the brawler is a quick for impatient players, but the "compleat warrior" who has archery as a secondary, requires more patience.

But also, each weapon skill levels separately, so a player can get really good on a single weapon quick, then add new weapons and level them. So it's fast for players to get good enough to beat Bosses, but becoming adaptable (many weapons) takes more commitment.

CASTER/FIGHTERS: characters in these classes will probably level unevenly, which is really good. You might have a Paladin weak in magic but strong in sword, or a Shadowknight that is good in magic but weak in sword.

But the greatest Paladins, Spellswords & Shadowknights, those who are high-level in magic and multiple-melee weapons, maybe even archery and javelin, would be truly legendary.

CASTERS: Would still be more powerful magically than caster/fighters because they only really level magic. But caster/fighters are dangerous foes for pure casters b/c caster/fighters don't need the buffs pure fighters need.

(a huge complaint on WOW the years I was playing was that "paladins are OP!". But the problem is not that Paladins are OP (of course they are!), it's that you can level a Paladin just as fast as a Fighter. This was never a problem for D&D because Paladins leveled painfully slowly. So, sure, they're OP, but that's because they're so hard to level, and so few people are willing to commit to that.)

SHOOTING CLASS: Archers and Spearthrowers may be in some ways the most lethal--like Zeus' lightning bolt--striking enemies down from afar, with a chance of critical. But they are also the most vulnerable class, especially at close range.

But just like fighters can learn Archery/Javelin as secondary skills, so can Archers/Spearthrowers learn melee weapons as a secondary skill.

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