Axtell

ASCII-only

11:00

@EriktheOutgolfer :/ golfing doesn't give much room for creativitivy

also subjective

Erik the Outgolfer

@ASCII-only that's not always the case

user202729

@ASCII-only Huh? That's language dependent. Golfing in golfing language is harder than in normal languages.

ASCII-only

Sure.

Erik the Outgolfer

and subjectivity is exactly the reason why the users do the upvotes and not the software

ASCII-only

But the important thing is that it's not always the case

@user202729 That means there's less room for creativity...

Erik the Outgolfer

11:01

@user202729 s/harder/easier

ASCII-only

@EriktheOutgolfer Hmm, true

Mr. Xcoder

I have a suggestion which I am aware might have a lot of flaws (and might be disliked by most): Downvotes must be explained with solid arguments, or otherwise invalidated.

(IDK how this would become a thing nonetheless) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Erik the Outgolfer

I'd say downvotes shouldn't exist at all

Mr. Xcoder

Again, I agree.

Erik the Outgolfer

and upvotes would give 1 rep

Mr. Xcoder

11:03

Ugh... Why?

user202729

@EriktheOutgolfer So... close vote and delete vote?

ASCII-only

@EriktheOutgolfer Hmm, their role can be replaced with reports and comments

Erik the Outgolfer

@ASCII-only or counterexamples

ASCII-only

@user202729 and comment (also CV doesn't apply to answers...)

@EriktheOutgolfer that too

also.

Erik the Outgolfer

i.e. testcases where an answer fails but aren't in a question

ASCII-only

11:04

imo Q and A rep should be separate

user202729

/ What happens when you don't like an answer although it's valid? (e.g., hardcode OEIS sequence in the OEIS challenge)

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mr.Xcoder well, let's say that 1 rep is a contribution unit, then the general (rep sum) privileges will be based on those contribution units

@user202729 simple: you don't upvote

(based on my model, that is)

Mr. Xcoder

Also, I have a suggestion which might be better received. For each answer, we'd have a "golfing box" (different from the comments part), where people can suggest improvements, and the OP could simply press "ADOPT" to automatically use it (with TiO integration and credit to the helper).

user202729

@Mr.Xcoder It just differs by a constant scale factor.

ASCII-only

@Mr.Xcoder why not?

@Mr.Xcoder idea: just integrate TIO directly in to post format

Mr. Xcoder

11:06

@ASCII-only IDK it just seemed weird at first, but definitely got the point

ASCII-only

of course it's optional, e.g. for languages not on TIO

user202729

@EriktheOutgolfer Often on SE I upvote when I see an answer that can get shorter than mine (which often means answers in languages I don't know don't get upvote) and downvote answers I don't like (like the above).

ASCII-only

@Mr.Xcoder IMO 5/10 point votes is something I dislike

like why have large scores when you can scale down scores by 80% without losing information

Mr. Xcoder

gotcha

ASCII-only

Of course SE has -1 and -2 rep for downvotes so it's a bit better

Mr. Xcoder

11:08

Also I feel like the interest in PPCG has significantly dropped (ever since I joined), very few questions are posted and new users are either reluctant about posting answers or just give crappy answers.

Erik the Outgolfer

more like the questions have already been asked, and the answers have already been posted

Mr. Xcoder

Or that, but honestly I think there are infinitely many unique challenges one can come up with.

It would be great to develop a mobile app too (in parallel)

ASCII-only

well

IMO a mobile site + good design is enough

Mr. Xcoder

Yeah, anyway there are very few people around which have experience with both Android and IOS (not even thinking of Windows and stuff)

So yeah definitely a mobile site should suffice

ASCII-only

@Mr.Xcoder it's not hard to build mobile apps

Mr. Xcoder

11:14

@ASCII-only I know, since it's kind of the only mainstream thing I am into (Swift)

ASCII-only

it's just that if a well designed site is far more than good enough, and easier to maintain than three separate apps and doesn't require free space on target device, it's kinda redundant to have apps too

Mr. Xcoder

yup, agreed

Now... the question comes... What about chat? Are we going to continue using SE chat, move to other chat services or build one of our own?

Erik the Outgolfer

@ASCII-only ...that won't let you delete your own posts normally

ASCII-only

@EriktheOutgolfer huh?

why would a well designed mobile site not let you delete your own posts

Erik the Outgolfer

I don't think you can delete posts using the SE app...

Mr. Xcoder

11:17

@Mr.Xcoder I think the last option is impossible...

ASCII-only

one more reason against writing an app

feature parity is annoying

NieDzejkob

I see a cool project in the making. Can I help?

ASCII-only

@Mr.Xcoder the latter?

@NieDzejkob of course

user202729

@ASCII-only build one of our own.

Mr. Xcoder

@ASCII-only addressed.

ASCII-only

11:18

that is actually the best idea

discord/slack and SE chat both have their fair share of good points

but also plenty of flaws

a chat service that makes use of the best parts of both would be amazing

Mr. Xcoder

Yeah but that would mean twice more work

ASCII-only

of course

but since when was PPCG the kind of sane community that stops halfway

Mr. Xcoder

Anyway, if we don't make ourselves a plan, we'll just talk forever without use. So we better get our hands dirty soon.

Yuppe, time to learn web development :-D

user202729

@Mr.Xcoder What a weird English idiom.

Erik the Outgolfer

i.e. get to work

Mr. Xcoder

11:21

Q: What will the backend be written with?

ASCII-only

@Mr.Xcoder ~~D: you don't know it yet?~~ :D joining us webdev people

@Mr.Xcoder python

NieDzejkob

@Mr.Xcoder I would say PHP but it's sheat

ASCII-only

and flask

Mr. Xcoder

@ASCII-only I already know a bit of HTML and JS is kind of easy to learn.

Sherlock9

We agreed on Python very early on in the transcript

Mr. Xcoder

11:22

(CSS isn't that hard either :D)

user202729

@Mr.Xcoder That's not backend.

Mr. Xcoder

@user202729 I wasn't talking about backend.

NieDzejkob

Please don't even think about node.js

Mr. Xcoder

lol

ASCII-only

:40962126 I already said Python + flask...

user202729

11:23

@NieDzejkob Why?

ASCII-only

@NieDzejkob how could you say this

wait

messages are too fast sorry

@NieDzejkob you must pay for this heresy

NieDzejkob

@user202729 JavaScript is bad enough on the frontend

Mr. Xcoder

So Python for backend.

Yuppe a language I kinda know

NieDzejkob

@Mr.Xcoder like cgi-esque or node-esque routing?

Mr. Xcoder

@NieDzejkob ask ASCII

user202729

11:24

Well you have to learn JS anyway so why don't you use that too?
Unfortunately I don't know Python.

ASCII-only

also a language I really don't like but somehow have written the most with

I don't know how that happened but it did

NieDzejkob

typing in JS and PHP is shit

ASCII-only

@NieDzejkob more express (node)-esque I guess?

Mr. Xcoder

Python is very easy to learn BTW, it took a 13 year-old guy (me in the past) 4 days to learn most about it :D

NieDzejkob

In PHP, "abc" == "def" will cast both strings to int before comparing

user202729

11:26

@Mr.Xcoder And then forgot it? (that's what happened with VB for me)

NieDzejkob

In JS, every variable is global and stuff

ASCII-only

<- picks up languages abmormally quickly

I think

Mr. Xcoder

@user202729 No... I still do know all I learned

dzaima

@NieDzejkob ?

ASCII-only

@NieDzejkob no...

NieDzejkob

11:26

unless you explicitly mention that you want to stay sane

every freaking time

@ASCII-only I experienced this.

ASCII-only

@NieDzejkob well... basically the only language without mandatory variable declarations is Python...

which is a very bad language btw

NieDzejkob

maybe I exagerrated, but I remember when if($_POST['pass1'] == $_POST['pass2']){ die("passwords must match"); } was bugged

ASCII-only

@NieDzejkob also tbh it's amazing for a language that's meant to be extremely robust

Erik the Outgolfer

proposed model, stuff might be unclear (wip)

Mr. Xcoder

@ASCII-only ಠ_ಠ Charcoal is written in Python isn't it ?

:P

ASCII-only

11:28

@Mr.Xcoder Only because DLosc knows Python best

Python is now important because Wolfram relies in bigints a lot

but Wolfram isn't really an integral part of Charcoal so I guess I can still port it reasonably easily

Mr. Xcoder

Also, will our current reputation be transferred?

ASCII-only

@Mr.Xcoder IMO no

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mr.Xcoder what ascii-only said

Mr. Xcoder

Oh... Starting from Scratch

NieDzejkob

@ASCII-only wonderfully awful example of javascript being unintuitive and error-prone

Mr. Xcoder

11:31

Nvm

ASCII-only

@NieDzejkob where is error

Mr. Xcoder

@ASCII-only They loop from 1 to 10 but look at the output

NieDzejkob

the loop suggests that factorial of 2, 4, 6 and 8 will be calculated too

dzaima

@NieDzejkob strict mode helps

Mr. Xcoder

@EriktheOutgolfer I really don't understand Validity vote

Also why Upvote answers at 1 and Upvote Questions at 2?

ASCII-only

11:34

@NieDzejkob oh yeah. but the source is really obvious

NieDzejkob

just because it's Hello world

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mr.Xcoder for answers such as this one which are kind of difficult to understand at first and could understand wrongly and then think is invalid

NieDzejkob

@Mego missing language field in answers table

Mr. Xcoder

Heh that's my question. Indeed Leaky's answer was outstanding.

I'll make a model too to see what your thoughts are

Erik the Outgolfer

oh and for tips q&a question upvotes are at 2 instead of 1 because in my model users should first try to golf it themselves (i.e do trivial golfs) and then ask, and upvote there means it's a bit difficult and needs creativity to golf a snippet

as I said before, in my model upvotes somehow represent creativity

ASCII-only

11:39

:|

we should just have separate rep for different things

instead of one single imaginary internet point type and arbitrary point values

Mr. Xcoder

Q: How do you picture moderators?

ASCII-only

A: They moderate.

keep people in line mostly

Mr. Xcoder

RE: -1.

I was asking about what their privileges would be and how they would be chosen?

Erik the Outgolfer

A: they handle very serious issues such as user suspensions

Mr. Xcoder

Ok, would we have things like elections?

ASCII-only

11:46

@Mr.Xcoder privileges: all of them.

@Mr.Xcoder hmm i think something decided by the community is nice

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mr.Xcoder sure, democracy is good

ASCII-only

but assuming we generally use SE model really mods can be basically any user with high rep

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mr.Xcoder binding votes, all normal user privs, plus privs for handling very serious stuff

Mr. Xcoder

I mean at first, the contributors to this project would be like pro-tempore mods until the first elections are held.

ASCII-only

this has added bonuses (well i guess just one): tag-specific hammering

Erik the Outgolfer

11:48

@Mr.Xcoder contributors or contributors+collaborators?

ASCII-only

not sure how a community without true mods would fare though

Mr. Xcoder

@EriktheOutgolfer Anyone that has contributed to this project.

(even with ideas)

Erik the Outgolfer

oh

so not really in github terms

Mr. Xcoder

or at least those that have developed the website

Erik the Outgolfer

and then who are going to be the admins

Mr. Xcoder

11:50

Wait, who are admins?

Erik the Outgolfer

like SE employees in hierarchy

but calling them employees wouldn't make much sense here would it

Mr. Xcoder

I guess everyone that has contributed with ideas (and maybe even code) would be a (pro-tempore) mod, and the main programmers would be admins.

ASCII-only

I'd say Mego and people he chooses would be admins

Mr. Xcoder

Exactly.

I also think we should somehow appreciate triviality a lot less

ASCII-only

yes

i said that a while back >_>

Mr. Xcoder

11:57

Ok I joined more recently, so I am probably repeating what others said before.

Erik the Outgolfer

btw I think that in my model I'll add both upvotes and creativity votes

ASCII-only

what are upvotes for then

skill votes?

why not just have ratings for each criterion

Mr. Xcoder

Yeaaah, ratings rather than votes

Also we'd probably adopt the concept of tags from SE.

ASCII-only

@Mr.Xcoder definitely

Mr. Xcoder

God 4 flags in 30 seconds

Sherlock9

12:06

@NieDzejkob ... How?

Erik the Outgolfer

34 mins ago, by NieDzejkob

the loop suggests that factorial of 2, 4, 6 and 8 will be calculated too

NieDzejkob

@Sherlock9 both is are the same variable because THAT MAKES SENSE

Sherlock9

Welp, that's an abomination before God

ASCII-only

@Sherlock9 variables declared without let or var are global

Pavel

15:40

Idea: You can crosspost any question from SE to v2. If it isn't your own, it gets posted as Community Wiki, and the original poster can take ownership of it at any point (if they link their SE account to their v2 account).

Erik the Outgolfer

16:54

@Pavel not recommended imo

Mr. Xcoder

Yeah, I agree it's not a very good idea

caird coinheringaahing

17:18

@EriktheOutgolfer Do we need accepted answers?

Erik the Outgolfer

um no?

was just trying to enumerate stuff in there

caird coinheringaahing

> accepted answers

Erik the Outgolfer

well right now there's not any defined model yet so idk if accepted answers will be a thing

caird coinheringaahing

Ideally, challenges tagged code golf and tips wouldn't but other ones would, such as answer chaining

NieDzejkob

s/accepted/winning/ IMO

Erik the Outgolfer

17:21

well we could have both accepted answers and automated scoring, where you can enable one in each challenge

@NieDzejkob we're talking about the checkmark here

NieDzejkob

yes, but that name makes more sense for the checkmark

Erik the Outgolfer

sure

Mr. Xcoder

Proposal: A documentation section, where the creators of golfing languages show off the unique features of their languages. Maybe tips can be moved to the Documentation part and users would have two types of reputation: Competition rep and Documentation rep (tips)

Because there ain't much Q&A other than tips

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder Like a site version of the Showcase your language question?

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Kind of, but more detailed IMO

caird coinheringaahing

17:36

Idea: Don't penalise downvotes (if we have them)

Mr. Xcoder

Most of us agree that downvotes should not exist.

Erik the Outgolfer

yep

caird coinheringaahing

Also, votes should be reversible at any point, not just within a 5-minute grace period

basically, improve the voting from SE's version :P

Mr. Xcoder

True.

Anonymous

18:49

@NieDzejkob It's a very rough draft right now. I'm aiming for a MVP (minimum viable product) as a proof of concept. More features will be added as we progress.

Anonymous

Moderators will be trusted, active members in the community, selected through an election process. Admins will be hand-picked because of sensitive data in the DB that they would need to be able to access. Abusing either position will result in fiery Vengeance from yours truly.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego suggested feature: spoilers

like in post mortem anagol, where you must click on the username to see the solution

Anonymous

19:53

@EriktheOutgolfer That's not a bad idea

Anonymous

I'm imagining users being able to post their own solutions in spoilers, and challenge authors being able to enforce spoilers on all solutions

Mr. Xcoder

Sounds cool

sounds cool

caird coinheringaahing

@Mego Hmm, now I want to invoke fiery Vengeance, just to see what it's like :P

Anonymous

@cairdcoinheringaahing delete from users where..., ip_blacklist.append(...)

caird coinheringaahing

Also, I think we should have some way of detecting vote fraud, and make that a high priority idea, given that gaming the system is easy without it

Anonymous

19:58

The data for detecting vote fraud will all be in the database. It's just a question of how to present it to make it easily recognizable.

Anonymous

I should probably also make an org chart

Anonymous

I'm thinking something simple like Mego (Benevolent Penguin for Life) -> Admins (including Thomas if we end up hosting on his servers) -> Mods -> Users

Pavel

@Mego if it's Thomas' servers, wouldn't that put him above you

Anonymous

20:16

I'm the project lead, so no

Mr. Xcoder

> Benevolent

FlipTack

@Pavel can you not read? Mego is Benevolent Penguin for Life

I'm looking through this idea now. It seems like a massively difficult task, but so was the Quest for Tetris... I know it's not the creation or development part that will be hard, it's getting people to move over

I'm probably just repeating what everyone else has already said but we would have to make it convincingly better than SE

caird coinheringaahing

Well, at least we've got 5 (?) people willing to move :P

Anonymous

Getting people to move over isn't a priority. If we build it, they will come.

Mr. Xcoder

Not necessarily move completely, but be massively more active there rather than on SE

FlipTack

20:22

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well, half the people in this chat are only in it for some sort of free mod status...

caird coinheringaahing

Also, I have a feeling that the current mods may not move, given that we may not elect them as mods again (not sure if that'd happen or not though)

Anonymous

@FlipTack That's a strong assumption

caird coinheringaahing

@FlipTack I'm not. I just want a better PPCG. Also, I'd never be a good mod

Anonymous

Also, taking part in the development doesn't automatically confer mod privileges. In an open source project, development contributions aren't anything special :P

caird coinheringaahing

fixes typo Give me mod powers!

Anonymous

20:26

Mods will be elected by the community, so if you wouldn't get elected on PPCG.SE, you probably won't get elected here. Admins are appointed by me, and only if we need more admins - unless this really takes off, I'm not sure that we'd need more than a handful.

FlipTack

that's a good fair way to approach it

caird coinheringaahing

@Mego FWIW, if you weren't Benevolent Penguin for Life I'd vote for you in the mod election

FlipTack

enough flattering

caird coinheringaahing

@FlipTack ಠ_ಠ

Mr. Xcoder

@FlipTack Wow that's harsh. I am quite sure most of us only want a better place to golf in.

FlipTack

20:31

@Mr.Xcoder don't get me wrong, I do too, and I love all the ideas people are putting forward

Anonymous

@FlipTack s/flattering/flappening/

Mr. Xcoder

@Mego What in the world does flappening mean?

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder He's a penguin

FlipTack

@cairdcoinheringaahing good observation

Downgoat

21:13

Is this like a seperate website (w/ own posts etc.) or rather like a 'client' for PPCG?

dzaima

21:45

@Downgoat separate website mostly

I feel like a client + extra stuff we want stored separately would be a better and easier idea though, with the plus of not requiring everyone to move over and keeping the SE traffic

ATaco

Oh hey, the goat is here too.

NieDzejkob

22:06

@Mego it will forever intrigue me if I don't ask. How do penguins use a keyboard?

Downgoat

22:40

@dzaima also a scraper to maybe migrate popular challenges over to ppcg2 could be cool

ATaco

@NieDzejkob Carefully, and with a beak.

Downgoat

23:38

@ATaco ... penguins have flappers they can use

ATaco

Flappers are for flapping, Beaks are for precision typing of code.

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