Maid Café (メイド喫茶)

Memor-X

6:45 AM

^ mobile.twitter.com/mydistantblue/status/1436459470389870592/…

^ twitter.com/Meyshi29/status/1437735353641684997/photo/1

morning

SPArcheon

8:33 AM

Apparently Genshin suffers of the old "localization team can't do its job" problem many anime dubs have.

> It's a huge problem that "Heavenly Principles" keeps getting translated into different words despite being the same "天理" in the original text.

This really messes up the lore and prevents EN players from making the connections
Various translations of "天理" include;

"Heavenly Principles" (Opening Cutscene)
“Heaven” (Liyue Archon Quest; The Fond Farewell),
“Destiny” (Lumine/Aether Quest; A Soul Set Apart),
“Natural Order”, (Azhdaha Quest; Amidst Chaos, the Rock Is Unmoved)
"The Divine", (Travail Trailer; About the Hydro Archon)

Yeah, let's translate the same words into different things every single time, it will be fine.

source

it is not even like this is a minor thing in the plot.

For comparison, this would be like calling One Piece with a different name every time.

Dimitri mx

9:54 AM

Morning

SPArcheon

Memor-X

@SPArcheon translation always require some reinterpretation and just because one set of characters = one thing doesn't always mean it means the exact same time every time

like take the days of the week in Japanese

cjvlang.com/Dow/dowjpn.html

for most 日 = day but sunday isn't "day day"

SPArcheon

@Memor-X True, but you can't localize something and keep using different translation for the same concept.

Again, do you think that fans would be happy if One Piece kept switching the words for the treasure it gets it name from?

Memor-X

@SPArcheon depends on the original sentences

like the problem with that reddit page is that it only provides the already localized sentances

SPArcheon

> Many quotes also get more meaningful when you realise they're all referring to the same thing

Lumine: Until the Abyss has engulfed the thrones, my war with destiny the Heavenly Principles will see no end...

Lumine is enemies with the Sustainer of Heavenly Principles!

Kun Jun: Morax shared with us some of his power, to prevent further erosion. But... it was futile. Everything returns to dust. It is the natural order Heavenly Principles, an unstoppable force.

Zhongli: People abandon and surrender the things they love to pursue the right path. Perhaps this is the erosion imposed on me by…

Memor-X

10:07 AM

like i wouldn't be able to read Chinese but if those were posted i would get someone who can read it verify if could keep being used

also it assumes "Heavenly Principles" is correct from the start

SPArcheon

every statement here is talking about a specific lore element - the Heavenly Principles rule the Unknown Goddess* talks about in the intro.

Memor-X

could be

- Sustainer of Destiny
- Sustainer of the Natural Order
- Sustainer of Heaven
- Sustainer of the Divine

SPArcheon

even if the translation isn't literal, that was the word that was chosen for that concept. Therefore, every time that concept is referred it should use the same word.

@Memor-X the point is not the choose translation. It is that the translation keeps switching.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon could be a result of the lore evolving what the Unknown God could be

like correct me if i'm wrong but no one knows what she is, only that she called herself "Sustainer of Heavenly Principles" and denounced the "arrogation of mankind,"

SPArcheon

yep, and weirdly you have multiple claims under that post that the Chinese and Japanese versions keep using the same word.

It is just random localization errors, trust me. Lumine knows the name and is opposing the Sustainer. So her line is clearly

Memor-X

10:12 AM

well it's Chinese and "Heavenly Principles" is the translation so the reasoning is sort moot that just because the Chinese uses the same character means the first instance of translation is correct

SPArcheon

> Until the Abyss has engulfed the thrones, my war with the Heavenly Principles will see no end...

and not

> Until the Abyss has engulfed the thrones, my war with destiny will see no end...

other examples....

reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/comments/pipc0u/…

and let's not forget the very name of the game.

Genshin Impact - in the Chinese / Japanese dub Venti uses this term to describe someone getting a gnosis.

Lost in translation

Memor-X

@SPArcheon funny enough that the reddit links 天理 to this tweet which if i run in the machine translator gets me

> About "Tenri": I (the Unknown God)

CN: "Tenri" -like person, "Hinoko" -like Keikoshi
JP: This "Tenri" mediator ends here with the "child of man"

and then we have this

God in Tenrikyo

In Tenrikyo, God is a single divine being and creator of the entire universe. The first two characters in the Japanese kanji for Tenri-O-no-Mikoto are 天理, where 天 refers to heaven or divinity, and 理 refers to reason or knowledge, thus "Tenri" (天理) refers to divine or heavenly knowledge, and in a sense adds a divine nature to truth itself whereas "天理" also means "natural law" or its pseudonym, "divine law." The English name most frequently used to refer to Tenri-Ō-no-Mikoto outside of ritual is "God the Parent"; in Japanese, the equivalent common name is Oyagamisama. In Tenrikyo, God has no gender...

> The first two characters in the Japanese kanji for Tenri-O-no-Mikoto are 天理, where 天 refers to heaven or divinity, and 理 refers to reason or knowledge, thus "Tenri" (天理) refers to divine or heavenly knowledge, and in a sense adds a divine nature to truth itself whereas "天理" also means "natural law" or its pseudonym, "divine law."

SPArcheon

@Memor-X correct again, but this seems to still miss the point.

Simpler comparison. Zelda Windwaker.

During the game, many characters missname the Triforce. "Golden Fork", "triangle set" etc...

Makes sense: most of the game NPC have no way to know what the triforce is, and they are just quoting misremembered lines from old legends.

In this case, the character are talking about some kind of "rule" of the world imposed by someone. They have no reason to use random words.

Especially the missing Traveler, they would just use the name they are sure the player Traveler knows.

So, again, it is not a problem with the meaning. It is a problem with the wording.

Memor-X

10:28 AM

@SPArcheon but that's a problem itself, you can't get wording 100% right with translation

SPArcheon

true. But the problem here is that that is basically a proper name, not a concept.

Memor-X

when translating there will be times where there are no equivalents or the equivalents do not make sense, so they come up with something that can retain as much of the original meaning with what they have

SPArcheon

So, once you decide that that artifact/person/technique/place/whatever is called a certain way, use that word every time.

Memor-X

and you'd have more than 1 translator working on the project not necessarily talking to the others or past translators

SPArcheon

@Memor-X Bingo. But that points out to another problem then - the translators not having access to a "lore words lists".

Memor-X

10:32 AM

again, it might not be Heavenly Principles. from the start who the Unknown God is or their purpose is unknown

also

> Kun Jun: Morax shared with us some of his power, to prevent further erosion. But... it was futile. Everything returns to dust. It is the ~~natural order~~ Heavenly Principles, an unstoppable force.

to me that's not referring to the Unknown God

SPArcheon

wait.... Heavenly Principles != Unknown God.

and this gives me the perfect example.

The "Heavenly Principles" are a rule of the world.

Basically, the "Heavenly Principles" are the Genshin equivalent of the concept of "Equivalent Exchange" in Full Metal Alchemist.

Now, would you like if the dub of FMA took the "Equivalent Exchange" concept and translated it differently every time Ed mentioned it?

> Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of natural order

> If one wishes to obtain something, something of equal value must be given. This is the Law of Fair Trade

Memor-X

and yet Equivalent Exchange is well explained what that actually means

the equality of input and output

as you read into it more you see that Alchemy requires balance in the reaction, if it's too much or to little input compared to the desired output, the process becomes unbalance and a rebound occurs as it tries to regain balance

SPArcheon

@Memor-X and yet it is called the same every time.

why? because it is the name that concept has in the world described by the lore.

Memor-X

not to mention Equivalent Exchange i think is only Ametris, Xing doesn't have that

and yet the knowledge came from the same source, Dwarf. only difference was that Dwarf purposely made Alchemy flawed for it's benefit. Hohenheim (who learned Alchemy and thus Alkahestry from Dwarf) taught it differently

SPArcheon

10:52 AM

another example since I fear we are still taking about different things.

> I play on the Asia server with Chinese subtitles, and one day one of my English speaking friend told me that the word "Genshin" was never mentioned in the Eng translation. I'm actually quite surprised by this, so here's a brief explanation about the word "Genshin" and where it was mentioned in the story, for those who don't know already.

Genshin is a direct pronunciation translation, the original Chinese name being "原神", which is pronounced "Yuan Shen", thus "Genshin", to make it easier to pronounce for English speakers. The meaning of these words is, "原"meaning "origin", and "神" meaning…

and then

> Genshin was translated to Allogene.

Fine, choose a word, any word but stick with it.

If the game is called Genshin Impact and Genshin was "those who can become god" and the "Impact" was meant to be the act of "ascending", please use that in the rest of the game consistently.

I suppose many will be fine with the character leveling up being called "ascension" instead of the name drop, but why make up another word "Allogene" that never existed in the original script?

Want to use "Allogene", then call the game "Allogene Ascension"

Memor-X

@SPArcheon but then this seems to imply that maybe the Unknown God is the Sustainer of the Divine/Heaven and thus her distain for mortals and their arrogation would be explained is she holds a belief that man kind should not be trying to attempt to become divine or ascend to heaven

and given that from what i have seen only the Unknown God calls herself a Sustainer it could just be a self imposed title

like calling oneself the One True God among others (eg. Neptunia Re;Birth Alfoire)

SPArcheon

@Memor-X That is heavily implied in multiple places by now, remember me saying that the Vision probably are a way to make people lose focus and set them on a specific fate shat someone choose for them? Yet, I still miss your point. The problem here is that a concept in the game lore is misstranslated so that multiple references to it are lost to the English readers.

Memor-X

again this goes into how the original reddit seems to imply that because "Heavenly Principles" was used first it should always be used

and if "Sustainer or Heavenly Principles" was spoken, it's not so easy to correct that

SPArcheon

it should be used when the game talks about it. But they could use any other made up word, even Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious ... if they just stick to one single version.

Take Morax line.

> People abandon and surrender the things they love to pursue the right path. Perhaps this is the erosion imposed on me by the natural order of this world.

I read it as "Time makes people forget".

> People abandon and surrender the things they love to pursue the right path. Perhaps this is the erosion imposed on me by the Heavenly Principles of this world.

I read it as "the Principles ares sus"

Memor-X

and yet the reasoning to use "Heavenly Principles" is because it was used at the start

what if "Heavenly Principles" was instead "Holy Divine"

SPArcheon

11:03 AM

then use Holy divine every time

Memor-X

despite the fact that it is very likely wrong

SPArcheon

true.

But MEGA man also has nothing to share with Rock (& Roll... get the joke?)

But the game just decided to call him Megaman, not half the time Megaman and half the time Rock.

I do not advocate any specific translation.

Memor-X

that's because the games originally were not so plot heavy

SPArcheon

I advocate consistent use of a single translation if you are speaking about the same thing

Memor-X

and when you get to Megaman Starforce

> Omega-Xis (read as omega-zis),[1] known as Warrock (ウォーロック Wōrokku) in Japan

because Omega-Xis is the catalyst for Megaman you can see the inside reference of Warrock to the original Megaman

yet i would argue that Omega-Xis still hints back to previous Megaman titles because of O-Mega where Omega is generally better than Mega and showing not only being the catalyst of the next even better Megaman but also how wave base entities was the next evolution to the data based entities. added that Omega Zero was always seen as being more powerful than Zero despite Omega not being the original Zero

otherwise they could have called him Warmega which would have lot alot og that meaning

@SPArcheon assuming it is the same thing. like i said the Unknown God calls herself a Sustainer and that could be self-imposed and in context Heavenly Principles might be something different compared to the other uses that the reddit post says should be changed

if the translation teams are not in contact with one another then only the original writers can say why they chose the term at the start and in those situations, if they are, then the translation is as close to correct and the term shouldn't be replaced

SPArcheon

11:26 AM

final weapon.

@Memor-X they recently started fixing.

whit the current speed, expect the Lumine fix next summer...

Memor-X

@SPArcheon assuming it's correct this time

people are going to bitch if the "Sustainer of Heaven" appears and it's revealed that is the correct usage for that context

SPArcheon

again, people where more annoyed by the fact that they lost reference character made to the Principle than the fact a specific word was choosen.

It is not nitpicking about translation, it is nitpicking about missing lore point if they leave out things the characters say.

Dimitri mx

1:13 PM

That moment stackoverflow turns codeblocks into gibberish ._.

Memor-X

:claps:

though not entirely gibberish

Dimitri mx

Some are empty. Some turn into.. this.
Looking up code snippets has become a challenge today ;')

Memor-X

seems like unrecognized character in the front

might be able to fix locally by altering the CSS to point to a different front

Dimitri mx

1:52 PM

for now just using another browser for it. Seems to only be the case in firefox anyway

Sakamoto

4:09 PM

0

Q: How are Shun's friends able to acquire the Hero title?

I forget which episode it is, but at one point Shun and his friends were talking about ways to acquire the Hero title. Since this is supposed to be a one-of-a-kind title only held by one person at a time, I was quite confused by the conversation.

kumo-desu-ga-nani-ka

Sakamoto

4:34 PM

0

Q: Has Ms. Oka been brainwashed by Potimas?

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kumo-desu-ga-nani-ka

Sakamoto

4:59 PM

-1

Q: Anyone hate The Anime Man youtuber?

I've just watched a video of him roasting other anime tastes on MAL, and I find it's kinda cringed. I mean, I don't know why did he roast and put his own opinions on others, I find this guy is kinda want to be an elite anime watcher.

anime-production culture sword-art-online myanimelist eromanga-sensei

Kiki's Express Delivery

10:02 PM

0

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grammar negation anime

Sakamoto

11:10 PM

0

Q: Does Gogeta have a new transformation in Dragon Ball Heroes?

This scene with Gogeta is seen in Dragon Ball Heroes episode 38. As we know several canon and filler transformations have been shown surpassing regular Super Saiyan Blue in the Dragon Ball super / Dragon Ball Heroes , anime / manga Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Super Sa...

dragon-ball-heroes

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Maid Café (メイド喫茶)