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1:55 AM
@EliahKagan I meant to say:
> Suppose further that my system has no constants...
@EliahKagan I meant to say:
> If umbrella is a unary function symbol (i.e., a function symbol of arity 1), it's true that it's ill-formed (i.e., fails to satisfy the formal syntactic constraints for what a term is) to write umbrella() or umbrella(smith, sue).
(A with a binary function symbol umbrella it certainly would be well-formed to write things like umbrella(smith, sue).)
 
 
4 hours later…
6:15 AM
@EliahKagan Without going as far as "natural units," an example of a choice in dimensional analysis is whether or not to allow electric charge to be expressed solely in terms of length, time, and mass. SI does not allow this, but some unit systems do.
That is, in one of the popular versions of cgs, charge is defined in such a way that the k_3 in Coulomb's law is equal to 1.
These are examples of weakening dimensional analysis but it can also be strengthened.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:00 AM
@EliahKagan I'm pretty sure you didn't promise anything and it's extremely generous of you to spend so much time teaching me things
@EliahKagan I was a bit confused by what you had said earlier
:)
 
@Zanna :) I like chatting about interesting things. Btw, as I briefly alluded to yesterday, I hope you never feel a need to delay in replying, at least not on my account. Even aside from errors, the things I am saying are not organized well enough to be harmed by an interruption in their flow. Even if they were, it would still be worthwhile. Also, I want to read what you have to say! :)
@Zanna Due to those two specific errors?
Or for another reason?
 
I was confused when you said that umbrella was a binary function symbol when it had seemed not to be
 
I hope you don't feel reluctant to tell me that I am wrong about things!
Especially when I am actually wrong, like there, but this is also welcome even if you're mistaken.
I think off-by-one errors in stating the arity of function symbols is a mistake I've made before, but perhaps not while talking to you. There's a relationship between an n-ary function symbol and an (n + 1)-ary predicate. For example for a ternary function symbol f, the sentence w = fxyz could be expressed by a using a corresponding quaternary predicate F by saying Fwxyz.
So, there's a reason I've brought up the possibility that things that seems to be altogether different kind of things, which one would not ordinarily think to compare (except through a conceptual error), cannot so easily be known to be different.
Suppose we study integers, or real numbers, or points in three-dimensional Euclidean space.
What's important about these things is how they behave, that is, the properties of the operations defined for them.
 
9:20 AM
@EliahKagan I was trying to remember an anecdote about a time when I got to satisfyingly prove that VI=W/t to someone in a bar but I can't remember that story. Similarly I have forgotten so many of the nice unit definitions I used to know.
 
Suppose we have a theory that says there are two copies of the integers: the yellow integers and the purple integers.
 
@EliahKagan when I think other people are wrong it's usually me so I tend to wait a while if possible. Anyway I was getting sleepy then
@EliahKagan that sounds like fun
 
Our theory provides a way to distinguish between them. Such as predicates P and Y, where Px means "x is purple" and Yx means "x is yellow". Our system also provides the means to do arithmetic with either of them, separately.
Although function symbols don't capture the meaning of functions as they are usually used in modern mathematics (which I'll get to), one can nonetheless decide to use them, and there are even practical reasons for doing so sometimes. In this case, I'll do that -- or, rather, describe a system that does -- because you understand function symbols.
First, consider the purple plus sign and the yellow plus sign.
Both are primitive function symbols of our system.
Both are used in infix position.
The purple plus sign adds purple integers. The yellow plus sign adds yellow integers.
You might wonder if it is really reasonable to have any kind of plus sign in the signature of one's system. After all, surely one can define + in terms of something simpler. This is true, and it is often best to take that approach. But this system (that I am making up) has it as a primitive--or rather, has them, the separate purple and yellow plus signs.
Similarly, we have primitive purple times signs and yellow times signs.
For multiplying purple numbers and yellow numbers respectively.
We can use definite descriptions to express "the purple additive identity, purple 0" and "the yellow additive identity, yellow 0" and "the purple multiplicative identity, purple 1" and "the yellow multiplicative identity, yellow 1" and "the purple additive inverse of x" and "the yellow additive inverse of x" and "the purple multiplicative inverse of x" and "the yellow multiplicative inverse of x".
Sometimes these definite descriptions will fail and so atomic sentences in which they appear as arguments will be false. That's fine. For example, a yellow integer has no purple additive inverse -- or, with respect to the notation we would likely adopt for convenience: it is undefined to apply a purple unary minus sign to a yellow integer.
(Or a yellow unary minus to a purple integer.)
Also, though this situation has arisen due to me not thinking things through well enough, it's actually handy: No yellow integer or purple integer, other than yellow 1, yellow -1, purple 1, and purple -1, has a yellow multiplicative inverse or a purple multiplicative inverse.
(Because this is the integers, so we don't have things like 1/2 of any color.)
Similarly, you cannot take the purple sum of yellow integers or the yellow sum of purple integers.
That's undefined: x + y fails to refer to any thing except when x and y have the same color and the + for that color is being used.
We can express these restrictions with axioms.
The purple sum of yellow integers in this system is undefined in the same sense of "undefined" that division by zero is undefined in the real numbers.
Now, suppose this is the system we use one day while picking apples at an orchard.
And we solve various arithmetic problems involving numbers of apples.
But you use the purple integer and I use the yellow integers.
Every claim you make that just uses purple integers and purple function symbols has a corresponding claim I can make that just uses yellow integers and yellow function symbols.
The arithmetic does not actually use the color.
The knowledge known about the purple integers applies to the yellow integers, and vice versa.
We might disagree about which one is really the integers, but that's sort of missing the point. Knowledge about integers is knowledge about any bunch 'o things and operations on them that behave like integers.
And concretely, in the world, there's plenty of stuff that works like integers, or at least that we can model (in the sense of modeling in the sciences) with integers. That's what makes integers useful and interesting.
If you're trying to express insights about integers, asserting or denying that "the number 7 is yellow" does not do that.
Does my analogy between dimensional analysis and this make sense?
Also, is the number 7 a set?
 
9:53 AM
@EliahKagan I don't think I am getting it
@EliahKagan I suppose so, if you like
 
@Zanna There are meaningful things that can be said about real numbers that cannot be said about dimensionful quantities over the reals. If one adopts the convention that quantities that "3 meters" are real numbers, one should in practice avoid talking about properties of reals that doesn't corresponding to anything meaningful about lengths (such as whether a value or less than, greater than, or equal to its reciprocal).
Similarly, it is meaningful to say, of an object in our system that has both yellow and purple integers, what that object's color is. But when using either the yellow integers or the purple integer to get the power of integers, one should avoid saying anything about their color, because that does not express any conceptually meaningful thing about integers.
@Zanna Some people find it very non-intuitive that an object like 7 could be a set. However, we better be able to define 7 as some set -- and to define the whole number system in terms of sets, if we are to use a set theory whose universe of discourse is sets to develop mathematics! And that is one of the chief uses of set theory.
@EliahKagan This idea applies to informal (or, really, less easily formalizable) questions too. For example, we might argue about--and people do argue about--what addition or multiplication mean. These arguments are not pointless or unimportant. However, any reasonable contender for what addition and multiplication mean will observe the same properties as any other; addition will be commutative, for example, and multiplication will distribute over it.
So, for example, I strongly believe that in discrete mathematics, the usual arithmetic operations such as addition, multiplication, and exponentiation are combinatoric in nature. This is a philosophical belief. To be plausible, they must have combinatoric interpretations that behave in accordance with the important properties (or laws) in arithmetic.
I might talk to someone who vigorously disagrees with my philosophical belief, and yet, we may agree about numerous claims made about the nonnegative integers, even though we fundamentally disagree about what they are. Because (this is a very sweeping thing to say which might be a bit of an overstatement) mathematics is is about what can be known given particular properties.
 
10:11 AM
@EliahKagan so, you are pointing out that there are things we can do with numbers that don't apply to things we have units for like length... and that if we had two sets of integers of different colours there would be things we could do with them that would not apply... to things we could use them for. There could be extra properties of things that are... not always applicable/meaningful ?
@EliahKagan I don't see anything wrong with the number 7 being a set
 
@Zanna Right. We can encode, or construct, one mathematical structure using the machinery provided by another. We may also be able to express things with that underlying machinery that are not conceptually meaningful for our application.
 
that is alright
@EliahKagan and that is alright
 
@Zanna Good, because I shall soon tell you specifically which set it is usually defined to be, in the number system that is nearly always developed first in set theory, before developing other number systems in which 7 may be a different set. :)
But one of the reasons some people find this non-intuitive is, which set.
Another is that it may not readily appear meaningful to say, of some x, that x ∈ 7.
Before moving on, did you want to try an example of writing sentences symbolically with predicates only, with predicates and function symbols, and with predicates and definite descriptions? This is what the "state bird" example was for, as you may recall.
 
I don't think I know where to start with it, but I need to go to the post office now so maybe I can think about it while walking...
 
I can ask some specific questions that should help.
 
10:23 AM
that would be excellent
 
Should I wait until you've returned from the post office though?
I don't know if this is the sort of trip where you'd be checking your phone.
Or if you're signed into SE chat on it.
Do you want me to show it with your dishes and spices example, or with my state bird example?
You could then do the other.
 
10:47 AM
If you choose the state birds example, you can still get the benefit of coming up with your own predicates, because that system is rather threadbare -- it doesn't provide any way to say "x is a state" for example.
Though I suppose one could adopt the convention that what we mean by a state is anything that has at least one state bird...
 
10:59 AM
Yes let's try with the state birds
I am at the post office and now going back
 
Unfortunately, I phrased my question ambiguously -- do you want me to do state birds, or do you want to do state birds (and thus for me to do the other thing)?
 
11:16 AM
my bad
I was suggesting you help me out with your example
then maybe I can do something with mine
maybe
 
@Zanna No, I noticed this ambiguity in [what I said](52612106) shortly after saying it.
@Zanna Sounds good.
 
:)
 
So we want to be able to say things like "New York's unique state bird is the bluebird" but also sentences with quantifiers, like "no two things have the same state bird"
Also it would be nice to be able to say things like "No two states have the same state bird."
So besides the binary predicate B where Bxy means "x has y as a state bird", let's also have a unary predicate S where Sx means "x is a (US) state".
 
ok :)
 
Also, though I don't need it, I also have the unary function symbol f where fx means "the unique state bird of x".
"Unique" means x must have exactly one state bird, not that it can't also be the state bird of some y where y ≠ x.
So, this expresses, "Every state has a state bird":
∀x (Sx → ∃y Bxy)
Does that make sense?
Or if you prefer a more verbose dialect:
∀x (State(x) → ∃y HasBird(x, y))
 
11:30 AM
@EliahKagan for all x, if x is a state, there exists such a bird that is the state bird of x
 
It is not explicitly saying the state bird is a bird, but besides that, yes.
 
oh yes
 
The language of this system can express that something is a state bird, and that something is a state, but not that something is a bird.
 
y is just some thing
 
Yes.
 
11:32 AM
that is the state bird of x, if x is a state
 
I would say yes to that.
 
Hey!
 
Hi.
 
hello
 
Hi @Zanna and @EliahKagan!
Sorry for intruding
 
11:34 AM
@EliahKagan But my hedging is deliberate. The meaning of ∃y does not rely on Sx.
@Elfvia No problem!
 
@EliahKagan thanks :)
 
@Elfvia welcome to the Island
 
@Zanna thank you too Zanna! :)
So what do you talk about here?
my ignorance is showing
 
many things. it seems we are talking about logic today
 
Oh cool! What's with the State Bird??
 
11:36 AM
@Elfvia Things that come up in the Downboat and become off-topic are moved here. We talk about some of those things, and also some things that come up based on things that were here. This room exists so the Downboat doesn't get bogged down in conversations that are off-topic (or overly long and about technical matters) for it.
@Elfvia It's an example for translating sentences from ordinary language into predicate logic.
 
@EliahKagan I can dimly perceive this
 
Or, if you're asking what feature of actual reality it is referring to: most US states (I think all) have an official state bird.
 
@EliahKagan that.....makes sense! :)
@EliahKagan oh! All of them do, right?
 
I think they all do.
 
I read from an article (or somewhere) that they did
 
11:38 AM
If so, that sentence is correct when taken as a description of US states and their state birds. :)
 
bonus haha
 
Someone tell me what that language is LOL
Looks like Python's complicated variables to me or something
Uhh in case this helps, why don't you search it up or something...?
 
@Elfvia It is a language of formal logic. To be more specific, I am only using what is available in first-order logic, so you might consider it to be a language of first-order logic. (I do consider it to be a language of first-order logic, but I have not yet justified this.)
@Elfvia Search for what? Whether or not every (US) state really has a state bird?
 
@EliahKagan oh not making any sense to my dumb-dumb head
 
Various online sources do claim that all US states have state birds, yes. However, although the main purpose of logic really is to help find and understand truth about things other than logic itself, in this case we're talking about state birds as an example for doing logic.
@Zanna Do you want to try expressing something. If so, go ahead!
I suggest: "There are no states."
(Things don't have to be true to be expressible by a well-formed sentence or interesting to express.)
 
11:48 AM
¬∃x Sx  ?
 
Yes. :)
 
oh :)
 
Can you now express that with no existential quantifier?
 
hmm no
 
There is a way.
Specifically, there is a way to do it using universal quantification instead.
 
11:52 AM
I felt you were implying that there is a way, but I haven't thought of it yet
 
I can give an additional hint if you like.
 
yes, please
 
Suppose no thing is a state. What does that say about every thing?
 
everything is not a state
 
Can you express that with universal quantification?
 
11:56 AM
like, maybe ∀x ¬Sx
 
Yes.
This can always be done -- one quantifier can always be eliminated.
If we only had universal quantification, or only had existential quantification, the expressive power of our language would be undiminished.
Can you express "something is a state" without existential quantification?
 
is that the opposite of what I said last?
 
Yes, it is the denial of that.
 
12:11 PM
so, I guess it is ¬∀x ¬Sx, not every thing is not a state
 
Yes.
(Sry, was afk.)
 
no worries at all!
 
To say there exists something that is not a certain way is to say not everything is that way.
Thus you can pass ¬ in either direction through ∀, if you also turn the ∀ into an ∃, and that will always preserve the truth value of the sentence.
 
in either direction?
 
@EliahKagan And can pass ¬ in either direction through ∃, if you also turn the ∃ into an ∀, and that will always preserve the truth value of the sentence.
@Zanna Yeah, it can start on the left and end up on the right, or start on the right and end up on the left.
 
12:20 PM
@EliahKagan hence that
 
Well, one side of my first claim is the revese of the other side of my second claim. :)
So, for example, ¬∀x Fx is logically equivalent to ∃x ¬Fx. You can turn either into the other. Also, ¬∃x Fx is logically equivalent to ∀x ¬Fx. You can turn either of those into the other, too.
By "logically equivalent" I mean something very strong. I mean you cannot make a system that provides a counterexample.
So, suppose there are no states. Is it true or false that every state has a state bird?
 
I don't know
I guess if there aren't any states they can't have state birds
 
When you say that, do you mean that if there are no states, then every state has no state bird?
 
that doesn't sound right somehow
 
By saying that universal quantification, ∀, means "all," one leaves some questions open about which meaning--of those found in ordinary language--is intended. The rules of passage for ¬, which seem so innocent and uncontroversial, clarify which meaning applies.
 
12:40 PM
@EliahKagan yes I guess so
 
So, if there are no states, then every state has no state bird.
 
that seems like one of the things that would be the case in that situation
 
But also, if there are no states, then every state has a state bird.
 
that seems reasonable, yes
 
Also:
(¬∃x Sx) → ∀x (Sx → x ≠ x)
 
12:46 PM
how can x not be itself?
 
It can't.
x ≠ x, which is the right side of Sx → x ≠ x, is always false.
I haven't formally presented axioms of identity, but as you'd expect, one of them is ∀x (x = x).
 
phew :)
 
No x satisfies x ≠ x.
However, that doesn't mean no x satisfies Sx → x ≠ x.
 
things can't get any worse than x ≠ x
@EliahKagan if x is not a state it's ok
 
Right, with sentences p and q, the sentence p → q is true when p false.
"If 4 is prime then I am the pope."
 
12:56 PM
hahaha
 
This is one of the reasons "→" does not capture the meaning of all English sentences of the form "if... then..." However, I think it captures the meaning of more of them than is often realized.
 
so x ≠ x can be translated to "I am the pope"
 
No.
"I am the pope" is true when someone says it.
Its arguments are also not the same.
I think you're joking but I still figured I'd take the opportunity to point that out. :)
That p → q is true when p is false, regardless of the truth value of q, is sometimes presented as a mere convention.
Specifically, people often feel that it is in some sense not "really" the case that p → q when p is false and q is also false. But it is required, if we want "→" is to be truth-functional (i.e., the truth value of p → q depends only on the truth values of p and q) and want p → p always to be true.
 
I would not have realised this easily without the examples
 
Which example? Ah. Can you say more about that, though?
In particular, I'm not sure which thing you're saying you wouldn't have realized without examples.
 
1:10 PM
I mean I can easily understand that "If 4 is prime then I am the pope." is true but it would be very hard for me to see that p → q is true when p is false (even if q is false) without any examples
 
Oh. Yes.
What's interesting is that this seems to apply to some of the non-truth-functional meanings of "if" as well.
Or at least to non-declarative meanings.
"If the auditor knocks, hide in the cellar" is obeyed if the auditor does not knock, whether or not one hides in the cellar. It is also obeyed if one hides in the cellar, whether or not the auditor knocks.
 
hahaha
 
I think this a good time to mention that many people find it unintuitive that one may pronounce "→" as "only if".
But at least when only truth-functional information is expressed, "If p then q" means exactly the same thing as "p only if q" even in ordinary language (with substitutions for p and q).
 
@EliahKagan which messes up what you said about hiding in the cellar a bit
 
Declarative sentences that express the same wish as that imperative sentence work with "only if," though.
Well, it's awkward.
It's less awkward when communicated in the other direction.
Maybe awkward that way too.
One has to get rid of the causal content, which is not truth-functional, for it to sound right.
 
1:25 PM
that doesn't matter anyway :)
 
So, I guess this is good time for me to say, you don't need "→", though many people think (perhaps with good reason) that there are strong theoretical reasons for it.
 
I need to go afk for some time, maybe a couple of hours
@EliahKagan oh! so you are going to say maybe, how we manage without it
 
maybe?
I mean, what do you mean by "maybe" there?
 
I mean you might say how we manage without it (but you might not)
 
"∨" and "¬" (sometimes with multiple occurrences) are sufficient to do the work of any combination of truth-functional sentential connectives (including "→"). "∧" and "¬" are also sufficient. There are individual binary connectives that are sufficient, but they are less commonly used and I haven't introduced symbols for them: "nor" is by itself sufficient to express anything, as is "not both" (i.e., "nand").
 
1:32 PM
haha incredible
 
@Zanna Do you want to try expressing p → q with "∨" and "¬"?
(And also, separately, with "∧" and "¬"?)
I understand that, if you do want to, you may still not want to now, because you were saying you have to afk soon.
 
@EliahKagan seems fun
 
(Both are much easier than they may sound, but that is no reason to keep yourself from going and doing what you need or want to do, nor is there any benefit of rusing.)
To do it with "∨", consider the different ways that the sentence p → q could come out true.
 
"v" is "and" and "∧" is "or", right?
 
No, the other way around.
"∧" means and.
"v" means or.
 
1:35 PM
oh haha good thing I asked
ok I will go and come back and do it because rushing is bad
 
"v" is from vel in Latin. I don't know Latin, but most logic books says this. :)
To clarify, the symbol for "or" is "∨", not "v".
But it's from the "v" in "vel."
This distinction is sometimes important because "v" may be used as a variable or constant or whatnot.
Which reminds me...
So I don't forget (and in case you want to do it whenever), the next sentence I was going to suggest you symbolize is, with v as Vermont and w as Washington:
> Vermont and Washington share a state bird.
In case that wording is unclear, another way to say that informally is:
> Vermont and Washington have a state bird in common.
@Zanna Ttyl.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:16 PM
@EliahKagan I think it comes out true unless p is true and q is false
but apart from that, I have no idea
@EliahKagan what is vel in Latin?
 
@Zanna That is correct. Furthermore, that means you're most of the way to expressing p → q using only "∧" and "¬". I recommend trying that; after that, you'll likely have little trouble expressing it using only "∨" and "¬".
@Zanna or
 
oh XD
 
@Zanna Do you see what I mean about "∧" and "¬" in connection to that fact you rightly stated?
 
no :(
I am very confused
 
So, you have noticed that the only situation where p → q is false is when p is true and q is false.
 
4:28 PM
yes...
 
Can you express "p is true and q is false" symbolically?
 
no
 
In English (except, of course, keeping the sentence letters p and q), can you express "p is true and q is false" without using the words "true" or "false" or any synonyms of those words?
Hint: this will be shorter than "p is true and q is false."
 
if I make some positive statement, am I saying that it is true? Like if I say "water is wet", is that the same as saying "it's true that water is wet"?
 
The insight to use here is that you can act as if that is so. :)
I was really really tempted to say yes.
But since you asked the question, I should give it a thoughtful answer.
If "water is wet" is true, then water is wet.
 
4:41 PM
@EliahKagan so perhaps here I can say that "p and not q"
 
@EliahKagan Furthermore, if water is wet, then "water is wet" is true.
@Zanna Yes.
 
@EliahKagan :) :)
 
@EliahKagan However, you asked if saying the one is the same as saying the other. That's a different question, and one that is important and interesting, but you don't need the answer for this.
But if that question is asking if the act of saying the words "water is wet" is the same as the act of saying the words "it's true that water is wet", then the answer is no. Those are different words. :)
Part of what is going on is that, in "when p is true and q is false", the symbols "p" and "q" are being used as though they are names for sentences. In contrast, when they actually appear formally (and sometimes informally), they are not names for sentences. Rather, they stand in directly for sentences, i.e., they operate grammatically the same as sentences do.
 
hmm
 
Consider:
> Smith is away and Olive is a reindeer.
The "and" is not a predicate making claims about sentences. It is a piece of syntax that connects them into another sentence.
We could have a formal metatheory in which some of the objects of study are sentences.
We could then directly express things like:
> "Smith is away" is true and "Olive is a reindeer" is true.
However, that's not what "and" means, conceptually.
Compound sentences of the form p ∧ q are not making claims about the sentences p and q.
English allows us to refer to facts without quotation: "Smith knows Olive is a reindeer."
The kind of formal logic I am talking about does not do that directly. Modal logic could do that.
Does that make sense?
Really something more concrete than that is at work here when it comes to inferences about the truth values of compound sentences drawn from premises about the truth values of their constituent sentences.
p ∧ q is true only when both p and q are true.
 
4:56 PM
@EliahKagan I think so
 
p ∨ q is true when p is true or q is true or both.
 
sorry I was afk
 
I didn't know you were afk. Unless you mean earlier.
 
just now I mean.
that's alright then haha
 
All the truth-functional sentential connectives are defined by what combinations of truth values satisfy them.
I just didn't introduce them that way explicitly.
There are also rules of inference.
For example, suppose you have p → q and p as premises. You can conclude q. Many people, including me, would say this is what "→" means. But there is a rule of inference for it. That rule is called modus ponens.
Suppose instead you have p → q and ¬q as premises. You can conclude ¬p. This rule is called modus tollens.
The contrapositive of p → q is ¬q → ¬p. That's the definition of the contrapositive. The contrapositive law says that if you have p → q as a premise, you can infer ¬q → ¬p, and if you have ¬q → ¬p as a premise, you can infer p → q. That is, any conditional and its contrapositive (p → q and ¬q → ¬p, respectively) are logically equivalent.
When not doing metatheory (i.e., when not using a formal system to talk about how formal systems work), such rules are stated informally.
If they are stated at all.
I don't know if this is making the relationship between the knowledge of something and the knowledge of its truth clearer or not.
 
5:05 PM
I think it probably is
 
@Zanna So, you know p → q is only false when p and not q.
Can you represent "p and not q" symbolically?
 
like, p ∧ ¬q
 
Yes.
So p ∧ ¬q denies that p → q.
Based on that, can you write something (without "→") that affirms that p → q?
You realized that p → q is false when, and only when, p ∧ ¬q. So when is p → q true?
 
when p ∧ q and when ¬p ∧ ¬q and when ¬p ∧ q
 
5:21 PM
That's true. So p → q can be expressed with "∧", "∨", and "¬" as (p ∧ q) ∨ (¬p ∧ ¬q) ∨ (¬p ∧ q). However, it can be expressed much simpler, and without "∨".
Suppose we know r expresses ¬s. That is, r is the denial of s. Using r, how can we express s? That is, in terms of r, how can we affirm s?
 
maybe it is true when ¬(p ∧ ¬q)
 
Exactly.
p → q is logically equivalent to ¬(p ∧ ¬q). That's the simplest way to express p → q using only "∧" and "¬".
 
@EliahKagan if r is ¬s then ¬r might be s
I think I am very illogical
@EliahKagan ok :)
 
Yeah, ¬¬p expresses the same facts as p.
(typo fixed)
 
(that happens in English too, though not in some other languages)
 
5:37 PM
Are you thinking of constructions like "ne ... pas" where there are two words that indicate negation but they don't cancel out?
 
yes
 
I think all natural languages still facilitate saying things like "It is not the case that it is not the case that ..." One way to translate "¬" is as "it is not the case that."
But as for the meaning of ¬¬p, it's ¬ applied to ¬p, and by knowing that "¬" is a is truth-functional connective, you know the ¬¬ in ¬¬p doesn't collapse to a single ¬.
 
@EliahKagan that seems very right
 
So anyway, ¬(p ∧ ¬q) expresses p → q. That's cool! You've arrived at it deductively through a sequence of steps, but do you also understand the result conceptually, from the meanings of ¬(p ∧ ¬q) and p → q?
 
somehow it seems very difficult
 
5:48 PM
¬(p ∧ ¬q) denies that p but not q.
 
yes
that's alright
 
The only situation where p → q is not satisfied is when p but not q.
Sorry, what were you saying was difficult?
 
I can understand these things. But "anything but p and not q" is a very uncomfortable way to say "if p then q"
 
Oh.
 
maybe I will find this language less uncomfortable if I practise a lot
 
5:53 PM
@Zanna Yeah, expressing "→" in terms of "∧" and "¬" is not nearly as nice as expressing "→" in terms of "∨" and "¬".
@Zanna Probably so. Also, this language does have "→". :)
 
thankfully
@EliahKagan but I still can't see how to do that :S
 
Having expressed p → q with "∧" and "¬" as ¬(p ∧ ¬q), do you see a way to express it using "∨" and "¬"?
@Zanna Oh.
Well, one way to figure it out is to think about how to express ¬(p ∧ ¬q) with "∨" and "¬".
I recommend first figuring out how to express ¬(r ∧ s) with "∨" and "¬".
Thinking in ordinary language may help with this.
 
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