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5:29 AM
@Zanna Sorry, I missed that. Unless that's part of what you meant there.
@EliahKagan To clarify regarding the factorial: if you want to know how many ways there are to seat n people in n seats, that's n!. You have n choices for the first seat, n - 1 choices for the second seat (because whoever you just seated cannot be seated again in another seat), n - 2 choices for the third seat, and so forth, until 1 choice for the final seat. If you have no seats but you also don't have anyone you must seat, that's fine, and there's 1 way to do that.
In contrast, if you have no seats and you must seat more than 0 people, there are 0 ways to do that. (So some permutation problems have 0 as the answer. But 0! = 1.)
 
5:46 AM
Since you can express that combinatorics problem as a sequence of independent choices--which items you choose from in each choice depends on which you chose before, but how many you choose between doesn't, instead depending only on how many choices you've made so far--it is equal to the product of the number of choices you have each time, i.e., n! = n × (n - 1) × (n - 2) × ... × 2 × 1. Or as one usually writes it n! = n(n - 1)(n - 2)...(2)(1).
This holds even when multiplication and the factorial are separately defined combinatorically -- rather than the factorial being defined as that product, which is a common approach.
One may also use the big pi notation for this. One advantage of that notation is that its meaning is more precise and clear than that of an expression with ... in it.
For example, both n(n - 1)(n - 2)...(2)(1) and the corresponding expression in big pi notation are intended to be meaningful even when there are fewer than 5 factors being multiplied, but in the ... notation one must know which factors are illustrative and thus not present for sufficiently small n. (In this case it's all of them.)
@EliahKagan That is, if you use the combinatoric interpretation of multiplication and the combinatoric interpretation of the factorial, then the relationship between multiplication and the factorial is (at least arguably, and I do argue for this) a substantive statement about them, rather than merely a definition.
 
6:09 AM
0! = 1 because there's one permutation of zero items: ⟨⟩. That is, if we're seating three people in three seats, call the people Alice, Bob, and Cassidy, there are 3! = 6 ways to do that: ⟨Alice, Bob, Cassidy⟩, ⟨Alice, Cassidy, Bob⟩, ⟨Bob, Alice, Cassidy⟩, ⟨Bob, Cassidy, Alice⟩, ⟨Cassidy, Alice, Bob⟩, ⟨Cassidy, Bob, Alice⟩. If we're seating two people in two seats, call the people Alice and Bob, there are 2! = 2 ways to do that: ⟨Alice, Bob⟩, ⟨Bob, Alice⟩.
If we're seating one person in one seat, call the person Alice, there is 1! = 1 way to do that: ⟨Alice⟩. If we're seating zero people in zero seats, there is 0! = 1 way to do that: ⟨⟩
In stating it this way, it is my intention the relationship to the combinatoric meaning of multiplication, and empty products is apparent.
 
6:49 AM
@Zanna I should say, without using empty products, you can still perform that cancellation by rewriting the numerator x as 1x first.
 
7:12 AM
@Zanna Since it turns out you know some set theory, I think it might make sense to proceed along the lines of the set theory you know, skipping over some of the formal logic stuff. In particular, it may be worthwhile to skip, and return to either later or never depending on interest, expressing ordinary-language claims in with predicates, with predicates and function symbols, and with predicates and definite descriptions (i.e., the "state birds" exercise).
I still recommend you try expressing p → q in terms of "∨" and "¬" -- and noticing how applying De Morgan's laws allow you to convert from the expression of it that uses "∧" and "¬", which you figured out, to one that uses "∨" and "¬".
I will also want to say why the logic we're doing (and which is the most common logical foundation for mathematics, especially when mathematics is developed using a set-theoretic approach) is first-order logic.
That's important information about what the logic can and cannot directly express, but also it offers a very deep (and I believe practically significant) insight into why set theory is appealing and what sets fundamentally represent, as well as into why functions in mathematics are not adequately captured by function symbols in logic.
@Zanna Does that speak to the arbitrariness of what can be a set? Or of what can be an element of a set?
 
7:35 AM
@EliahKagan at least in some contexts I would be doing something like that without worrying about it, I think
@EliahKagan well, the latter...
 
Ah, I see.
 
@EliahKagan I seem to have a lot of trouble with this hahaha
I will be mostly afk today because it's the last day of my trip
 
@Zanna But you do also feel comfortable with 7 being a set, right? Do your set theory experiences so far lead you to be comfortable with that?
@Zanna I recommend using De Morgan's laws.
 
7:50 AM
@EliahKagan well it was a very limited experience but I have the impression that anything can be a set
 
@EliahKagan What you get will be meaningful -- in particular, it will be a shorter and more elegant way to express (p ∧ q) ∨ (¬p ∧ ¬q) ∨ (¬p ∧ q).
But applying De Morgan's laws is a perfectly good way to get to it, since you've already expressed the conditional in terms of conjunction and negation, and De Morgan's laws for propositional logic let you convert between compound sentences involving conjunction and negation and those involving disjunction and negation.
@Zanna If your universe of discourse is sets, yes! :)
Anything that is a set can be a member if a set: each set is a member of various sets. Some set theories allow for things that are not sets but that are members of sets: such things are called urelements (or sometimes atoms). However, you do not need urelements to do mathematics--except, I guess, in the sense that to do set theory, including set theory with urelements, is to do mathematics.
Objects of mathematical study are usually easy and often even elegant to construct (or, as one might philosophically prefer: encode) as sets.
However, there are some set theories that allow for things that are not sets and cannot be members of sets. Those things are like sets but they are too big to be considered sets; in typical treatments, those things are called proper classes (and other classes, i.e., the "improper" ones, are sets).
The most commonly used set theory in mathematics, ZFC, does not have such things. The universe of discourse of ZFC is sets. But there are other set theories, less popular but still of major importance, that do have proper classes. One such theory is NBG.
Mathematicians often talk about proper classes informally even when (implicitly or explicitly) using a set theory that doesn't have them.
By popular I mean "widely used." I'm not talking about people's judgments of the theories. Though ZFC is also very highly regarded. :)
@EliahKagan To clarify, the sentence I'm recommending you apply De Morgan's laws to is the one you found that expresses p → q in terms of "∧" and "¬". That is, you should try applying De Morgan's laws to ¬(p ∧ ¬q).
@Zanna Understood. I'm guessing you'll be afk even more often tomorrow since that's when you'll be traveling back?
 
8:19 AM
@EliahKagan yes, correct, I will be very afk. All being well I might return to my keyboard (the one whose a and d and left shift keys don't work) something like 50 hours from now
@EliahKagan urelements as in ur-elements?
 
Yes.
 
it's an expressive term haha
 
I have been thinking about article and book recommendations.
Though it is not specifically about set theory, you might be interested in A Beginner's Guide to Mathematical Logic by Raymond Smullyan.
 
ooh :)
@EliahKagan thank you for doing that
 
You're welcome. It is not an inconvenience, however.
@Zanna Btw, since you've done some set theory and the set theory you've done was with Venn diagrams, here's De Morgan's laws for sets.
 
8:30 AM
I get Image not found
 
Yeah, so do I. It's clickable, though. The onebox isn't all that useful though. I've added the link to the preceding message instead.
 
I see it although I am not sure what all those symbols mean
I'm pretty sure I did mention absolutely everything I know about set theory by now hahaha
 
"∪" (the "cup") means union and "∩" (the "cap") means intersection.
One is the other upside down. But the font used here seems to show them in a way that obscures that. I think I'm using the correct Unicode characters.
The union of sets is the set of everything in either of them.
The intersection of sets is the set of everything in both of them.
The resemblance between "∪" and "∨", and the resemblance between "∩" and "∧", are no accident.
 
in the first case, any thing included is in one or the other, and in the second case, anything included is in one and the other
 
Yes. Exactly.
For all x:
x ∈ (S ∪ T) ↔ (x ∈ S ∨ x ∈ T)
x ∈ (S ∩ T) ↔ (x ∈ S ∧ x ∈ T)
(Recall "↔" means "if and only if.")
 
8:40 AM
x is in S or T if and only if x is in S or x is in T
x is in S and T if and only if x is in S and x is in T
 
Yes. But as stated, what you've said is analytic given the grammar of English.
You haven't mentioned unions or intersections.
 
x is in the union of S and T if...
x is in the intersection of S and T if...
 
@EliahKagan S and T aren't sentences, so when you say "x is in S or T" that's just a more idiomatic way to say "x is in S or x is in T".
 
yes
 
@Zanna True. But you may prefer to say "iff" rather that "if". If you say "iff", that gives the whole story, i.e., it unambiguously tells us exactly what is and is not is the union of two sets and unambiguously tells what is and is not is in the intersection of two sets.
"iff" is a a widely used abbreviation for "if and only if".
(Widely used by mathematicians, logicians, and so forth.)
 
8:46 AM
that's useful. I would have carried on typing if I were not so lazy
 
Note also that "if" as an infix connective means "←" rather than "→".
 
now I can be lazy and say what I really mean as well
 
Good -- that's a chief aim of logic and mathematics!
(So much so that some people claim mathematics is just a language. I don't agree with this, but it gets at some truths.)
 
@EliahKagan yes, if comes in front of the cause when we're talking...
 
Yes.
The pronounciation of "→" is "only if".
I say "the pronouncation," but there are other phrases people use for it.
 
8:55 AM
@EliahKagan haha :) I think I heard something somewhere about ancient mathematical books being written with very little use of symbols, ie mostly in prose
(going to appointment)
 
@Zanna To an extent that is true even of things much more recently. Like Einstein's 1905 paper introducing special relativity. It didn't use the convenient symbols we use today for divergence and curl!
When all the members of S are members of T, i.e., ∀x (x ∈ S → x ∈ T), we say that S is a subset of T, written S ⊆ T, and we say that T is a superset of S, written T ⊇ S.
@EliahKagan I mean, that still represented them symbolically, just more cumbersomely. I think with curl to mean "the curl of" and div to mean "the divergence of."
@EliahKagan So, suppose we're specifically interested in sets whose elements are in some set U. That is, the sets we're interested are A, B, C, ..., where A ⊆ U ∧ B ⊆ U ∧ C ⊆ U ∧ .... This set U is our "universal set," but I want to demur for now as to the relationship between this and the universe of discourse of a system (unless you are specifically wondering about that) except to say ominously that things are not always as they seem or as we would want them to be. :)
That's what's going on with "U" in that picture.
"U" should not be confused with "∪".
 
9:22 AM
@Zanna But yeah, I think I know what you mean. I think people use to write things like (but in and old-timier dialect than):
> When the products of a number squared with a first coefficient and the number with a second coefficient and a third coefficient standing alone sum to zero, that number can only be the quotient of, on the one hand, the sum of the additive inverse of the second coefficient and either of the square roots of the difference of the square of the second coefficient and the product of the first and third coefficients with 4 and, on the other, twice the first coefficient.
To be clear, I am not saying anyone wrote that specifically (except me here, and I am sorry). But I think I've read short quotes, in newer works, from very old manuscripts, that were kind of like that.
 
9:44 AM
@EliahKagan (There was nothing at all unclear about what you said. In fact, I was the one speaking in a (deliberately) loose fashion in suggesting that Einstein's 1905 special relativity paper was to an extent a case of this. What I then meant to say, rather than, "I think I know what you mean," was, "I think I know of what you mean.)
 
10:37 AM
my appointment was delayed by almost an hour
 
Welcome back! :)
 
that was good, because while I was waiting it occurred to me that it might be enough to express p → q by saying ¬p ∨ q because as long as at least one of these things is true we will be ok
@EliahKagan thanks :)
 
@Zanna Yes! :)
Do you know what it means for a binary operation to have an identity element?
 
@EliahKagan Hopefully the struggle to reach this conclusion, which seems obvious now, has itself been in some way instructive XD
@EliahKagan no
 
@Zanna One of the difficulties of symbolic representation is that it sometimes causes one to lose sight of the obvious. This is not so bad when obvious claims are actually false, or when obvious claims are true but for reasons other than what makes them obvious. But it is bad when obvious claims are true for the reasons they are obvious.
@Zanna Such an object is often simply called an identity. The phrase "identity element" is sometimes useful in that one sometimes calls equations identities, and so there is possible ambiguity in the meaning of "identity." There are some other things "identity" means too. They are all related.
For example, the additive identity is 0. The multiplicative identity is 1.
 
10:50 AM
@EliahKagan yes and it's not just long to write but also difficult to follow
 
Yeah, I have no confidence that I even wrote that correctly. :)
Imagine memorizing that! Best argument ever for completing the square every time. :)
 
hahaha yes
 
It is hard to formalize this perfectly at this stage, because what do I mean by "makes sense to put"? But an identity e of a binary operation @ is an element where e @ x = x for any x that makes sense to put to the right of @, and where y @ e = y for any y that makes sense to put on the left of @.
Another way to say it is that the e @ x = x part makes e a left identity of @, and the y @ e = y part makes e a right identity of @. An identity of @ is then an object that is both a left identity of @ and a right identity of @.
 
ok. So 0 + x = x and 1 x x = x
 
I feel like you are using the symbol x in two different ways in the second atomic sentence. :)
 
10:58 AM
that is true, yes, sorry for that
 
No problem, I was able to figure it out.
Yes. Though strictly speaking you only stated that 0 is a left identity of addition and that 1 is a right identity of multiplication.
 
I could use * instead or I could find a nice rounded x
 
However, for commutative operations, a left identity is always a right identity and vice versa.
 
I see!
 
@Zanna Or a centered dot. Or just write one after the other. :)
 
10:59 AM
the case is different for taking away and dividing
 
Yes.
Speaking of those...
 
@EliahKagan yes, but that 1x = x is something that feels not worth writing at all
 
@EliahKagan Do you know what it means for an object to have an inverse with respect to a binary operation?
 
@EliahKagan no
 
@Zanna I don't know, I feel like that is a very important property of 1. :)
 
11:03 AM
haha I didn't mean to say that it isn't worth writing, only that it is something I am very accustomed to not writing, that is I get 1x, so I write x
 
@Zanna Take a binary operation @ with an identity e. Then we say x and y are inverses (of each other, i.e., x is an inverse of y and y is an inverse of x) when x @ y = e and y @ x = e.
 
ok, so, with multiplication, 1/x * x = 1
 
@EliahKagan Another way to say it is that the x @ y = e part makes x a left inverse of y and makes y a right inverse of x, whilst the y @ x = e part makes y a left inverse of x and x a right inverse of y. When something is both a left and right inverse of an object (with respect to some binary operation), we say it is an inverse of that object (with respect to that binary operation). When @ is commutative, a left inverse is always a right inverse and vice versa.
@Zanna That is true for most x, but multiplication is not in general invertible. It is possible to pick an x for which the sentence you have written is false. There is only one such x, though.
(There is actually more than one thing "multiplication is not general invertible" could mean. What I mean is, "it is not generally true that if it is possible to multiply by x then x has a multiplicative inverse.")
 
@EliahKagan if x is 0 then we can't divide by it
 
@EliahKagan (Also, in mathematics, "generally" means "always". This is one of the meanings of "general" in ordinary English, though perhaps not the most common meaning of it. For example, "general purpose" and "all purpose" usually mean the same thing in ordinary English.)
@Zanna Indeed.
Every number but 0 has a multiplicative inverse, though.
 
11:14 AM
@EliahKagan I'm glad you clarified that
 
:)
I had said "an identity" in defining what an identity is. But identities are unique. That is, suppose we have a binary operation @ and we know a is an identity of @ and b is an identity of @. Then a = b. Can you think of a way to prove that?
 
no... although I see that it must be true
 
Why must it be true?
(You are right that it must, but I am curious as to what you're thinking. Also, if you say what you're thinking, maybe that will be the proof.)
I can give a good hint if you want one.
But I am interested in what you mean when you say you see it must be true.
 
I feel like I might benefit from thinking about it for a while
 
Okay. Is that to say that you do not want the hint? (If so, that is fine.)
 
11:29 AM
the hint would be nice :)
 
An identity is both a left identity and a right identity.
 
you sort of said that earlier and I was thinking I need to think about this
I am going to go off and do some packing sorts of things
 
@Zanna Indeed. The hint is that this is a useful way to notice why a binary operation that has an identity has only one identity.
@Zanna Okay.
 
:)
 
I may go afk between now and when you get back, so I'll mention the next thing I was going to ask after this: ∪ and ∩ are binary operations on sets. (Notice also that they are commutative and associative.) Does ∪ have an identity? Does ∩? I haven't said much of anything about specifically which sets exist, so you may not know for sure--but what would a set be like to be the identity of ∪, and what would a set be like to be the identity of ∩?
 
 
1 hour later…
1:04 PM
I've got a good feeling about these questions
 
@Zanna Did you have any thoughts about how we can know that a binary operation's identity, if it has one, is unique?
 
1:48 PM
Also if you want another hint I can give one.
But (and this is not the hint I would give but just generally a good way to approach uniqueness proofs) if you had two, what would happen?
 
2:06 PM
@EliahKagan I haven't yet
@EliahKagan bad stuff?
@EliahKagan sure! :)
 
@Zanna Well, if you want to show something is not so, then the kind of stuff it would help to show can be inferred from it is false stuff. The best is often impossible stuff (i.e., stuff that is logically impossible).
 
:)
 
@Zanna No matter what you pick, combining it with an identity leaves it unchanged.
 
yes...
 
That is, for any object x that makes sense to give as an argument to a binary operation @, where e is an identity of @, we have x @ e = e @ x = x.
To be more precise, the assumption I am making there is that x can appear on either the left or right side of @.
@Zanna So like... if you have two identity elements a and b of @ two objects a and b that are identities with respect to a binary operation @, can you play around with them and see what happens?
 
2:19 PM
I am totally going to do that later
or maybe while flying
 
Sorry about the (now crossed out) wording, by the way. I did not mean to say a ∈ @ or b ∈ @. Binary operations are very often themselves constructed as sets but even when they are it is not generally the case the the individual objects that can be passed as their first or second arguments are members of them. I did not mean to suggest anything like that, but my imprecise wording may have had that effect.
@Zanna Are you flying today?
I'm not trying to push you into continuing on it today if you don't want to. On the other hand, I'm concerned I may have made it seem that the proof is more complicated than it really is.
 
@EliahKagan in about 23 and a half hours
@EliahKagan I doubt that you have made it seem more complicated than it is, only I am very slow at thinking and when I'm going to travel I get very preoccupied because I like everything to be perfectly organised
 
Ah.
Well, if you feel like continuing about identities now and how they apply to union and intersection, then I can give the proof. There will be many more opportunities for you to prove things. But I don't wish to deprive you of the experience of proving this in particular, and there is no hurry to continue, especially if now is not a good time.
 
:) :)
 
What I meant by deprive, though, was the sense that applies to taking something away that you wish to have.
Basically, I'm foisting the decision as to whether or not I should prove it now onto you. :)
 
2:35 PM
yes I want to try to do it myself
 
Okay.
 
I'm sorry for not being more clear about what I want. I often create a lot of problems for other people like that
 
I think I can't speak to most of that because I don't know the details of it. (I'm not requesting the details, I'm just saying I don't know them, in case you thought I might.) It hasn't been a problem in this conversation, though.
 
thanks :)
 
There is another line of thought here. I don't know if you feel like it now or not, but it would provide a way to continue with logic and set theory, without spoiling the proof that a binary operation's identity is unique. In particular, I am talking about how the logic we're using is first-order logic. Do you want to hear about that?
 
2:57 PM
How are you guys'n'gals doing btw? wasnt very active the past months as i found a new hobby :)
 
@Videonauth I'm curious as to what hobby... if you feel like saying. Is it related to ProtonDB?
 
no its only closely related to computers :) i put a few pictures into the other channel as i do not want to hijack here to much
@EliahKagan Its photography, I bought myself a camera and enjoy it really
 
That's cool!
 
@Videonauth that's awesome :) :)
 
Sadly i had to downsize those two, i made about 1000 photogrpahs in the past 3 months
 
3:03 PM
You had to downsize them to post them here, or for some other reason?
 
@Zanna I even found that im not really into photogrpahing people lol, animals however are my absolute joy
@EliahKagan yes to post them here
the originals are far to big for imgur or other services, filesize wise
 
Ah.
 
But still you can zoom in a whole lot :)
 
@EliahKagan yes I would love to hear about it
@Videonauth wow that's awesome!
 
Sadly actually the cold weather does not make it easy to find motives
And Zoo's here all prohibit photography (or at least online posting of pictures taken)
 
3:08 PM
Zoos prohibit photography?
Why do they do that?
It can't have to do with protecting animals/wildlife, since they're specifically prohibiting posting photos. That seems to me like this might not be a good policy for them to have. (Not that there is much you can do about it.)
 
Photographing people is really difficult. I really admire those few photographers who do a great job of it. But I find that portraits either strike me as exploitative or as unheimlich. Like, a good portrait should actually disturb us somehow
 
well you can take photos in most of em but they want theroyalities for that and force you to register with them first, the local zoo for example wants you to name the zoo with every photo you take online, and if you would do it for maybe selling a print or so they want upfront 500-10000 euros fees in order to alow oyu that
the laws for interlectual property make that possible here in germany
@Zanna well unheimlich :D german word, i guess what you experience with most photographs of people is the uncanny valley effect
Photogrpahing people here in Germany draws a lot of paperwork with it, every person you shoot has to give you a release form to put you on the legal side
Otheerwise they could sue you for invading their privacy, so I avoid people completely on my photographs
 
it's the same here. But there are two better reasons I don't take photographs of people without their consent; first that I think consent is extremely important, and second, although I don't really know how to express this, that I feel that the human subject of a photograph should set the terms of how they meet the gaze of the viewer
 
@Zanna We can quantify over objects. But can we quantify over predicates?
 
Yes, it is important but on the other side it limits you somehow, for example you can photograph a building but in the case that people are on this photograph you are in a legally grey zone
I see photography as an art tho, grown up with it but had long time no camera on my own
 
3:23 PM
I've twice read Susan Sontag's book On Photography and three times read Roland Barthes' book Camera Lucida and once read John Berger's book Ways of Seeing and I strongly feel that it is unethical to present human subjects to the viewer in any way that the subject has not been involved in directing. Not only because it might harm the subject, but because it encourages the viewer to adopt the attitude that other people exist for their consumption or pleasure...
 
An example of when we might want to do this to be able to express, "For all unary predicates F, for all objects x, for all objects y: if x = y and Fx, then Fy."
(The predicate does not need to be unary for something like this to hold, I'm just giving a simple example.)
 
so I think the good portrait is disturbing, it makes us self-conscious, it provides a channel for the subject to communicate something to the viewer. The photographer should have a kind of humility for this to happen I think
 
@Zanna I agree on that tho, but lets say you're photographing the Taj Mahal for example, the Building id the main focus of your shot, but you almost are not be able to have no people on the picture, here in germany youre in trouble with that alone, im not talking about portraits or other forms where the person is the center focus
 
@Videonauth I think here there are some helpful rules about people being seen in a public place and not being identifiable
although I don't remember the details
 
Thats just an example
in this case youre getting limited in your art as a photographer
 
3:27 PM
that is, if people are not readily identifiable in your picture and they are in a public place then you don't need a release. But IANAL and I'm not sure how far (or where or in what context) this applies
 
Yes and thats is the problem, if someone is able to indentify himself on such a picture youre are legaly obliged to have a release, at least in germany otherwise youre breaking the law
so running around with a big block of release forms for photogrpahing a building is usually the way to go
or you take such long eexposures that the people which are moving are not visible anymore at all
 
anyway, I also like taking close-up nature shots, partly just because I probably wouldn't look that well at things if I didn't try to make them and it's endlessly delightful how beautiful living things are
 
yes, i found that small insects have a special fascination on them
 
I think, if I visit the Taj Mahal, I shan't bother to take any pictures of it, since every possible picture of it has already been taken, and I had better just enjoy looking at it for myself
 
you will not see it so nice as if you take a good picture and have time to really study it
 
3:32 PM
but there are lots of underappreciated buildings that it's nice to take pictures of
 
what I'm fond of are abstract street photography of light and shadown for example
 
I'm going to move the photography-related discussion to the Island.
 
thanks!
 
No problem.
 
@EliahKagan yes, thank you
 
3:34 PM
:)
 
@EliahKagan why not?
 
35 messages moved from Raiders of the Lost Downboat
 
Sorry about the delay in moving those messages -- please carry on! :)
 
At least my kitty is a willing victim for portrait shots :D
 
3:37 PM
@Zanna There are some practical and theoretical problems.
 
@EliahKagan not at all. thank you for doing it
 
No problem!
 
@EliahKagan I haven't thought of them yet :D
 
Usually I have not been fastidious with quotation because usually the meaning is clear from context. But in some cases exactitude is needed. So, in the foregoing, I will attempt to quote in a precisely correct manner.
As I have presented atomic sentences, "Fx" makes a claim about x. It does not make a claim about "x", except in the weird case that "x" is a name for "x".
 
ok
 
3:43 PM
In quantification, one quantifies over objects. "∃x Fx" does not say, and cannot correctly be used to infer, that there is some letter for which ⌜ F that letter ⌝ is true.
In contrast, predicates, as I have presented them, are purely syntactic.
The same goes for function symbols, if you use those.
Other examples of symbols that are purely syntactic are the logical symbols, which include quantifiers, truth-functional sentential connectives, and parentheses.
This is not the only way to do it.
 
I am not sure what you mean by saying they are purely syntactic
 
The sentence "I went to the store but it was closed." refers (or tries to refer) to something as "the store" but it does not try to refer to something as "but".
Not everything in a sentence is grammatically a name. But to quantify over a symbol is to introduce it for use as a name.
 
ok, yes
@EliahKagan should the sentence have an "and" in it though, for this example to make sense?
 
I've fixed the problem by making them both "but". Thanks.
Consider logic with the universe of discourse we were using earlier with the objects named by the constants "a", "b", "c", "d", "e" and with no other objects.
We had the sentence: "Fa ∧ Fb ∧ Fc ∧ Fd ∧ Fe"
Assuming our underlying logic provides identity, we also have the sentence: "a = b"
"F" and "=" are predicates in the language of the system. But when we quantify, we are not quantifying over them.
 
yes...
 
3:59 PM
Suppose I write "z" to mean Zeke. When I talk about Zeke using formal logic, I use "z". It is fine for me to sometimes use a system in which Zeke is not part of the universe of discourse. But it is not fine for me to go around using "z" to refer to Zeke when working in that system. That system could have true sentences claiming that something is so for every thing, which is not so for Zeke.
I am not saying no logic can allow you to quantify over predicates. But prohibiting it is not an additional restriction that makes the system more complicated; permitting it would be an additional permission that raises formal and conceptual issues and makes the system more complicated. It might be worth it but it doesn't come for free.
 
@EliahKagan but why would that matter if Zeke is not a thing in that universe?
 
@Zanna In general it would not matter. But are you saying that "Fz" in the language of that system makes sense, when interpreted in such a way that "z" refers to Zeke?
 
ok, no
 
But because "F" (and the constants) are in the signature of our system with the small universe of discourse, the sentence "Fa ∧ Fb ∧ Fc ∧ Fd ∧ Fe" does make sense.
In the case of "F", there are also questions about precisely what it should mean to quantify over predicates so as to make claims that cover it.
For example, we might have a system S and another system T. The universe of discourse of system S is sets, or sasquatches, or something. The universe of discourse of system T is texts in the alphabet of system S (where by "the alphabet" I mean the symbols from which sentences of the language are made).
Assuming we think of predicates as purely syntactic, and also that we are using a dialect with one-letter predicates, "predicate" and "predicate letter" mean the same thing. Then system T's universe of discourse does include the predicates of system S. It presumably does not include any of the objects.
(System T is all the texts, i.e., all the strings, so there is no need to limit ourselves to the case were the predicates are one-letter long; that's just for simplicity.)
System T might provide the machinery to assert that a particular object (i.e., a particular text in the alphabet of system S) is a true sentence. Like, maybe system T has a predicate "T", where "Tx" means ⌜x is true⌝.
You can imagine that a system such as T could easily be powerful enough to get done -- through a layer of indirection, i.e., by making claims about claims about sets, or sasquatches, or something -- what you would want to get done by being able to quantify over predicates in the system S.
But that is probably not how you would want to do it.
Mainly... it is very cumbersome!
By analogy to programming languages, imagine I am trying to convince you to use my programming language A, and you ask me, "In A, can I store a reference to a subroutine in a variable, and call the subroutine from that variable later?" And imagine if I said, "No, but you don't need that feature. Instead, you should use my programming language B, which is a special-purpose programming language for generating and inspecting source code of A."
You would probably say, "(A) Eliah, you said you were telling me I should use A! And (B) What??!???!??! The actual problems I want to solve are not about, and not reasonably expressed, in terms of the entities B has facilities for."
Therefore, one of the approaches people sometimes take is to use a logic that is powerful enough to permit one to quantify over predicates (and deals with the design decisions and conceptual issues that come along with that).
A system that allows one to quantify over objects but not predicates is a first-order system.
That's why the logic I've been showing is first-order logic.
A system that allows one to quantify over objects and also to quantify over predicates that take objects as their arguments is a second-order system.
A system that allows one to quantify over objects, over predicates that take objects as their arguments, and over predicates that take predicates (and perhaps also objects) as their arguments, is a third-order system.
And so forth.
(It does not have to be limited.)
A logic that is higher order than first-order logic is called a higher order logic.
The things a second-order (or more generally any higher-order) logic can do, and the things a metasystem over a first-order logic such as system T in the above example can do, are not the same.
And they're conceptually quite different.
In a higher order logic, predicates (and function symbols... though my preferred term "function symbol" becomes less reasonable once one gets to second-order logic) are a kind of objects.
A second order system that has (to keep the example simple) constants "a" an "b" lets one express ideas like "Any gadgetary property that holds for a holds for b." In contrast, a metasystem about a system with constants "a" and "b" lets one express ideas like, "Widgetary sentences are true when the name "a" is replaced by b."
"Gadgetary" and "widgetary" are meaningless; I'm just using "is gadgetary" as an example of a second-order predicate (a predicate used to talk about predicates) in a second-order system about some topic, and I'm using "is widgetary" as an example of a first-order predicate (a predicate used to talk about objects) in a first-order system that is used to study a first-order system about that topic.
I believe a higher order logic will typically have quantifiers of different orders, where each quantifies over things of that order or of that order and lower. Unfortunately I don't know much about how second (and higher) order logic works and how it is used.
What I am more familiar with and have used (but that is not the same as saying I'm highly knowledgeable about it) is multi-sorted systems. That's a way to deal with the problem of having objects that you don't (always) want to cover when you quantify. That is, a two-sorted system could solve the problem in the Zeke example above.
Like, suppose you want ∀x ... to mean, "All uncool humans..."
But Zeke is an uncool robot-dog, not a human.
But you sometimes want to say something about Zeke.
Then you could have separate quantifiers for uncool humans and uncool robot-dogs.
Conceptually the quantifiers are what differ, i.e., some mean things like "All uncool humans..." and "Some uncool human..." while others mean things like "All uncool robot-dogs..." and "Some uncool robot-dog..." But the way it is usually (maybe always?) symbolized is to use different symbols for the variables to clarify what sort of thing--i.e., which universe of discourse--they reign over.
You can also have that one sort encompasses another.
 
5:01 PM
I went away for what was supposed to be a minute or two and turned into a long time
 
A lot of the time you might think to use a two-sorted (or more) system to distinguish between kinds of things by regarding those kinds of things as sorts, you can and very probably should instead do it with a one-sorted system that has one or more predicates that distinguish between different kinds of things. But there are some good uses for two-sorted systems.
 
@EliahKagan hahaha
 
@EliahKagan You might also point out that, just based on my description of B, it is not obvious whether or not it can actually do everything that A, augmented with the feature you want, could do.
 
5:17 PM
@EliahKagan I can give an example of a situation where you would want to use a two-sorted system, but I'll let you give feedback on what I've said so far, first.
 
@EliahKagan to use different symbols for the variables and not the quantifiers?
 
Right.
 
could you show me what that might look like?
 
Yes.
(Hold on.)
 
there is definitely no rush at all
 
5:26 PM
Suppose the sorts are snacks and mutants. For snacks, you might decide to use variables "s", "t", "u", "v", and "w" -- and for more variables, to use them primed ("s'") or subscripted ("s₂") or both. For mutants, you might decide to use variables "m", "n", "o", "p", "q", and "r", also with primes or subscripts if you need more.
Then with the unary predicate E meaning "eats," you might write:
∃m ∀s Ems
"Some mutant eats all the snacks."
 
hahaha
 
In contrast, I could (and for that sort of thing usually would) use a one-sorted system with predicates like "M" for "is a mutant" and "S" for "is a snack", and, assuming I still have those variables in my signature, write:
∃m (Mm ∧ ∀s (Ss → Ems))
(One often has notation that makes that less cumbersome. I hope, perhaps fairly soon, to show you some such notation often used in set theory.)
 
so in a one-sorted system we need predicates to specify what sort of things objects are, but we could also have a system with more sorts so we wouldn't need predicates just to say an object is a thing of that sort
 
If paying close attention, I would not call them sorts when speaking of what is done in a one-sorted system, but yes, I agree with that. However, I think this--not so much what you've just said, but also what I've said so far--may be misleading when it comes to the reasons people use multi-sorted systems.
A case where I would really want a two-sorted system is if, for instance, I have unusual beliefs about bobcats, which I think the set theory ZFC is mostly able to express. I think ZFC is just about spot-on when it comes to bobcats; I consider ZFC's universe of discourse to cover most, but not all bobcats. Informally, I think all sets are bobcats. But some bobcats are not sets. I could make a one-sorted system with an "is a set" predicate.
Instead, I have two sorts: sets, and bobcats. Sets are bobcats, of course, but there are also bobcats that are not sets, which I call proper bobcats. ZFC is a perfectly good theory of sets (or, as I call them, improper bobcats) but it's just not powerful enough for all the claims I want to express about bobcats.
 
5:41 PM
hahaha
 
This system is an extension of ZFC. That is, it has the language and signature of ZFC, and all the axioms of ZFC are axioms of it. Now, I might not want to accept any claims about sets that ZFC cannot substantiate. So I could take care to ensure that it is what's called a conservative extension of ZFC. My system has theorems that are not theorems of ZFC, but none of them are even expressible in ZFC.
For many years, nobody takes my ideas about bobcats seriously. But this might change if my system provides an intuitive, convenient, or conceptually interesting way to prove things that are expressible in the language of ZFC. Those things are theorems of ZFC. There are proofs for them in ZFC, of course, but it might be hard to come up with those proofs, or they might be less illuminating. Even people who don't buy this whole "every set is a special sort of bobcat" business may be interested.
@EliahKagan I meant to write "and all the theorems are theorems of it." What's important is not what's stated as an axiom to start with, but what is provable.
@EliahKagan People will be especially interested if, one day, I prove a contradiction with my bobcats system. Assuming I'm correct that my bobcats system really is a conservative extension of ZFC, that would mean ZFC is inconsistent. As far as is known, ZFC is consistent. By this I mean it's widely assumed to be consistent and that no one has proved it is not. It is widely used under the assumption that it is consistent. It would be a big deal if someone found it isn't.
(The contradiction I manage to prove first doesn't have to be expressible in ZFC. If I prove any contradiction in my bobcats system, I can then infer anything I like from it, including anything expressible in the language of ZFC, including a contradiction in the language of ZFC.)
In this case, people will no longer consider me a weirdo with a vast and empirically unsupported bobcat ontology. I will have contributed greatly to both philosophy and mathematics, and people will say: "Kagan, you were even wronger about bobcats than we thought! As you have shown, nothing that works like even the less implausible improper bobcats can exist!"
 
lol XD
 
Replace "bobcats" with "classes" and the foregoing is a description of NBG -- with the important difference that I am not the originator of NBG.
 
it sounds better with bobcats though
 
Yeah, the "B" in "NBG" does not stand for "bobcat."
 
5:55 PM
I haven't heard of this Bernays though
 
Have you heard of David Hilbert? Paul Bernays worked with David Hilbert.
 
hmm no
 
He worked with Paul Bernays. :)
 
hahaha
 
Back to the limitations of first-order logic though...
 
6:03 PM
no bobcats frowns slightly, realising she hasn't grasped much of this so far
 
Can you elaborate?
Like, both improper bobcat theory (which most people call ZFC) and the true theory of all bobcats great and small (which most people call NBG) are first-order theories.
:)
But also, I am hoping you can say more, to the point of stuff you have not grasped.
 
what I really mean, I think, is that I need to read all your messages again. I think I skimmed some earlier
 
Oh.
 
also I think I need to shut down this laptop and see if I have anything on it I want to keep (not in that order though)
 
I should probably read them too--and reread yours. At least our messages from today, which I've not yet gone back and reread. I might find that I have made some horrible errors! :)
 
6:09 PM
hahaha maybe you threw some in to see if I was paying attention
 
I will probably remember what I plan to say next (in this line of thought), because it's the part about why set theory is appealing and what sets fundamentally represent.
 
if you want to continue now please feel free, only I will read it later which is not a problem for me at all
 
I will be going afk soon, so I may say more before you come back to read it, but it will probably not be immediately.
Btw, have you heard of Raymond Smullyan?
 
you mentioned him this (for me) morning, as the author of that book you recommended. Otherwise I have not heard of him. But I read some stuff about that book and added it to some wishlist and will probably hint to my brother that he might want to buy it for me
 
@Videonauth Do you have a website showcasing photographs (or a devart account etc.)? I'm not saying you need to have one, I'm just curious. If you do have one then I am very interested to look at it! (I only know of your blog with the debootstrap post.)
 
6:18 PM
I would like to look at that too
 
6:30 PM
@Zanna I had been meaning to ask you about case in natural languages, and what you like about it. I am particularly interested in how it affects communication in languages where it's more prevalent than English (which hardly has it).
@Zanna What kinds of math? Also, do you think this was because it was taught in a way that did not work well for that student, or because of something essential to the material itself?
Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding the bit about number bonds... but I'm not sure what the value is for most people in attempting to memorize addition facts. I'm not saying I've not heard of that, only that it doesn't seem very useful to me. But maybe number bonds are not what I think they are?
 
@EliahKagan No not yet, actually I do it as kind of therapy for my PTSD and Agoraphobia
I needed a reason to go outside and having a focus on taking pictures keeps me from thinking to much about what happened in my past
I have a deviant art page but that is old stuff only
 

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