@Unionhawk y u so mad bront?

it's pay inequality brent

scrolls up no we should not legitimize hostage taking as a tactic thanks

@Unionhawk but then they can't shut down the government to get their way with controversial policies like the wall

@Unionhawk one house dem proposed legislation like this with a "stop STUPIDITY" act (yay wild acronyms)

@Unionhawk Oh, come on. I understand the problems here, but people are missing paychecks. It's not unreasonable to consider the option of making concessions here to help those people

@GodEmperorDune and didn't McConnell block it?

@Memor-X separate thing

the stop stupidity act is a thing that says "whenever there is no new budget, keep everything at current levels"

the stuff mcconnell blocked is an explicit "keep funding at these levels for X timeframe"

@murgatroid99 mcconnell and trump could help those people by backing down from the ultimatum they delivered

they do not care about the furloughed workers

they have not given any impression that they care about the workers

@GodEmperorDune Yes, both sides could do something to help those people.

The fact that the Republicans won't doesn't mean that the Democrats shouldn't

@murgatroid99 why is it always up to the democrats to back down and be responsible?

@GodEmperorDune Because I assume that among the two groups, the Democrats actually have the capacity for compromise and responsibility

And, further, I see the Democrats as "us". We are capable of choosing our own actions, not others' actions

@murgatroid99 that rewards the republicans for being irresponsible and stubborn jerks

@GodEmperorDune I know it does. It would also allow those people to be paid. It can be both of those things at once

Not rewarding Republicans for acting shitty shouldn't be the goal. Doing what's right for the people should be the goal. Maybe accepting the republicans' proposal isn't the right thing for the people, but dismissing the option out of hand just because it rewards the republicans for acting poorly isn't the right way to approach the issue.

@murgatroid99 we have been rewarding the republicans for doing dickish things for over a decade and as a result they do it more often with greater intensity

If the hostage taker kills the hostage, is it still a moral victory that you didn't pay the ransom?

@Ash they realized this years ago and have public statements to that effect

nymag.com/intelligencer/2011/08/…

> “I think some of our members may have thought the default issue was a hostage you might take a chance at shooting. Most of us didn’t think that. What we did learn is this — it’s a hostage that’s worth ransoming. And it focuses the Congress on something that must be done.”

this is mitch mcconnell in 2011

you may remember that we had near govt shutdowns about the debt ceiling over and over during obama's presidency

(the source page on washington post isn't loading for me)

So, let's say Rs literally never budge, and Ds don't give in to their absurd demands. Then we have to wait at least 2 years for the next election to actually force through something reasonable. Can we live with the world we would have by that time?

@murgatroid99 i think we'd have riots before then

probably the first snap election in US history

definitely more govt worker strikes

@GodEmperorDune With 40% of the country that (including a large part of the group that carries guns) brainwashed by conservative propaganda, I'm not really that confident that this outcome would work out in our favor

"let's say the other side is willing to sit on their hands unless all their demands are met. Why not meet them then?" like,

come on

@murgatroid99 nope its definitely a we all lose type of situation

yeah fuck it why not build a monument to racism of it means that this just happens again in 6 months or whatever, who cares

as many issues as i have with jonathan chait, i agree with this piece

@Unionhawk Can you please not put words in my mouth like that?

I'm sorry for taking the negation of "D's don't give in to their absurd demands", from above, to its logical place

@Unionhawk It's not all black and white. Letting the Rs burn the world down because they don't get their way isn't a viable outcome either

@Ash I never said that

@Ash Sometimes the only options we have are bad ones

@murgatroid99 what's an acceptable amount of attacks on immigration then. An acceptable level of building, again, a giant monument to racism. Because to me the answer to both of those is none. But you know

@Unionhawk What's an acceptable number of people dying from hunger?

None.

They're just going to fucking do this again, every time.

You can't just look at the consequences of one side of a choice and act like choosing it would be a complete capitulation

You know this, you've seen this, I know this, I've seen this

@murgatroid99 the better of the options we have are to not capitulate until trump gives up

It happens all the fucking time and they get away with it every fucking time

Because they know only one side actually cares about people

maybe his base will realize "oh shit the govt shutdown is actually impacting THINGS I NEED, maybe the govt does useful things after all"

@GodEmperorDune Or they'll believe that it's all the democrats' fault, or that it's fake news, or that those services never actually existed

@murgatroid99 dem's fault sure, but you can't doubt that the check you used to cash never existed in the first place

when your business's tax returns never come back

(for the record his base is suburban boat dealers etc)

I don't know what the answer here is.

But I do know that the answer is not, giving these fuckers what they want every time they decide to hold 800,000 workers and many millions more people hostage.

I'm not sure I've reiterated lately exactly how terrible Gaetz is but this helps

Don't kick the god damn football

Because they will do this again, and again, and again, because they do not care about workers, and they do not care about people who depend on federal services.

@TimStone i bet you do love the kush, rep gaetz

@Unionhawk All I'm asking is this: do you think there is ever a point where it is better to give in than to keep the government shut down? Is there a line?

probably as much as you love that sweet sweet post congress job waiting for you at the trump org or kushner co provided they still exist

@murgatroid99 if we're playing wild ideas, trump and pence resign, pelosi sworn in

Listen, if they want to talk immigration ""reform"", I don't see where the budget is even related in any way.

That's not the question. Right now the Democrats have two choices: give in to Republican demands, or keep the government shut down. Right now, they are choosing not to give in. Is there ever a point where the other choice is the right one?

Honestly there's no easy answer to this situation. If you just give in to Trump and the GOP they'll just keep pulling this shit, but on the other hand people are literally living without pay cheques.

Frankly the only real solution to this problem is to ensure this shit can't happen in the first place. It's completely ridiculous.

but that'sj ust a "prevent it from happening again" thing

@Ash I believe so, yes

I think they voted a bill to do that a week or two into the shutdown...?

From what I've seen, full time employees will get back pay, but contractors won't

@Ash direct fulltime employees yes, contractors no

Right now the Republicans have two choices. Reopen the government, or don't. We need strong movements against their choice to not, but as far as I'm concerned, letting hostage takers get away with hostage taking is not on my list of options.

I'm also not a member of congress

hourly employees that are not contractors, depends on dept

So I get the luxury of seeing this from the outside.

My position is that yes, eventually capitulating to R demands is a better choice than allowing the shutdown to continue, because eventually the immediate marginal harm of keeping the government shutdown outweighs the longer-term harm of giving Rs what they want.

@Unionhawk ^ now it's out of your local circle

@Memor-X uhhhhhhh u wot m8

@murgatroid99 can you please restate for the record what that longer term harm is.

> "I just explain it as showing school spirit. We have many themes. Like nerd, business, whiteout, blue out, blackout — as you've seen in the video," [Sam Schroder] said.

Other than, obviously, that this just happens again

@Unionhawk What is this, an interrogation?

I just want to be clear

Who exactly are we willing to throw under the bus

You can ask the same question for both options. And the answer in both cases is probably "some subset of the poor"

@murgatroid99 I think he was asking who you think we should toss under the boss, not who society as a whole and/or the government will decide.

what

That series of words doesn't,

?

@Unionhawk Then I'm not sure what you were asking tbh

Mind you that this very day trump tweeted that rhyme about the wall

@GodEmperorDune I somehow completely misread "Minority Leader Schumer" as "Supreme Leader Snoke"

in any case as it turns out the more specific answer here is "immigrants to the united states broadly speaking"

but nice work turning it into a both sides question

since that is also technically correct

raises hand

I have a question

@TimStone Holiday?

Doesn't mention that though...

@Unionhawk Please, again, stop putting words in my mouth

Also that really looks like someone repurposed a zellers

@Wipqozn No it just closes on weekends, which seems like an odd choice

@murgatroid99 you literally said the words "both options" come on

@TimStone (specifically Saturday and Sunday are only 7am-10pm)

@Unionhawk You know as well as I do that "both sides" is a phrase with specific connotation, and that's not what I meant there

@TimStone how does it close, it's 24 hours?

@murgatroid99 I'm sorry, I was under the impression that the options here were democrats refusing, or democrats conceding to republican demands.

Giving in to republican demands would hurt people. Keeping the government shut down is also hurting people. It's not so simple as saying that conceding to the republicans would be bad, so the other choice is good

I offered an alternate framing of this shifting the responsibility, but I guess you missed it

@TimStone I feel so betrayed

Actually I suppose they didn't say "24/7 hour" fitness... even if both are very often the same thing, on the context

Workin' the loophole

@Unionhawk I didn't miss it, it's just besides the point. The question I'm asking is "what should the Democrats do?" and "Is there a point where the Democrats should make a different choice?"

Yes, this is the Republicans' fault, and primarily the Republicans' responsibility. That doesn't change the fact that the Democrats have the capability to make a choice that would change the outcome.

Everyone who has the power to change the outcome of a situation shares some fraction of the moral culpability for that outcome.

I do not have a response to that string of messages paired with "I didn't say both sides" that is not trolling.

Honestly.

I'm just going to point it out and let it lie

I'm not positive that most people would see it that way if you accepted that one party was actually just evil, like someone threatening to shoot two people and making you pick which one lives or they both die

@TimStone I think this is more like the trolley problem set up by an evil person. Sure, you're not morally responsible for the fact that people will die, but you can still make a choice to meaningfully change the outcome

Right but if everyone's focused on the fact someone sent the trolley to kill people and not which track it went down then which track it went down isn't the useful focus

and also the trolley is a closed loop

thus repeating the process forever

The only correct outcome is for the masses to rise up and derail the trolley

fuck yeah

Well, if we all die in the bloody inferno of revolution, at least we can stop having this conversation

Yeah you're right let's just pick the immigrant one then, since that doesn't impact me

And I won't have to live to see the fascist autocracy installed by white right wing gun nuts who are my personal favorite to win such a conflict

"Favorite" from a betting perspective, not that I think it would be good

tl;dr Kellyanne is a huge leaker big shock

But also fun to consider how many "unnamed sources" she is

@TimStone wasn't she one of Trump's confidents?

She still is for the moment

man if it's true Trump's going to go paranoid about who to trust outside of his immediate family

@GodEmperorDune Oh, actually, hm

I forgot/didn't realize Canada's oil reserves were that big

The Oscar Meyer Weinermobile needs new drivers

@Unionhawk Justin trudon’t imo

In fact are canada and russia the only non-opec nations in that top 8 or

quora.com/…

> intelligence is by far mostly a product of latitude and climate - adaptation on hostile mileu: regardless of the race or Cavalli-Sforza cluster, the average human IQ is lowest at the Equator - in all continents - and rises towards the poles

If you admit Dr. Watson’s views are correct, you should build a Terraformer and fix the climate to be globally the same

@Memor-X hue

For values of "he" meaning "the united states and brazil" sure

As a more assertive confirmation

Wait what

doesn't one box

lol, self-rekt

@TimStone He played chicken with Pelosi and lost.

Michael Cohen postpones testimony to Congress 'after Donald Trump threatens his family'

@TimStone lol rekt

he doesn't like doing the state of the union anyway

@GodEmperorDune If anything, he likes it more because of all the live attention on him.

Still having a hard time getting past the fact that Zuckerberg just has goats he kills with a stun gun to serve to random guests and the fact that in light of gestures broadly it's not even that absurd

@TimStone wait wtf is this

fresh goat on the zuckerberg estate

Yeah

(for those that missed it)

Like it's not werid to have animals for that purpose but like…it somehow seems extra weird he does and the nonchalance with which this all is described to have gone down

@TimStone the fact that he slaughters it, sends it to the butcher, but then doesn't cook it properly is real weird

@GodEmperorDune well you can guess the reason for doing it this time is to try and preach his wall

which now is pointless because the whole thing about the wall is going to be resolved before the shutdown ends

@TimStone laser

@GodEmperorDune You'd think figuring out how to prepare it based on some cuts you just bought would be step 1 and yet

This…is a sandwich shop 🤔

@TimStone i also don't get how it comes cold out of 30 minutes in the oven

was the oven not on?

@TimStone i call dibs on naval hardware like aircraft carriers. and also 2 tanks and 2 jets

one aircraft carrier, the tanks and planes for myself, the rest to Japan on the contractual obligation to install Kantai Collection / Azur Lane ship girl AIs into them

@Memor-X u wut m8

@Ash yeah that is also a very good point

@Ash fired directly into my mouth, hmmmmm

@murgatroid99 That's a really blatant case of witness tampering if true

this is amazing

(it's a hot reverse-take on people who say they support both women and trans women, it's not really politics, but I thought that it might end up being a bit too much of a hot take for bridge)

@Ave wait, aren't these 2 the same?

> Cisgender is a term for people whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth.

@Memor-X cis women are women, just like trans women are

that post mocks people who call cis women "real women" or put a distinction between "women" and "trans women"

@Ave oh, i thought it was trying to put a distinction between real women and cis women

I mean just "real women" is something to be laughed a because like

according to who

@Ave yeh maybe thinking of "real women" as a third sub category got me confused, like a group of women that unlike cis or trans women, never though about gender identity and that somehow makes them better than who do go through all of that and decide that they are happy as they are

@Ave that's delightfully spicy

IKR

Also wow that's a lot of Completely Missing The Point in the replies

bahahha

@Ave nice

@Ave Is it sexist to say I like that style of haircut?

@Nzall I don't tihnk so

@Nzall no lol

@BunsGlazing yeah, I thought so. I like it when women have deliberate facial appearance changes like that: this haircut, prominent makeup similar to Princess Mononoke or D.va, some piercings,...

You can like whatever you want man

lol

"'AI' to hit hardest in U.S. heartland and among less-skilled: study" - reuters.com/article/us-usa-economy-labor/…

gee it's almost like

people who have never actually had to work... don't understand what it's like?

more research is required

It's pretty impressive that despite us somehow having kind of moved on from all his corruption, arguably the most excessive dollar amount-wise, he was willing to charge back into the foreground with this dumbest of takes

@Unionhawk yeah, and the American school and work system doesn't really promote saving money. you need to pay thousands to get a degree, which means most people end up deep in debt by the time they get it, most of them never get any financial education and thus don't learn even the basics like marginal tax rates or compound interest or even how to save money, and then losing your job means basically losing all your income without a fallback

AFAIK there's no unemployment benefits system like in some EU countries etc

and health care is stupendously expensive and kept that way a gaggle of politicians that cares more about a lean government than actually making sure their citizens can actually live

78% of american workers live paycheck to paycheck so saving money is honestly just not a thing that is possible

for a lot of people

Yeah, and that's because they never got the chance to do so because they got no financial education and their parents never pressed to them the importance of saving up. That plus the prohibitive cost of education means most are knee-deep in debt before they even get a job, and they need to pay that

Is allowance for children something that happens in the states?

Check this out: you can't save up if you don't have extra money.

That is not a thing that is possible

this isn't 78% of americans are too stupid to save

yeah, I know, and part of "you don't have extra money" is because "you need to spend it all on these student debts you need for your college education"

AFAIK at least

roughly 50% of my expenses is student debt yes

50% of my income rather

When I was young, my parents gave me a small allowance that started at 10 EUR a month and gradually climbed to 25 at 12, 50 at 16 and 100 at 18, until I got my own income

I also asked if people that wanted to give birthday and holiday gifts could do so in money instead of stuff like toys or books or games

so I had a bit of a buffer saved up by the time I graduated

but a lot of American kids never learn that. They spend their allowance immediately and aren't taught how to save money

"living paycheck to paycheck" and "learning about money" are two different things.

so they don't have any money by the time they graduate and thus can't deal with their debts

and so they have expensive student loans and have to live paycheck to paycheck

Stop blaming individuals for high tuition costs.

Right the fuck now.

You can't learn about finances your way to magic prosperity

that's not how the world works

I think you misunderstand, or maybe I'm misunderstanding something

I'm probably the wrong person to make this argument since I never lived in hardship and always had enough money to get what I need

Yes, I know that schools have high tuition costs, and people usually can't afford to pay them without student loans

and as such they need to spend large amounts of their income on these loans, as well as on rent and groceries

I don't deny that

What I'm saying is that, assuming that allowance is a thing in America, saving up a small-ish part of that allowance every time you get it (say, 30-50%) instead of spending it all immediately, could provide with a small buffer that, in time, you can use during tough moments

Though I might be missing something crucial when I say that statement

@Unionhawk Did that somewhat clear up what I meant? I didn't have the intention to blame individuals for high tuition costs

I don't think we're misunderstanding you; I just don't think you really understand the actual financial condition of so many Americans.

Yeah, that's likely

ultimately "saving up your allowance" levels of money is probably on average, maybe a few hundred dollars

Let me make an analogy: there is an annoying trend in "financial advice" columns and stuff to suggest trivial things: "stop buying a $5 starbucks every day!, you'll save $x per year!"

I am sure there are people for whom that is good advice

(mostly middle-class people, to be honest)

But there is a huge group of people for whom that is not only bad advice, but it is absolutely clueless and downright stupid advice

Because those people aren't spending $5 a day on Starbucks, they are trying to decide whether to put their $5 into their gas tank, or put it toward food

Or they're trying to decide whether to pay their electric bill, or their phone bill

there are larger structural problems that just get handwaved away when the advice just goes to "if I were living paycheck to paycheck I would simply choose to never have fun, saving a few hundred dollars per year"

Regarding your thread above; yes, I believe that there is a need for better financial education. But that misses other serious problems with finances in the US

Student loans are one; as is predatory credit companies

as is the payday loan industry

@Unionhawk Suppose you start saving at 8 years old until you're 18. That's 10 years. every dollar you save per week in the end is about 500 USD. I don't know how big allowances are, but if you get 10 dollars per week, saving half of that is 2500 USD by the time you leave high school

@BradC god, thank you for reminding me of that post that was like "I suppose it is possible to empathize with federal workers and oppose payday lending but it is very hard"

like no my man it's very easy actually

> SoFi Student Loan Refinance: -127,941.90

then assuming you do what I believe is common in the US (minimum wage part time job in retail or fast food), you can save a little bit more from that

@Unionhawk I'm not actually saying to use that 2500 to pay for your student loans, but rather to save them for a rainy day

for example a shutdown

So yes, "living beneath your means, no matter your income" and "save a buffer for an amergency" are both excellent foundational financial principles, that more people (at all incomes and at all places in life) should follow.

But when you hit a financial emergency that drains your savings, then what? What happens when that second emergency hits before you can rebuild it?

@BradC The problem is that "living beneath your means" for some people would mean they'd literally starve to death.

or need to live on the street

I agree with you that some people just really suck at managing their money, and that Capitalism as a general rule tries to push people into building up debt, but to say that's why most people don't have savings just isn't correct at all.

@Unionhawk How much is your monthly payment though?

@Nzall $1,200

@Wipqozn Exactly. And without usable and reliable (non-punative, no year-long waits, etc) public assistance programs across the US, its a crap shoot, and you'd better hope you have generous relatives

And this is a 15 year refinance, from 10

@Unionhawk And how much other monthly costs like rent etc do you have?

@BradC So I literally just realized that on mobile I was mixing up you and @Nzall

And more importantly one of your earlier comments was directed at @Nzall, not @Unionhawk

@Nzall You live outside the US, correct?

@Wipqozn yeah, so I don't have crazy student loans

and I also still live with my parents for a crazy low monthly payment

@Nzall A large number of younger Americans are doing the same thing (for which they are roundly criticized as lazy by older generations)

Let me put it into numbers: by the end of my college career, I had saved up roughly 25-30K from my allowance and various monetary gifts for recurring festive events like birthdays, christmas, events,...

@Nzall Okay because if you live outside the US then I suspect you don't fully appreciate just how much "the odds" are stacked against the average American, especially those living near the poverty line.

@Nzall Holy fucking crap. Nice job

That was when I was 21

That's cool, by the end of my college career I had around $200

When I was 21, I was probably that much in the hole.

At least, if I remember it correctly

A lot of things those of us in other first world countries take for granted just don't exist in other countries, like free healthcare for example. We don't need to worry about what if I break a leg and get hit with an $8000 hospital bill.

that's about 9 years ago by now

And even with that stuff, a lot of people in first world countries struggle, so imagine how bad it is for someone in a similiar situation like the US. So telling them to "just save your money" is just really insulting, and displays a complete lack of understanding of the situation.

Thing is, I have a number of aunts that didn't have any kids themselves and they tended to be very generous with those festive events

like 2 on each side of the family

@Nzall and also that's an Exceptional amount of money to have saved up just from gifts. That's just not something most people would have any chance of being able to do.

Aspiring Montreal comedian banned from performing at university bar because of hairstyle

Boo hiss

@Nzall That also presumes a pretty generous allowance (and gifts). I give my (3) kids $10 twice a month. Its what we can afford; but it would hardly add up to $30k

and they still are even. For some unfathomable reason, even though I'm 28 and have a full-time paying job, they STILL give me about 100-150 EUR a year

even if they saved every penny (which they shouldn't have to)

so yeah, I'm probably a really exceptional case

@Nzall So you see how "why don't people just do what I did?" isn't always possible, and can sometimes come across as... out of touch

@BradC if your kids save up 5 dollars every time, that's 10 dollars a month. that's 120 a year. Assuming a period of 10 years, that's about 1200

@Nzall I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?

@Wipqozn Honestly, I'm not sure myself either

I think I'm just a bit out of touch with the whole financial sanity thing. I never really had anything major I wanted to purchase like a car

so in the end everything I got from allowance to gifts just went to my savings account

@Nzall some people are not in a position to give their kids $5 every 2 weeks

@BunsGlazing So this made me curious, so I did some quick readign, and Dreadlocks have a very long and varied history, being used by many cultures, dating back at least 3600 years to the Minoan civilization so.... I certainly don't agree with labeling this cultural appropriation at all.

Back to the link that started this discussion (Wilbur Ross doesn't "understand" why federal workers need food banks):

its not just about savings, its about Ross assuming that people can easily get loans to cover the gap

Which isn't always possible, due to existing credit, or past poor credit.

(Enter the predatory payday loan industry, which should be illegal)

And of course loans are completely free!

And it's super easy to go and get a loan while you're legally required to work without compensation

@Kevin exactly

I was pointing at the time aspect in addition to the things you've mentioned :p

If we knew that the shutdown would only last, say, one more week, and that you were guaranteed for full back pay (which not everyone is), then it might be easier

But we have NO idea when this shutdown might end