honestly i just feel bad for those two girls who got cut, those winners probably could have competed successfully on the boys team too

and it would have been much more fair for everyone imo

society is complicated now, you can't have your cake and eat it too

or rather, shouldn't

imo

They competed for the girls team because they're girls

@GnomeSlice Conversely, what if the trans competitors were disqualified because they are trans?

idk man. That's a tough situation

taking testosterone supplements can be considered doping in some sports/leagues can't it

if they're born as guys then theyre gonna have a lot more

like I said having cake and eating it too. It's obvious that choosing that lifestyle is going to come with challenges and that sucks but there are other people to think about too

> “I think a lot of people, myself in included, have a problem with is a biological male competing. When they put the state law in effect, my interpretation is it wasn’t made for high school sports,” Collins said. “I think it was meant for all people, whether transgender, bisexual, gay, are treated fairly. I totally agree with that, but with sports, it’s not a level playing field. You’d probably ask the state reps if the law should be changed for sports.”

It isn't just a lifestyle

@GnomeSlice And if they transition to become girls, they undergo hormone changes to reduce the amount of testosterone, don't they?

See it makes sense in most other areas, fine whatever. But he's right, sports are a different thing because physicality is where differences between men and women are morst apparent

@Unionhawk oh my god you know what I mean

@Mithrandir24601 Sure, but these two haven't had any treatments

Or operations even

@GnomeSlice you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. If you want trans women to compete with men, where would you have trans men compete?

So you have what amounts physically to two teen boys with raging hormones and testosterone competing against a bunch of girls

@GnomeSlice """choosing that lifestyle""" what the actual fuck dude

@StrongBad Against women I guess... but if they're taking testosterone it gets tricky again

like I said it's no easy answer

@ToxicFrog great here we fucking go again with halting discussion over dumb bullshit

who cares what I said you all know what I meant and I'm OBVIOUSLY not as well versed in this topic as the lot of you

so can we just move on please and continue with this nice and civil discussion about civil rights and physical competition

As it turns out this shit matters, and will be corrected

No it doesn't, not in a discussion like this

However, fine, let's assume you weren't vastly wrong

It is completely irrelevant

I mean, if you want an actual solution, segregate sports based on weight class or hormonal profile rather than either appearance or identification

I don't know what else I would say other than 'that lifestyle' so feel free to insert whatever phrase you like more and move on with your life please

@ToxicFrog See now we're getting somewhere

I'm totally in favor of banning all sports until we have a lengthy discussion on why we have binary gender divisions in sports.

Or, if you must continue with the current classification scheme, segregate based on gender identity and supply free informed-consent transition care to everyone

@GnomeSlice just the idea that it's a choice is vastly incorrect. That's all.

And what are the goals we intend to reach with such divisions.

I'm getting really like aggressive vibes from you guys and I don't know why

Well, that is also highly personal too and it's complicated

So that this situation stops arising and we can stop reading idioting handwringing about it

*idiotic

@GnomeSlice It's because even an unintended insult is still an insult

I don't think it's idiotic, some people are career athletes

I mean, I'm only half-joking about the "banning all sports" part but we really do need to look into why we have gender divisions in sports.

@SaintWacko Not at all sure what you're trying to say by that

And what were our goals in such segregation.

@GnomeSlice it's because you have a long established pattern of posting stuff that is either factually incorrect or deliberately inflammatory takes on factual shit and then refusing to learn when called on it

excuse me?

@GnomeSlice The lifestyle comment. People get that you didn't intend offense by it, but it's still a pretty dismissive thing to say

This makes people grumpy and short of patience and unwilling to extend the benefit of the doubt

Oh right, you're one of the people I don't talk to about stuff like this

@GnomeSlice You're repeatedly using problematic phrasing about a group of people you don't understand and then claiming it's unimportant "dumb bullshit"... So maybe it's a good time to stop discussing it until you learn a bit more about it and how to refer to trans people respecfully... so that the conversation won't be halted to argue about minutiae that are important to many people.

Says the person who keeps posting Breitbart and dangerous.com articles in the channel and then acting confused when people point out, for the hundredth time, why that's problematic.

Everyone knew what I meant by 'lifestyle' fuck idk is there a special word you're supposed to use because if there is I don't know it. This is EXACTLY what I was mad about earlier, we were having a nice discussion for once and now it's devolved again into everyone attacking me for 'bububu he said WRONGWORD'

jesus

It isn't just words, it's people, and it matters

which people

which ones here right now

and how does it matter

@GnomeSlice Okay, but here's the thing. What would it have cost you to say "I'm sorry, I don't know what word to use there. What should I use?"

Trans people you fool

This room was placed in timeout for 5 minutes; if I can't leave a room for 5 minutes without it exploding, it needs to not

stop, kay?

go take a breather the lot of you, return to your keyboards preferably not until you've had some decent sleep

Can I come out of my room yet?

i might not like Trump but i'd be fine with this, but first lets not jump the gun until something happens

Honestly no Commander in chief should be eligible for a peace prize

You don't get to command an army and get a peace prize

@Unionhawk I don't know, I feel like you should get a peace prize for not using said army

No president in a long time fits that criteria, so I mean

@SaintWacko I feel like that's a really low bar to clear.

@Unionhawk well if what Trump did actually did lead to the denuclearization of North Korea that would be a step to peace, but Pompeo is currently suggesting it be done by 2020 so i'd say wait until then before considering any peace prizes

Okay, little bit of clarification for some people who are new here. Room description says "stars reserved for news items" so that's why I'm clearing stars on that post.

@Yuuki Oh, right. Sorry, I forget about that sometimes

if Trump got it now and we find out that the North Korean State Media is actually accurate and Trump just gave up a bunch of concessions for nothing, then that peace prize would as real as his Time's Magazine cover

I find it interesting that for all the other Nobel prizes, they're awarded many years after the event, yet the peace prize is awarded very soon after

It's almost as if the Peace Prize is awarded for a field that far more nebulous than the others so perhaps not as much consideration is put into evaluating the nominees.

shrug this is monumental, I agree. I just don't think on one hand doing this, and on the other enabling the saudis to do famine is worthy personally

Hot take: the Peace Prize should only be awarded posthumously

But then again they did give Kissinger a peace prize so it's not exactly an untainted club

So maybe it doesn't matter by comparison

@Mithrandir24601 didn't know that. really shouldn't be the case since a prize for bring peace should be for bring lasting peace

@Yuuki It would be nice if they decided to allow for all the Nobels to be awarded posthumously

(there are still some very good people with the prize don't get me wrong)

@Memor-X I doubt it's a rule about the peace prize or anything, but there's more than a few examples where that's the case

(whereas I don't know of a single case where the other ones where awarded shortly after - most of them take several decades before being awarded for some discovery or another, although maybe that's just my bias)

@Memor-X How long does peace have to last to be considered "lasting"?

@murgatroid99 good point, i don't know

It feels kind of like the halting problem to me: you don't know if it will be peaceful forever, just that it has been peaceful so far

Back from a walk

disappointed to see that TL had to be called in

oh well, it's done

@puzzlepiece87 no that's for replying

@Unionhawk Boxing does it, although I have no idea how

@murgatroid99 This is a similar problem to the other prizes though - it won't be perfectly correct/being a permanent peace, so you go with the big groundbreaking moments that open up new fields of research (i.e. make the World much more peaceful for a time, I suppose?)

@quartata I think boxing just weighs people at specific times.

Same with MMA.

Hence "weight" I suppose...

Yeah.

@Memor-X i'm not going to recycle the physiology prize joke

That's also slightly gameable, e.g. you get boxers timing their fluid intake to weigh as little as possible during the morning weighing

@Yuuki Most martial art sports do that, to my knowledge

Considering the original context was track I suspect that would not be the metric

@ToxicFrog But then if (assuming) everyone does it, everyone should change by a similar proportion, so I could believe that's reasonably fair

I'm sure someone who knows more about it could figure something out, is the point

Thrust to weight ratio?~

I mean, that's not unreasonable.... how much one can press down like a scale with your foot is probably related right

(assuming I understand what you mean)

@quartata it was mostly a joke

yeah, I suppose the tilde should have made that more obvious...

Oh wow, I didn't know this room was here. Hey guys, I know a few of you. I need a place to talk about this kind of stuff! Cool.

o/

@Jolenealaska good evening and welcome to this den of iniquity.

tyty

@ToxicFrog that's a nice way of putting it

what about height? Taller people generally have longer strides, which is an advantage when running

@murgatroid99 That's probably the best idea

More critically that's the one factor that you can't change, really

you really can't get taller to compete against someone who also is taller, so that's where it should separate

I think before we start trying to figure out how to "properly" stratify sports, we need to resolve why we stratify sports.

Ostensibly the male/female divide is because of physical differences, but wouldn't be easier to just identify those physical differences directly and leave gender (especially such a binary form of discrimination)? That's all

Because I don't think it's wholly because some people are naturally better at things than other people.

@Unionhawk Yeah not working out so great with Aung San Suu Kyi either

@Unionhawk this makes me so mad lmao

Speaking of Kissinger I watched The Post recently

@quartata messed up that he's still alive and bourdain isn't

it was all history I already knew, but I really liked it anyways

@Unionhawk :(

bourdain, who absolutely hated kissinger for what he did to cambodia

@Memor-X Well and it seems a bit weird to reward him purely for diffusing a situation of his own making. If he can actually get something out of it then by all means, but based on that snippy Pompeo conversation earlier I'm not sure they have a plan to even try that yet

@Yuuki I think you're right about this. I would bet that there are (historically) other social/cultural concerns responsible for that split

e.g. maybe people were generally concerned with people of different genders doing physical activities in close physical proximity

Or maybe it comes from the fact that in some cases the men's only sport club started first, and the women's version was created later and in the context of the men's sport club already existing