The Awkward Silence

Clay07g

00:19

Specific details are often not needed. They are useful so others can better understand the parameters of the question, when the asker cannot state them explicitly. For example, when a family member says something hurtful, it's easy to see that the problem is that the asker cannot escape the hurtful speech, and that it actually does hurt. A coworker might imply that the speech doesn't personally hurt, but cannot be escaped.

A stranger implies the consequences, hurtfulness, and situation itself can be entirely avoided.

Cascabel

Coworkers being unable to hurt each other is news to me.

Clay07g

Just the implication. Obviously anyone can hurt anyone. But for many, coworkers are strangers.

What I'm saying here, is that the implications provided by personal details are needed. If not through those details, then they are needed to be outright stated.

It would have taken under 20 words for me to retract my VTC

Cascabel

Then maybe suggest those 20 words?

Clay07g

I did

Cascabel

you've said an awful lot of things

Clay07g

00:24

It's the second highest upvoted comment on the question

I asked what, 12 followup questions?

Probably could have answered 2-4 for me to retract my vote

Cascabel

Which again makes it sound like this is about a lot more than 20 words, especially given that there are sweeping "needs more detail" things, not just specifics.

Could you give an example of 20 words that'd fix it for you?

Clay07g

Hmm.
1. A goal

For example "Make them understand I'm hurt", "Change their mind", "Show them my point of view".

That's at most 5 words

user15026

The bolded part says that stuff though

Clay07g

2. A descriptor of the other party
Examples: "Close Friend", "Person whom I need to be around", "Stranger"

"Pointing out they are wrong" is not very detailed

3. A setting

Examples: "The party is harassing another person", "They are harassing me", "They are invalidating my friend's feelings", "They are invalidating my feelings", "They started the conversation", "I started the conversation", "It was a drive-by comment, not a conversation".

Cascabel

Perhaps pick the easiest assumptions (e.g. not close friend, not stranger; want them to hear and understand what I'm saying without taking as insult) and see what kind of addition you end up with, and also see if you've made it so specific that it's going to be hard for the OP to make use of answers in other situations.

Clay07g

00:32

Some of those example details would be far too different to have transferable answers, but again it depends. It doesn't hurt to include those details

A good answer is able to generalize itself, if the details of the question are too specific

That doesn't work the other way around, as then the answer must make assumptions.

Which they did

Some weren't pretty

Cascabel

They didn't have to assume that the OP was maybe wrong about everything.

(for example)

Clay07g

No they didn't, and to be fair, that was uncalled for.

Cascabel

Also, if it really only took 20 words and 2-4 questions, that was very unclear from your comments on the question. You led with an overall judgment about the design of the question, and you asked a lot of things in the context of saying it was unclear, which really suggests you want all of them.

And if answers made assumptions that were uncalled for, that's not really proof that the question is unclear.

Clay07g

I stated the reason I voted to close. I don't think doing that is possible without a judgement of some sort

apaul voted to close a question 4 days earlier with that exact reason, I think.

Cascabel

"Seems to be a question designed to either validate the premises and/or provoke an argument."

that's the judgment I'm referring to, not "needs more detail" etc

Clay07g

00:38

That was my conclusion, but obviously my reasoning was lack of detail. Hypothetical situations are often used to further points, not solve problems, from what I've seen.

Cascabel

If I say to you "your entire argument here seems to be designed to invalidate the entire question, and also it needs more explanation" I don't think we're destined for a nice simple discussion that will be resolved when you add a couple sentences of clarification.

Clay07g

Well, you say that....

But

Cascabel

I really do believe you just want some clarification, not to undermine the whole thing. I'm just trying to encourage being a little more constructive about pushing for the clarification.

Clay07g

7

Q: How to politely inform a group of feminists some of their arguments are misandristic and are affecting my community?

I don't want to make them feel I'm dismissing their whole political stand, I've taken feminist postures many times myself because I take the side of justice. But now I feel used because it seems some of them only listen to me when I'm actively helping their cause under their terms, but if I off...

That question was closed

Apaul's reasoning for voting:

"Basically it all looked an awful lot like you posted with the agenda of having a debate about your anti-feminist or anti-misandrist views, rather than posting an honest question about a situation that you were actually facing."

Then it got edited, and now it has plenty of upvotes, and an answer

Cascabel

And I assume you voted to close because of lack of detail?

Clay07g

00:42

Yup

I still have it downvoted

I will look at it to see if I should change that

Cascabel

ok gotta go

Extroverted Main Man

02:26

0

Q: How to ask a parent to help with something they disagree with fundamentally?

For perspective, I'm a young man and I don't live with my parents nor am I dependent on them in any way. Recently, I've started to grow an interest in learning to ride a motorcycle. My dad has been riding since he was very young. Despite my dad's lifelong hobby, my mother has never been approvi...

conversations united-states conflict-aversion difficult-people parents

0

Q: Parents' less than desireable response to my good news, how to let them know i did not like that?

Some background: I've been trying to get into a particular overseas university for about 2 years now (applied twice before, both rejected), but i found out that i got accepted this time around after a lot of hard work and effort. I was beaming and went to tell my parents. To which they (after a...

parents

Introverted Meta Man.

03:09

0

Q: Is outlining an Intra-personal problem, and asking for Interpersonal solutions off-topic?

Based off this meta Intra-personal questions are off topic. So, when looking at this question I voted to close as off-topic because it seemed to be dealing with an intra-personal issue. The question was tagged Anxiety and Self-esteem, and outlined OP having difficulty communicating with people w...

discussion scope

Extroverted Main Man

03:35

0

Q: How to politely tell my professor that I don't understand anything of her class and that I want a lot of office hours?

It's been a while (about 2 weeks) since I don't understand anything that she 'teach' us and I am afraid to tell her about my situation because she may get upset with me (which is obviously a not good idea). I feel the urge to tell her because I have the hope of her to tell me an advice or help (I...

conversations work-environment awkward-situations politeness school

apaul

@Clay07g Your assumption that it's hypothetical is a strong indicator of the problem asked about.

Clay07g

@apaul A hypothetical question and a question with no details are very similar. Just as an overly-detailed hypothetical situation will seem like a real one, a real situation with the details stripped out will seem like a hypothetical one.

Keep in mind that once a question is closed, downvoted, and removed, I cannot dig at it. It would be unfair to say that I am not choosing to dig at other questions because of their topic, since it's not actually possible

It is possible, however, to dig at questions that stay up despite the objections. Those happen from time to time, but not nearly as often as them being instantly shut down, which you're glossing over.

My motivations only come into question when our opinions differ. That says more about you than I.

When we agree (which is more often than you think), it's just another normal day.

apaul

03:59

So..

It's a coincidence that this was the only other time you threw a fit: interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2776/…

Clay07g

You're trying to correlate the topic with my disapproval. Would you consider there are other correlations?

apaul

The difference between you and I, is that I'm aware of my biases, and some of them... I'm not really ashamed of.

Clay07g

Oh I have biases. Are you accusing me of projecting them onto my participation in the community moderation?

It seems like you are suggesting that the only valid explanation for my disapproval of 2 questions of the same topic is that I'm unknowingly projecting a strong internal bias towards those that would stand the benefit from those questions remaining. Is that accurate?

apaul

04:24

Nah, I'm saying that I've had this argument. Every marginalized person who's dared to talk about what it's like to be marginalized has had this argument. At great length, over and over. It's not new.

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: What kind of birthday gift is appropriate for a recent friend?

A friend of mine has a birthday coming up and I want to give them a gift. Given my history of poor gift giving, I am trying to put more thought into this. However, we've only recently started talking (stretching back maybe three or four weeks), and am unsure of what is appropriate. Furthermore, I...

united-states etiquette gifts high-school

apaul

@Clay07g Even if it's completely unintentional, you're throwing the same responses. You're doing much the same things. Just be aware of it.

Sorry ran out of spoons.

Clay07g

04:54

If it makes you feel any better, my attitude towards this topic is the same as any other. It may seem pedantic to you, and maybe it is, but I assure you I use it indiscriminately, and that it seems from my interpretation of what stack exhange is.

Clay07g

05:13

@apaul In fact, if I didn't raise problems with your questions, I'd b e inconsistent. Either way I lose. My motives have never been in question when I try to close an unpopular opinionated question. Guess that's just another coincidence.

But I'll reserve my judgements as I'm not going to stoop to making jumping conclusions based on weak correlations.

cactus_pardner

05:46

@doppelgreener Re: using specific situations as fodder for questions, such as the one @doppelgreener mentions from Twitter about the black woman in Minnesota, or the black Yale student having the police called on her for napping in a common room of her graduate dorm. They appear racially charged, but unless the aggressor used the n-word, SOMEONE will say, "It's not about race!" :(

user15026

@cactus_pardner it scares me how many stories like in the last couple days could add to your list

cactus_pardner

I've been thinking about this a lot... Can someone just present a hypothetical version of these, requesting that the premise that racism happened be treated as fundamentally true, no frame shifts allowed? Would that solve some of this problem?

@Ash Yep... sad but true

gparyani

@apaul What do you think of my newest question? interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/14282/…

cactus_pardner

Also, I've been lurking in here and appreciate everyone's efforts at productive discussion, even when it takes a lot of spoons. I have to get to bed, but just wanted to honor that. :)

Anonymous

07:48

And this awkward silence here is eating people up like silent blackholes.

Tinkeringbell

@IceInkberry Well, judging from the transcript, it was a busy night.

Sid

@Tinkeringbell wait, you became a parrot? :o

Tinkeringbell

@Sid Yep. I got tired of being a giraffe ;)

Anonymous

People are from alllllll around the world. So, night doesn't exist :P

Tinkeringbell

Hahaha true. Well, lets phrase it differently then: People have been busy when I was asleep :)

Sid

07:54

@IceInkberry even Antarctica, I see. :P

Anonymous

He he he

Sid

And then there are people who are from fictional lands too.

gparyani

@Tinkeringbell Do you have any opinion on my actual question?

Tinkeringbell

@gparyani No, sorry.

gparyani

Anyway, what was your reaction when you saw that I'd met Catija?

Sid

08:01

@gparyani To be honest, that's a tough question to answer. Do your parents visit you often?

gparyani

@Sid No, I usually fly home.

But they might visit on certain occasions, e.g. my birthday.

Tinkeringbell

@gparyani That that was something I didn't need to know?

I think I already said that yesterday...

Sid

Oops, my idea would have been to not tell them at all but if they find out on their own, you would be in a world of trouble..

gparyani

Is it weird that I, as a male, feel personally offended by remarks against women?

(I'm natural-born male, not trans, in case you're wondering.)

Sid

@gparyani No. At least, not to me.

gparyani

08:08

I always considered it weird that I have no desire to date or be in a romantic relationship with anyone, until I heard of the terms asexual and aromantic.

Sid

@gparyani if you stick to your decision and try to convey that to them, maybe they will accept it? You have to keep convincing them for a long time, though.

IPS Comment Bot

09:07

If the person behind you agrees with the guy cuting them, won't you be already half-committed into letting him pass too, because you tried to pass the burden ofdecision on someone else ? — Evargalo 52 mins ago

#14307 Evargalo (103 rep) | A: How can I tactfully refuse to let someone cut in line? (score: 2) | posted 13 hours ago by Thorsten S. (1412 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["chatty"]

@rbsdca I believe this was downvoted because it doesn't answer the question. OP is already perfectly aware that they want an espresso but aren't getting one. The question is how to make it clear what they want, and this answer doesn't address that at all. — F1Krazy 1 hour ago

#14263 F1Krazy (105 rep) | A: How do I ask for an espresso if there's a good chance they don't know how to make it? (score: -1) | posted 35 hours ago by Nick (1 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["chatty"]

jpmc26

@cactus_pardner Maybe it was racially motivated. But maybe we should also wait until more details come out to make that judgement. It's not like these sorts of claims haven't been wrong before. Isn't it unkind to assume the worst?

Jesse

10:24

to indicate ownership of @sphennings is it sphenning's, sphennings' or sphennings's?

A J

I guess it was Sphennings'

Jesse

i think its the last one

not positive though..

Tinkeringbell

if it ends in an 's', I believe it was the second one ;)

Jesse

ahahah guess what

I looked it up anndd.... its both/either! data.grammarbook.com/blog/apostrophes/…

any except the first

A J

I had a discussion about this at length with one of the regulars who is not regular anymore in The Screening Room.

Jesse

10:30

@AJ and you guys concluded it was the middle only? or either middle or last?

A J

Middle.

Jesse

this site is indicating that it is actually just up to the writers discretion

A J

I just can't find that discussion

Jesse

well you might be right. Just scrolling down to the discussion of that post it seems that the best way is as you said

ill quote: "I’m sorry, but Ms. Jones owns a house, hence it is Ms. Jones’ house, etc.

“Joneses” as such states that more than one member of the Jones family is being referred to. Adding (incorrectly) an apostrophe paramount to stating “The hot sun is hot.”

This “new” English or “incorrect English based on general, incorrect usage” is terrible. Or should we all say “He did good” just because so many English speakers use this phrase incorrectly?"

IPS Comment Bot

+1 for recognizing the psychological reason in shoes-worn-indoors countries, the tendency to keep ones shoes presentable but not ones feet/socks :) — rackandboneman 1 min ago

#14197 rackandboneman (317 rep) | A: How to enforce a "No Shoes" policy in my apartment? (score: 89) | posted 2 days ago by Kate Gregory (18594 rep) | edited 43 hours ago by Kate Gregory (18594 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["+1"]

sphennings

10:51

@Jesse Languages are always in flux. There is no canonical source defining what is and isn't proper English. Fun fact: "ain't" used to be considered a proper contraction appropriate to be used in formal situations by the upper class, until the early prescrptionist movements of the late 1800s.

Mithrandir

@Jesse Does that mean something that owns @sphennings or that @sphennings owns something?

If sphennings's answer gets a vote, they get rep. If all of the sphenningses out there vote on all the other sphenningses' answers, that's confusing.

At least, in what is currently considered to be correct English, I believe.

doppelgreener

Style guides tend to be divided on whether we should say Thomas's car or Thomas' car.

From what I understand the former is the more popular choice.

sphennings

11:07

@Mithrandir You're mostly correct. You don't add an 's' when making Sphennings possessive. If Sphennings answers a question then Sphennings' question gets downvotes.

At least that's what I was taught almost two decades ago.

Mithrandir

Either is correct, I think.

Extroverted Main Man

11:25

0

Q: How to deal with son's odd obsessions which are causing concern?

We have a 16-year-old son. For the past few months, he's had some interests which are... odd and potentially dangerous. The first one is, he's obsessed with filming people getting changed in highschool, and has also shown an obsession with wearing sports bras to gym class claiming "heh, heh, it'...

relationships social-media parenting

Jesse

11:55

vtc please I made some very heavy edits so I didn't want to also be the one to tell them that their question was off topic. They ask both what words should I use? and what should I do? so i thought someone else would pick it up but it has gained a number of answers and no comment...? vtc please <3

or at least just comment with some suggestions

Tinkeringbell

@Jesse I would honestly just take out the 'what should I do' and 'what words to use'... and then ask for more detail on why they think asking doesn't work... I'll take a closer look :)

Jesse

ahh good

the answers do mostly seem fine so some rewording and gentle prompts might actually be the most helpful

Tinkeringbell

12:15

@Jesse I think it should be fine now? They actually give some detail on the teacher, like 'she's upset easily'...

Jesse

Don't ask me, I am not the one with the lovely blue name ;) but yes the specific mention of those red flag phrases was my main issue

Mithrandir

@Jesse bein' blue doesn't mean ya know everything

ya don't even get a training course

Tinkeringbell

@Jesse I'd love it if you'd just pretend I'm not blue in chat, unless I tell you to stop behaving badly :P

Jesse

@Mithrandir Such insightful words of wisdom right there. Must be because you are blue! :P

Tinkeringbell

I'm quite fond of still throwing stuff in here to see what everyone else thinks of them ;)

skull

12:19

When did this start?

Controversial Post — You may use comments ONLY to suggest improvements. You may use answers ONLY to provide a solution to the specific question asked above. Moderators will remove debates, arguments or opinions without notice.

Jesse

'this'?

A J

@skull six months ago

skull

here

Jesse

nvm, I don't know what im talking about :D thought you were referring to something else

Tinkeringbell

@skull meta.stackexchange.com/a/302609/369802 Main meta post ;)

skull

12:22

@AJ thanks

@Tinkeringbell thanks

@Jesse my fault, I should have worded that differently :-)

Tinkeringbell

13:36

OMG! I just got this movie clip from my brother (the zookeeper one). It's slightly NSFW, there's a lot of cursing... but man, those people were lucky!

It's shot in a Dutch zoo, a reserve that you can drive through by car. A French family actually decided to get out of their car, right next to the cheetahs!

Rainbacon

@Tinkeringbell I saw "OMG! I just got this movie clip" with the link and my mind immediately thought it was spam before I finished reading

Tinkeringbell

@Rainbacon Well... I am spamming a link :P But I'm kinda like... mindblown? right now :P

I do have an IPS question though... how to warn those people? :P

Rainbacon

@Tinkeringbell Frame challenge: Let them get eaten. One should never interfere with natural selection.

Tinkeringbell

@Rainbacon Oooh.. my nasty side likes that :P

But it's difficult to warn people in such situations: There's a rule that you can't use your horn... and you're also supposed to keep your windows closed, from what I remember

(I'm asking because the people that made it are getting comments telling them they were wrong for not sending a warning... but I seriously don't see what they could have done...)

Other than using non-verbal, and that wouldn't show on camera

Tinkeringbell

14:10

Hah! I just found a news article with an interview... They did use non-verbal communication to try and warn those people <3

cactus_pardner

16:10

@jpmc26 @jpmc26 That link warms my heart a bit, because it was actually all a big misunderstanding! But sadly, real interpersonal situations rarely have a clarifying video replay.

To answer your question, I'm not sure if it's kindest to assume there were no racial motivations; if someone has experienced lots of racial tensions in their life, dismissing their experience may be the unkind path.

user15026

(sorry, removing that because on second thought I don't want to have that discussion anymore)

cactus_pardner

@jpmc26 (Also, I have not returned to the Academia chat b/c I, too, have not had time to go through the long review paper in detail. ;) But I am absolutely convinced that the auditing experiments that I have studied, most of which are reviewed there, offer some of the evidence you're looking for.)

@Ash Gotcha. :) I'd better be going so I get on to what I need to do for the day. Have a great day!

user15026

You too :)

Extroverted Main Man

17:46

0

Q: How to characterize this relationship?

I am a man in my 20's, religious, and voluntarily celibate. Some years ago, I wound up in my first (and to date only) serious romantic relationship with a girl who really wanted to have sex. I explained to her my moral stance, and she seemed to be OK with that initially. However, a few dates l...

relationships awkward-situations sex abuse

Rainbacon

@ExtrovertedMainMan That question should be closed

Richard U

@Rainbacon ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Richard U

18:31

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND deleted

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: Maintain status with a hypocritical coworker (both over-sensitive and rude)

The Problem I have a coworker I will call Bill who is hypocritical in that he is both over-sensitive and rude, reacting to actions of other people strongly, but doing the same, or worse, things himself and not seeming to be aware (or not caring) that it bothers others. Example 1 If he is talki...

work-environment conflicts

sphennings

19:11

@RichardU So it's less "how to communicate...?" and more "how do I politely and without conflict communicate....?"

Richard U

@sphennings yeah, I added the conflict-aversion tag

As you know, I have no problem with telling people off, this just wouldn't be prudent of productive.

sphennings

@RichardU What's wrong with using an I statement?

Richard U

????????????

Extroverted Main Man

1

Q: How to address a someone who is constantly offended on my behalf

Background: I was born with several disabilities, including Asperger's syndrome, hearing impairment, and other difficulties related to being born blue. (Neonatal hypoxia) I am nearly 50, am independent, and have come to terms with all of my difficulties. While I did have a bit of a rough life,...

conversations conflict-aversion difficult-people disability

sphennings

Statements of the form "I feel X, when you do Y." Sometimes including an optional "I would like Z".

When done correctly they're a good way to start difficult conversations without placing people on the defensive.

Richard U

19:18

@sphennings yeah... doesn't work that well when someone thinks they know how you feel better than you do.

sphennings

That sounds frustrating.

Richard U

@sphennings yeah, it's actually a berserk button for me.

It's basically telling someone that they're too stupid to understand that they are being insulted

sphennings

People trying to stand up for you. Or people doing so in a way that disregards your feelings.

Richard U

@sphennings it's called "Condescending compassion" and it's frustrating

sphennings

@RichardU I'm not clicking on a TVTropes link, I have things to do in the next 24 hours. :p

Richard U

19:24

@sphennings I'm sure you can get the gist without clicking. Honestly, I had it rough growing up, but I've forgotten all the insults from people who were mean. I haven't forgotten a single omnipotent busybody attempting to "help" me against my will.

ugh, already the first answer suggests that I should be grateful for someone treating me like a child.

sphennings

@RichardU I think the intent of that answer is to separate the intent from the execution.

It's likely that your coworker is acting with good intentions but doesn't realize that their actions aren't helpful and come across as condescending.

Richard U

@sphennings what is the intent? To make me feel better, or to give the others a hard time and make herself feel superior to them by showing everyone else what a fine person she is.

sphennings

We don't want them to defend or justify their actions we want to change how they behavior in the future.

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How should I ask a roommate who's planning to move out before their lease is up to continue paying their portion of the utilities?

I have two roommates, both of whom are moving out this month, though our lease is up at the end of July. We split the rent/utilities three ways, and Roommate A, without being asked, told me he'd continue paying his share of rent/gas/electric/internet. I appreciated this and think it's fair, since...

money roommates

Richard U

She's certainly not doing the first.

Cascabel

19:31

Seems like a case where it's really useful to keep in mind both assuming good intent and that your feelings are valid - for their sake it's helpful to do it in a way that initially acknowledges their presumed good intent but still makes it clear that for your sake it needs to change.

sphennings

@RichardU I'm making some assumptions about your goal with interacting with this person. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Richard U

@Cascabel this is a blind spot for me, thus the questions.

@sphennings No, I just want the behavior to stop without ripping this person a new one.

that's the goal

After that, I can deal

sphennings

@RichardU The point of saying "I appreciate you sticking up for me." is to express that you are acting on the assumption that their intentions are good. This should reduce the chance that they will try to explain or defend their actions to you.

Richard U

@sphennings I'm going to have to find a way to convey that which would not be quite so much of a bald face lie.

sphennings

The goal is to make it easy for them to say "Thanks for bringing that up. I didn't realize that this was a problem. I'll behave differently in the future."

@RichardU Appreciate is an excellent weasel word.

It can mean "recognize the worth of", but it can also just mean "fully understand".

Richard U

19:37

@sphennings thanks. I'm good at phrasing things, but terrible at telling a direct lie. When someone my mother didn't like showed up at her funeral and introduced herself, the best I could manage was "Oh, yes, my mother spoke of you often"

Cascabel

On "what is the intent" it sort of doesn't matter - if it's good intent and they just suck at the implementation, then saying "good intent, bad results" is kinder and hopefully gets you to where you can say what works and they'll listen. If it's bad intent (seems unlikely), then there's no easy solution but you're at least going to discover it quickly that way.

sphennings

It's less of a mouthful than saying "I recognize that you are acting with good intentions but the effects of your actions are actually kind of hurtful"

@RichardU I like that.

Richard U

Yeah, I cannot tell a direct lie, but I can use double entendre

apaul

It's beginning to look a lot like f this...

So

I think I may go ahead and add a concrete example to my question... Would it be too much to just point to the responses to the question, as examples of the problem?

sphennings

19:54

@apaul Are you trying to stir things up or get an answer to your question?

Catija

@apaul Please don't. If the answers get deleted, your question becomes unclear to anyone who can't see them.

It also reads as... somewhat hostile to the other users here. I understand it upsets you but we really don't need the main site on IPS to be about IPS.

In fact, that's specifically off topic here.

apaul

Fun fun

Cascabel

did you mean main chat or am I dramatically failing to read?

Catija

@Cascabel I interpreted what apaul said as meaning he was going to edit the question and use the answers as examples.

apaul

@Catija Answers and comments

Cascabel

19:59

oh, I parse it now

Yeah, examples are best when cleanest, and rehashing tends to not be very clean.

sphennings

@apaul If you need an example try to construct the minimum viable example. Linking to an existing IPS discussion is the equivalent of pasting all your code on SO and asking why it doesn't work. It also makes it much easier to get sidetracked with issues that are unrelated to your question.

apaul

@sphennings The side tracking happens regardless...

Cascabel

The site hasn't even figured out how to show people that bad frame challenges etc on things like this are bad, let alone how to moderate them, so while to the people you don't have to convince they're clear examples, to others they're just another really obviously easy thing to tear apart.

sphennings

The smaller the example the less surface is for people to dispute necessary details.

Cascabel

...and the easier it is for mods to tell them to quit it.

apaul

20:07

Hmm... How about a compromise...

What about using both?

Cascabel

For example, do you really want to deal with people saying "well that was said in response to a question that for XYZ reasons was actually totally appropriate to frame challenge", and people quoting comments, and previous revisions of the question, and so on?

You're setting yourself up to have to debate every last thing you already did in the question so far, on top of the actual new addition.

What is your goal in using the answers as your example?

apaul

They're going to do that anyway, so why not point out that it's an example of the issue?

Catija

No.

sphennings

@apaul In general questions are improved more by removing everything that isn't necessary, far more than adding extra information.

Cascabel

@apaul It's a lot easier to manage if it's a simpler case than if it's all of that.

Proving that it's an example of the issue is not a thing to sort out on IPS main.

Like Catija said, in so many words, we shouldn't be using main to legislate a moderation/meta issue.

sphennings

20:10

@apaul Pointing to an example of where something happens on site is the exact opposite of a minimal example.

apaul

So, instead of a single general reference, I should post dozens if not hundreds of very specific questions about every instance of this thing happening?

sphennings

@apaul NO

You should at most pick 3 short examples.

Cascabel

If the goal is to address a moderation/meta issue, then this isn't the place; if it's to figure out how to talk to people about defensiveness, then you don't actually need to address the whole issue, just one small illustrative simple example.

sphennings

It's best if any example is reduced to the minimal form where it's still readable.

apaul

That seems to be where very narrow, heavily arbitrated, pedantic questions would lead.

Cascabel

20:12

I agree that there are substantial moderation/meta issues here, I'm just saying that a question on main is not a tool to address them.

apaul

@Cascabel Fair enough.

Still seems that narrowing the question to a single illustrative example leads to a long series of questions...

Cascabel

Well, this started with you saying you wanted to add an example.

sphennings

@apaul It's better to need to add information then to start with something that is too large.

apaul

It really wasn't too large.

Cascabel

The answers to the question are definitely too large.

sphennings

20:16

Especially if you're trying to ask a question about a contentious topic. Starting with a clearly defined scope makes it easier to keep things on track.

Cascabel

Even if you only bring in a short quote, you're implicitly bringing in every last thing that was ever said on that question.

sphennings

@apaul Any answer you reference is more than it's text. It's the votes, comments, edit history, and the intentions of the poster.

While it may be textually small it has a bunch of unnecessary baggage.

Remove as much baggage as possible. If you know that a particular word is going to make a question more contentions, consider using alternate words or phrases unless absolutely necessary.

apaul

I wasn't planning on linking to a specific post. More of a general nod to the fact that an awful lot of people did the thing, and even more people supported them for doing the thing.

Cascabel

If you say "acquaintance said X, I pointed out it was potentially hurtful, they said 'but I'm not whatever-ist', and now I'd like to let them know that defensiveness is part of the problem" then yeah people can ask you for details but there's a much lower limit to how far that can really go.

@apaul But then you're relying on everyone agreeing that it was awful, and given that a lot of people supported it, that obviously won't happen.

sphennings

It's much easier to keep an artificial example on relevant, if you need to add more information.

apaul

20:20

Still tracking back to putting the onus of repelling the crap responses entirely on the question.

Anywho. That's the apparent reallity. So, edit or scrap and start fresh?

Cascabel

@apaul No, not entirely. Moderation is still a thing. This is just about... not basing your question on something that's (1) prone to looking like it's trying to prove a point about the site/its users, rather than asking for IPS help and (2) likely to prompt an extremely large amount of questioning.

4

Like... compared to the original versions of the question, I think using answers as examples would be substantially worse in terms of attracting crap.

apaul

@Cascabel Probably right. Just pissed off and kinda want to hit back, and harder.

sphennings

@apaul We're not going to blame you for one poorly received question but it's becoming a pattern. If you're actually just asking and not trying to stir things up, making an attempt to make the questions better received does a lot to convince us that you are acting in good faith and not trying to pick a fight.

2

Cascabel

@apaul I totally get that. I'm unhappy about it too. But that's pretty much guaranteed to not lead to good things in terms of asking questions, even if you try to weasel around a bit.

If we want to do something about it we need to figure out how to establish enough policy, and maybe super-easy-to-follow guidelines for framing questions, so that the mods can actually take action when answers are off track.

And that's a big ol' meta thing, not a scoring points on main thing.

apaul

Meta has the same problems, often worse there than on main.

Cascabel

20:29

I know. I'm not saying that's easy. But there's at least a place where it's appropriate to try to address it, and it's meta, not main.

apaul

So a question should be asked, on meta, about what to do with answers that demonstrate the problem asked about on main...

Cascabel

If it's "what to do about answers" then yes, meta is the place.

apaul

You want to jump on that hand grenade?

Richard U

@apaul hitting back never gets anywhere. You can never convince people by force

apaul

@RichardU Depends on what you're trying to convince them of. ;)

Cascabel

20:34

@apaul I've been trying to figure out some good approaches, but I'm not ready to go for it yet, no.

Richard U

@apaul well, It's a good way to convince onlookers that you're as big of a jerk, but other than that, not much else. It's always better if you can confuse them with being nice. I've actually managed to win a few people over that way. Not too many, admittedly, but I will never rule anything out.

sphennings

@apaulTry to frame the question in a way that encourages productive discussion over rehashing arguments that already took place on main?

apaul

20:52

Added a concrete example.

Clay07g

21:12

I suppose it's inline with similar questions now, that seem to have been reopened. Seems the community has declared questions asking how to win an argument are acceptable.

2

Cascabel

21:27

We all agree that people are going to quibble no matter what. We're trying to work together to minimize the amount of that which is possible, and to maximize the ease of moderation to remove crap.

And realistically, you know your approach is not working, the question is about how to make it work better. We have to expect that answers are on some level going to address what went wrong.

ArtOfCode

→ 8 messages moved to Trashcan

user5389107

o_O

Tinkeringbell

@user5389107 bedtime in our timezone ;) are you going to watch Eurovision tomorrow?

user5389107

nah

I don't even have a tv

Tinkeringbell

@user5389107 I keep forgetting that.. I'm sure you mentioned it before? We're ( brothers + me) are still pushing to watch it on BBC.. the English commentary is so much better

But my parents can't understand English.. :(

ArtOfCode

21:37

@Tinkeringbell heh, I didn't even know it was on

user5389107

@Tinkeringbell I might have, I don't remember

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Well, now you know and you're obligated to watch XD

user5389107

This chatroom is the #1 source of personal information about me on the internet

ArtOfCode

I was thinking more of giving myself some unavoidable commitment at the time, actually. It would be such a shame to miss it, but honestly, life happens sometimes.

Tinkeringbell

@user5389107 Hahaha ;) Don't worry, I won't tell anyone!

user5389107

21:39

art even knows my name and where I work

And my address

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode oh sure. But it's also a great excuse to drink just enough alcohol, eat snacks and make lot's of sarcastic jokes

ArtOfCode

I can do that without also subjecting myself to three hours of tortuously bad singing :P

Tinkeringbell

@user5389107 Sounds like Art should send you chocolate to perk you up when you're feeling down ;)

user5389107

@Tinkeringbell He already sent me stickers :D

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Wut? We're in the finals and our singer isn't bad!

The dancers OTOH

@user5389107 that would do too, I guess ;)

You could stick them onto chocolate bars ;)

Catija

21:41

@apaul A lot of really great, smart people are trying to help you. These are people who (often) agree with you and who are trying to improve your experience here... but I think that these people are also getting to the point where they're worn out with it. This isn't your rant room. If you want to listen and learn and are willing to grow, be welcome. If you're looking for attention and arguments... It's not welcome here.

10

user5389107

btw @ArtOfCode let me know when you're doing another round of stickers

people in my workplace really like them

ArtOfCode

Did you at least get to keep most of 'em to yourself? :P

user5389107

I have one on my phone and one more stashed away

upside is our it department is now charcoal branded

Tinkeringbell

@user5389107 I wanna know too, I've started decorating my PC with stickers :)

ArtOfCode

heh

added bonus: Europe is dead easy to ship to

Tinkeringbell

21:45

@ArtOfCode I'll take two then ;) one for the PC and one for the work laptop.. oh and a third for on my SO water bottle ;)

And ... One for my bedroom door, just to irritate mom XD

ArtOfCode

@Tinkeringbell are you in the Charcoal SO team?

Tinkeringbell

@ArtOfCode Yep

ArtOfCode

Oh sweet, didn't think you were

in that case, stackoverflow.com/c/charcoal/a/198/1 :)

Tinkeringbell

I believe I am. Didn't really have the time to do anything with it... Life and moderation got in the way ;)

ArtOfCode

If that link doesn't 404, then you're in it

...I could just look it up, I guess :P

yup, you're in

Tinkeringbell

21:49

@ArtOfCode I bookmarked it : D

ArtOfCode

:)

Tinkeringbell

I'll make work of it... Tomorrow? If there's time between driving class, shopping for Mother's day and Eurovision ;)

I'm so excited! Only two days and I can finally show Mom why I've spent so many evenings locked up in my room this past half year

user15026

@Tinkeringbell I bet she'll love it

Tinkeringbell

22:09

@Ash I hope so :D

apaul

22:44

@Catija Sorry about getting carried away. Just pissed off about how things are going and having to acquiesce in these cases adds to the frustration.

Extroverted Main Man

23:32

0

Q: How to ask my old boss who started his own company for a job

Background: I currently work at a small I.T company that I have been at for 1.5 years. When I started there was about 30 staff. It was founded by 2 guys a couple years before then. The founders of the company retired early (in their mid 40's) about a year ago, and the company is still doing reall...

job manager

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