The Awkward Silence - 2018-03-10

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12:02 AM

@Ash Then again sometimes the rules are, well, just wrong, and they change if enough people think so.

user15026

@apaul See, that's a tricky thing though - sometimes, sure. But not always.

user15026

That is very contextual

True.

user15026

Going back to my religious roots - they don't have the best track record with LGBT issues (which is why we had a falling out). Loads of people outside the group were like YO THIS IS NOT COOL. But it wasn't until enough people inside the group were like "maybe we should look at this" that they started a process to look at it.

I guess it's a bit like anthropology vs applied anthropology. Do we just study and explain the way people do things, or do we use that process to try to make a positive impact.

user15026

12:06 AM

(And do I love their solution? Nope. Is it better than it was? Yep. Could I have done anything to change anyone's mind? Likely not, if someone outing me very publicly to my church I had attended for many years and was very involved in until I moved away was not enough, nothing else I did would've been.)

user15026

(I got outed after I moved, because people I knew were still there...it's a complicated mess of a thing)

user15026

So really, the thing there was not that a certain number of people had to think so - if that were so, society's noise would have effected change. But it took voices from inside to make the change.

user15026

I mean it's easier to reach individual people from a group, sure, but making mass change usually has to come from group members.

user15026

So we work on the individuals, and hope.

user15026

(WHICH SUCKS SO HARD SOMETIMES)

12:11 AM

There are of course different methods depending on goals and context.

12:24 AM

I left the church I grew up in too, for vaguely similar reasons. The shift is happening in that church because of internal and external pressures. There are big strides being made by people within the church to preach a more accepting and loving gospel, but the church also recognizes that it's awfully difficult to grow in a surrounding culture that doesn't endorse homophobic views. Sometimes it's a "both/and" rather than an "either/or"

user15026

Ah, see the church I grew up in was already really good at ignoring the world that was outside their purview, so it was not willing to listen to other outside views because a lot of their jam....is being very much proud of the fact they are "in the world but not of it"

@Ash Oh, I know lol

user15026

So different ways help different things, for sure :)

Family lore has it that my great grandfather was shunned for having an "English" family on the side.

Definitely crossed the line into being "of the world" you could say.

user15026

Yeah, I can see how that would be a bit too much "of the world".

1:13 AM

I'm wondering how this site would be like if we still had "not constructive", "not a real question", and "too localized" as close reasons

user15026

I don't think NC and NARQ work well on subjective sites

4:27 AM

@Catija Would it be acceptable to ask a question from the opposite end? For example, asking a(n on-topic) question on what a flight attendant should do if a passenger does this, while I was actually the passenger involved?

So, basically, I was on a flight (from Austin to San Diego) that was being diverted. I reacted nervously to the semi-secret signal they use to indicate emergencies, and I noticed the plane was turning off-course. The seat-belt sign was off, and there was no public indication (other than the course change) of any problem. I loaded up an online flight tracker using the plane's Wi-Fi and saw that the plane was diverting back to Austin.

I walked up to a crew member and asked why were diverting, showing them the flight tracker page on my phone. (The seat belt sign was off and there was no announcement from the flight deck of any problem.)

@gparyani That seems like more of a question for travel than IPS... you're asking what a professional should do as part of their job, not what the appropriate general IPS response is.

They knew I was an aviation enthusiast, since upon boarding I handed them a personal flight log book asking that they hand it over to the pilots. My question is, how can they handle enthusiasts like me who are uncomfortable with not knowing what's happening, while not scaring other passengers.

@Catija No, I believe that's off-topic for Travel - I'm a regular there.

See above for my actual intended question.

Also, I'm not really sure what an answer would do for you ... what are you wanting to know? How to judge a flight attendant based on your experience? What benefit is that?

@Catija To provide a helpful answer for other flight attendants, in case the same situation happens for me again?

The important thing with any site is why you need the answer... what we say will never matter because what an actual flight attendant does will depend on them so finding a hypothetical best response is useless.

Then let the flight attendant ask.

They are limited by regulations that we are not party to, which is why I don't really think it's an IPS question at all.

4:38 AM

How about the same question, but from my side?

@Catija As in, "what should I do if our plane is emergency landing but no public indication other than a course change and the semi-secret signal has been made?"

Meaning what should you do in that case? I think most people would say, "sit down and shut up". Why do you think you need to be party to private information.

@Catija Because I feel uncomfortable unless I know the truth. I'd rather hear them say, "we don't have enough fuel to land at Heathrow, so we're diverting" than say "oh, we'll be landing soon"

If they could tell people... they would tell people. All you're doing is putting them in a tough spot.

user15026

@gparyani Right, that's comforting for you, potentially scary for others, and once people start panicking, you could have an even worse situation ion your hands

user15026

there is a fine balance between too much info and just enough

user15026

4:43 AM

They likely are trained to only say certain things in certain situations in order to keep the maximum number of people calm

They know I know a little about aviation because I handed them a book with "I am an aviation enthusiast" clearly written on the cover

user15026

@gparyani so? that's not going to change the rules

@gparyani That doesn't entitle you to anything...

user15026

You seem to be missing the point, you're not the only one on the plane

It's not like you're a pilot and you've told them and they'll say Oh, good... the pilot is dead and you're just what we need to land the plane.

user15026

4:44 AM

So yes if they tell you, you feel better but the person that overhears might panic and then tell another person and then you have a plane full of panicking people

(By the way, it has quite a bit of perks. I once got free tea/coffee from a no-frills carrier that charges for it, and two cockpit photos after landing)

user15026

Like...you can't help them, you can't fix this, and demanding info just makes it worse on them because they're already dealing with a potentially tense situation

user15026

And your insistence that they take time out of what they're doing to tell you what is going on could also potentially impede their ability to do their job

user15026

@gparyani that doesn't change anything in any of the points we are making

user15026

like it's probably a good thing people didn;t notice

4:48 AM

That's probably why they turned gradually...

user15026

Because then they would just be calm and chill

user15026

And then they could break the news in a safe and calm manner, like they're very well trained to do

user15026

Like...do you realize the sheer amount of training and retraining they have to do to do that job? They're smart people who know what they're doing, and knowing when to release info and when not to is a very big part of that

user15026

They're trying to keep people safe in a giant tin going super fast in the sky

Especially the ones on flights that go overseas.

user15026

4:49 AM

like....humans were not designed for that. Heck, some people panic even on a super super calm super easy flight

So back to my original question: a question from my view about what to do if I get these signals (most importantly the flight tracker saying that our flight has been diverted) would be on-topic?

user15026

So anything that can potentially add to that is not good because the last thing you want is basically like...a herd of trapped, scared people who feel powerless.

If you don't believe us... you're always welcome to ask. We can't promise it will stay open without seeing the full question and we have no way to know how the users witll respond.

@Catija Anyway, what do you think of the old close reasons vs. this site?

@gparyani I think the old close reasons are old reasons for a reason...

4:56 AM

Would this site have operated differently if the beta began before the close reason rework?

i.e. if we still had NC, NARQ, and TL

user15026

Who knows? There is literally no way to know, and supposition doesn't really matter or help - the reasons are dead for some pretty valid reasons

Area 51 still uses those close reasons for example questions, so if you want to read their text just open the close dialog on any example question there

user15026

Oh, I was around when they existed

And then Robert Cartaino has to close broad questions as NARQ and also clarify that "such questions would be too broad on this site"

I have an SO question that got closed as TL

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: Girlfriend talks to ex-boyfriend ... a lot

I have been dating this girl for about one month now, and for the sake of discussion we'll call her Sally. Sally ended a relationship with her former boyfriend, we'll call him Billy, a couple months ago. Sally and Billy dated for a few months and briefly broke up, then got back together for a few...

1 hour later…

6:06 AM

Woah... I read it all. I read it all! Haha! Finally. It was a lot. I have read it. I did! Wow!

I haven't read even for exams this religiously.

6:43 AM

@NVZ Read what?

@gparyani Everything in this chat room since my last login yesterday.

@NVZ What was your opinion on my chat conversation above?

@gparyani There's a lot of subjects here. Opinions on what?

@NVZ "my chat conversation"

@gparyani Your chat takes many lines. What specifically are you asking about?

6:56 AM

@NVZ What would you do in the case I described above?

2 hours ago, by gparyani

@Catija As in, "what should I do if our plane is emergency landing but no public indication other than a course change and the semi-secret signal has been made?"

2 hours ago, by Catija

Meaning what should you do in that case? I think most people would say, "sit down and shut up". Why do you think you need to be party to private information.

2 hours ago, by gparyani

@Catija Because I feel uncomfortable unless I know the truth. I'd rather hear them say, "we don't have enough fuel to land at Heathrow, so we're diverting" than say "oh, we'll be landing soon"

7:33 AM

@Catija @Ash

0

Q: What should I do if I know my flight has a problem, but no one has announced anything?

So I was on a flight recently (let's say, leaving from Los Angeles). I fly this route quite frequently, and I also happen to be an aviation enthusiast who collects logs of flights from pilots, and every time I board a flight, I hand the flight attendants a book, asking them to hand it over to the...

united-states public-issues public-transportation

@ArtOfCode You seem to have a habit of chasing me down

I'm always in this room

Anyway, what do you think about my question?

No comment

Ever been in that situation?

@ArtOfCode Is it on-topic?

3 hours later…

10:34 AM

@gparyani so you're asking whether I prefer to know the truth or be told something generic? I for one prefer to hear the raw truth.

@NVZ You can read the question, which I posted after those messages.

(Interpret that both possible ways)

@gparyani But it should be noted that not everyone will take the bad news calmly. If we inform the passengers, they'll start to panic. So the raw truth needs to be contained.

3 hours later…

1:51 PM

@Catija Does this question have pending close votes? I don't have 250 rep so I can't see them.

@gparyani at this moment it has 3 close votes

@Peter For which reasons?

2x offtopic and 1x to broad

@Peter What comment is the off-topic close reason?

Or are multiple ones?

(I'd be able to see all this with 250 rep)

that was it, no comments

1:53 PM

Oh, just regular off-topic? Not custom reason?

I think regular voted :)

Yeah, otherwise they'd show as choices in the close reason box

@Peter Would you mind linking me to the CV review task?

CV review task?

@Peter Close Votes review task

euh

1:57 PM

@Peter Never mind, found it myself with a little digging

oki :)

So right now it has one Close review and two Leave Open reviews.

@Peter What do you think? Does it deserve to be closed?

"What should I do" is offtopic

right?

@Peter The title says that, but if you read the question body, the question asks "how can I"

haven't really read it, I'll do that now

I suggest you change the title to something what your actual question is: "how can I properly ask the flight attendant what's going?"

your question is quite hidden, probably the reason of close votes

so changing that paragraph to make it more clear so people see your question immediatly is a good thing to do

the part before your note :)

2:11 PM

@Peter I edited the title. Would you mind reviewing it as Leave Open?

@gparyani you should also edit that paragraph that contains the question, it is hard to read

@Peter Shortened it by removing redundant text.

I see :) I think its more clear now

@Peter Here's the CV review task: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/review/close/8154

@gparyani stop pushing me to review it please :)

2:16 PM

@Peter If you didn't want to review it, why didn't you say so in your original response to my question asking if you could?

I was going to, but I think it is quite annoying if you send me the link every 5 min sorry

@Peter I never sent you the link before that. I only sent it once.

I have a bad day, let me be, sorry for being a little bit irritated

@Peter Thank you very much for your help and review!

you're welcome :)

2:28 PM

@Peter Looks like it ended up getting closed...would you mind voting to reopen it?

@gparyani the people who voted it are long time users, I think there is still something I overlooked

@Peter One close voter thought it was off-topic here and on-topic on Travel. However, I'm a regular there, and I know it's off-topic there.

They commented after I told them so that "well, let's just see what the community thinks", but didn't retract their close vote. Another said in a now-deleted comment that this does fit within the "frame of IPS" but they also didn't retract their vote.

Another voter made this comment:

The actual issue is not IPS at all. As an aviation enthusiast you should know the best thing you can do is stay in your seat and keep out the way. Possibly take pens out of your top pocket, ensure your luggage is safely stowed, and be a relaxed role model in case others are concerned. — Rory Alsop 47 mins ago

...which I rebutted with this:

@RoryAlsop Yes it is. It's about how to communicate with the cabin crew of a plane. For instance, "ask them to grab something from the back, then when out of sight of most passengers, ask the question" (not a real answer, just an example). — gparyani 44 mins ago

@Catija What's your opinion on it?

@gparyani Yup. I know. I am still not sure of its on-topicness

@gparyani She is also not sure IIRC

@AJ She said that before I even posted it

@gparyani I think your question would be better served if you explained that you're neuro atypical. The answer is extremely obvious to anyone who isn't, so many people may not realize why you don't understand that what you're asking is even an issue.

2:40 PM

@Catija That might explain the downvotes, and the relentless pushing of that answer, but doesn't affect whether or not it's on-topic. My question is, is it on-topic?

You're asking how to do something that you shouldn't do. Without context. We do generally close questions like that. We've had a history of it.

2

@Catija How was I supposed to know before posting the question that I shouldn't do it?

Closing implies that there's something wrong with my original post that could have been fixed before even posting it. I didn't find that to be the case.

@Catija Done

@gparyani Ash and I told you last night...

@Catija How was I supposed to know that posts asking about something that shouldn't be done are considered off-topic for the site, when you encouraged me to post it?

3:42 PM

@gparyani that's not really a rebuttal. Generally when a number of folks all say "don't" it's worth thinking they may be right

2

@gparyani as an enthusiast, this is stuff that I would really expect to be second nature - you know of the strict procedures, roles and responsibilities. Please never try to intrude on them, especially in an emergency situation

1 hour later…

5:10 PM

@gparyani I don't think the "autism" tag would fit well with your question - while you may be more anxious about the situation/less aware of an "obvious" answer I don't feel it plays a role in the situation. I feel it doesn't actually add anything to the question - imo it's more fitting for talking to autistic people to achieve a certain goal.

I haven't edited it as it's your post but just my opinion ^

6:04 PM

...

Hello

1 hour later…

7:10 PM

@Crafter0800 The tag wiki for autism states it's for questions "asked by people on the autism spectrum"

@RoryAlsop Okay, okay. I've heard the same thing enough times. I'm not asking about that - I'm asking about whether or not the question is on-topic

4 hours ago, by gparyani

@Catija How was I supposed to know that posts asking about something that shouldn't be done are considered off-topic for the site, when you encouraged me to post it?

The seat belt sign was off when I went up to them, and they weren't preparing for anything, just literally doing nothing. If any one of those conditions didn't apply, I wouldn't have gone up and asked. I'm asking this question in the context where both of the above conditions apply. — gparyani 6 hours ago

2 hours later…

9:11 PM

@gparyani the idea is that it's for questions asked by people with ASD, where that would be of influence on what the answers should take into consideration. It seems to me that crafter questioned whether that was the case here.

2 hours later…

Extroverted Main Man

10:53 PM

0

Q: How do I tell a roommate I'm not renewing his lease?

I am renting a house and subleasing rooms to three other people. One of the roommates is unpleasant for a number of reasons, and while he doesn't have a bad attitude, he doesn't correct his behavior if anyone talks to him about it. I'm only here for a couple of years for school and I had thought...

united-states roommates

11:39 PM

@Magisch I'm fairly sure I got told that essentially on my question about someone asking to borrow my bike.

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