The Awkward Silence

heather

20:07

okay, I'm starting to get kind of upset.

@Catija, @HDE226868, @John: Why in the universe is this question not locked!?

i get you've talked to the CMs. whatever. but you can lock that question, by yourself. Another answer's been posted in the interim. Why is it so hard to take this seriously?

Catija

@heather I am managing this in the way I see fit. Both HDE and I have talked it over and I've sent it to the CMs to deal with. We have had questions that have been managed by the CMs immediately because of the content. I personally do not see any indication in this post that the user is suicidal. The post is also closed.

heather

the way you see fit is disagreed with by posts on our meta and mother meta.

i don't mean to be rude, but i really think it's important that no further activity goes on on that page.

comments, votes, anything.

Catija

@Hamlet Someone is asking for advice on how to be better at interacting with people... that's what we're here for. They are not asking for a diagnosis.

Hamlet

Personally, locking might be overkill, but these questions should be closed imho

Catija

@Hamlet It is closed.

Hamlet

20:18

@Catija yes

Zizouz212

If I may offer my opinion here

heather

69

A: What's the official SE response to serious mentions of suicide or self-harm in posts?

Scroll down for updated, ready-to-use comments. I think Shog9's answer to the Meta Software Engineering question is good enough: I hate to sound callous about this, but... This isn't a support group; y'all probably aren't trained to deal with the outpouring of grief and despair of someon...

^note in #2 it says "flag for a moderator so they can **lock**/delete"

(bolding my own, obviously)

Catija

@heather Using the word "suicide" doesn't mean that they are contemplating suicide.

heather

@Catija yes, I understand that. But please read it again - the OP is calling himself names, demeaning himself, and says he feels worthless.

an explicit mention of the word suicide is not needed to infer that the OP needs professional help that we're not prepared to give.

Catija

@heather In some cultures, that is actually very common and normal. This is an international site.

heather

20:20

anything that is said - perhaps meaning well, perhaps not - could put the OP in an even worse place.

Zizouz212

Personally, I do see signs of suicide/professional help in the question. From the OP's profile name (dipsheet), to phrases such as "it's impossible to live like this" and then just self-demeaning statements. There's no explicit mention of harm, but there are many signals that I'm getting

heather

@Catija look, I think you're missing the point: we need to err on the side of caution. I might as well say it outright: actions we take could be life or death for the OP, and I mean that in all honesty.

> I hate to sound callous about this, but... This isn't a support group; y'all probably aren't trained to deal with the outpouring of grief and despair of someone you've never met and may have absolutely nothing in common with. I'm certainly not. Indeed, there's a decent chance that leaving a post like this around could end up just making things worse.

Zizouz212

On a scale from 1 to 10 (1 being perfectly okay, 10 being it's a really serious situation), I'd probably put that at an 8.

heather

^

What harm does it do to lock the question? None. Please just do it @Catija.

Zizouz212

Not immediately obvious, but it's relatively serious

@heather Locking at this point really wouldn't do anything. There's already answers on the question

heather

20:23

there was an answer overnight, and comments could be made.

but, you're right - it would've been best if it was locked soon after the question was posted!

Hamlet

I think closing asap and deleting comments that try to give non-professional advice is a good solution.

heather

It's closed, deleting answers/comments would be good, and I think it should be locked so no more voting/comments can be added.

It's official policy to lock these sorts of questions.

i cannot tell you how frustrated I'm getting about this. a single mod could have clicked a button in accordance with an already established policy after carefully reading the question and we would be fine.

Hamlet

@Catija @heather that said, the moderators are learning on the job, and I would give them some patience

heather

@Hamlet sure, but this has been said many times since an earlier question was posted and still nothing has been done.

Zizouz212

@heather I would calm down a little bit. I know, stuff like this can be a big deal, but no one here will be perfect, so I would take a bit of a break.

We're still learning here

heather

20:27

@Zizouz212 you're probably right. i apologize.

Zizouz212

That's alright :)

I get it, I'm pretty invested in a whole bunch of things here too. The key is to make our opinions known, but understand that not everything will happen in an ideal way

Hamlet

@heather I'm more frustrated that the people who own Stack Exchange haven't given us better guidance tbh

Mithrandir

@Hamlet I'd say that it's pretty clear what they said: 'pass it onto us, we'll take care of it'... Not sure what you're referring to...

heather

@Hamlet hmm, you think? i guess i thought the meta post was fairly clear.

Hamlet

@Mithrandir but what is this site supposed to do with the questions in the meantime? Let people answer them?

That a CM didn't close the post is a bit worrying to me tbh

Zizouz212

20:33

Honestly folks, if you escalate it, then you've done your part.

I get it - I'm a teacher, so if I suspect that one of my students is at-risk of harm, then I'm required by law to escalate it to leadership, social workers, and maybe even police. There's not much more I can do than that, other than offer support.

You can try placing pressure above, but at the end of the day, you don't have much control over what happens. You've done your part.

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 i thought you're going to college. For some reason I had the impression that you were an undergrad

Zizouz212

You're right, but I've been a volunteer teacher in my community for 4 years

Jon Ericson

@heather Locking such questions isn't the right approach. If it seems like a legitimate suicide threat, the priority would be to delete. (We contact users as a matter of course whether the threat seems serious or not. And we did that in this case.)

heather

@JonEricson and it isn't going to be deleted?

(and I meant locking until action was taken by CMs.)

Jon Ericson

@heather I don't know. I haven't taken a serious look myself.

Jon Ericson

21:03

I deleted it. For what it's worth, I think you all will need to come up with some general guidelines beyond what most sites have. For instance, it's easy for Christianity to draw a line in the sand about "pastoral advice" questions, but not so easy here.

2

Hamlet

21:16

@Zizouz212 why international development, if you don't mind me asking?

Zizouz212

It's a broad field. That program in particular try to combine economics, law, political science and other fields together. I'm a bit of a jack-of-all-trades person, so that program, mixed with the fact that the sector aims to improve quality of life everywhere is kind of my thing.

I do have a couple of "sub" interests - particularly in governance + human rights, health + education, and long-term community sustainability

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 make sure you take some classes on race/colonialism

Zizouz212

Planning on doing that :)

My first year is Intro to Micro + Macroeconomics, World History, Intro to Public Affairs and Policy Management (which is the core program course), Comparative Politics of the Global North + South, Principles of Health Sciences, and (if I can get past the waitlist), Development + Underdevelopment

Hamlet

Toni Morrison's Playing in the Dark is something you should read.

Zizouz212

Playing in the Dark?

Hamlet

21:26

@Zizouz212 it's a book.

I can give you more advanced readings once you've finished that one :)

Zizouz212

Looks interesting, I'll see if I can find it at the library

Hamlet

You should probably read this if you haven't already

mcgilldaily.com/2016/10/…

@Zizouz212 thought for a moment you went to McGill

Zizouz212

@Hamlet I was actually heavily considering about applying there. But then the fees are a bit much, and I figured that if I wanted to study development, then Ottawa would provide a lot of opportunities. The program is also quite small, and it's affiliated with the graduate school of international affairs, so I really liked it

Ah yes, voluntourism. One of the stupidest and most ridiculous things ever.

But yeah, that article nails it. People can't see the "developing world" as a problem to fix. It really isn't. And being a minority myself, people thinking that they know the answers to something they've never seen really sets me off

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 there's a compelling argument that you shouldn't think in terms of a developing/developed divide.

I

The developing world isn't. Problem to solve. What is the developing world then? It's defined as

What definition can you give it?

Zizouz212

The way I like to look at this is that the "developed" shouldn't be aiding the "developing". There isn't "problems" but (and I hate this phrasing), but challenges to overcome and milestones to achieve. They need to be able to have accountability over themselves.

Hamlet

21:41

BTW if you want to create a chat room for the social sciences...

Zizouz212

It's why I really hate voluntourism - because it provides a false illusion of what development is - people "helping" others is not the truth, and so much of it is uneffective, harmful, and exploitative.

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 or maybe it's the concept of a developing world that's the problem

Is such a concept useful?

Zizouz212

I'm not sure it's the concept that is the problem, but more how people interpret the concept.

Hamlet

How does this concept affect our thinking

Zizouz212

Wait, that made no sense :P

Hamlet

21:44

@Zizouz212 a problem with the social sciences is that research is political in nature.

Zizouz212

Oh big time. I also hate so many ideas of how "development" and "good countries" can be measured. It's just plain stupid.

Hamlet

You may think you are making an objective argument, but at the same time you are making a political statement.

This isn't exclusive to the social sciences. All sciences, and the humanities, have this problem.

Zizouz212

Yep.

Hamlet

You can't eliminate the politics, but you can be aware of them.

Zizouz212

And that's a key. You have to be aware of all the factors and biases that come up.

Hamlet

21:47

And you can ask how much the politics influence the "objective argument"

So I ask again: are the concepts of developed and developing useful, from a social science perspective? Do they help you understand the world?

Rubio

22:15

...oosh).

Catija

Welcome @Rubio :D

Rubio

Howdy

Catija

So, let's talk about:

6

Q: Can we close questions where the OP needs professional help?

I have to admit that I feel uncomfortable with how this community is handling questions where the OP shows signs of needing professional help. The question How am I supposed to talk about my inability to talk? (since deleted) is a good example. The question is unspecific, and probably should be ...

discussion

Mithrandir

@Rubio dc must have infected you

Hamlet

Missing so far from this discussion are any concrete metrics or even reasonable "rules of thumb" by which one might identify such questions. It's easy on Stack Overflow - if you're talking about your feelings of despair instead of programming, you're either trolling or in a bad way; the line is much finer here. You started with only two concrete examples, one of which wasn't even asked here; we probably need more than two, but start by trying to identify specific factors in those examples that you find inappropriate and build on that. — Shog9 ♦ 31 mins ago

We need easy to implement guidelines

Catija

22:20

I'm going to work on editing that question to include some more examples. I really appreciate @Rubio's thoughts in response to what Shog commented.

Rubio

It was actually in response to your response to Shog's comments -

You pointed out there's a difference between someone looking for help with an aspect of their life, vs them looking for therapy. (Roughly)

Hamlet

@Catija examples are important bc the best way to build a policy is to know what happens in practice.

Catija

I don't think there's any clear line where someone "needs professional help". I haven't really put much thought into that question because I disagree with the premise. There's a difference between someone asking us for therapy and someone asking about a specific part of their life they want help addressing.

Rubio

I think this distinction is really the key. People coming to this site for help with an aspect of their lives where they're unsure how to navigate a particular interaction, and providing background information about why they're asking or why they're in the place they are, should not (necessarily) require (or perhaps even allow) answerers to set aside the actual question being asked because the person shows signs of needing broader help.

Hamlet

@Catija there are questions where that line is blurred: for example a question mentions a specific problem but then goes on a plea for help that we can't provide bc we aren't professionals.

Catija

22:23

We certainly shouldn't try to answer the unasked question - we're not therapists... but we can and should address their specific question.

Rubio

Imagine, as an admittedly clumsy but worthwhile parallel, that everyone who asks a programming question on SO was "diagnosed" as having a serious lack of programming ability, and rather than address the question they've asked, the answerers all referred them to "How to learn <language> in 21 days" books, or to a programming school.
If that "diagnosis" is accurate then great. If it's not, you've just dismissed their question, probably made them feel like a label and not a person, and sent them on their way with "help" they didn't need, and specifically didn't ask for - and they're no closer …

If their question is a thinly veiled cry for help, that is a different matter - those should be closed as OT, because they are, and the mods can address serious concerns about a person's safety in the usual fashion

Catija

@Rubio Yes.

Rubio

If there's a suspicion of an underlying issue, though ...

Answerers shouldn't be diagnosing depression or suicidal tendencies or any such thing. Even if they do that in their head, the extent to which it should come out in an answer should be limited to something along the lines of
"I'm concerned you may have a broader issue lurking behind the question you've asked, and there is no advice could possibly give you with that in this setting as we lack the expertise and the specific knowledge of your situation to provide you what a mental health care professional could provide."

Hamlet

@Catija sometimes it's hard to separate the two

Catija

The CMs can be pinged to email them about it to make sure that everything is "OK". If the questions are too explicit, we can edit them. I don't know if it's fair to explain it this way but... on Cooking, if someone has a valid question about cooking that also mentions "health", we remove the "health" part and leave a comment saying that it's off topic but that the rest of their cooking question is welcome.

Hamlet

22:29

1

Q: Apology to ex-boss

A decade ago, an unfortunate incident had happened in ex-office and it almost went into a legal suit. Nothing bad happened, but, down the line I realized that it could have been avoided. I want to apologize to my ex-boss about the same. We live in different countries and I do not have any optio...

untagged

Rubio

... Which is extreme here, I think, as the underlying issues may be valuable context here for the actual question

But if you get to the point where you literally can't extricate a question from a plea for help, it's no longer a separate question.

Catija

If the question is solid without the psychology, then the edit should be fine.

Hamlet

One answer included the phrasing

> If you have written 6 pages then it is likely not an apology it is grasping for control over the narrative.

Which maybe is good advice for the specific problem

But is it really the best thing to say given the background of the question?

Rubio

The "Apology" question I think is a perfectly valid and cognizable question that could be answered just fine if you removed the sentence about depression entirely from the question. The gist of the question has at most tangential relation to the depression / suicidal thoughts aspect, and the impression I got was that they had been diagnosed and (thus presumably) are under the care of a professional

Catija

Part of what I like about SE is that the history is all there... I don't have to "control the narrative"... I just post links and explain that I need help knowing how to act.

Rubio

22:33

Where do you draw the line - someone posting on IPS who didn't come out and say they were depressed or suicidal might still be, does that mean every answer should contemplate that potentiality and walk on egg-shells?

Hamlet

@Rubio they explicitly stated that they are unable to receive proper care.

Rubio

Ah. I didn't read through the comments.

In any case - I'm honestly not sure why that line of the answer causes such angst. It's blunt, but not cruel

Hamlet

@Rubio and some people weren't very understanding of that; they said the op should fly to another country for care, which isn't always possible.

Catija

We (as users and moderators) can address content that responds to these questions in a heartless or overtly cruel way but we shouldn't prevent them from getting solutions to their problems because someone might not "Be nice".

Rubio

@Hamlet "some people" were extending their answers to the broader, unasked question, then. "Flying to another country" does not enter into the discussion of how to frame an apology to one's ex-boss. The actual answer I think is fine; many of the comments were not.

So I'd argue that those answers/comments are going beyond the scope of what should be included in an answer on IPS. When suggesting to someone that professional help may be in their best interest, it should basically stop at that statement, and anything beyond that is crossing over the line of what's on topic.

My opinion. It's worth, perhaps, what you paid for it. :)

Hamlet

22:44

@Rubio i think it might be worth recommending a hotline or a similar resource

Mithrandir24601

@Hamlet Maybe... If someone caused a lot of damage to me, then if they decided to apologise, I'd like to know why they did it, but maybe that's just me...

Rubio

Sure. I think there's probably value in the mods, if nothing else, having canned responses they use for (a) giving the suggestion that someone might need to look elsewhere for help with a (perhaps not-so-)hidden underlying issue, and (b) getting people to stop giving off-topic (and perhaps unsolicited) advice beyond that

Catija

@Hamlet Edit done... pretty severe... feel free to roll back anything you think should be. Since I'm one of the only people who can see all of those posts, I'll see if I can't put together some of this into an answer that's more helpful.

Rubio

Those canned responses could be generic, or could provide a specific resource, or might just be adaptations or even literal copies of the ones in the relevant guidance Meta post

Catija

I have to wander off for a bit but please keep the dialogue up. I'll be watching and I'll catch up later.

@Hamlet the entire point of that edit is to not judge the content.

Adding sections to the examples goes against that purpose.

Rubio

22:55

I only popped in here to (re-)share my thoughts expressed elsewhere. I think heather's answer to the Meta question, quoting much of the substance of the guidance from main Meta, is entirely apropos in the case where the message intent is clear: a cry for help

Catija

Because... I'm going to be honest... if it stays that way, I'm going to say "I disagree that ..."

Mithrandir24601

@Rubio Personally, I'd go for the 'tailored specific responses' option (as in, have a generic list of responses to specific situations that are then adapted slightly to fit the context better), but I'm definitely not the right person to be asking about this :P

Rubio

But if it's not, my earlier comments are still my considered opinion for what should (and should not) be done

Zizouz212

Hey all :)

Hamlet

@Catija from my perspective, the edit mixes questions that are problems with questions that ate not.

Catija

22:58

@Hamlet But I (and I think Rubio) am arguing that not all of your "problem" questions actually are a problem.

Mithrandir24601

@Zizouz212 Rytsas! [it's a greeting in Valyrian because 1. Valyrian sounds amazing, 2. I'm moderately obsessed with aSoIaF and GoT and 3. I don't like 'happy timezone' but see why having a time-free greeting is good]

Zizouz212

@Mithrandir24601 Namaste!

Looks like I mixed a bit of fun here?

Hamlet

@Catija nothing wrong with a frame challenge answer :)

Mithrandir24601

@Zizouz212 I was just told what this is last Thursday :)

Mithrandir

GAMEN

Zizouz212

23:00

:)

Catija

@Hamlet That's fine. Just wanted to let you know what to expect. I think Shog's advice in his comment is worth considering, too... talking about "identify specific factors in those examples that you find inappropriate and build on that." Right now, that question is missing that. Perhaps now that I've reformatted you can detail that rather than simply calling them "problematic"? If you are going to take the classification route, you may as well go all the way.

Zizouz212

@Catija I'm wondering we're approaching it from the wrong direction. Instead of asking, how to deal with "issue", perhaps we need to first figure out, how do we know if this is "issue"

Hamlet

@Catija don't think I have the intellectual bandwidth to come up with anything other than what I wrote in the question, unfortunately

Catija

@Zizouz212 That's a great point. I personally don't think it's an issue right now. We have very few examples of truly problematic posts... but I feel like this is a serious enough concern to at least take some time to muck through with the possibility to rehash later on.

Zizouz212

I feel like a lot of the debate has focused on "well, this isn't an issue" because of [insert subjective thoughts] - it would probably do us much better to try and find some sort of criteria that is more objective in nature. Although that would be difficult since judging things is almost always subjective :/

Catija

23:05

@Hamlet Fair enough. Now I actually have to totter off.

Mithrandir24601

@Zizouz212 As everyone has some level of problems at some point, my question is where's the line at which you say/suggest to someone where to go if they need help? Then you can try to figure out if a question is on one side of the line or the other (or borderline) i.e. if it is [issue] or not

Zizouz212

3 hours ago, by Zizouz212

I get it - I'm a teacher, so if I suspect that one of my students is at-risk of harm, then I'm required by law to escalate it to leadership, social workers, and maybe even police. There's not much more I can do than that, other than offer support.

Mithrandir24601

(rereading what you wrote, I may be misunderstanding what you actually wrote :P )

Zizouz212

Ugh screw it. I can't even copy/paste the right thing

@Mithrandir24601 The problem isn't discovering, it's that none of us will really completely understand the situation

You seldom learn what you need to know based on a couple paragraphs on an internet post

Mithrandir24601

@Zizouz212 That's... Very true...

Zizouz212

23:10

Coming back to my point, as a teacher, I develop some sort of risk model - is the student harming themselves or others, both physically or emotionally. Then from there, I need to determine my course of action.

But the difference there is that I have a relationship with my students, which I won't have with people on the internet

heather

@Mithrandir24601 rytsas

Zizouz212

I can determine what is genuinely an issue by the way I talk with them, which again is impossible over the internet

Mithrandir24601

@heather Rytsas!

Rubio

in my opinion, of the four referenced questions, ...
— the "dean" one is clearly NOT a problem.
— the "apology" one, the *question* is fine, and I'd even argue the *answer*, though blunt about its point, is a good answer to the asked question—only the comments (and, perhaps, other deleted answers?) were problematic, but that's not the asker's fault.
— the "inability to talk" question I gather was deleted mainly because of vocal insistence that it be so, but from memory I don't think it particularly warranted it - again, there was a specific question which I don't think the mental health bac…

If you can answer what they asked, do - and don't stray into trying to diagnose, let alone offering suggestions for how to address, an underlying condition. If you can't extricate the question from a cry for help, treat it as a cry for help.

Zizouz212

Here's my opinion:
— Dean - not an issue
— Apology - don't remember it, I'm looking for it
— Inability to talk - There were many "warning" signs that I got from that which lead me to put it as a [Case 1](https://interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/a/1350/16).

About the "inability to talk" that was deleted, there were three answers there, of which I think at least two tried to mention mental health and saying what was "wrong"

Rubio

23:16

Yeah - see - that's where the problem is going to come in.

Zizouz212

There's been so many issues with answers across the site, I just don't trust answers - I try to focus only on questions, being blind to everything else

Rubio

For IPS, I think it's equally, if not more, important to recognize that answers can be just as off-topic as questions, and that here, it matters.

2

Zizouz212

You just said it better than I ever could

Rubio

So treat off-topic answers as what they are. That means Moderators are going to have to be willing, timely, and fastidious about removing answers that don't belong - the community doesn't have the tools to do it, even if they had the discipline to... and apparently they don't, or these answers wouldn't even be posted. :)

^ Ditto for comments.

Hamlet

Re answers

3

A: Why doesn't this site have a back it up rule?

The problem that this site currently has is that the answers are mostly suggestions. What this means is that answers will simply suggest suggestions to the problem, but there is no way for anyone reading the answer to know if the suggestion will work unless they actually try it. This leads to pro...

Zizouz212

23:20

Yep, we need moderators who are very active in that respect. I try leaving comments wherever I see a particularly bad answer - but (and especially if it makes HNQ), it gets upvoted, and I often get criticized.

Rubio

Don't let well-intentioned but misguided answers deprive a questioner from getting an actual answer to an actual interpersonal issue they're having, simply because they thought some background about their situation might help provide color to their question.

@Hamlet It probably should.

But don't conflate the benefit of only allowing supported answers with the need for appropriately on-topic ones.

Zizouz212

Appropriately on-topic? I'm not sure I understand what you mean there

Rubio

If you haven't already, you need to make it clear that offering medical or psychological diagnoses or "treatments" in answers/comments is off topic, and don't allow them. If you don't, this will never end.

Then stick to it.

Hamlet

0

Q: Childhood Parental Influence on my self esteem

I have always had low self-esteem since childhood, as far as i can remember. I've been trying to analyze and find the possible reasons for that. I can only remember being very heavily criticized by my father, for small mistakes, when I was a young child. The problem was that, he often used to do ...

united-states self-improvement parents

And here is yet another example of a question that isn't a specific problem, but a request for professional help.

Zizouz212

@Rubio Pretty sure I've mentioned that a few times on meta. But there comes another issue - many users don't read it, especially new ones.

Also, sorry if it looks like I'm disappearing, my internet is being quite fuzzy right now

Rubio

23:29

Don't rely on them to follow it. That's what moderators are for. Eventually people either get the message or they stop contributing answers altogether, and frankly, either way is better than having people provide answers they have no business providing.

Zizouz212

True

Rubio

@Hamlet Yeah - this is definitively seeking help, not an answer to a question.

That should be closed as OT immediately.

Zizouz212

Yep. I'm writing a comment, and I'm going to place a "Broad" vote

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: Childhood Parental Influence on my self esteem

I have always had low self-esteem since childhood, as far as i can remember. I've been trying to analyze and find the possible reasons for that. I can only remember being very heavily criticized by my father, for small mistakes, when I was a young child. The problem was that, he often used to do ...

united-states self-improvement parents

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 might be worth adding a few extra mods so there's more coverage.

Zizouz212

23:35

@Hamlet What's the site that Jon Ericson said they were making aware of to users?

Ah this:

chat.itskoko.com/stack

@Hamlet Ideas on introducing the link?

Hi there Yash! It sounds like you've been through a rough time. I'd love to help right now, but many of us here just aren't very skilled at providing assistance in situations like these. I just want to let you know that many of us who see this all care for you, and we all wish you all the best! You're best option is to try and find a psychiatrist or a social worker in your community. If you're still in school, you may be able to find support there. You may also find this web service (chat.itskoko.com/?channel=stack) to be of use. Thanks Yash, and I really wish you the best :) — Zizouz212 20 secs ago

Hope that works.

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 seems fine

heather

that sounds great.

is there a general ping for CMs?

Zizouz212

@heather Yes, but only accessible to moderators. What's up?

heather

the question you just commented on =)

i flagged, so hopefully the mods will take care of it.

Zizouz212

@HDE226868 interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/1554/… to close :)

heather

23:42

@Catija I really like the vtc reason you just used - mind if I incorporate it into my meta answer?

Catija

@heather Go right ahead.

Mithrandir24601

@heather (Shog's been in the room recently enough that they can still be pinged, but it seems to be being dealt with)

HDE 226868

@heather It's almost always better to ask mods to do that. Escalating to CMs is not something to be done lightly.

Catija

And, with that, I think my sleep-starved brain is finished for the day.

HDE 226868

Definitely flag.

heather

23:44

@HDE226868 i have done so.

Catija

I mean... I'll be up for a couple more hours but I think I've done all the heavy lifting I can handle... but, who knows... I may yet answer Hamlet's question tonight.

heather

@Catija thank you.

HDE 226868

Yeah, I saw. Thank you.

heather

i feel like I have so much more to write in response to Hamlet's question - how to determine need of professional help, how to respond to such a question even when the question isn't focused on depression/suicide...

Hamlet

Thank you mods. This is exactly how a question like this should be handled.

Of course, we haven't gotten to the tricky edge cases yet.

HDE 226868

23:47

That's because this case was more clear-cut.

Catija

@Hamlet Please note, however... this was a much simpler case. There was no question here. It was an outpouring of information with no question and just a generic "give me advice".

heather

@Hamlet okay, I combined two of the answers and significantly reorganized what I wrote. What do you think?

i might even combine the two remaining ones.

that might be best.

apaul34208

How would you all feel about setting up a question sandbox?

Zizouz212

@heather Your use of my comment should probably not include the "If you're still in school" part :)

@apaul34208 Feel it's a bit too early for that. Let's focus more on figuring out how to deal with issues

heather

why not @Zizouz212?

Zizouz212

23:59

@heather Why not the comment or sandbox?

heather

comment.

sorry, should have clarified.

Zizouz212

Well, because "generally," not everyone is in school :)

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