The Awkward Silence - 2018-09-13 (page 1 of 2)

« first day (442 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (2063 days later) »

IPS Comment Bot

1:05 AM

I agree with the part about using text or email, but I'm afraid I don't see why that statement in block quotes would be inappropriate coming from a man. I've never known anyone with a credible fear that a man would become dangerous if given "no" for an answer, and no one is in danger if it's said over text or email anyway — cat40 1 min ago

#18423 cat40 (113 rep) | A: How to reconnect with my unresponsive childhood friend? (score: -1) | posted 1 hours ago by empty (187 rep) | Toxicity 0.20824488

Matched regex(es) ["chatty", "chatty-weak"]

3 hours later…

IPS Comment Bot

4:20 AM

My point is, John isn't necessarily dumb, he may simply have misunderstood. If he does that often he'll learn to take his time and think before speaking. It's amazing how often waiting just 3 seconds before speaking can reveal that you were about to say something incredibly stupid. — Clonkex 45 secs ago

#18394 Clonkex (101 rep) | A: How to interrupt someone while they are telling a group wrong/embarrassing information? (score: 48) | posted 33 hours ago by swbarnes2 (2249 rep) | Toxicity 0.76451904 | High toxicity

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How do I tell my boss that I cannot learn the way he wants me to?

I'm currently in a new area of the business in what is somewhat a career change (from support to development). I have been in this position for just over a year now, and when I started my boss wanted me to read a 800 page PDF on one of the software packages/IDE/platform that we primarily use. Af...

Extroverted Main Man

4:46 AM

0

Q: Should I leave my dad?

I'm 19, I just graduated in May. I'm planning on joining the Air Force soon but due to the state of my family, I feel some guilt about doing this and leaving my dad. My family has very strong addiction problems. My mother is a paranoid schizophrenic who had a physically abusive father and a schi...

family parents abuse substance-abuse

3 hours later…

7:35 AM

Good morning? Awkward...

Morning ^^

Hey Noon! How's life?

Stressful but nice (it's weird that it's both)

And you, no problem with the server today?

Doesn't sound too strange to me ;) I like having some stress/chaos from time to time ;)

Nope, no problems! Let's hope it stays that way or I'll be having a very boring day at the office!

I rather not have stress but, hopefully, when the meetings that stress me would be done, my life will be better.

7:43 AM

(And that's the part that's best ;) When the stress is done, that moment of bliss and relaxation ;)

I hope I will have that :) But right now, life looks like a train moving too fast and all I can see is the future meetings I will have to do and that will stress me after these meetings that I have to do and that stress me right now

1 hour later…

9:08 AM

pffft, just spent 1:15 hours on the phone with the student loan agency =.= That stuff is exhausting

@JAD Ugh! Tell me about it. Did you get everything resolved though?

not yet, but they'll call me back

which is progress compared to last time

Bring snor to the next in person consultation

"This is my man eating boa in training. Not big enough yet, but soon"

their HQ is all across the country. I'm not going there if I can help it

@JAD We had to go to one of their offices in Zwolle. (Assuming you're talking DUO?)

Spent a lovely afternoon there, explaining their own rules to them

9:11 AM

oh, I thought they were only in groningen

Got the amount I had to pay back down from 1200 to 80 euros though :P

@JAD That was years ago :P

Might very well be there's only an office in Groningen these days

@Tinkeringbell I did a 2-year master, but for some reason my prestatiebeurs was only granted as if it were a 1-year master

meaning I would owe them a year of stufi, instead of nothing

@JAD Ugh...

but I've had multiple people on the phone all telling me that it should indeed have been nothing, so I'm hopeful it'll be resolved

I had troubles because in the last two month of my stufi, my oldest brother had his as well. So in some weird way, that meant I was supposed to get less than I got, but not nothing ;)

@JAD It probably will :)

As much as they mess up, I've never really heard of any times they didn't resolve the mistake afterwards as well ;)

9:14 AM

mhmm, it just sucks that their phonelines are so busy

also, minor grievance: when you're put on hold, the line is completely silent. There's no way to know whether you're still on the line or not

@JAD Yeah, that's confusing

They still didn't fix that?

apparently not

but my mind is all over the place right now. Can't concentrate at all

Yeah, bureaucracy has that effect on people ;)

in other news, I'll be going for a testdrive for my first car this saturday

@JAD Nice! What colour?

9:22 AM

autotrack.nl/tweedehands/skoda/fabia/39835667

@JAD Nice!!

I drove twice this week, at this rate I should be able to handle a lease car in January ;)

small steps :P

Ugh... I hate being dependant on small steps :P But yeah, at least there's progress again

I keep messing up with the transmission though :/

@JAD SE requires more snor pics

k

9:24 AM

:D

IPS Comment Bot

@rockstar I would say that when a person is being rude then you need to deal with it by highlighting the problem that comes in addition to their being rude. For example, if they're being rude and not giving you an answer,then you need to highlight the fact that they're not giving you the answer. <br/> In your case, you came up with a solution - good. They didn't accept it - that's okay. You told them that that's the best you can do - that's not required. Instead ask them why they feel that it's not good enough and in the process of asking you will learn something. If they provide a.. (contd) — Mugen 32 secs ago

#18379 Mugen (387 rep) | Q: How to respond if your colleague is rude to you? (score: 3) | posted 48 hours ago by rock star (18 rep) | Toxicity 0.1744181 | edited 47 hours ago by rock star (18 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]

They're both a bit sluggish and lazy because they ate yesterday

user image

user image

@Tinkeringbell note that Snor is already a bit darker here than on the previous photo

@JAD Hey, that looks much nicer!

IPS Comment Bot

(..contd) a stupid answer, then you can choose to discuss more about the answer to disprove them. You show your expertise by disproving their answers and proving why your answer works, or by learning something new from their answer. <br/> However, as a general strategy, when you're new in a company it's better to not "outshine" others around you. It's good that you're competitive enough to figure out solutions. Even if they give you some stupid answer, IMO it's better to just be gentle with them, focus more on blending in and learning.. (contd2) — Mugen 58 secs ago

#18379 Mugen (387 rep) | Q: How to respond if your colleague is rude to you? (score: 3) | posted 48 hours ago by rock star (18 rep) | Toxicity 0.6791171 | edited 48 hours ago by rock star (18 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]

<3 snor

9:34 AM

I'd make a picture of the hognose too, but he's in shed and hiding

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How can I not be jealous of my spouse?

All my life, I've wanted to do a doctorate (PhD). Four times, I came really close to being accepted to a programme of study, but life got in the way. The first time, I had to move countries to take up a job to provide for my family. The second time, I was not able to afford/find funding (in tim...

relationships conflict-aversion awkward-situations

@JAD does your hognose act like this? i.imgur.com/RokEAUF.mp4

nah, he's all huffy and puffy while in his tank, but calms all the way down when picked up

as with many snakes tbh

IPS Comment Bot

To me it does, but I understand I might be misinterpreting it, my question wasn't rhetorical: I genuinely want to know if my interpretation is correct. My apologies if the comment seems like a flat-out attack of the answer. — DonFusili 57 secs ago

#18431 DonFusili (170 rep) | A: How do I tell my boss that I cannot learn the way he wants me to? (score: 1) | posted 4 hours ago by YElm (2912 rep) | Toxicity 0.11722549 | edited 3 hours ago by YElm (2912 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["chatty-weak"]

Good morning @Belle-Sophie :) Just a FYI regarding this: Meta participation requires a minimum of 5 reputation points earned on main. So the OP there can't really participate in the Sandbox yet.

9:44 AM

easy fix

just upvote the question

(Perfect comment for the rest of it )

@JAD NOOO

I can downvote it first so it'll stay at net 0

Only use upvotes for good questions

Useful ones

@JAD Ehh... that's not how voting is supposed to work, sorry!

but it does work

I'm already a bit disappointed in 'how well' voting works here... I closed a question as off-topic yesterday (day before that?) and it got 3 upvotes after.... :/

@JAD A better approach would likely be for some community member to make a meta post requesting reputation levels on meta be lowered ;)

9:47 AM

eh, I consider myself a member of the chat, not an active contributor to the site itself

10:12 AM

Oh, I didn't realize that, thanks Tink :)

I can't access meta myself at the moment for some weird reason

Oh now I can? Didn't work for like 2 days until 5 minutes ago

This morning I woke up with a cat sleeping under my blankets too

10:33 AM

@Belle-Sophie That's strange... I think I've been on meta everyday ;)

Prime developer excuse: Works on my PC, so yours is strange

10:55 AM

@Tinkeringbell status-norepro

11:14 AM

@JAD Probably ;)

So... brainstorm session. What would be preferred here? I have a set of boundaries. One of them may not be entirely healthy. I never had any problems with it, but now there's been one person showing me how that boundary could be abused. Shall I set a new boundary for the entire group of people that this boundary applies to, or just set stricter boundaries for that one person?

I don't really want to explain why they have to abide by different rules, yet I feel that suddenly changing a well-established boundary may offend these other people and lead to questions as well

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell hm. In theory, there's one loophole

You can always ask questions about your own posts

@JourneymanGeek Really? How?

Journeyman Geek

Not quite a sandbox but if a question seems worth... the effort...

@Tinkeringbell lemme go look on meta

Its a obscure feature TPTB really should be making more obvious

Some boundaries or even some parts of boundaries are assumed, only implied. Unspoken, but still there.

Some people don't see the unspoken boundaries. It can be okay to remind them that it's not okay to break them, even if they're not explicit.

what is the context of these boundaries? Interaction between you and others? Something like that? I don't think you need to make those boundaries explicit, unless you feel they are broken. This is at your discretion

Journeyman Geek

11:25 AM

eep

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/59445/… SO only

Must be going senile :(

@JourneymanGeek Don't worry, it's quite impossible to be keeping up with everything. Interesting fact nonetheless!

Maybe one day it'll roll out to every site :)

Journeyman Geek

OH

82

Q: A way for "new users" to ask about their post specifically

We currently require that new users have 5+ reputation to participate in meta support discussions (bugs, feedback, governance, etc). This is primarily because the use case for meta is not intrinsically obvious, so we require a modicum of "experience" with the site before jumping into it. But th...

feature-request status-completed asking-questions new-users per-site-meta

@Tinkeringbell ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not senile. just search fail ;)

Does mean more questions on meta but it lets folks hash out specific questions on their own until a user gets 5 rep

@JourneymanGeek meta.stackexchange.com/a/277727/369802 strange answer

"active on all meta sites" edited april 27th, "active on StackOverflow"

Journeyman Geek

By sonic

@JourneymanGeek Just... I don't know ;)

I'll go make a sock tonight

Journeyman Geek

11:30 AM

Edited - feels better?

Oh wait, I've just been reading that post wrong...

Journeyman Geek

I could do it with aibo but meh

@JourneymanGeek Honestly? I'd just have scratched the 'except mso' :P

Journeyman Geek

True ;p

Also... public room :P Not the best place to discuss specific grievances with specific users ;)

Journeyman Geek

11:32 AM

This feature is now live on all meta sites except the international sites which are waiting on translations.

seems more elegant

@JourneymanGeek Exactly :)

Journeyman Geek

OTOH, modabuse? ;)

@JourneymanGeek Go ahead ;)

Journeyman Geek

already done

hah, you can't hide anything

Journeyman Geek

11:33 AM

Not from everyone no

I've seen EVERYTHING!

@JAD We can tell you not to tell and clean stuff up ;)

But it's not that bad.

Back to boundaries?

I'll try to come up with a good analogy of what happened (what really happened is something I'd rather not disclose :P)

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell VTC too broad ;p

But boundaries can be relative

Most of my friends, for example know I'm super uncomfortable with physical affection, say getting hugged

But I have a friend who I'm ok with doing that

So its fine to tell one person "Hey, I'm not fine with you doing that"

Sure, but I'd say then there's a different kind of 'friendship' involved? A closer tie perhaps?

Journeyman Geek

without moving the boundaries for everyone else

11:36 AM

I'm really thinking this is one group that I'd like to treat equally

(as I've always done)

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell vaguely

Ah

Well, if you need to set different boundaries for one person, maybe he's not in that group?

@JourneymanGeek Hmmm

Journeyman Geek

Or she.

I'm fine with a generic he ;)

Journeyman Geek

Well since you're asking that, there's clearly something that already differenciates him from the broader group

11:39 AM

But it's not really possible to 'separate' this person further, unless I say 'you're not allowed in any of my groups'

Journeyman Geek

Why is it in binary though?

(no need to answer that ;p)

and if that's the case why not exclude him ?

@JourneymanGeek Let's say he comes with the package. It's in that online game I play, and he's in the same alliance

Journeyman Geek

ahh

I ranted about it a while ago

Journeyman Geek

That gets tricky

11:44 AM

Exactly. So while I'm friends with most of the people there, this one managed to hurt my feelings before even entering the alliance. (I wrote about that a while back). I contacted the leaders about it, and they said they'd keep an eye on it.

Journeyman Geek

Yup

But that also dosen't necessarily mean 'he's the same'

when I used to do battletech - there's some folks I just didn't get along with

We handled the behaviour though the folks who ran the torneys... well...

lets just say they missed a lot of things they should have handled :(

He seems to be falling back into something similar to how he used to alienate me before... Yet I realize that I'm fine with certain things when they come from others, but not from him

Because those others won't break my trust with their behaviour, the way he did

Journeyman Geek

Well, your history with someone can totally affect what you consider acceptable

You're only human ;)

Yeah, so the question is, do I cover my ass and not allow anyone to ever act like that, since he's shown how wrong it can go?

Or do I just tell him to go love himself?

Journeyman Geek

Well, I'd actually go with something in between at first

just point out you're uncomfortable with his actions

then tell him to go love himself with a cactus

11:47 AM

@JourneymanGeek Been there, done that.

Even before he joined the alliance

Journeyman Geek

But probably let the folks who run the Alliance first

Fun part is to come: He'll be at the barbecue tomorrow :(

Journeyman Geek

its not worth burning your bridges with the folks you like...

oh... crap

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, they already know, I've been talking with them

Journeyman Geek

I can see that being bad :(

11:49 AM

At least I have some sturdy guys that have promised to keep an eye on us, and jump in if things go wrong...

(ex military, they must be good, right?)

Journeyman Geek

lol

but I have a feeling that won't resolve a thing, as his excuse seems to be 'but others are allowed to, why am I being singled out? She's being a pussy'

Journeyman Geek

Dosen't take much to take out someone like that ;)

ugh. I hate those arguements

I know. I just don't want to be seen as the drama-queen

Journeyman Geek

Well, that's the fear that keeps people quiet, and enables that sort of behaviour.

11:50 AM

So hence... do I set boundaries for everyone, or just for him and explain endlessly why he's not allowed to

Journeyman Geek

You don't need to explain endlessly

You explain once, and then just disengage.

@JourneymanGeek Seems like I have, the group chat is a bit like the Tavern last week :/

Journeyman Geek

If you're expressing endlessly, you are wasting energy over that guy you should be spending having fun

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, problem being that disengaging doesn't point out every time he crosses my boundary

Journeyman Geek

sigh

Hopefully that won't happen again ;)

11:51 AM

@JourneymanGeek Seems like the room is back to normal :)

I only notice there's less CM's talking about food

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell well,if you're constantly needing to do it...

@Tinkeringbell ya :(

this sounds like it's a verbal thing that offends/annoys you?

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell cheap sexism, or something worse?

@JAD Mostly group chat, but there's some in game behaviour towards me that's annoying too

Journeyman Geek

(I used to be a gamer, and my core group had a few girls...)

11:53 AM

any way of just muting/ignoring him in chat?

Journeyman Geek

@JAD that can get confusing, and is no different from ... disengaging

@JourneymanGeek It's a lot at once, but not really sexist I think.

Journeyman Geek

@IPSCommentBot hence me saying "cheap"

@JAD chat, no. I still have their personal messages on ignore though, from way back in 2016

If this is a game (sounds like it is)

11:55 AM

@JourneymanGeek Huh, wrong ping?

@Magisch It is :)

@JourneymanGeek tempted to log into that account and reply "wat"

Journeyman Geek

oh oops

I think I'm just going to kick some nuts at that BBQ, the state I'm in now ;) 'Hi, I'm <real name>, also know as <in-game alias>' KICK 'You deserved that'

@Tinkeringbell We're a lot more aware of boundary violations in the tavern now

Yello!

11:57 AM

So further violations of other user's personal space and preferences will result in more swift and sustained action then before

good evening!

@Tinkeringbell that's one way to make him remember you

@Tinkeringbell I can picture you doing that, but I'd never have that in me :p

@Magisch No.... we're talking about that thing I mentioned a while back, not about the Tavern ;)

Sorry. This wasn't a 'game' related to those events

This is probably even worse :/

If this is a guild thing in that game you're in, honestly just talk to the leader or officers

11:59 AM

@Magisch Been there, done that, and that's why I'm going to be 'protected' tomorrow

Journeyman Geek

Its a bit shitty there's people like that :(

@Magisch also, I think we're kinda setting our own boundaries too ;)

But they also feel they don't really have any 'power' except kicking him out of the alliance, which they aren't likely to do right now (partly because I can't emphasize to them why I want explicitly him to adhere to different standards)

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell well, that sorts the short term problem

@JourneymanGeek Indeed, it stops the short term. It'll remove his ability to chat with me, but not some of the other in-game stuff

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell more that it stops him being a creep there

12:02 PM

@JourneymanGeek That too

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell but that's pretty much a problem endemic to... well games

How'd I say it

It isn't right but its common

@Tinkeringbell which game?

@JourneymanGeek There's a village idiot in every game? :P

Journeyman Geek

or more

@AJ Empire, 4 kingdoms. Mobile phone game

Journeyman Geek

12:04 PM

and no clear idea on what to do with those

cause its never one event

@Tinkeringbell lol

@JourneymanGeek True

Journeyman Geek

its a collection of many things then one straw basically sending the camel hurtling through the earth into a flaming pit of doom.

Hmm. It may be that I am just creating drama and this is all good intentions and stuff...

but it feels like more straws

Journeyman Geek

eh

That feels dangerously like victim blaming

12:08 PM

Is it victim blaming if you're trying to apply some introspective?

(To yourself?)

But the above is why I'm not sure about setting a boundary for all or just him ;)

Journeyman Geek

Its worth considering though "I am just creating drama" is literally "I really should let this behaviour continue in case I'm overreacting"

Because his camel has more straw

and maybe a piano

and an organ playing monkey...

Hehehe ;) Okay, handshake and a kick it'll be tomorrow

I think it's perfectly fine to have boundaries for just one person

Journeyman Geek

well

he might not be that much of a pain IRL

only kick him if he deserves it and remember, aim past where you're going to kick ;)

@Belle-Sophie Oh, the problem isn't that it's just one person... it's that this person is in a group and demands equal treatment

12:11 PM

You give people a certain amount of trust and if they break that trust, it is perfectly fine to set boundaries just for them.

Well, people aren't equal. You have a reason to want different boundaries for him based on past experiences with him.

We give everyone some base privilege. Privileges (as the opposite of boundaries) can be gained and can be lost.

All true. Then maybe I should post a question on main on how to set a boundary for one specific person

Within a group that's used to equal treatment (by me)

Journeyman Geek

heh, the more things are different... ;p

Online relationships, especially going into rl, can be really difficult

Journeyman Geek

(this is quite literally a "I don't know how to ask this question - lets workshop it, then ask a question" thing - and that happens on SU sometimes)

@JourneymanGeek True, it started as a brainstorm :P But I have an idea for a question now, I might as well ask it.

Journeyman Geek

12:23 PM

@Tinkeringbell well on Root Access, we discourage questions

But stuff like this work very well

and then turn into questions ;)

@Tinkeringbell I used to be an officer in a wow guild

@Magisch I used to have my own alliance in this game. That's where I met mister pain in the ass

if anyone of my members had done anything of the sort to make something like this necessary, getting removed would be the least they could expect

@Magisch ;)

Journeyman Geek

lol

12:32 PM

That'd be great

Journeyman Geek

to use a phrase someone mangled... cough

WORDS WOULD BE HAD.

But I do understand the hesitating from the leading side here..

I have pruned people from the roster for far less

Since they are struggling with how to enforce a different boundary for a single person as well, just as much as me

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell "Hey, so tink's uncomfortable with Foo, knock it off please"

12:33 PM

"I don't care what you've done to make it come to this. I do care that you will respect this boundary. If you don't, get bent."

@JourneymanGeek But Tink does allow B to comment on her hair, why am I not allowed to? I promise there wasn't any malicious intent, she's just being mean to me instead!

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell that's between Tink and B

@JourneymanGeek Well, save the rest for an answer ;)

do you know the other people irl?

Journeyman Geek

Tink is comfortable with B doing it. Tink is not comfortable with that guy doing it.

12:36 PM

See this is where as an officer a red flag called "this dude is a creep and will get bent" would have popped up in my head

Journeyman Geek

If I ever met Tink in person I'd be standing 3-4 feet away and waving XD

My reaction to other people might be different, depending.

I usually give people lots of space

Journeyman Geek

Does not mean Tink has extra cooties.

not unselfishly I want lots of space

also who on earth insists on their privilege of commenting on someone's hair?

If I annoyed someone enough to the point where they had to clarify that i'd think the interpersonal relationship is damaged beyond repair at that point.

I decided to leave the wow guild I had been leading succesfully for two years a few months back

12:39 PM

@JAD Yes! They're exactly as they are online: Fun to be with, to talk with and very nice people.

@JourneymanGeek You can shake my hand ;) I promise I won't start biting immediately

@Tinkeringbell "immediately" :D

@Magisch Oh... that was not a real thing, it's the example I was working into my question ;)

I don't know about that, parrots are known to be quite bitey :p

This situation blew up, suddenly I was evil according to "Dave" and his friends, scheming behind everyone's backs and... yeah...

I'm kind of done with wow-guild politics

oof

that's a gross situation

dave sounds like a paranoid victim player and i would probably see little choice but to remove him for causing trouble and being unable to integrate well

12:48 PM

I went with that route, but another girl (the extremely cute and happens to be single type) got very paranoid over my actions and riled all her fanboys up over it

Ah well, it's behind me now. But never again am I being a guild master in wow anymore.

:(

it is a heck of a responsibility

@Belle-Sophie Hope you at least emptied the guild bank before leaving

@Magisch I did steal a mount from it worth quite a bit :) I restarted on another server so money didn't help me

EU or US?

EU

I'm on Argent Dawn, Alliance side

1:03 PM

I'm on Magtheridon, Alliance side

0

Q: How to set and enforce a diferent personal boundary for a single problematic person in an online group of people?

Background I have been playing an online mobile phone game for about 3 years now. The game is about building a castle, an army, and you go and attack either other players or computer generated targets. In the very beginning, I had my own alliance and encountered a problem-player, someone who exh...

boundaries online-interaction netherlands

Done!

Why can't I write short questions?

No need for 2 oneboxes.

1:24 PM

@Tinkeringbell just reading your post... so can't the leadership define boundaries that apply to everyone, and if this person is violating them even just to you, kick them out of the alliance? So this person isn't a special case?

@Tinkeringbell why? It was just parroting ya. ;P

@DaveG That would also break a lot of the fun group dynamics we have with the rest of the group :)

One of their things was they constantly called whatever you'd do 'worthless'. Now, with the rest of the group, they do it sometimes too, but then I know it's in jest, and they'll let me know how to improve

They just keep finding ways to say whatever I do is 'worthless'

@Belle-Sophie just reading back, I was in a guild where the GM dissolved the guild and absconded with the bank. Lots of unhappy people. I guess we weren't good enough for him, but I don't know how it turned out. '

One raid the leader was saying we were "behind schedule" and I said that if wanted to be on a schedule, I'd be at work. At least that got a laugh

@DaveG That sounds pretty awful :\ I tried leaving the guild in a good position. They've been rebuilding.

Journeyman Geek

1:57 PM

meh. Answer posted ;p

« first day (442 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (2063 days later) »

Transcript for

Sep '1813

The Awkward Silence

Welcome to The Awkward Silence! Here, you can find the general...

join this room
about this room

00:00

06:00

12:00

18:00

all times are UTC

site design / logo © 2024 Stack Exchange Inc; legal

mobile