The Classroom

heather

00:03

@BenI. whoa, seriously? cool! thanks =D

Ben I.

01:02

Happy 4th of July to everyone who celebrates!

Getting ready for fireworks on the east coast :)

ItamarG3

05:02

All I can think of is a song named "Fourth of July" XD. But that is probably because I don't live in the US

--

Oops.

I've noticed that as the q/d rises, the answer percent drops. Kind of makes sense: the new stream of questions isn't getting answered fast enough. Yet.

Oh no! Our views per day dropped by a lot! (2100 to 1700)

Gypsy Spellweaver

Considering where the traffic seems to be coming from, and the holiday there, I'd expect it to fall for July 4th. And on the 5th we'll probably only get half of it back. Too many people will still be feeling the effects of the 4th.

ItamarG3

Good point

Time for me to go on a mosquito hunt

ItamarG3

05:33

StackExchange so darn slow.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Can't imagine why. Seems to always act up for you, yet every time it does mine seems normal. Maybe there's a routing issue between continents.

ItamarG3

I'm sure it's a local, machine only problem

not joking: I think ants might be eating the internet cable, because I see them going into and out of the cable, and swarming the place. It's horrid.

That's why I didn't post it on meta.

"Urrrm, so. I think ants might be making problems with my connection to your servers"

Gypsy Spellweaver

Which browser are you using

ItamarG3

the odd thing is that other sites don't work so bad, so there's another problem, specific to SE

chrome!

Gypsy Spellweaver

Is there an extension for chrome to time and graph page loads?

ItamarG3

05:37

probably. I'll check now

OK. now what?

Gypsy Spellweaver

Load an SE page and see what's taking the time.

Probably one of the cdn'd things

ItamarG3

probably.

good idea

well, one not too informative extension says that the page timed out

yikes. 78 seconds to load

What's DOM?

Gypsy Spellweaver

Document Object Model, the translation of the HTML into the tree of elements

ItamarG3

oh.

so that took the most amount of time

ItamarG3

06:03

oh boy

meta question dispatched

so slowwwww

I got a comment\answer but because it loads so slowly I can't view them

ItamarG3

07:29

well, the question got an upvote.

Henry WH Hack v2.0

The one on meta.SE?

ItamarG3

yep

Henry WH Hack v2.0

ok

ItamarG3

but no replies. only a comment that I didn't understand

Ben I.

12:48

@ItamarG3 Which Meta post?

I can't find it :P

ItamarG3

13:05

The one about my computer loading SE very slowly. You can go to my profile on meta.se to see it.

Learning all the goodies of java 9 at the moment.

heather

15:01

hello

this question might be too broad.

ItamarG3

I find it unclear. Which borders as being too broad. But I might be thinking that simply because I didn't understand what OP is asking...

heather

15:17

well, i find it a question asking about all the analogies that are commonly used to give mental models to students.

though i might be misunderstanding it.

ItamarG3

No, I think you're right.

I also think it's too broad, but I'll reread it to make sure that it is too broad.

Gypsy Spellweaver

16:20

@heather Valid "statement", but no question. If it was converted to a question, it would be to broad. As it is, correct reason it "unclear what you are asking."

Ben I.

16:48

What are the odds it will make it all the way to closure without me or thesecretmaster?

ItamarG3

depends on what others feel.( I'd say the probability is about 3/5 ;)).

Ben I.

I think there are some very good questions that can be distilled out of that question, he just needs to figure out which one he wants and point us in that direction.

ItamarG3

I disagree. If there are valuable things there that can be made into a question, it must be posted separately, and the question has to be clear. I don't think a question that doesn't have the details or context needed to answer without asking OP for those details (unless OP is new to the whole idea of SE) should remain open. If he edits it so that it states what he wants, clearly and not shopping-list like, then I'd happily retract my vote.

Ben I.

I agree with everything you just said.

thesecretmaster

I also agree

Ben I.

16:57

I didn't think I said anything that contradicted that. I certainly didn't intend to

Gypsy Spellweaver

@ItamarG3 If it takes 5 close votes then it's at 3/5 now. If it only takes 4 then it's at 3/4 already. If the reasons have to match, then it's only at 2/5 or 2/4.

ItamarG3

@BenI. I was only referring to the last part of what you said. "he just needs to figure out which one he wants and point us in that direction". If it's unclear what we should answer\address regarding the question, it should be split into separate questions.

Ben I.

I agree.

I was only saying that, if there are 50 reasonable paths he could take with the (nice) setup he created, he needs to choose only 1 of them for this particular question.

Gypsy Spellweaver

I don't even see a question there. Merely a statement, one that many agree with, still, only a statement. We need some analogies

Ben I.

It can't be reopened until he chooses a direction to take it.

And now that there's an answer, it may be too late :P

Gypsy Spellweaver

17:05

Two answers, but none with upvotes.

And neither is an "answer". One is guidelines for sample answers, the other is a warning about trying to find an answer.

Ben I.

I am slowly learning that answering questions that are about to be closed is often not a favor to OP, because it constrains how they can revise the question.

I'm off to lunch, and then back to my (actual) job. TTY all later!

Hey, Buffy!

Gypsy Spellweaver

Greetings, Sir Puppy.

Ben I.

Sir Puppy :)

Sir Pup-pup

Buffy

Not a dog. Not that cute.

Gypsy Spellweaver

So says the profile, but a picture is worth 1K words.

ItamarG3

17:11

1,238 words, actually (his rep atm)

Buffy

There is some chatter about the mail-box metaphor around in comments to various questions. i think @nocomprende is worried about reaching students on a complex topic. Why not invite him/her here to discuss and maybe revise, rather than close. The writer has good ideas, imo, generally.

Or to the guidance office, of course.

My answer hasn't had time for up votes (or the dreaded alternative) yet.

ItamarG3

I'd like nothing better than OP revising their question. Currently it looks unclear.

@Buffy o.o I'm sorry. I didn't understand the relevance of that. Are you referring to what Ben said here?

Buffy

Actually I didn't see his comment. I've been thinking about @nocomprende 's question all morning and just answered when I returned from "stuff"

ItamarG3

Ok...

Buffy

Can the mods get an idea of how many folks are around at any time? I have an idea that is possible. If it has been a slow day, not seeing action on a given question has a different meaning than on heavy days.

BTW, what is "OP"? TIA

Gypsy Spellweaver

17:21

Original Poster

ItamarG3

@Buffy yes. Moderators can access site analytics, which means they see all sorts of graphs and stats.

Gypsy Spellweaver

sometimes Original Post

Buffy

Still grokin' the lingo

Or, not grokin' it, I guess is more accurate.

I think the question at hand is more general than its statement implies, so I gave a more general answer. The SQL stuff was just an example of the issue.

ItamarG3

@Buffy Which issue? I couldn't identify which issue OP is asking about.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@Buffy What question were you answering there? The nearest he comes to asking a question is How else can we avoid the result that ....?

Buffy

17:33

In cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/1419/…

I think the essence is in the last paragraph. How can we transmit good mental models (and what are they)?

ItamarG3

We know which post, but what is the question you identified? What is being asked there?

Well then that should be crystal clear, in my opinion.

Gypsy Spellweaver

What he said ^^^

Buffy

Agree, so a revision, rather than close. One of you could do an edit, perhaps if @nocomprende isn't around.

ItamarG3

we can't edit if we don't know what the original asker is, em, asking.

Buffy

A reason for you folks to be able to send email to the member.

ItamarG3

17:36

not at all.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Looks to be asking for list of memory models, see his answer.

ItamarG3

too much spam would be created.

@GypsySpellweaver list, sounds reminiscent.

Buffy

Not exactly about memory models, but the OP does focus a lot on that, I think.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Comments can ask for clarification. If OP cares enough about the question they will revise, if not it gets closed.

Buffy

Not JUST about memory models...

ItamarG3

17:37

@GypsySpellweaver agreed

Gypsy Spellweaver

@Buffy Hence the question is either too broad, or unclear, or both.

Buffy

I could think of ways to revise it, but I'm not sure the OP would agree, so unclear.

ItamarG3

Exactly

Gypsy Spellweaver

If it gets closed, it's not deleted, just on hold for repairs.

Buffy

Suppose [email protected] could send noreply emails and mods could send with that from address. Still spammy?

Gypsy Spellweaver

17:40

By not being able to answer a closed question, the OP isn't stuck trying to edit/clarify the question and avoid invalidating existing answers.

@Buffy Spammy because the OP probably has not opted in for such emails.

Ben I.

@Buffy I'm not really here but I peeked in for a second. Just to clarify: question closure is not the end of a road for a question, it's often meant to be the start of a rebirth, pheonix-like, into a better version of itself.

Buffy

Right. TY

Ben I.

Closed questions get marked "on hold". All this means is that no further answers can be made. IIRC, answers can still be voted on, but the question is cannot

At that point, OP gets to revise the question as much as he or she wants. OP can seek out guidance, ask questions, and try to fix the question until it is up to a community standard. At that point, it can be reopened.

Buffy

Actually, my first on-hold question got voted up a few times. This one: cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/1180/…

Ben I.

The rationale, I think, (I'm still new at this) is two-fold. First, it tells OP that they really do need to edit the question, and second, by preventing answers, it also can save the question itself.

It is poor form to edit a question in such a way as to invalidate answers that people have already worked on.

Buffy

17:51

Pretty sure it changed. Yes @BenI.I understand.

Ben I.

So, if a question really is too broad, then having a series of answers there can make the question itself almost impossible to edit into what OP really needs.

So I guess I wouldn't think of question closure as a slap in the face (or even on the wrist). I think it's meant to be helpful to the community and to OP

@Buffy thanks for that correction. I wasn't sure.

Buffy

Needs to be communicated. Especially to low rep users. It can feel like a slap. @EllenSpertus actually had a question on that point today.

Ben I.

That's a good point. I never quite articulated this (even to myself) until just now. As I said, I am very new to this :) I will try to make that clear when questions are closed going forward.

Gypsy Spellweaver

On hold only prevents new answers. Comments on question, comments on answers, votes on either, and on comments, and flags on anything, all still are allowed.

Buffy

It is a subtle thing. Many of us have big egos (not me of course - cough)

cough

Ben I.

17:54

@GypsySpellweaver That makes sense. So it really is just a way to avoid hemming OP in prior to making edits.

Gypsy Spellweaver

The stock text in the On Hold box is pretty good at explaining the root cause.

An extra comment from the community never hurts, of course.

Ben I.

I've never felt warm and fuzzy about question closure before :P

I've gotta go back to work. :( It's sad, because I just want to be here on this site basically all the time. :P

Buffy

@nocomprende just commented on my answer, so is present. How about an invitation from one of you.

Ben I.

I'll ping him, and then I'll go and leave it to y'all

@nocomprende if you're around, we're in chat discussing your question. We'd love to have your input!

Gypsy Spellweaver

He's around, somewhere, just got a new comment on the question.

Buffy

17:59

Or she, of course.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Perhaps a comment from @BenI. inviting them to the Guidance Office?

Buffy

I just got an up vote on my answer, likely from the OP and an accepted answer mark.

On another issue lately. I've been getting requests to approve edits on some questions. Some of them are not my questions, though. So I really have that much power? AND does the one that proposed the edit get "cargo" when the edit is approved? rep?

Gypsy Spellweaver

@Buffy Yes to rep, +2 pts

Buffy

@GypsySpellweaver PLUGH??? enlighten me

Gypsy Spellweaver

My personal preference, when reviewing edits, is to approve if at all possible. If it needs more work, I'll Approve and edit, rather than Reject and edit

Buffy

18:07

One I accepted (on my own post) but modified the edit a bit.

Gypsy Spellweaver

His "a maze of twisty little passages, all alike" is from an ancient. main-frame/PDP-11 game called "ADVENTURE". PLUGH is a keyword therein.

Buffy

Bit arcane for the comment section?

Gypsy Spellweaver

Though I don't grok his last comment.

Buffy

A google search for PLUGH turned up nought.

ItamarG3

@GypsySpellweaver I'm not sure what he meant by posting that ..

Gypsy Spellweaver

18:12

I said "ancient" pre-Google.

Heck, pre-Internet even

Buffy

I was there then, actually.

The first computer I ever saw was in a locked room and weighed about ten tons.

Things are getting weird when the mods are having a conversation in comments ;-)

Should we approve inconsequential edits? Really just preferred phrasing, rather than something that clarifies. i was just tempted to reject one, but skipped instead.

Aurora0001

18:31

@Buffy This one? I rejected because it looked like the editor was just trying to leave a comment (the revision comment is "Comment: i think u should find a link to the paper ur quoting....")

They didn't actually add a link, and the rest of the edits were completely superficial

Gypsy Spellweaver

@Buffy Generally a judgment call. I, too, rejected, as it didn't really improve the post.

Aurora0001

The general principle I follow is "does it improve the post in any way (however small)?"

@Buffy Since you've passed 1000 reputation, you can edit anyone's post instantly, and also review other people's suggestions (if you want)

Gypsy Spellweaver

One edit I will always reject is when the OP is in one dialect and someone thinks they need to change how things are spelt, to make it proper English. Otherwise, I rarely reject unless it really is purely superficial.

Buffy

18:45

If I ping someone here with the @ syntax, but they are logged in to the site, but not in chat, do they get a notice at the top of their page? I think I saw something once that may have been that.

Aurora0001

No, they have to have been in the room in the last 7 days to be pinged in here

Moderators can do a 'superping' which will ping a user from chat even if they haven't entered before, but it's not something to use too often

Buffy

19:13

FWIW, If @nocomprende edits the post and makes my answer unrelated to the new version, I'll edit/remove it as needed.

ItamarG3

19:57

If someone could review my new question, I'd be very grateful. (I'm not sure how good it is, but I think there's value to it)

Very quiet here, isn't it? XD

Aurora0001

Looks good to me

ItamarG3

Oh, sigh. Good to know. I really was unsure. Mainly because the cs staff's interest in my opinion is very new. I mean, just finished school and then they asked me if I think the current curriculum is good. I was stumped.

Buffy

I'm not a big fan of it. What are you looking for? Opinion? List of Java's latest features? I tend to be a bit conservative around versions, leaning more toward the core functionality rather than the latest and ?greatest?

Java 8 was a big jump, Java 9 seems less so except for modules which will help with large teams, large projects. Not so much with school-sized stuff < opinion of course >

I'm a big fan of Creativity Under Constraint. Doing a lot with a small tool box. Using brain power and cleverness rather than a new ?improved? hammer.

ItamarG3

20:13

That's true but java 9 has Stream API which got a load of improvements, and I'm thinking about that. But I'm not closed.to other suggestions for java 9 benefits.

@Aurora0001 thanks for the edit. I'm on mobile so I didn't see the output well.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Big question: Are there good textbooks available for Java 9 yet, or will you have to adapt from older Java 8 textbooks?

ItamarG3

I'd read java 8 stuff and then read about modular systems.

As well as oracle's official changenotes

Buffy

When does a plethora of features start to detract from the core learning that students need to do. I don't know what level you teach of course. A not very valid way to look at it is with x features and y brain capacity you have x/y to devote to each feature. I'd rather increase that fraction and I can't much modify y.

It is too easy to increase x and hard to increase y. < philosophy >

Buffy

20:32

BTW, @ItamarG3 do you teach simple design patterns? Strategy, Observer, 4 or 5 others? These give a powerful structured way to think and build code.

thesecretmaster

Does anyone think the SMART board question is a duplicate of the projector question?

Gypsy Spellweaver

@thesecretmaster I don't.

thesecretmaster

OK. I brought it up here because I'm not very sure. I think they're similar but not the exact same.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Actually opposites. New one is looking for help deciding yes/no about adding a SMART board. Old one was when to not use projector (or other tech) and go back to plain (white/black/green) board.

thesecretmaster

Actually never mind. It's the reverse of the projector question. It asks "Are there actual uses or benefits of a SMART Board in teaching CS that I'm just not seeing? How have you used SMART Boards in your classes?" and the projector question asks "which concepts are easier to explain with a blackboard and how would you use a blackboard to explain them?"

^^ Exactly what gypsy said, sorry for repeating you.

Gypsy Spellweaver

20:45

Great minds think alike

thesecretmaster

I'll leave a comment

Gypsy Spellweaver

Personally I haven't seen the benefits of SMART over normal projector white-board combination. I do think it has potential, but the enabling software just hasn't arrived in force yet.

thesecretmaster

You can touch it. (Oooooo)

It's great at distracting teachers in my HS experience.

And for people to write on it with expo markers and then realize it won't come off.

Gypsy Spellweaver

It's not really touch-sensitive either. Just acts like it.

thesecretmaster

What do you mean? It's a touch sensitive white screen with a projector, right?

Gypsy Spellweaver

20:50

@thesecretmaster The good ones are whiteboards, and Expo® markers will work properly.

thesecretmaster

My school doesn't have the good ones then XD

Gypsy Spellweaver

It has 4-corner wide-beam sensors that detect touch and also recognize the size of the object to know if it's the pen or the eraser.

thesecretmaster

So they're optical sensors?

Gypsy Spellweaver

It also used near-field with the pens to know which pen color to use, if you have the multi-pen model and the multi-color pen set.

thesecretmaster

I don't know what near-field is

Gypsy Spellweaver

20:54

IR, IIRC, but optical in some fashion, yes

thesecretmaster

IR is optical, just different wavelengths

Gypsy Spellweaver

Near-field is really close, low power radio. Think Apple-Pay

thesecretmaster

And it detects the color of the pens with optical sensors?

Gypsy Spellweaver

Actually, in the SMART board arena, it's more like RFID

Radio-frequency identification

Radio-frequency identification (RFID) uses electromagnetic fields to automatically identify and track tags attached to objects. The tags contain electronically stored information. Passive tags collect energy from a nearby RFID reader's interrogating radio waves. Active tags have a local power source such as a battery and may operate at hundreds of meters from the RFID reader. Unlike a barcode, the tag need not be within the line of sight of the reader, so it may be embedded in the tracked object. RFID is one method for Automatic Identification and Data Capture (AIDC). RFID tags are used in many...

The optics determine where and guess what based on size. The RFID, if equipped, can detect which tool is in use.

thesecretmaster

I would've been surprised if they used optical for colors, RFID seems much more practical.

Gypsy Spellweaver

20:58

Even without the RFID enabled, you can select the color to draw with, just like in Paint, et al. from a palette on the side.

Draw with your finger, erase with the side of the hand, or the palm.

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