The Great Debate

Roland Taylor

00:00

A lot of what you see on "your side" is in all honesty made up about us.

For example, the shroud of turin/m (forgot which letter if m or n)

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor you'd be surprised at how nice we are about religious people, most of us anyway

Roland Taylor

there was a patch added to it at some point

and that is the only part that anyone wanted to do carbon dating on

they refused to date the original material

now, I don't believe in carbon dating anyway, but why would you only date a patch that was added after the cloth was damaged, and not the original?

Stefano Palazzo

just as most religious people don't hate atheists, gay people, or even those pesky post-modernist composers with their counterpoints and all that

Roland Taylor

and then use that as "evidence" that it is a fake and that we believers are using evidence that isn't real?

@StefanoPalazzo lol it will take a while to teach you this, but I'm not "religious".

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor now that's a bit of a surprise.

explain please

Roland Taylor

00:02

A lot has been done in the name of "Christianity" as a religion, that has nothing to do with "Christ" or His teachings.

Jesus never taught a religion.

God never gave man one either.

In fact, God hates religion as much as you or I do.

All God ever wanted was a relationship with mankind, as a Father with children.

Stefano Palazzo

well, okay that's not how I meant to use the term

Roland Taylor

It's us who have come up with the various "religions" because of sin, and as you can see we make a lot of trouble with it.

Stefano Palazzo

believing in a personal god, that's what I meant

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo you know, a lot of people who believe in God don't do what He wants?

Take me for example, I slip up still :P

Stefano Palazzo

the fact that some of those people combine to form organisations is irrelevant, I despise most of them of course, but not because of their faith, just because of some of their deeds

Roland Taylor

00:04

Like sometimes, I'm rather unkind...

@StefanoPalazzo what deeds are those btw?

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor all the evil that is done in the name of organised religion. things you and I would both call evil (mostly anyway)

like, indoctrination of children is one I really can't stand

or, you know, murder and violence

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo but then...

Stefano Palazzo

like the attacks of September 11th, that's one example

Roland Taylor

children are indoctrinated in school all now, about evolution

recently there was even a Darwin day, with "evolution evangelism"

@StefanoPalazzo those were done by a people who don't follow God's ways at all

just because they claim to follow God, doesn't mean they do

heck, they don't even believe in a personal God

or one that makes Himself known to man in any way

Stefano Palazzo

sure they do, they pray

Roland Taylor

00:08

even in their paradise their god will be far off

Stefano Palazzo

a personal god, I suppose, is one that answers prayers and takes an interest in the world

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo a personal God can also say no to your prayers, and leave the world to its own free will.

Stefano Palazzo

as opposed to a deistic god, who made the world and then buggered off

Roland Taylor

It makes Him more of a person.

Stefano Palazzo

right I just use the term "personal god" to distinguish from deism

I don't mind of he's very personal or only a little personal.

Roland Taylor

00:10

you know...

your being atheist is one of your biggest pieces of evidence for God.

no one goes around labelling themselves "aunicornist"

Stefano Palazzo

go on :)

Roland Taylor

no one will expend their energy trying to prove unicorns aren't real

Stefano Palazzo

Well, I suppose you could call me an anti-theist

I think belief is harmful to people, therefore I make an effort to display my non-belief more prominently. As opposed to the people who "just don't care" (they are technically atheists)

Roland Taylor

but every human being at some point in their life either tends toward a belief in some form of a God that is beyond them, or a rejection of all gods/God

@StefanoPalazzo but why is belief harmful if there is nothing to believe in (in reality).

You also shouldn't care.

Stefano Palazzo

because people make up stuff to justify their evil deeds

surely you agree

Roland Taylor

00:13

If God isn't real, then you don't need to care about those who have a fantasy that He is. It's just like a unicorn.

@StefanoPalazzo of course.

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor I only care because of two reasons

Roland Taylor

I would also say, that people (like yourself, no offence) reject God so that they don't have to do anything about the fact He exists.

Stefano Palazzo

1) I think some people do evil in the name of God, which they wouldn't do were they atheists (everything from "praying for their child's cold to go away rather than giving them medicine" to starting wars and massacring peoples)

and 2) because I think (my philosophy) is true

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo well, I believe in God not from indoctrination, but from experience.

Stefano Palazzo

I understand, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that

Roland Taylor

00:17

For example, I have a friend who has a daughter with a terrible illness (for her sake I won't name it), but basically she has episodes that can get pretty terrible.

Stefano Palazzo

It would be wrong if you deliberately misguided a weak person, like a child, to believe what you do

Roland Taylor

One night at a prayer meeting she was about to have another one, and we prayed over her, and nothing happened.

She has been fine since then, not that episodes don't occur, but just that she's been fine.

Stefano Palazzo

I assume she sees a proper doctor?

Roland Taylor

Today again the same thing happened while she was sitting next to me, was about to have an episode, pray - went away.

And yes, she used to go to the doctor regularly.

Her parents are believers now, and they usually pray over her and she's been fine for months.

Stefano Palazzo

what do you mean used to?

did the doctors advise to come in less often?

Roland Taylor

00:19

I mean, since they began to pray over her, she has not gotten to the point of needing to go to the doctor.

Stefano Palazzo

oh okay

Roland Taylor

Another story for you - my own brother.

He died and came back.

Stefano Palazzo

I'm assuming she would be brought to one if the episodes re-occured

Roland Taylor

They haven't so far ;)

and I don't think they will if we keep up with prayer.

Stefano Palazzo

holy cow

surely you don't reject western medicine? (old fashioned terminology I know)

Roland Taylor

00:20

of course I don't :D

contrary to popular belief, God loves doctors.

One of the writers of the Bible was a doctor by profession.

Another, was a well educated Scholar (also apparently was into the philosophies and science of his day).

Stefano Palazzo

So I figured

Roland Taylor

Both men speak of prayer quite often, for when people need to be healed or w/e.

And, the Bible does not speak against doctors, ever.

Stefano Palazzo

I can't remember who said it, but I have this quote in mind: "I believe god wanted me to break my leg, and he wanted me to put a cast on it"

Roland Taylor

you can claim to believe God wants you to do anything...

that doesn't mean a thing.

Stefano Palazzo

If all believers would think like that, we'd be just fine

Roland Taylor

00:23

Trust me, from experience, I know.

Now I want you to think about this from another angle.

You say you think it is wrong to teach children to believe in God... yada yada...

But what if I **know** better.

as in, what if, I have met God (this just supposing now):

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor doesn't matter

Roland Taylor

and He wants me to share it.

Would I be right to keep it to myself?

Stefano Palazzo

they are vulnerable, they believe everything because of their genetics (they believe "don't go near the tigers" without evidence).

Roland Taylor

Or right not to try to convince others?

Stefano Palazzo

you have the right to try to convince them, once they are capable of rational thought

Roland Taylor

00:25

@StefanoPalazzo they don't believe a thing because of genetics...

Stefano Palazzo

doesn't the bible teach something along those lines?

I.e. you have to reason about god before you can believe in him?

Roland Taylor

The Bible actually says, train up a child in the way that they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it.

@StefanoPalazzo actually no it doesn't.

Stefano Palazzo

ugh.. don't like that one :)

I think it's morally wrong to teach someone who will believe you, no matter what you say

Roland Taylor

Because, the Bible rightfully says that man knows full well there is God, but some people just don't want to accept this.

Stefano Palazzo

even if you are right

Roland Taylor

00:26

@StefanoPalazzo it is?

that's not right at all.

If that were right, then you should have stayed away from school.

If you get children, abandon them in a forest.

Cause whether you like it or not, you will be teaching them something.

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor This is morality and ethics that go above the basic things we can all agree on

if there is dispute, you may not teach it to someone who is entirely unable to reason about it

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo no, according to you we should not teach them if they will believe us whether we are right or wrong.

So, we should not teach children, period.

Stefano Palazzo

okay then I need to correct my statement :-)

We should not teach them disputed morals and questionable ethics until they can understand them (reasonably well)

Roland Taylor

BTW - to allay your fears, the Bible teaches that every man has to make his own decision, even children.

@StefanoPalazzo then again, we should not teach them at all.

If you send your child to school they will learn something that is disputed by someone.

Stefano Palazzo

right, we then have to, as good people, explain to them that there are many different opinions

but we may not have them believe that there's only one, and everyone else is a nutter

Roland Taylor

00:31

but by making them to understand anything, by the nature of a child, they believe it...

Stefano Palazzo

again, we can all agree on some basic morals

and we should employ those to put the rest of them in the right context

"some people thing being gay is evil, some think it's natural - but whatever you do you mustn't harm your fellow humans because of what they think or say"

Roland Taylor

and where do these basic morals come from?

Stefano Palazzo

something like that would be reasonable

@RolandTaylor that's a good question, which I have yet to study

I've no idea where they come from

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo =) or who...

Stefano Palazzo

I've read something about the evolution of a golden rule, but again, not enough to make any brilliant comments

Roland Taylor

00:35

If you ask me, we've had some great evolution here...

You've beat all around the bush - made a tree of life of sorts...

I think you need to make a decision - to not ignore the reality any more.

It's not popular, but make the first step. Accept that God is.

Stefano Palazzo

Well, like I said, I can't do that

and I estimate I never will

it's just against my nature, if you will

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo it is.

The nature of man is contrary to God.

Stefano Palazzo

Well, it's against my nature to accept something without enough evidence

Roland Taylor

But that doesn't mean that there isn't something in you that remembers where you came from - and that being your original state of being with God.

Stefano Palazzo

if you can ever provide that evidence, I will change my mind immediately

Roland Taylor

00:38

@StefanoPalazzo I can never provide enough evidence for you.

This is a spiritual matter.

Stefano Palazzo

You're probably right

Roland Taylor

It's a matter of dropping a charade, so to speak.

I know full well it's not easy, but it's one you have to do.

Stefano Palazzo

All the arguments have been made over the last few thousand years, and I don't find any of them convincing

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo That's because there is nothing to argue.

Stefano Palazzo

So, are you up for some reading recommendations?

Roland Taylor

00:40

The only reason we're having an argument, is because one of us here refuses to accept something that the other knows.

Yes and no.

Let me put it this way...

I have tasted what the spirit world is like

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor well, I've just finished "The Greatest Show On Earth" by Richard Dawkins. He's probably the complete and utter antagonist to your story, and you'll agree with nothing he says. Which is why you should read it

Roland Taylor

and since it's just you and me here (for now) I feel bold enough to tell you...

Stefano Palazzo

if nothing else, it's very well written and entertaining

Roland Taylor

@StefanoPalazzo I heard of him, I'd rather not.

sorry for the constant pings... :P

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor this isn't like "the god delusion", it's really a 'popular biology' book

Roland Taylor

00:42

I know about that guy, and again, I don't need to read that ;).

Let me put it this way (again with this statement).

I have a one track mind.

All I care about is seeing other people come to know God through Jesus the way I have (better if possible).

That's it.

You could call me crazy...

Stefano Palazzo

is that like "Homo unius libri"?

Roland Taylor

explain?

Stefano Palazzo

I think it means something like "man of only one book"

Roland Taylor

well pretty much...

Stefano Palazzo

the rejection of the mediocre (as in earthly)

Roland Taylor

00:44

yes

Stefano Palazzo

well that's a bit sad isn't it

Roland Taylor

Actually, it's not...

I know right now you might feel like, you're in a better position, because your mind is "free"

Stefano Palazzo

there's this massively complex world for you to study and look at, most of which isn't touched on in the bible, and you don't want to see it?

Roland Taylor

but in reality, from the spiritual standpoint, your mind is blinded.

I do study the world....

as much as I can

but what good is it to know the whole world and lose your soul for an eternity?

Stefano Palazzo

you don't need to apply science to your personal philosophy in order to marvel at the beauty of evolution, for example. you don't even need to believe it happens

Roland Taylor

00:46

well let me put it to you this way, you don't need to reject evolution, to believe in God...

Stefano Palazzo

Just as I enjoy Christian art (a lot actually)

Roland Taylor

I personally hate it, but hey, you might just be too deep to see a way out of it

I am not concerned about all those things...

what about your eternal destiny?

You know, if you die, you won't just be "dead"...

Stefano Palazzo

well, as you know, my "destiny" is happening right now, here in this world

if nothing comes afterwards, it just makes "this life" more important and astonishing. I find that deeply satisfying

Roland Taylor

lol if flying to italy or wherever and shaking you to bits could make you see the world beyond our own, and turn to Jesus, I would do it.

@StefanoPalazzo you actually make me sad...

as in, really emotional.

and I am not joking.

Stefano Palazzo

it's actually important to understand this

many atheists are not sad that there is no afterlife or whatever

Roland Taylor

00:49

@StefanoPalazzo I know...

Stefano Palazzo

they're happy because they think that they're lives "mean something" because of it

Roland Taylor

And the Bible has made me well aware of that, apart from my knowing that by observation.

And us, people who know differently, are deeply saddened by that.

bibleprobe.com/nde.htm

take a look at those

and let me use a common atheist line

keep an open mind.

I haven't ever died and come back myself, but I came close enough...

Stefano Palazzo

this guy Hitchens responded to that line in a debate with: "but not so open that your brain falls out"

Roland Taylor

I've also been out of my body before, and yes, it is not some dream... it is real....

Stefano Palazzo

not saying that you do, but I thought it was funny :)

Roland Taylor

00:52

@StefanoPalazzo oh enough with those XD

lol

all of these cop outs

it's just you hardening your heart against accepting something that looks hard :s

trust me, you don't want to find out when its too late :(

Stefano Palazzo

I should have one of those "now playing" bots, the song I'm listening to is pretty ironic

Roland Taylor

e.e what would that be?

Stefano Palazzo

it's "nun komm der Heiden Heiland", which, if I can translate this properly, would be something like "now come, the heathen's saviour"

Roland Taylor

interesting...

Stefano Palazzo

mh. wikipedia says it's "Now come, Saviour of the gentiles"

Roland Taylor

00:55

Jesus is the heathen's saviour :)

that's not ironic if you ask me

I think... if you are willing to face it...

God is actually trying to get your attention

it's like He's banging His head against a wall

or on a keyboard :D

Stefano Palazzo

Next in my playlist, by pure coincidence I'm sure you will agree, is "Jesu Joy of man's desiring"

Roland Taylor

its like DAMMIT STEFANO JUST....

Stefano Palazzo

heh

Roland Taylor

lol

sometimes I wish God would share those times with me... but I'm actually glad He does not :)

Stefano Palazzo

well how about that, five songs farther is a song called "Godwhacker"

if it's a message, he's being clever ;-)

Roland Taylor

00:57

yes.. I am whacking you with God-ness :D

@StefanoPalazzo ya think ;)

btw you haven't ignored those nde's as nonsense have you?

Stefano Palazzo

well, it's not an atheistic song I suppose. Having some trouble to understand the lyrics

Roland Taylor

I'm willing to do (almost) anything to see you saved lol

Stefano Palazzo

@RolandTaylor not at all, but I think there's an earthly explanation for them

they're interesting in any case

Roland Taylor

._.

ajklfgolsbgl;sgjb;frbaufb;GVHG;HSF;GUIOHSO'IGH;SI

you just don't want this to be real

I pray Jesus will come to you Himself

right now even!

>>>>>>>

<<<<<<

e.e

Stefano Palazzo

well, that's nice

I think ;-)

Roland Taylor

01:01

it is...

honestly I wish He would

Stefano Palazzo

but you know he won't

it doesn't make sense to appear to someone like me, if he can appear to, lets say, All of the worlds scientists at the same time

yikes. It's 3AM now

I've really got to be off

well, a nice chat we had, and I'll be available when it continues.

until then, see ya! \o

Roland Taylor

cya :)

o/

omg

bibleprobe.com/elizabeth2002.htm

read that when you get back...

wow

M. Night Shyamalan

13:26

can anyone here tell me why bible is true and bhagavad gita isn't ?

Roland Taylor

14:20

@MNightShyamalan this isn't the kind of conversation we are having.

I suggest you watch, rather than get involved, for now. Okay?

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