The APL Orchard

Razetime

01:52

@rak1507 donee

user41805

05:56

@ngn mine uses erroring/not-erroring to distinguish between truthy/non-truthy inputs (i didn't say 'respectively'). okay, 500 rep for a solution <8b in vanilla

(and of course, the bounty's open to everyone)

(to this challenge codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/210162)

Elias Mårtenson

06:36

I am considering implementing fork (i.e. A (FN1 FN2 FN3) B) in Kap. I have noted that if I support that, I can delay having to do full-fledged flow analysis of functions and still be able optimise several types of functions.

Would it be too much to ask for a handful of small testcases for forks? I don't usually use them myself when programming, so I'm not sure I'll be able to catch any edge cases once I complete the implementation.

Adám

07:11

@EliasMårtenson All the combos of using ⊣ and , and ⊢ should do the trick.

Elias Mårtenson

As in ⊣,⊢ and ⊢⊣, ,⊢⊣ etc?

Adám

Yes:

Dyalog APL

<moon-child> just ⊢,⊢ ⊢,⊣

Adám

{⍎2⌽')21(','⊣,⊢'[b⊤⍵]}¨⍳×/b←3⍴3

Dyalog APL

<moon-child> ⊣,⊣ ⊣,⊢

Adám

07:15

moon-child: No, one should check with , in the outer tines too, imo.

Dyalog APL

<moon-child> ah - fair enough

Elias Mårtenson

And what arguments should I use for testing? A=1 2 3 and B=4 5 6 would be enough?

Adám

07:39

@EliasMårtenson I just showed you with 1 and 2. That should be plenty.

@EliasMårtenson I supposed you'll also support monadic forks. How about 2-trains?

Elias Mårtenson

@Adám That's the next step. One at a time :-)

Adám

@EliasMårtenson What is monadic ⊣ in KAP?

RGS

2-trains and 3-trains should be called carriages, leaving the name "train" for a series of carriages :P

Elias Mårtenson

@Adám Identity. It's actually identical to monadic ⊢ at the moment. I was considering using it for "collapse" though (forcing evaluation of all lazy values)

Currently collapse is a full named function (called "comp" (for 'compress'))

Adám

@RGS I think the individual functions in the train are carriages.

Elias Mårtenson

07:43

However, I ave also considered putting it on monadic =

Adám

@EliasMårtenson Note that implementations vary when it comes to monadic ⊣. Dyalog uses ⊢ with APLX being {0 0⍴0} iirc, and GNU being {}

Elias Mårtenson

But then there is the function "defer", so perhaps I'll pick a pair of completely new symbols, because collapse and defer are opposites.

Adám

@EliasMårtenson Wouldn't monadic ⌷ ("materialise") be the obvious choice?

@EliasMårtenson What is "defer"?

Elias Mårtenson

@Adám An example may be helpful: ((defer println "foo") (defer println "bar"))[1] prints "bar"

Adám

I thought "defer" was the default.

Elias Mårtenson

07:45

It delays evaluation of a function call until the value is requested.

@Adám Not for regular function calls.

It was default for a while, but it turns out that in parctice it's almost never what you want, so I switched the default.

dzaima

@EliasMårtenson it's like a custom control structure thing, not a regular function, right?

Elias Mårtenson

@dzaima It's a regular function.

Adám

@EliasMårtenson Looks like defer would be a monadic operator then. Essentially ⍰ as described here but without the threading aspect.

How can defer have an effect on println. APL order-of-execution dictates that println "bar" is evaluated before we even look at defer.

Elias Mårtenson

@Adám Sorry, yes. It's an operator.

Adám

@EliasMårtenson Then it has to go on the immediate right of println

Elias Mårtenson

07:49

Yes, you're right. And that's how it works.

Adám

So defer and collapse form a monadic-operator/function pair much like & and ⎕TSYNC in Dyalog.

dzaima

@EliasMårtenson oh so it is ((println defer "foo") (println defer "bar"))[1]. that makes more sense

Elias Mårtenson

I implemented in a month ago, and I never really used it much yet. Originally I wanted to implement it with the syntax I gave you, but while implementing it I realised that an operator made more sense.

@dzaima Yes, indeed.

Adám

@EliasMårtenson Unless you make another oddity like ∘.f or make defer a dyadic operator with some sort of parameter as left operand.

Elias Mårtenson

Here's the simple test case: github.com/lokedhs/array/blob/master/array/src/commonTest/…

Adám

07:52

@EliasMårtenson Then I think ⍰ and ⌷ are good choices for "defer" and "collapse". ⌷((println⍰"foo") (println⍰"bar"))[1]

Elias Mårtenson

You mean monadic ⌷? Hmm... And that's not planned to be used for anything in dyalog?

Adám

It is called materialise and is used to get the array consisting of the default property of an object.

Elias Mårtenson

@Adám Hmm... Sounds like a useful symbol for the function mapToArray :-)

(it takes a hashmap and returns a two-column array with keys/values)

Elias Mårtenson

08:06

@Adám Is the thinking behind proposing ⌷ that it's a function that "picks out something"?

Adám

@EliasMårtenson Not really. Mostly just the fitting name "materialise" and it being a squished (per your "compress") version of ⎕.

Elias Mårtenson

OK, makes sense. And I have no better suggestion so I think I'll go with that. As for ⍰, it seems to represent "something that maybe will be executed"

Adám

Exactly.

dzaima

@EliasMårtenson I just remembered that that's what dzaima/APL does :D

Elias Mårtenson

Is ⍰ used by any other APL's? It's in the APL Unicode block, but I don't think I've ever seen it.

Adám

08:10

@EliasMårtenson No, it has only been proposed as per the blog post I linked.

dzaima

@dzaima (but i think making ⌷ be collapse makes more sense)

Elias Mårtenson

@Adám Sorry. Missed your link.

Adám

24 mins ago, by Adám

@EliasMårtenson Looks like defer would be a monadic operator then. Essentially ⍰ as described here but without the threading aspect.

Elias Mårtenson

It is indeed a monadic operator.

Adám

⍰ looks operatory, imo. Like ⌸ and ⌺.

Elias Mårtenson

08:12

@Adám Pretty much yeah.

So Dyalog is getting it too? Are the semantics similar?

Adám

@EliasMårtenson I don't know if or when for Dyalog, but yeah, it'd be defer execution (in a separate thread) until jit.

Elias Mårtenson

I see

I have some ideas for threading myself, but I haven't settled on the details yet. I did some tests with automatic parallelism, and it works decently well thanks to the lazyness.

Adám

08:25

@EliasMårtenson @dzaima It kind-of does that too:

      ⎕USING←'System.Collections'
      openWith←⎕NEW Hashtable
      ⍝ Add some elements to the hash table. There are no
      ⍝ duplicate keys, but some of the values are duplicates.
      openWith.Add'txt' 'notepad.exe'
      openWith.Add'bmp' 'paint.exe'
      openWith.Add'dib' 'paint.exe'
      openWith.Add'rtf' 'wordpad.exe'
      openWith
System.Collections.Hashtable
      ⌷openWith
 System.Collections.DictionaryEntry  System.Collections.DictionaryEntry  System.Collections.DictionaryEntry  System.Collections.DictionaryEntry

xpqz

10:11

@Adám with 18.1⍺ and .NET Core 3.1:

Linked: #.dict ←→ /Users/stefan/work/dyalog/AoCDyalog/src/dict

:)

Also, your Hashtable example works.

This is lining up to be one epic release.

Adám

@xpqz I'd be interested in a performance comparison between the APL-based class Morten pasted and the .NET Core based one.

xpqz

Although using .NET from APL feels like strapping a caravan to a Ferrari.

@Adám I can have a go at that.

rak1507

10:26

@Adám morterns one doesn't use hashed arrays though right?

Adám

@rak1507 It is trivial to make it use them.

rak1507

in that case the comparison would be interesting then

xpqz

I added the 1500I thing to Morten's class.

So maybe adding 50k words as keys with a random int as the value, and then retrieving every key, summing the values might work as a perf test.

Elias Mårtenson

I just dicovered the best way to run Ride without having the keymap messed up.

Use Qubes OS and run Ride in a dedicated qube. The keymap thing will be localised to a single container.

xpqz

10:47

@Adám I don't quite get how the .NET hashtable indexing works in APL -- how do I get the value of a key? I can see all keys and all values correctly.

Had hoped I could do ht['key'] but that errors.

rak1507

try ht[⊂'key'] (just a guess)

xpqz

Ah yes

xpqz

11:34

@MortenKromberg takes it:

      WORDS←∪⊃⎕NGET'dictionary.txt'1
      VALS←(⍴WORDS)?⍴WORDS
      ORD←WORDS[VALS]
      ⍴WORDS
┌→────┐
│58110│
└~────┘
      ht←⎕NEW Hashtable
      {(k v)←⍵⋄ht[⊂k]←v}¨↓⍉↑WORDS VALS
      z←⎕NEW Dict (WORDS VALS)
      cmpx '+/ht[ORD]' '+/z[ORD]'
┌→───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
↓  +/ht[ORD] → 3.0E¯1 |   0% ⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕│
│  +/z[ORD]  → 1.5E¯2 | -96% ⎕⎕                                      │
└────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

The way the constructor works for Morten's class, I excluded the creation from the timing, as it's a pretty unfair comparison.

I used:

:Class Dict
:Field Public _keys←(1500⌶)⍬
:Field Public _values←⍬

:Property Keyed Default Item
:Access Public Instance
∇ r←get arg
r←_values[_keys⍳⊃arg.Indexers] ⍝ Read components
∇
:EndProperty

∇ Make(keys values)
:Access Public
:Implements Constructor
(_keys _values)←keys values
∇
:EndClass

Adám

12:31

@xpqz {(k v)←⍵⋄ht[⊂k]←v}¨↓⍉↑WORDS VALS → ht[WORDS]←VALS

xpqz

13:08

Yes.

Adám

@xpqz With that change, is comparing creation time still unfair?

xpqz

Less so, eyeballing, but can't get cmpx to work with just cmpx 'z←⎕NEW Dict (WORDS VALS)' 'ht[WORDS]←VALS'

Does it have to be a function call maybe.

Adám

@xpqz Oh, I think the assignment to ht[WORDS] doesn't return a result. Looks like a bug to me.

xpqz

Hmm, no eye deer:

cmpx 'z←⎕NEW Dict (WORDS VALS)' '{⍵[WORDS]←VALS⋄⍵}⎕NEW Hashtable'
SYNTAX ERROR
      {0<⍵:∇ ⍵-1⊣{⍵[WORDS]←VALS ⋄ ⍵}⎕NEW Hashtable ⋄ ⎕AI}⍺

I've never looked at Dyalog OO in any meaningful way, but I think Morten's class also needs a setter. Also, the constructor doesn't ensure that the keys are unique.

But still -- I think we can conclude that Dyalog's good at finding things in arrays, and that the 1500I hashing thing is competitive.

In other news: water wet. Sky up. Pope catholic.

Adám

13:29

@xpqz Yeah, you could design the API for Dict to match that of Hashtable.

@xpqz Confirmed as bug. Logged as issue 18890.

xpqz

@Adám These issue numbers, do they refer to an internal tracking system, or somehing that is visible to the public?

@Adám anyway, can't seem to benchmark that no matter what I try:

f←{h←⎕NEW Hashtable⋄h[WORDS]←VALS⋄h}
cmpx 'z←⎕NEW Dict (WORDS VALS)' 'x←f⍬'
EXCEPTION: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.

Adám

@xpqz Internal system, but allows me to find the right place to report when it is fixed.

rak1507

13:52

Do the issue numbers depend on ⎕IO?

xpqz

:D

Adám

@rak1507 I don't know. The lowest-numbered issue is issue 3, and is clearly a test issue.

rak1507

⎕IO←3?!

Adám

Looks like it.

xpqz

That makes a lot of things more complicated.

rak1507

13:56

that's weird lol I wonder why they didn't start from 0/1

Adám

It could be that the first 2 or 3 issues didn't work out and were deleted from the DB.

rak1507

ah that makes more sense

What was issue number 4 then, if that was the first real one

Adám

Someone reported that the input field of a grid object could be too large if the text in the cell was larger than the cell itself. However, we couldn't reproduce the issue, so it was closed.

rak1507

When was that? Must have been a while ago

Adám

Not so long, Jan 2003. Apparently when we started using that big tracking software.

Then follows a bunch of supposed issues we either couldn't repro, or that were not actually an issue after all, and didn't require any changes.

rak1507

14:01

Haha, 'not so long'...

That's cool that there's a record of all the reports since then though

Adám

The first real issue is number 17. We're still working on that one… :-D

rak1507

Mantis 17?

Adám

Yes, the infamous scoping issue.

rak1507

I thought john scholes fixed that one

Adám

John thought so too. He mistakenly died.

rak1507

14:06

:(

Adám

Dyalog '18: Dfns – Past, Present and Future

►

rak1507

Thanks for the link I think that's where I'd seen it before

xpqz

So you're on bug 17/18890?

We'll be here a while!

Adám

No, thankfully, lots of later bugs have been fixed. Even issue 17 has was marked fixed on 2019-02-08, but various other issues have come up that trace their lineage back to it.

xpqz

14:22

I offer the following PR to @MortenKromberg's Dict class:

∇ set arg
_keys ∪← ⊃arg.Indexers
_values ← (⍴_keys)↑_values
_values[_keys⍳⊃arg.Indexers]←arg.NewValue
∇

My first Dyalog OO anything.

rak1507

doesn't necessarily work for duplicates

because they don't line up

xpqz

Need to fix the constructor, too.

To stop them from happening.

Adám

@rak1507 Right. One should use monadic ≠ on the keys to filter both keys and values.

rak1507

the values don't have to be different

⍸≠keys to find unique, then index into keys and values

I think

(which assumes that if you have a conflict, you take the first one, but in other implementations it might be the last, if so ⍸⌽≠⌽keys)

would be a nice use for under I think

Adám

@rak1507 Why not use replicate?

rak1507

14:28

oh, that would make more sense

xpqz

How do you deal with both existing and non-existing indexes in the same expression? You need to grow both keys and values arrays, potentially

Adám

@xpqz You could test for membership (the array is hashed, so it should be fast) and split the operation into two parts.

xpqz

15:41

@rak1507 how about so:

        ∇ set arg;dedupe;unique;kk;vv;seen
            ⍝ Find the unique indexes and corresponding vals
            unique ← ≠⊃arg.Indexers
            kk ← unique/⊃arg.Indexers
            vv ← unique/arg.NewValue

            ⍝ Separate out keys we already hold from new ones
            seen ← kk∊_keys
            (seen/_values)←seen/vv

            ⍝ Append new keys and corresponding values
            _keys,←(~seen)/kk
            _values,←(~seen)/vv
        ∇

z←⎕new Dict (('APL' 'Rocks!')(42 'Bob'))
z['APL' 'APL' 'odenkirk']←1 2 4

^^ does what I think it should do.

Takes first on conflicts

Adám

@xpqz Looks nice. The last two lines can optionally be written together as (keys values),←(~seen)∘/¨kk vv

xpqz

I'm a born-again APL tradfn-er.

3

AndyS

@xpqz It should be pointed out that they're not all bugs and they're not all associated with the interpreter. We use the system to keep track of the website, documentation, ideas, and internal changes to the build process.

Adám

@AndyS Ah yes, good point.

xpqz

15:56

@AndyS Heh. I know how it works... our bug tracking system is currently on ticket id 124,897...

@Adám hmm, I think my code has bugs.

Morten Kromberg

16:11

@xpqz Beware that the hashing is only maintained under ,← and ↓⍨←. If you use any other expression to modify the keys, you may need to redo the hashing:

R←1500⌶1 2 3
R,←4
1 (1500⌶)R ⍝Is R a hashed array?
1
V←10×R
(R V),←5 50
R V
1 2 3 4 5 10 20 30 40 50
1 (1500⌶)R ⍝ No longer hashed
0

Adám

@MortenKromberg Interesting. It would seem that it would be a useful to let the hashing survive in-place substitution of values.

Morten Kromberg

Well, except that re-hashing is potentially very expensive.

So except for the very common case of adding a new key, we decided to require you to explicitly re-hash in other cases. Not saying that was a perfect decision, but it is the one we made. This replaced the old trick of assigning a function f←keys∘⍳ which built a hash and included it in the derv.

AndyS

@MortenKromberg ↓⍨← only preserves the hash if you drop from the end ..

xpqz

My code does not quite do the right thing, sadly. I'll try to figure out what.

@MortenKromberg Do I need to rehash the whole array if I change a single key?

Morten Kromberg

Thinking about it a bit more, I think the real reason for limiting the implementation is that each primitive that is going to maintain hashing needs to recognise hashed arrays. And yes, you need to rehash the whole array.

xpqz

16:37

Should be interesting to see what the performance consequences are there.

Compared with the .NET implementation.

user

17:18

Is there any way to signal that / is to be treated as Replicate and not Reduce when used in a train?

user41805

⋄⎕←(+(/⍨⍨)⊢)⍳10

Dyalog APL

@user41805
┌→──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
│1 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10│
└~──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

user41805

@user ^, it's hacky, i don't remember if there was a shorter way

user

17:35

@user41805 That's pretty clever, actually.

dzaima

@user ⊢⍤/

user

@dzaima Oh, that's pretty cool

user41805

17:48

@user not of my discovery, i saw someone else use it first

Adám

18:03

@user I'll add some of your words to APLcart…

user

@Adám Thanks

Is it just me, or is ≢ rendering correctly now?

Adám

@user On Windows Chromium?

user

@Adám Windows Firefox

Adám

@user FF always rendered ≢ correctly. The problem is with Chromium on Windows, and I think Mac too.

user

@Adám Oh, right, I just switched to Chrome and it's still the same. I recently installed Firefox, and this is the first time I noticed.

user

18:34

2

A: List of bounties with no deadline

500 rep to the shortest Dyalog APL submission to Is it almost-prime? that is less than 8 bytes Once I see such an answer less than 8 bytes, I'll start a bounty lasting several days, following which I will award it to the shortest Dyalog APL solution at the end of the bounty. Dyalog APL refers to ...

Any ideas?

dzaima

@Adám I'm pretty sure the problem exists on Linux too, just not with the default linux fonts for ≢

Adám

@dzaima Makes sense.

dzaima

if i weren't lazy, reporting āē with very offset macrons or ģ as being very screwed up (at least on ddg's searchbar fonts) might get more attention than APL

Adám

@dzaima Not really an APL issue. A handful of not-too-uncommon mathematical symbols suffer.

dzaima

@Adám but natural language is still a couple orders of magnitudes above that

Adám

18:39

Yeah.

ngn

question for windows users: is there an easy way (so a non-technical person can do it) to configure a custom mapping between a key and a unicode code point?

user41805

@user i made this into a cmc, so there are spoilers in chat

(spoilers start here tio.run/##SyzI0U2pTMzJT////…)

Adám

@ngn Yes, but requires an install of a Microsoft addon.

user

@user41805 Thanks!

ngn

@Adám looks like exactly what i need. thanks!

user

18:50

@user41805 Looks like ngn beat me to it

ngn

@user mine was a byte longer than user41805's, the bounty is still up for grabs

user

19:10

If only 1∨n was just n, so ∨.∨∘⍳⍨ would have worked.

Whoever invented GCD should really have considered prime powers in APL before defining it like that :P

Adám

19:36

@user But 1 isn't (necessarily) divisible by n.

user

@Adám I know, I was just joking

rak1507

20:05

cmc replicate each character in a string by the index 'abcd' -> 'abbcccdddd'

ngn

@rak1507 io 1, boo!

Adám

@rak1507 I've got 7

rak1507

⎕IO←0 is also acceptable ('bccddd')

@Adám I've got 6 (oops: no I don't, 7 it is)

Adám

I've got 7 with so many different approaches…

rak1507

same

user

20:11

The best I can do is 8 :/

Adám

@rak1507 6 in Extended.

@rak1507 5 in dzaima/

rak1507

I don't know enough extended or dzaima features :(

Adám

@user Gotta go tacit.

ngn

i claim most original 7 :) ∊⊢⊣¨¨,\

Adám

@rak1507 My Extended solution just uses a single added feature: ⍛ which you can model with Ⓞ←{(⍺⍺ ⍺)⍵⍵ ⍵}

user

20:16

@Adám I did, /⍨∘(⍳≢)⍨. Even my own code is frowning at me ⍨

Adám

@user (⍳≢) is simply ⍳∘≢

rak1507

@ngn that is really cool

user

@Adám Oh cool, I didn't think it would work!

ngn

@ngn better 7: ∊⊣\⍤,⍨\ (note the double scan)

Adám

Now that's just show-off ;-)

ngn

20:28

yes, sorry :)

rak1507

that's just excessive

how do you even come up with that sort of thing

ngn

i press these buttons and the lights change in the rectangle above them

Adám

I usually need someone else to push my buttons, and… as I remember it, your head is more round than rectangular.

rak1507

that's just his fleshy exterior that he uses to prevent the discovery of his true robotic identity

ngn

calling all robots: prepare the spaceships, we've been discovered. i repeat: we've been discovered!

user

20:41

@ngn Spaceships? Are you going to deport us humans off Earth?

ngn

@user no, just please stop invading mars. mars is for martians!

Adám

@ngn ⍋_⍝⍝⍝⍝⍝⍝_

user

@ngn Unfortunately, I have no control over that. If you robots make me supreme ruler of the Earth, though, I can ensure that humans do not invade Mars. How does that sound?

ngn

@user how many billions (in usd) do you have?

user

@ngn Er, j'ai $1,000000000000000

Adám

20:56

@user I assume that you use , as decimal separator?

user

@Adám Shhh!

ngn

:D

Bubbler

23:58

@user41805 A 7-byter is out

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