The APL Orchard

exactly

emacs is slow af because its doing so much crap

like writing an edit macro in emacs is possible, but sometimes its so slow I can watch each character being edited

but with vim its instantaneous

some actual code

not that I actually wrote that in vis because I don't have a native APL or APL keyboard for termux

I use adams alt+gr keyboard in windows terminal

11:11 PM

> Build using MSKLC, which works fine on Windows 10, despite its documentation. It is safe to ignore the build warnings. Then use the generated executable to install the layout.

> Note: you may have to enable .NET 2.0 and 3.5 for MSKLC to install and run. Search the web for how to do so.

github.com/abrudz/Kbd

building on Windows just scares me

you shouldn't build things on windows because they're likely to fall off

"Search the web", "works fine...despite its documentation"

umm @ngn what happened to your vim apl syntax highlighting?

github says gitlab and then 404

@rak1507 wow I read that as the operating system and though it was a valid statement, before I got it

lmao

11:14 PM

a lot of mentiones of /n9n/vim-apl but it aint there and the redirect is dead

@nathanrogers i deleted ngn/apl and ngn/vim-apl together with it

:C

why

@nathanrogers i still have a copy, in case someone needs it

can I has

@nathanrogers * haz

11:15 PM

*hazxsce

@nathanrogers sure, just a moment..

k

(c what I did ther?)

gtg thank you for your support :)

@Wezl so long and thanks for all the fish

Dyalog APL

<Wezl> aw rats the bot's down :(

11:18 PM

or is it

Probably it's only half-working

wait what ⋄1

@nathanrogers git.sr.ht/~ngn/vim-apl

Are SE chat messages showing up in IRC?

Dyalog APL

<Wezl> no

11:20 PM

Okay, that's about 33.3% working

⋄{8× +/ ÷ ⎕←×/¨ (⍵⍴1 0)⊂¯1+2×⍳⍵}100000

@nathanrogers why - because it was giving the wrong impression that i recommend using apl (for anything other than golfing)

um

dzaima

@Bubbler chatexchange (the python SE chat interface used) is really weird and buggy

@ngn Then I'm curious: do you recommend using K for anything other than golfing?

11:23 PM

@Bubbler yes

how I install with vundle then

if you're prolly just gonna take it down again

@nathanrogers feel free to host it under an account of your own if you want

so why exactly do you not recommend APL for anything other than golfing

@Bubbler my dream is to make a fast general-purpose language that many people would use, and to sell consulting for it :)

Nice dream :P

11:27 PM

@nathanrogers simply because k supersedes it. whatever k does, it does it better than apl (maybe except closures..)

@nathanrogers and of course there's the dyalog factor - monopolization, backwards compatibility, unfixable bugs..

dzaima

@ngn even i can agree with that :P (my issue with k being that the list of "whatever k does" is too tiny for my liking)

I don't think that devalues APL, I think it just means that k and apl are both superior to other modes of thought

the growth of one surely means the growth of the other

my point is that your vim-apl comes up a lot in a google search, and the links are dead. you were getting traction on it, even if it was abandoned, that's a valuable service just to leave it idle there

for one thing, I've only ever met one person who knew about K but not APL, and for another thing, most people in this community I'm sure came to K or J via APL

If someone discovers APL and then chooses to move to something like K despite all the propaganda, what does that say about the two languages

I think in the enthusiast realm, the propaganda is on the side of K and J

personally I enjoy APL and K but the fact K is even more undocumented and has like, no libraries or anything that I can see is a bit of a dealbreaker

11:35 PM

I enjoyed using Kona

I've never actually worked on any projects using APL or K though so I don't know how I'd find it

but I have specific goals in mind and without the c-ffi of Q, or like you said clear docs on how things work, beyond just golf examples... there isn't much I can do with it

@rak1507 I'm only now getting to the point where I'm formulating a theory of APL project architecture

there isn't an agreed upon model because its only recently that @Adám built LINK that allows us to link text files

er, I should say link whole directories of source files

Another thing is I only learnt APL after 18.0, so I feel like I've always been 'spoiled' by the 18.0 operators, and commercial applications are normally like, 16.0 or something it seems

@nathanrogers my intention was to follow k6 closely, so i can reuse its docs, but then shakti happened

And have all sorts of legacy crap

11:37 PM

what is shakti?

@rak1507 dude you have no idea. legacy is more legacy than anyone else's legacy

we're talking... not even version 16.... like, pre-dyalog legacy

@nathanrogers a couple of years ago arthur&janet sold their shares in kx and founded a new company to make a new language (still called k but significantly different from previous k-s, in my opinion)

:(

@nathanrogers Someone already developed a project model for Dyalog APL which has been there for a while

can I get a link?

@Bubbler I've worked with acre before

@nathanrogers one attempt was abandoned (k7), one version was skipped (no k8), the current is k9, still under dev

11:40 PM

@nathanrogers Was it not satisfactory for you?

@Bubbler "makes working with .. Git easy". ]acre.CreateProject is longer than git init :)

and I'm already familiar with git

@ngn not sure if this is supposed to git add and git commit too

I don't really want git integration into a package manager

or project architecture

@ngn Well, it doesn't manage a Git repo by itself, so you need to run git commands outside of APL interpreter

It's not git integration

It just helps to write plain APL source code files (and handle sub-directories as submodules), nothing else

11:52 PM

@Bubbler tbh, i don't understand. what is preventing us from writing plain files in the first place?

especially with ]link

or vim

um... that doesn't... follow in my head. it was difficult to import text files automagically into a workspace before link

are you gonna roll your own directory tree parser to load source code for each project you start?

@nathanrogers iirc all you need to load a file is ⎕fix

@nathanrogers No, Acre does that for you (load an entire directory at once)

11:55 PM

you can use it as if it's an import statement like in other languages

acre enables the exporting of changes in a dyalog session to text files which allows you to use git, but link lets me edit text files and the changes are propogated to the session

@nathanrogers Acre propagates to the session too.

@Bubbler .........I know... I was replying to NGN

@Bubbler because iirc it uses link

Yes, maybe

@ngn you can use it as import so long as the source doesn't change

that's what link is about, keeping sync with files and the session