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00:07
there should be a "common native Japanese speech errors"
question on this site
00:19
@taylor Oh man, I definitely read that it had no vowels, not only haha!
 
1 hour later…
01:42
hey did u know you can type this C゛
notice the  ゛
C゜
02:00
℃ ( ゜Д゜) C゜How did you type it? I had to convert it from "handakuten." Ah, are you using a JIS keyboard?
nope, I just type はんだくてん and convert
same for ほし it can convert to ★
i just learned this 10 minutes ago, after having typed jap for maybe 6 years now
ic. I wonder if Japanese people are fond of pictograms more than those who use latin alphabet.
i would say so
I read that orthography can be a "formative agent" in spoken language
@LucasTizma I think people just label as how they call her in real life, either actually or internally. Or use her full name. There can be several ways to name her: 1. {place name}の伯母さん (maybe if she has the same family name but lives apart) 2. {family name}の伯母さん (if it's different from your family name) 3. {first name}伯母さん
02:21
i wonder if you were to control for the right factors, if you had two groups, 1 users of complex orthography like kanji and chineese, and 2 simple scripts like latin and then tasked them with having to construct a visual display of some novel information,
if there would be a significant difference in the groups
so like one conclusion would be like "people who use more complex orthographies tend to cluster lines and geometric figures closer together in the visual presentation and recording of information"
Interesting. "The phonology of Japanese": "The graphemic system often reflects the phonemic one, and vice versa, since phonology in turn can be influenced by the writing system, or, to put it in Suzuki's words (Suzuki, 1977), writing can become a formative agent of the language. ... Suzuki, Takao (1977) 'Writing is not language, or is it?'"
there ya go
Timothy Vance in his The Sounds of Japanese refers to kana and kanji every chance possible
half the book is about correspondance between sound and character
despite being titled "the sounds" of japanese
oh Labrunes new book
r u reading it
02:38
Nope, just googled "formative agent" and Google Books presented me with the exact page with the quote.
But I'm about to add the books you mentioned to my reading list.
well I wouldn't put Vance's Sounds of Japanese on high priority
hes got an older one, Introduction Japanese Phonology 1987
but its out of print
Labrunes book is nicely detailed and doesn't omit technical terms for the sake of conceptual simplicity like Vances
and the difference in detail is like this; Vance will say "X is typically Y" whereas Labrune will say "89% of X is Y"
=D oh really then I'm sure I'd like Labrune's better.
i would say Labrunes book is for a ling majors, and Vances book for technical-hungry JSL leaners
03:29
Let me see... I'm a technical-hungry native Japanese speaker
http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/
I hope this site will evolve to tell me what kind of accent I have. My partner tells me mine is a robotic accent. Flat and monotonic.
03:41
@ento you aren't the droids we're looking for?
lol!
I see what you did there
how're you doing this evening, silvermaple?
not too bad :)
I had a day off, so I didn't do much except game some and watch some netflix ^^
04:01
I started playing Fallout 3 last night... have to say I was rather disappointed
ah, that sucks
play it with mods
i thought it sucked until I played it with FOOK
I finally made it into Hell mode in D3
04:23
So, today I say a little post, and it had written on it "WARNING WATER SUPPLY" or something like that. Only it was a pretty narrow post, and the words were printed vertically, one word per line. It honestly took me a while to realize that it wasn't "SUPPLY WATER WARNING" as it would have been if it was supposed to be read right-to-left....
I'm not the droid you're looking for. /me hopes she's mimicked the master closely enough.
(gotta run, time for work)
time for me to leave too, but for me it's to bed
have fun at work ento :)
 
8 hours later…
12:17
The text for my Sapporo RubyKaigi talk "Japanese - a programmer's language" is complete. I just need to add images. Would anyone be interested in reading it to see that there's no major blunders in what I've said?
how long is it
@AndrewGrimm I'd read it
@taylor My slot is 30 minutes including questions.
@gibbon Thanks.
sure
12:31
whats monkeypatching
Programming terminology (being used outside of programming here).
It means modifying the functionality of existing objects.
Am I looking at the correct slides? This looks very incomplete
kore o kudsai の ●(Literally "this please")
its a parenthetical bullet point
@gibbon I haven't added images to it yet, and I'm hoping it'll get translated into Japanese as well.
Who is the audience anyway?
12:37
thats like a paradox
@taylor That's why I'm planning to use the picture "The Treachery of Images" in slide 2.
@gibbon People who use the programming language Ruby.
Ruby was created in Japan, and a fair proportion of the open source work on it happens in Japan.
learn japanese in 5 minutes a day?
@AndrewGrimm Lots of non-Japanese speakers go all the way to Sapporo for this Ruby convention?
@taylor 5 minutes total.
ah 5 minutes total, yes yes that makes sense now lolz
its like those "learn java in 24 hours!" books
12:44
@gibbon Good question. I'll try to get an approximate figure.
well i like the ease of grammar title
seems japanese has a rep for being a hard language to learn
im not convinced though
that in principle, any one language is harder to learn then any other
looks fine to me
why do have a slide on 和製語
I wanted to talk about interesting tidbits about Japanese. Partially because it's not enough to say that Japanese is easy, I also want to say that it's interesting.
How does the presentation support the title of the talk? A programmer's language? What?
yeah i was wondering that too
programming in japanese
And partially because I want this to be a talk that someone who has decided not to learn Japanese would still be interested in.
@gibbon Haven't found hard stats, but I'd say something like 50-100 most years (this one will be smaller). Check out the map in ironshay.com/post/…
Thanks for your feedback about the title.
12:56
why dont you mention the unique problems of tokenizing japanese text
that seems like it would interest programmers
well not unique to japanese, but different from english where tokenizing is almost trivial
I've never tried tokenizing Japanese text.
well theres no space characters in jap
its a programming problem related to japanese though
seems perfect to mention in the slides
Earlier on this year, I gave a talk about Japanese using lots of programming concepts. However, that was for a one hour slot, not a half hour slot. slideshare.net/agrimm/how-to-talk-like-a-ge1sha
13:23
日本語は分かち書きをしない言語であり、かつ動詞などが活用するため、
単語を同定して原形を求める処理である形態素解析は、より高度な自然言語処理の基礎をなすきわめて重要な処理である。
wait you're a programmer working in japan but you've never had to deal with japanese text?
13:39
@taylor I use a programming language created in Japan, but I work in Sydney. I've only spent a total of one month in Japan - one week in July of last year, and three weeks in February.
oh lolz i thought u lived in japan for some reason
Current itinerary for my upcoming trip gist.github.com/3154209
this question has been bothering me though
i bought this book amazon.ca/Foundations-Statistical-Natural-Language-Processing/… and had about 2 sentences on tokenized the text of nonEnglish langauges
basically so say that they wont be covering it!
i have angry face now
Taylor, Gibbon, thanks for your feedback. Heading to bed now.
14:45
morning all
I feel like I want to edit question titles a lot...I want them to be searchable and informative, but I don't want to just commandeer everyone's question titles. And not just searchable for search engine hits, but to be able to be useful for a wider audience. (i.e. not just "what does this XY mean from this sentence?", but "what does it mean when X and Y are used together like this?".)
15:02
have a specific one in mind
Please help me understand this grammar: ようになるだけではなくて
I think think more like "V+ようになる + だけではなくて
but that seems nit-picky to me
Or that it could seem that way
the phrase "Please help me understand this grammar" doesn't add anything to the title
i guess in general some keywords in the title could be put in the tags
i always wonder if the questions should have ? at the end
seems silly to add ?, but kinda awkward to see a question without it
i bet some questions are closed owing to a bad title, not because of the contents of the question
15:45
Yeah
I think a lot of people drop the ?, and I wouldn't necessarily edit it in if that's the only thing wrong with it, but if I'm in the edit box anyway I add one...unless the title isn't phrased as a question...
And I don't like adding "what does _________ mean?" in every question, because there are so many, but I really don't know a better alternative
______ってどういう意味ですか
lolz
16:06
I wonder how dark red the "Chrome needs an upgrade" arrow will get if I just leave it another week
16:25
hey everyone
Does anyone know where I can find an advanced kanji learning resource?
@phoenixheart6 What do you mean?
well, I used to learn my kanji through practice textbooks and stuff
I mean... there's always a Nelson's Dictionary if you just want breadth. There's also the Japanese character dictionaries if you're looking for depth. Or do you just mean "How to study Kanji beyond the first 6 grades?"
Are you past the first 1000 or so? the ones that are covered by the Bojinsha Kanji books?
I'd say the first 500
16:30
this looks like more of what I'm looking for
thanks!
There's a Basic Kanji I and II as well, I'd snag the kanji list from the publisher's website to make sure you know them, but it's not too special
The Intermediate I and II books are pretty good for that level
yea, for some reason all I've been able to find have been beginner books
<tease>It IS in our resources list</tease>
resources listって何?
Yeah, there are alot of "here's all of the jouyoukanji, with a short sentence and 3 compounds each"
18
Q: Resources for learning Japanese

ジョンAfter a discussion with jkerian in chat about how Chinese Language and Usage handle resource information, we decided to try it here. The idea is to provide a go-to for those interested in resources while the discussion about whether to allow resource questions is ongoing. As it grows in size, we ...

16:33
ah cool :)
I think it's our most-viewed page on the site... glad we finally decided to actually start it
yea, over 1k views
kuromoji isnt in the morphological analyzers?
@taylor been meaning to ask, taylor... is your background more linguistically oriented? (computationally or otherwise?)
@taylor and feel free to add it, just try to keep the description short :)
i was a math major and now i am learning to program to get a job
theres also this speech recognition program for japanese julius.sourceforge.jp/en_index.php?q=index-en.html#whats_new
i would add it but i don't know much about it
hhmm how about 日本語 resources like nltk.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/book-jp/ch12.html
Python による日本語自然言語処理
websites or data and analysis?
16:48
Probably data and analysis
basically D&A is the category both for linguists who need corpus/etc... and programmers who are looking for character/speech-recognition and parsers...
I've sortof been ignoring that section, actually... since although I'm a professional programmer (with published research in Japanese OCR)... I pretty much have completely seperated my "Japanese study" from my "programming" at this point
whats ocr
Optical Character Recognition... scanning a character as a picture and getting text
These days I work with incredibly finicky devices that the rest of you take for granted :)
like what
hard disks, I'm a firmware engineer for HGST (formerly Hitachi)
Thought you said WD earlier..
17:02
It's technically "HGST, a WD company"
We're operating as a wholly owned subsidiary at the moment... at MOFCOM's insistence
It's slightly weird... as we are definitely competitors in the mobile space. (We don't really compete in desktop anymore... sold that to Toshiba. And they don't really compete in enterprise)
17:22
@ento Hm. Seems not so straightforward then. :)
 
2 hours later…
18:57
@jkerian I am using boost libraries on my project, and it is amazing. Thanks a ton!
Whatcha makin?
@ChrisHarris They are incredibly handy :)
 
2 hours later…
21:02
@jkerian tokenizing has never been easier. It's like one line of code!
bychance are you talking about japanese?
@taylor Probably not, I introduced Chris to the boost libraries a few days back.
Among other things, they make string tokenization MUCH easier... both for simple stuff (boost.tokenizer) and rather complex tasks(boost.spirit)
@gibbon It's a seeeecret... apparently
 
1 hour later…
22:18
looks like I'm up for another night of 麻雀
23:07
im trying to edit the tag for homonyms
but i cant think of japanese one
of a Japanese homonym? I suppose you want to reject choices like はし where the Tokyo dialect distinguishes them with tone?
wonders if the definition of a homograph accomodates kanji
yeah, it would be wrong to clamin true homophony in 橋 and はし
hmm... not in that case :)
橋 and 箸
はし and 橋 could easily be the "Identical words" category :)
or are they synonyms with different spellings but the same pronunciation?
that diagram scares me
It works pretty well with languages that only have one set of characters (or a superfluous second onelike capital letters)
But I'm curious what happens when you throw kanji in there
you know... you would really expect the 同綴異義語 article to shed some light on this...
speaking of which...
同音異義語(どうおんいぎご)とは、発音は同じだが、互いに区別される語。 具体例 日本語においては、漢語の中に頻繁に見ることが出来る。 *いどう(移動、異同、異動など) *かんし(監視、看視、環視、冠詞、諫止、漢詩など) *きかん(期間、機関、器官、気管、帰還、基幹、季刊など) *こうしょう(交渉、高尚、公証、考証、口承、鉱床、厚相、哄笑、工廠など多数) *こうせい(更生、校正、恒星、更正、構成、公正、攻勢、後世、抗生など多数) *さんか(参加、賛歌、酸化、傘下、惨禍など) *しこう(嗜好、思考、志向、至高、歯垢など) *しんせい(申請、新生、親政、神聖、心性、真正、新星など) *せいか(製菓、成果、盛夏、生家、聖歌、生花、正貨、聖火など) など、数え上げればきりがない。へんざい(偏在、遍在)のように、ほぼ正反対の意味の言葉が同音になる場合もある。 中国語を表す文字である漢字を日本語に導入した事で、音に違いは無くとも意味を区別出来るさまざまな表記の組み合わせが生まれた。中国語には声調の別(四声)があり、また開音節と閉音節が存在するのに対し、日本語には声調により発音を区別する概念があまり存在せず、開音節しか存在しない。結果、中国語においては発音が異なる漢字に対し、日本語においては同じ発音を割り当てざるを得ない事例が頻発し、同音異義語の数も莫大なものになった。「私立」を「わ...
23:17
i think the japanese would naturally exploit kanji in its ability to dispel homonyms
Given that the japanese word is "same-sound different-meaning word"... I think we're safe calling those "homonyms"
Basically... that exact chart doesn't really work in Japanese... but the equivalent term seems to be 同音異義語, and they give examples at that page
i guess because of kanji the only homonyms would be in hiragana
十分 is almost a homonym
a kanji homonym would be more dramatic then one in hiragana
I'm not sure it makes much sense to use the english term 'homonym' here, particularly if you restrict it to its English definition. It seems more appropriate to translate to the Japanese concept of 同音異義語, and list examples of those.
"unnecessarily restrictive" is the phrase that comes to mind
nah the japanese wiki says 発音は同じだが、互いに区別される語
distinct words
homonyms are pairs of words
its more like "same sound, different meaning, different words"
23:32
hmm... I doubt homonyms are limited to pairs...
yeah i bet your right about that
I don't really see why you're objecting based on "distinct words"... "to tire" and "car tire" sound pretty much like that fits 同音異義語 perfectly.
although it's true... definitionally, 同音異義語 is obviously homophone, not homonym
It looks like differences in stress (tone for Japanese) are definetely enough to make it not a homonym, though: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronym_(linguistics)
ah no, sorry, im trying to say something else
いどう(移動、異同、異動など) are 3 homonyms
as in いどう いどう いどう
but (移動、異同、異動) are not 3 homonyms
(assuming the tonal pattern is the same?)
yeah
yup sorry, disregarding tone
cuz your right that is required for true homophony, and hence true homonymy
23:44
I suppose you could say that... but as I mentioned, I dont' think the concepts map very well between languages
Basically, Japanese needs two categories every time spelling enters into it.
the point is that, disregarding tone for a moment, japanese is abundant with hiragana homonyms (same writting, same sound), but the advantage of kanji is that it provides enough extra information to dispel the problem of similarity in writting unique to kana
yeah your write, the notion of homonymy is relative to which script is being used, the kana or the kanji
thats why im saying "homonymy in hiragana" and "homonymy in kanji"
the examples on the wiki page all seem to be homonymy in hiragana

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