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02:00 - 18:0022:00 - 00:00

02:56
@Chocolate I finally understand after re-reading the whole passage. As you mentioned, there were in fact 2 different people. 有希 gives the card, the 写真たて was by another person (舞ちゃん)
The two sentences really had little relation to each other.
 
3 hours later…
05:48
hi:)
Hi
How are you?
Kind of bored right now. For some reason I cannot focus on anything productive
Just whiling away time staring into space and reading random stuff haha
05:50
I was talking to my friends Japanese exchange student today. :)
日本語で
ちょっとだけ^^
06:02
What are you meant to be doing, @Flaw?
Ideally, studying Japanese or physics.
Actually I've been "on vacation" for the longest time of my life now. I'm just waiting for school to start in a few weeks.
Ah, cool. :)
You should work on speaking.
@Flaw: Because of your post, I don't think I'll ever forget what どことなくつかみどころがなく means.
Wow..
or I might get it confused with rock climbing..
06:13
Was it a good explanation?
I think so :)
but it's up to the OP I guess
Originally I answered to deal with どことなく
I felt like there was not enough to support why どことなく had the meaning of "somehow"
So I decided to look into it a little more literally and derive the "somehow" meaning.
06:32
@Flaw, do you study Japanese at school?
06:49
No. But I intend to.
:)
How old are you?
07:05
I thought age was visible on profile pages
Ah, 20.
@Flaw I'm realizing how bad I am at reading comprehension...
or math
Haha don't worry about it, it's usually a temporary block
3分待たされたとしますと、待った人の感覚ではその3倍、9分ぐらい待たされた気がします。この時、待たせた方は実際が3分でも、その3分の1の1分ぐらいにしか感じないのです。
つまり待たせた人と待たされた人の時間感覚の差は(_)倍にもなるのです。
tell me the answer is 3 >_<
once you figure it out it's always "why couldn't I have done it before?"
07:09
yeah lol
I am confused!
I know! I think I've been tricked...
The actual time is 3 minutes spent waiting. The person that is made to wait feels like it has been 9 minutes. But the person that caused the other person to wait feels like it's only one third of the actual time, which is 1 minute. So the difference in the time it feels like between them is 8 minutes ?
correct answer is 9..
but I thought 倍 meant a multiple
07:12
@Flaw, how did you learn Japanese?!
@Shazer2. 自分で
In myself?
@Shazer2 Flaw knows Chinese apparently which helps.
"By"
Oh ok
Well, either way you had to learn vocab and structure..
How so?
07:15
Well, because I've had experience learning Chinese. I have no problems memorising new kanji
Also the concept of "counter words" was not new to me
Because of Chinese, I instinctively know the stroke order and approximate meanings of a given kanji.
So, structure and vocab?
I started with the basic particles like は が を に で から まで etc.
of course.. I think I have most of them.
Then I went on a memorisation exercise to get lots of vocabulary
は - subject marker, が - another subject marker?, を - not sure (use for actions?) に - directional, で - in, at, by etc, から - from, まで - not sure
07:19
After that it was reading grammar dictionaries and papers (in English) about Japanese grammar and structure.
@ChrisHarris I GOT IT
@Flaw you are right, the 差 is 8 minutes. but it is 9倍 I understand!
以心伝心
I did not see the word 倍
I was focusing on 差 instead of 倍
yeah, and I wasn't thinking mathematically..
07:21
1 and 9, 差 = 8, 9は1の9倍
thanks for the help :)
@Shazer2 は - topic/disambiguation , が - subject , を - direct object, に - dative, で - locative/instrumental , から - from , まで - up to
@Shazer2. Think of に as a point. Think of から as a half-line going outwards. Think of まで as a half-line that terminates.
Hmm, I find it hard to distinguish between は and が
Everyone does haha
Do you play any strategy games like starcraft ?
I can try to explain は and が with an analogy
No, I don't..
I don't really play games
07:29
My analogy will probably confuse you if you don't understand what "fog of war" is
No idea
The author has done an excellent job explaining the differences between は and が
I can't get it :P
See if you can help?
I can try explaining it to you
By the way, is English your primary language?
Yes, it is. :)
I'm Australian.
オーストラリアから
07:33
Excellent
Yes. :P
good night, I think I'm done studying today.
Alright, good night Chris. おやすみ
おやすみ
おやすみ!
07:34
@Shazer2 First I have to put up a disclaimer
That the following is going to include partly my own feelings and may not be entirely correct
Curious, is it grammatically correct to say "オーストラリアから"? Or well, what single verb would be attached to maybe make it correct? います? です?
@gibbon how about 来る ?
I don't know, I'm asking. :) Wouldn't this apply that you've come to some place though?
And not just that you're from a place.
@Shazer2 (My opinion) Always consider は as a disambiguative particle. It selects the thing to remove ambiguity, so that you are only talking about that thing, and nothing else. This is the master role of は
@gibbon I think it's a redundant implication. We are always at some place because we come from a previous place.
Hmm..
An example
07:41
@Flaw alright
From which the thematic は, anaphoric は and contrastive は is derived
Consider わたしはShazer2です
The discussion is limited to "わたし" or "me", this means that succeeding phrases will only apply within the range delimited by は
And an example of ga
Shazer2です = is Shazer2, so this translates into (The things we are talking about is me), is Shazer2 = I am Shazer2
が is a lot harder to explain because of "things that work like verbs but are not syntactically verbs"
If not for this class of words, which would be called "transitive nominal adjectives" and also "transitive adjectives", が would be a lot easier to handle
I'm going to try to explain が. It has 3 roles, (1)- Neutral description when used with stative verbals. (2) Subject marker. (3) Exhaustive description (this will be constrasted with は).
Alright!
For (1), we see sentences like わたしはねこがすきです = I like cats. "Like" is a verb in English. But it is "すき" in Japanese, which is a noun
For stative-type sentences, (as in above, you state that you like cats), が is used for the "object"
Some other sentences are Xがわかる = "I understand X". (It is stating something)
for (2), it is very straightforward. It marks the subject of the sentence. This use requires little explanation.
Aが Bを ぶつ = A hits B. (A = Subject, hits = Verb, B = Object)
nothing particularly remarkable about this type of sentence
All your typical Subject-Object-Verb type of sentence falls within (2)
07:55
Hmm ok
In (3) it gets a little complicated.
Suppose a question is asked "Who understands Japanese?"
I don't even know how to say that.. :/
日本語がわかる?
だれに日本語がわかるか
If you respond with 私が分かる, you are implying an exhaustive description
means that you, and only you understand. If there was someone else in the room with you that understands, your statement is now a lie.
If you respond with 私は分かる, you are only saying that the statement applies to you, and there might be others outside the scope delimited by は
So even if there are others around you that understand, your statement is not a lie.
08:01
Ohhh ok
This ties up with は being a disambiguating particle
(I hope you're not confused by me)
A little. :P
So basically if I'm talking about me STRICTLY, I use が (私はねこがすきです) basically means that I like cats and me only
Is that right, @Flaw?
@Flaw Why not だれが in your question above? Why に?
Sorry btw if it seems that I'm trying to pick your sentences apart, I'm of course just trying to get an accurate understanding myself.
08:16
the way I understand it is it makes it a passive sentence here, e.g. "だれ 日本語がわかるか" = "Japanese is understood by whom?"
I could be wrong though
Huh.. I just recently learned this passive business and it gave me a massive headache. I didn't know you could have passive sentences without passive conjugation of verbs. (I know very little of how English grammar actually works as well)
I have no idea how English works, I'm just fluent
@Shazer2 No that falls within the neutral description use of が. And the scope of discussion is delimited to you. It does not say anything about the people that is not you.
@gibbon I purposely used だれに because if not there would be 2 がs in the sentence, which would be a little confusing.
Alright, so if I wanted to bring the scope to me exclusively
could I do, 私がねこがすきです。
You cannot. It will sound really weird because it seems to beg a previous context.
08:28
Hmm, so how can I make that statement exclusive to me?
It will sound as if someone asked the question of 誰がねこがすきですか beforehand.
So, if I was with 10 friends and I said that I like cats
but I only wanted it to be that JUST I liked cats
Nobody else, how is that achieved?
by using だけ
Hmm..
example
私だけ = only me
08:31
ok
私だけねこがすきです。
@Flaw I figured that would be the reason, I know that used to confuse me a lot.. But particularly after cypher's comment I got extra interesting in knowing why に works.. :) It's as he suggested that it becomes a passive sentence?
だれに日本語が分かられるか would be wrong?
(><) I don't really know, but I think you usually don't say the potential/passive for わかる as わかれる
13
Q: Why doesn't 分かる have a potential form?

sawaThis question may be related to What does で分かる mean? (Cf. Tsuyoshi Ito and my comments to my answer). (Regular) verbs can be turned into the potential form by attaching -((ra)r)e-: tabe-ru vs. tabe-(ra)re-ru kak-u vs. kak-e-ru However, the verb 分かる cannot. Why is that? wakar-u * wa...

cool, thanks
thanks thanks
08:33
I'm not sure of the difference between が and に in that case either.
@Flaw, so was I right?
私だけねこがすきです。
Sounds right
Awesome :)
I get it now.
So we always use だけ?
In that situation
Not really. It's used to say "only X"
But usually even in English we don't make absolute statements all the time using "only"
Yeah it's rare
08:35
Unless you're absolutely confident that your information did not leave any doubt
Like, for example..
At school, the area I sit in, I am the only one who understands "little" Japanese
 
4 hours later…
12:31
YAY MATHS IS DONE :D
 
2 hours later…
14:23
In Japan, what happens when someone is late for work?
Hmm... apologize?
oh, is that all that happens?
If you're paid by the hour, your salary will be cut.
I guess depending on (1) how late, (2) how frequent lateness happens, and (3) how nice the boss is.
I see
my coworker was late this morning, and no one says anything..
so I wondered how Japan would handle it :P
14:27
How strict is the environment?
Yeah~ maybe you'll be fired if you're always late...
I'd say it depends on the prevalent work culture there. If for some reason everyone developed a high tolerance for lateness, then nothing would happen.
Alternatively, see : Somebody Else's Problem
I think we are supposed to call the office and tell your boss that your train is late or you've overslept etc
I doubt coworkers would snitch on each other over trivial issues.
Oh interesting..
14:34
@Chris Apparently there are 4 Chrises in JLU.
Oh really? ww
@Flaw (@o@)/
I tried to do a @user, then I realised it prompted a "ChrisHarris", so I went to the user page to check
I should choose a different name..
@Flaw looks like there are more than 4..I found at least 8.
I am mildly irritated now. I had a train of thought, then lost it because I have 4 ongoing conversations including this one.
And the train of thought was pertaining to this one.
14:51
I don't think I could have 4 ongoing conversations at once. I wouldn't get anything done.
Neither can I. But the person who is bothering me won't take a hint.
My laptop would crash if I did that.
Ah! You're just "Chris" now
I have a total of 8 pending tasks inclusive of the 4 conversations. I am about to overload and trip a fuse.
Flaw, you have 4 people bothering you? Popular.
(It's none of you guys, it's my brother in the same room as me who won't stop asking questions that he could solve on his own)
14:56
^^
One of those tasks is something along the line of "eat chocolate that I kept in the fridge a couple of hours ago"
I can't remember what else I'm supposed to do except that there are 3 more tasks not including the conversations.
Chocolate in the fridge. drools
just showed up late for work
@jkerian you too?
yeah... it's not quite a definite for me, since we don't really have an official start time
15:01
I see
so you can't really be late haha
(and I always show up late on monday... since they keep me until at least 20:00)
I think if I show up late, someone will yell at me (because things won't get done).
! I remembered my train of thought
It was about the whole being late issue. And I wanted to give my 2 cents worth before it got interrupted and lost.
We really need to subdivide tasks around here somewhat... everything takes a few days to get done
15:12
@Chris on your "late issue" I wanted to say that my previous workplace had a standard practice
We had to call in to declare late or sick between 0730 and 0745
As long as we did that, we were "safe"
I've only worked at one place that really cared if I was late
When I was teaching...
@jkerian if you're teaching, being late is probably not the best idea
@Flaw that is close to what the policy is at my workplace
Then depending on how nice/lenient/evil your boss is, the consequences vary.
Can "emotional" be added to that list?
15:30
Pms? Haha
stays FAR away from that
My boss doesn't really notice if I'm late... I'm pretty sure my boss didn't notice that I didn't show up for a week, and didn't deduct my vacation days like he said he was going to.
wwwまじ
(I seem to have about 40 extra hours of vacation, compared to what I think I should have)
no.way.
We're a bit of an odd company
Deeply technical... with non-technical managers
My team lead and mentor knew, of course... but they don't have anything to do with the vacation system
15:45
How technical? I guess sometimes it just matters if you can get the job done or not.
I'm a firmware engineer here: ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/HGST
My favorite interview question is "Have you understood every single xkcd comic?"
We like to print xkcd articles out at work and post them in various areas.
The point of the above is that we do require a pretty strong background in math, physics and programming.
If you are a firmware engineer for HGST, does most of you work revolve around C?
C++, primarily... although we have a handful of custom compilers (one of which, I maintain)
We have three in-house programming languages that I work with daily
My current task actually involves rewriting the one I maintain... been arguing with boost::spirit for the last few days
15:59
Although I've done embedded work, I don't know about those libraries. Probably because I'm still in college.
hmm? boost is primarily a C++ thing. If you start working with the language seriously, you'll find it plugs alot of the holes.
tuples, smart pointers, delayed execution functions, etc...
boost::spirit is a hideous abuse of operator overloading, made to work so that you can write C++ code that looks vaguely like a language specification... and have that actually be your parser
Interruption: I need some help with this question : 伝えた通りですとあるが、いつどのようにつたえたか。
とある stopped my understanding of the entire thing
@jkerian please tell me you have nothing to do with the WDTV Live thing.
@jkerian: What is a smart pointer?
I'm going to look it up
@gibbon the hell is that?
16:06
@jkerian, good, good.. :) I just looked at your link and saw "Western Digital", and you're a firmware developer, and I don't know how many times I've raged over how terrible that product's firmware is.
Note, I work for HGST... which as of now is operating as a wholly owned subsidiary of WD
..it's a little box that let's you play media shared over the network, through samba or other weird protocols.
Excuse my English today, I don't know what's wrong with me.
@ChrisHarris Alot of the stuff that made it into the new C++ standard was "beta-tested" in boost first, since several members of the C++ committee are core members of the boost project
(you can go all "chicken&egg" on which matters more)
@Flaw If I'm reading this correctly that just has a meaning connected to "there exists..."
@jkerian. So it is simply ある ?
I'm having a hard time distinguishing it from ~がある
likewise
Ask it
16:21
@jkerian this.is.cool. I had no idea.
That's going to be one of my less developed questions.
I have no idea how to introduce any standard of comparison because I have none whatsoever.
@ChrisHarris BTW, if you ever go to programming competitions... study the stdlib and boost. It is amazing how many points you can get in those things, just knowing those two.
stdlib: okay, boost: gonna have to try it out
(most teams waste entirely too much time on IO or basic transformations... which the libraries will do for you)
Yeah I remember having to rewrite some of those functions in order to do them in C ><
especially atoi
stupid LCD displays..
16:26
heh... I wrote some of the code in the canonical version of that function
_vfscanf, I think it's called... in glibc
oh wow!
C IO parsing is really... really ugly under the covers
When I was in grad school, our ACM club used to have no membership fees... since we would use the prize money from a local company's programming competition. Officially the $3k for 1st place went to the department, but the department always used to give it to the club (who would setup the competition and make sure we had students properly prepped to win).
16:40
Anyone know if it's possible to search with wildcard on alc.co.jp ?
I tried to generate *とある results but I don't think it can search with wildcards. Anyone else managed to?
not exactly but maybe..
if you search just とある you can get the same thing Flaw. What exactly are you looking for?
I'm not exactly sure myself. My mind is in a small mess. I want とある to be preceded by stuff. But I also want to limit the stuff but I think that's beyond what the site can do.
Flaw, that site automatically puts the wildcards for you (sort of)
This is the the only sentence I found that is probably related to my search of what とある does. "その違いはいろいろとあるが、一番の特徴は、プレーヤーたちが優勝劣敗という結果を自分の責任において引き受けなくて済むように工夫を凝らしている点にある。"
Also, a large majority of とある is used with 「」. I.e. 「・・・」とある
16:50
Is ~とある = to exist as ~ ?
I'm forcing the "quotation" use of と
Flaw, doesn't your sentence roughly translate as "It was conveyed exactly, yet how and when?"
I believe it means "It happens to be (this)"
I think が in my sentence is just a disjunctive without being concessive
as in "this happens to be the case"
the が
signifies "yet, however, but" etc
It can also not be "yet, however, but"
It can simply break the two parts up without contrasting
The いろいろと in その違いはいろいろとあるが is いろいろ, たくさん
16:54
4
Q: When is disjunctive-が appropriate in connecting sentences?

FlawConsider the following: [1] 僕は日本人ではなく, シンガポール人です。 (I'm not Japanese, I'm Singaporean) [2] 僕は日本人ではないが, シンガポール人です。 (I'm not Japanese but Singaporean) Comparing my sentences to the worked examples in my grammar practice workbook, [1] would be correct while [2] would be wrong. (Question) ...

I thought the が as in "とあるが” is the same as the が in ”だが”
Yes it is the same, but it does not always have to introduce a contrast
for example?
@Chocolate. 助けて~
@Chris Quoting sawa, "Actually, even when P and Q do not work in the opposite direction, you can use PがQ as long as P is providing a new topic into the discourse.

彼は試験に受かったが、これは普段からの努力の賜物だ。
'He passed the examination, and that is due to his consistent effort.'"
@Flaw: Thanks, yet I still see a contrast for some reason (but that is beside the point and not important now)
17:00
I think I need to provide more context into my problem now
Extracted from a passage:
[レポートについて] 内容については、今学期の1週目に渡したプリントで伝えた通りです。
Question:
伝えた通りですとあるが、いつどのようにつたえたか。
「伝えた通りです」と(書いて/書かれて)あるが、~~?
isn't it just like だっと?
Oh? 「書いて」という部分は省略していたですか
岩波国語辞典 states が can be used as 順説 as well as 逆接
順説って?
17:06
「~~と、ある」は、よく、「書いてあること」に、使う表現なので。
順接=and , therefore, so...
順接
逆接=but, however, though...
誤植かっw
Refers to a conjunction that the result is due to the preceding part
えへへ
17:09
I see, now I understand what you meant Flaw
:)
thanks @Chocolate
えっ、解決したの?(・。・)
The first time I was exposed to が being able to be both 順接 and 逆接 I was confused for a good long time haha.
context なんですね
I have a really hard time with "language". Understanding grammar or what particles are and such.
@Chocolate So it is because it is 書いてある so frequently, it becomes common understanding and is removed to simplify the sentence?
17:15
「~~と、ある」は、もともと、「ある(在る)」だと思います。
文字が、そこに、「在る」
存在を表すという意味ですか
岩波states,
(This is really challenging for me >_<)
「(引用の「と」または、それに当たる表現を受けて)(・・・という言葉が)ある。書いてある。」
「(例)遺書にはこうあった。」
I think I need an English translation for that.
17:21
with a quoting 「と」、or an equivalent,
There is... (words such as~~)/ (words such as ~~) are written.
e.g.: The will said:...
In the will was written~~
I think I understand now
So, 伝えた通りですとあるが、いつどのようにつたえたか would be "It is written 「伝えたとおりです」, when and how was it communicated?"
I think I understand why it is just とある. I think it is because the information can be in other forms too?
と(言って)ある is also possible?
I'd say と言っている, or と書いてある
いるvsある
17:42
I have to go sleep now. @Chocolate Thanks for all your help again~
Don't mention, my pleasure. good night
02:00 - 18:0022:00 - 00:00

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