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02:00 - 16:0016:00 - 00:00

Anonymous
2:47 AM
The semantic leap from modifiers expressing truth to modifiers with an intensifying meaning is interesting
 
Anonymous
In English, we have for example really and very and truly
 
Anonymous
All of which mean "to a great extent"
 
Anonymous
But all of which originally meant something like "in truth; in reality"
 
Anonymous
There are more members of that class in English, of course, some newer than others
 
Anonymous
Literally has only gotten its intensifier meaning in the last 150 years
 
2:48 AM
That is pretty interesting.
 
Anonymous
Real is an intensifier in informal (nonstandard) speech: "real good"
 
Anonymous
I find it interesting that 本当に and 実に are listed as 副詞 in dictionaries
 
Anonymous
You'd think they could just be the 形容動詞の連用形
 
Anonymous
So, listed under 本当 and 実
 
Anonymous
Not all dictionaries list them separately, but most that I checked do
 
2:49 AM
Probably due to the semantic divergence from the 形容動詞.
The alternative would having a line under 本当 specifically for 本当に, no?
 
Anonymous
広辞苑 gives 程度の甚だしいさま。 as a meaning for 本当に
 
Anonymous
Whereas in 日国 it's just considered sense 3 of 本当
 
Anonymous
広辞苑 gives sense 2 of 実に as 全く。非常に。
 
Anonymous
(Where sense one is うたがいなく。ほんとうに。まことに。げに。)
 
Anonymous
I'm actually not familiar with 実{げ}に
 
2:54 AM
Hmm, I guess it's true that the intensifier meaning does work when it's adnominal too: 本当のバカ or whatever. Feels just like "real idiot" in English in fact.
 
Anonymous
It's true cross-linguistically. 本当に, truly, vraiment, veramente, realmente
 
Hmm, in Farsi I don't think خیلی has a root anything like that.
But I also don't know how to look up etymology for words in Farsi...
 
Anonymous
3:13 AM
I don't see it here: archive.org/details/…
 
Anonymous
خیلی is literally just "many"?
 
Anonymous
Meaning great extent (both count and non-count)
 
Hmm... I think it's non-count. But my Farsi is god-awful. :)
 
Anonymous
3:35 AM
About 〜とおり・〜どおり
 
Anonymous
I was thinking the difference might trace back to prenasalization from の
 
Anonymous
Rendaku is thought to trace back etymologically to reduced particles like の or に becoming ん and then coalescing into a voiced version of the following consonant
 
Anonymous
As in にて>んて>で
 
Anonymous
So, 言ったとおり but 予定のとおり→どおり
 
Anonymous
思ったとおり
​ 思いどおり ← 「思いのとおり」から転じたかな
 
3:42 AM
Makes sense.
 
4:02 AM
I was having an infuriating time the other day--
a girl who speaks Japanese was trying to tell me how to say "no" in Japanese.
She would say it (sounded like "dameh") and I would repeat back exactly what I heard
no matter how many times we went back and forth, every single time she told me i had it completely wrong
is there a trick to this or something??
 
Anonymous
Can you do a recording?
 
Anonymous
I don't know which languages you already speak
 
Anonymous
English doesn't have a vowel exactly like Japanese /e/
 
Anonymous
But there's a vowel pretty similar to /e/ in lots of languages that should be close enough
 
English and French....few words of Mandarin :)
let's see
give me a sex
2
sec*****
 
Anonymous
4:05 AM
Since Japanese has so few vowels, each vowel has a fairly wide space in the spectrum
 
I pronounce dame as daaaaawmeh sometimes if I'm trying to be funny.
 
there is my (apparently TOTALLY wrong) pronunciation
 
I wouldn't go as far as calling that totally wrong...
 
haha
 
But I'm also not a native Japanese speaker :)
 
4:07 AM
snailboat are you a native speaker?
 
Anonymous
I am not a native speaker of Japanese
 
Anonymous
My only native language is English
 
(Is it possible to be a native speaker of nothing?)
 
Anonymous
@DariusJahandarie Yes
 
4:11 AM
maybe i can just ignore dame and use iie instead.
 
Anonymous
@Aerovistae In your recording I hear a mid-open vowel
 
that's a good starting plan, yes.
 
@Aerovistae They are used in fairly different contexts.
 
oh...
 
Anonymous
Whereas in Japanese, it's just a regular mid vowel
 
4:12 AM
would this make a good question for the forum?
 
Anonymous
But there's relatively little chance of mishearing a mid-open vowel
 
Anonymous
So I don't think it should interfere with comprehension
 
i don't know the difference between mid and mid-open
 
Anonymous
If you go here
 
Anonymous
4:13 AM
See at the left side of the vowel chart
 
Anonymous
Where e and ɛ are
 
Anonymous
In English we don't distinguish between e and ɛ
 
Anonymous
(Although we use both)
 
Anonymous
Japanese e is halfway in between those
 
Anonymous
 
Anonymous
4:14 AM
That's a Japanese vowel chart
 
wow that's a complicated page
 
you must be into linguistics
 
Anonymous
Here you can hear recordings
 
:.(
sounds like "damet"
 
Anonymous
4:16 AM
If you click ɛ on the IPA chart and compare it to the recording on Forvo
 
Anonymous
Oh, there's a reason for that
 
Anonymous
Umm
 
Anonymous
Say "Uh oh"
 
(brb)
 
Anonymous
The sound in the middle of "Uh oh" is called a glottal stop.
 
Anonymous
4:16 AM
It's called that because you stop the airflow in the glottis (your vocal cords, basically in the throat)
 
Anonymous
In American English, the glottal stop is an allophone of syllable-final /t/, so
 
Anonymous
When you say "Batman" in normal speech (not in careful speech), you probably actually say a glottal stop rather than a [t] sound
 
Wow. Nice off-the-cuff explanation of that.
 
Anonymous
That means, as a speaker of AmE, you're training yourself to hear a /t/ when you hear a glottal stop in final position, even though it's not technically a [t] sound
 
Anonymous
Meanwhile in Japanese, it's common to end utterances (especially emphatic utterances) with a glottal stop
 
Anonymous
4:18 AM
But it's not a /t/ in Japanese
 
I wish I had some sort of reward to give you for doing that impromptu.
 
Anonymous
Hehe, thanks :-)
 
wow, that made a lot of sense
great explanation
i understand
still not sure i can reproduce it correctly
 
Anonymous
4:33 AM
As for the vowel
 
Anonymous
If you look at that chart, you'll see
 
Anonymous
Along the left side, from top to bottom
 
Anonymous
i
e
ɛ
a
 
Anonymous
The chart probably doesn't make any sense to you yet
 
Anonymous
But if you click those one at a time... and try making the sounds you hear
 
Anonymous
4:34 AM
You'll notice that at the top of the chart, your tongue is pretty high up in your mouth
 
Anonymous
And at the bottom of the chart, your tongue is lower
 
Anonymous
Your tongue moves into different spots in your mouth, and that changes the airflow and produces a different type of vowel
 
Anonymous
If you try saying all those 4 sounds on the chart, you should be able to sort of figure out how to move your tongue up and down to make different vowels
 
Anonymous
And then you should be able to pronounce one halfway between [e] and [ɛ]
 
Anonymous
That is, pretty much in the middle
 
Anonymous
4:38 AM
And that's the basic Japanese /e/ sound :-) Of course, in real life, people don't pronounce vowels exactly the same way every time
 
Anonymous
And in Japanese, there are no other vowels with similar sounds
 
Anonymous
So if you pronounce it a little differently, it's probably okay.
 
Anonymous
The chart I showed you above is just an average tongue position for each vowel
 
6:35 AM
TIL I can use "dhi" to type ディ
 
Anonymous
Yes! :-)
 
Anonymous
And thi for ティ
 
I used to type dexi
 
Anonymous
Me too!
 
Anonymous
I actually learned a lot of the shortcuts from looking at the input on OS X, although it's not 100% the same as other input methods
 
6:36 AM
I found Microsoft IME's romaji-kana conversion chart
 
Anonymous
But it has a little guide
 
Anonymous
Yeah! Guides! Yippee!
 
Anonymous
I like wyi for ゐ
 
It was somewhere in the menu
 
Anonymous
Oh, you know what took me forever to learn?
 
Anonymous
6:38 AM
Typing n' instead of nn for ん
 
Anonymous
こんな as kon'na is a lot easier to type fast than konnna
 
yeah
nnn is not that easy
I learned touch-typing a while ago
pretty sweet
 
Anonymous
Yay!
 
mostly because i finally get to use the right Shift key haha
 
Anonymous
I use the right shift key, too!
 
Anonymous
6:42 AM
I use both shift keys.
 
Anonymous
There are a lot of people out there who only use one or the other, you know.
 
Well if you touch-type you have to use both
 
Anonymous
That's not true
 
Anonymous
Touch typing is just typing without looking at the keyboard
 
Anonymous
That is, typing by touch
 
Anonymous
6:42 AM
There's no specific way to do it
 
Oh, I thought there's like a somewhat standard way
 
Anonymous
Well, there's the home row method
 
Of placing finger
 
Anonymous
It's a lot better than hunting and pecking!
 
Oh yeah, that's probably it
 
Anonymous
6:43 AM
Probably not ideal, but it's pretty good.
 
Oh yeah, another perk: you can type in the dark haha
 
Anonymous
Yeah!
 
Without the distract keyboard backlighting
 
Anonymous
Actually, the "home row" method of typing is why they made the split-key "ergonomic" keyboards
 
Anonymous
Because if you typing with your fingers on the home rows all the time
 
Anonymous
6:44 AM
That means your wrists aren't going to be straight normally
 
Anonymous
So if you're a really good home row typer, it might be worth looking into a split keyboard
 
Anonymous
Me, I'm a touch typist, but I have my own way of doing it that keeps my wrists straight
 
Anonymous
And my hands move around as I type, so I don't always stay in one position
 
Anonymous
Unfortunately, Stack Exchange is always telling me to stop typing so much :-(
 
Anonymous
6:45 AM
"Please try again in N seconds, blah blah blah :-("
 
That said, the split keyboard looks pretty cool
True
You can type a loooong paragraph though, no?
 
Anonymous
But I can type relatively quickly when Stack Exchange allows me to.
 
Anonymous
Well, you can. But it feels kind of unnatural in chatting
 
Anonymous
I learned to type when I was little, around the same time I learned to read and write
 
Anonymous
6:46 AM
So it's just a basic skill for me
 
Anonymous
Uh-huh?
 
I learned touch-typing a few months ago
 
Anonymous
My parents are programmers.
 
Supercool
 
Anonymous
6:46 AM
@3to5businessdays Yay!
 
Anonymous
Stack Exchange just made me wait seven seconds to say "Yay!" :-(
 
Anonymous
Do I program? Yes, I'm a programmer
 
It's all in the family
 
Anonymous
My brother is too
 
6:48 AM
What language?
* languages
 
Anonymous
Um, I dunno.
 
I mean you, haha
 
Anonymous
A bunch? :-)
 
得意な語言
 
Anonymous
I'm too lazy to type up a list
 
Anonymous
6:49 AM
I've mostly been paid for perl and C++
 
You do the others for free? haha
 
Anonymous
Well, programming is just something you do any time you have a problem to solve on a computer
 
Anonymous
I would say most of the programming I've done in my life has not been for money
 
Anonymous
Just because it's something I'm always doing
 
Anonymous
And because I didn't start programming professionally until I was a teenager
 
6:51 AM
You started programming professionally when you were a teenager!?
 
Anonymous
Yes
 
Anonymous
When I was 17
 
Still pretty early to me
 
Anonymous
It was easy to get a job back then because of the whole Dot Com boom thing
 
You did have programmer parents though
 
Anonymous
6:52 AM
People were hiring like crazy :-)
 
You work in a company, or do you work freelance?
 
Anonymous
At the moment, I am not working for a company
 
Anonymous
I do have a project going, but I've been putting a lot of time into Japanese . . . :-)
 
Anonymous
I've done several things freelance recently
 
Anonymous
The project I'm doing isn't really for money, although it will make some money, just for fun :-)
 
Anonymous
6:56 AM
If I wanted money, it'd be much more cost-effective for me to go get a Real Job™ again
 
Anonymous
But I have the opportunity to spend some time focusing on learning and language stuff and not worry too much about things, so I'm taking that opportunity
 
Anonymous
It's kind of fun! For a long time, I was working so much that I really didn't end up making a lot of progress on Japanese
 
Anonymous
I've been learning Japanese for 17 years, you know
 
Anonymous
And I never really stopped, but a lot of the time I just didn't have much time to devote to it
 
Holy shitsnacks
17 years and you haven't taken JLPT? :p
 
Anonymous
6:58 AM
Well, that was never a goal of mine
 
Anonymous
But my friends are trying to make me :-)
 
Anonymous
But yeah, I should probably be a lot better at Japanese than I am after all this time . . . :-)
 
Not like a goal or anything... It's just something you do on the way when learning Japanese
 
Anonymous
Oh, I know, but it never sounded very fun
 
Exams never are
 
Anonymous
7:00 AM
Besides
 
Anonymous
It's one thing to be bad at Japanese . . . it's another thing to get a piece of paper saying you're bad at it! :-)
 
Anonymous
It's a little scary that way!
 
Anonymous
I guess I'll take it this year
 
Anonymous
How about you? Are you taking it?
 
Eh, I pretty much started only for a few months
 
Anonymous
7:02 AM
Ah! You've only been learning for a few months? :-)
 
don't quite remember exactly how long though
6 months, give or take
say, you don't call 補助動詞 "auxiliary verbs"?
subsidiary verbs, huh?
 
Anonymous
Well, it's confusing.
 
Anonymous
助動詞 is usually glossed "auxiliary verb"
 
Yeah...
A mess
 
Anonymous
It comes from a translation of English "auxiliary verb" and it's used in Japanese to describe English auxiliary verbs
 
Anonymous
7:06 AM
But "auxiliary verb" isn't really a good label for those
 
Anonymous
I prefer just "auxiliary"
 
Anonymous
(Even that is probably not ideal, but because people are used to "auxiliary" I'll use that label, and leave off the inaccurate "verb" part)
 
Anonymous
So that leaves our choice of words for 補助動詞
 
Anonymous
"Subsidiary" is common enough and makes sense
 
Anonymous
And they actually are verbs, so "subsidiary verb" works
 
7:07 AM
I'll just use "hojodoushi" to confuse everybody
 
Anonymous
Sure, that works!
 
Anonymous
I usually just write them in kanji if I'm using the Japanese terms
 
Anonymous
Since I figure people are more used to seeing 助動詞 than zyodōsi or the like
 
Hmmm... hojyodooshi
haha
 
Anonymous
Side note: jyo isn't a valid sequence of Hepburn-style romanization or Kunrei-style
 
7:09 AM
I mean writing it romanized
 
Anonymous
Jo in Hepburn, zyo in Kunrei
 
Yes I'm gonna create my own romanization scheme muahaha
 
Anonymous
Jyo is a mixture, but you'll see native Japanese speakers use it often enough
 
Anonymous
Native Japanese speakers generally don't really care about differences in romanization schemes very much
 
Anonymous
7:10 AM
Of course, it's dangerous to generalize―some care very much :-)
 
They use kunrei though, don't they?
 
Anonymous
Native Japanese speakers use all sorts of romanization systems
 
Anonymous
Hepburn, Kunrei, wa-puro
 
Anonymous
Variants on the above
 
Anonymous
7:11 AM
I've seen different native speakers assert that different schemes are more common
 
Anonymous
I don't have any numbers
 
Anonymous
I know that I've seen all sorts used though
 
do they have IME scheme?
 
Anonymous
IME scheme?
 
hehe... ディ written as dhi
 
Anonymous
7:13 AM
Yeah, so, that's what I called "wa-puro" above
 
Anonymous
It's supposed to be an example of itself. You type wa-puro to get ワープロ
 
Anonymous
Word processor romanization.
 
Anonymous
Meaning basically input method romanization these days
 
7:14 AM
that dash is kinda cool... It feels like it also serves the purpose of separating the two English words
 
Anonymous
People do romanize things funny.
 
Anonymous
One of my least favorite bits of romanization is when people write long vowels with "ou" that generally aren't written that way in kana in the first place
 
Anonymous
Like "roumaji"
 
Anonymous
It's ローマ字, so why add a "u"...
 
it's easier than the hmm.... "dash above o" character
I always forget the name
 
Anonymous
7:15 AM
Yeah, that thingy's called a macron.
 
Anonymous
I added it to my input method. If I type おお and convert I get ō
 
Anonymous
Rōmazi!
 
macaroon
how do you feel about "roomaji"
 
Anonymous
It's fine. It represents the sound of the word.
 
Anonymous
It represents a long vowel with a doubled o rather than an o with a macron.
 
Anonymous
7:17 AM
Some linguists prefer oo to ō for various reasons.
 
It's easier to type, for one
 
Anonymous
Yeah! That's a big plus.
 
Anonymous
Another is that it indicates morae separately: ro.o.ma.ji
 
Anonymous
Four morae.
 
I like fōd
cōl
 
Anonymous
7:18 AM
Ha.
 
Anonymous
You just hurt my brain a li'l bit.
 
Anonymous
The thing is, the macron doesn't mean "this LETTER is doubled"
 
Anonymous
It means "this VOWEL (sound) is doubled"
 
Anonymous
Generally, romanization schemes aren't intended to correspond to kana, by the way.
 
same as length is doubled?
 
Anonymous
7:20 AM
Yeah, basically.
 
Anonymous
A lot of people don't like it when they don't correspond to kana.
 
Anonymous
So they get angry at "tookyoo" for 東京
 
Anonymous
Why not "toukyou", they ask
 
because seeing "tookyoo" tempts people to read it the English way
 
Anonymous
Well, if you're writing for someone who knows English and not Japanese
 
Anonymous
7:22 AM
You're probably going to spell is Tokyo and they're probably going to pronounce it like it's Tokio
 
Anonymous
Because English doesn't have a glide between /k/ and /o/ like that
 
Anonymous
So we hear the glide as though it's two separate sounds, /i/ and /o/
 
carry-o-keee
 
Anonymous
That one is a mystery for the ages. :-)
 
ke-rah-teee
 
Anonymous
7:23 AM
But if you're romanizing for someone who knows Japanese
 
Anonymous
They'll know not to pronounce human like English
 
Anonymous
@3to5businessdays Are you using a textbook, by the way?
 
7:41 AM
Sometimes articles written for non-scientists talk about earthquakes or volcanoes having the energy of X Hiroshima bombs. What do people in Japan, either speaking in English or Japanese, use as their unit of energy?
 
8:08 AM
nope
was replying to @snailboat, just in case
 
9:15 AM
91 answers? You work hard
@snailboat Seems like auxiliary verbs is the tag for 補助動詞... and 助動詞
 
Anonymous
9:38 AM
Yeah... It's probably not ideal
 
Anonymous
Our tags aren't great in general
 
particle-wa is good
although I've seen it used for わ
tagging is much easier on SO
 
 
2 hours later…
12:04 PM
why do people use inline code block for quoting?
 
 
3 hours later…
3:15 PM
my edit was rejected :(
 
Anonymous
3:37 PM
Unlike other SE sites, we use code for quotes and the use-mention distinction
 
Anonymous
Japanese is monospace to begin with
 
Anonymous
And italics are ugly with Japanese
 
Anonymous
For quotes, try Japanese quotes: 「日本語」
 
Anonymous
Code blocks are less appropriate for quoting English, though, generally speaking
 
Anonymous
Both "quotes" and italics are easier to read
 
Anonymous
3:42 PM
But you'll find that people on Japanese.SE don't have the instinctive aversion to code blocks people do elsewhere
 
I think that Japanese text doesn't really blend well with English anyway, so I usually don't use quotes (and no code blocks)...
 
Anonymous
I think code blocks used to look nice for quoting Japanese when the grey box had a wider margin
 
I don't like the font used for the code blocks (but that may just be on my computer)
we should request our own styling of "code", since we won't ever need code per se
but it'd be nice to have a "quote" environment
(you can tell I'm no programmer, I'm willing to abuse code blocks for typographical extravagance...)
Anyway, the font in the code blocks (on my computer) isn't monospace anyway, aligning doesn't work at all...
it only works on the Latin alphabet
 
Anonymous
Oh, right, the font isn't well chosen
 
Anonymous
But I believe cypher will have fixed that in the latest furigana script update :-)
 
Anonymous
3:53 PM
So we'll be able to make ad hoc tables!
 
but this doesn't have anything to do with furigana...
confused
 
Anonymous
Hehe.
 
Anonymous
This is true.
 
Anonymous
But it's the set of custom JS applied to our site alone
 
Anonymous
It should also fix the problem of some people getting Chinese fonts instead of Japanese on Chrome!
 
Anonymous
3:57 PM
I'm not very rigorous in how I pick things like quotes or italics
 
Anonymous
I try to be a little more principled about it on the English sites
 
Anonymous
Where I usually prefer "double quotes" for meaning, italics for the use-mention distinction, bold for emphasis
 
Anonymous
So I would have used double quotes in that question for the English, too . . .
 
Anonymous
And the Japanese would probably be fine without any special formatting
 
Anonymous
That's what I've been leaning toward lately
 
Anonymous
3:59 PM
5
A: Is there any difference in meaning between 陥る and 落ち入る?

snailboatAlthough it's etymologically a compound of 落{お}ち+入{い}る, it's now usually written 陥る instead. The NHK漢字表記辞典 recommends writing it 陥る and doesn't mention the other spelling at all. Some dictionaries list both spellings, as you point out; for example, 明鏡国語辞典 lists the word under 陥る but mentions t...

 
Anonymous
I think it looks kind of nice like that without code formatting
 
Anonymous
I used 「Japanese quotes」 once
 
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